Full Version: John McCain - Sellout?
Something has been bothering me. I, like many who post here on AD, admire John McCain. What I cannot understand is McCain’s sudden buddy-buddy camaraderie with Bush, the man who once used the dirtiest of dirty politics to discredit and dishonor McCain, his family, and his service to his country.
I admire McCain for many reasons; his surviving the horror of being a POW in Vietnam, his character, his willingness to run counter to the party line for things he believes in. But, lately, it seems that he has sold out – whether to preserve his status in the GOP or some other reason. Maybe it’s because politicians never really speak the truth, so that when one makes incredibly vile accusations and trashes your reputation, it doesn’t really matter 4 years down the road when you throw your support behind him. Every article’s wording insinuates McCain’s being brought along like Bush’s pet: “McCain tags along” or “Bush brings McCain”. It's really kind of sick-making. Maybe all of this sucking up is so that he can secure a position with Bush if he wins in November?
From the vociferous criticism of the Bush administration during the 9/11 Commission hearings, to criticism such as this in 2003:
...in 2000:
McCain now says this about Bush:
Our “love”?! Gads, instead of a campaign, it sounds like a trashy romance novel. There’s even a somehow creepy photo of Bush and McCain in an awkward, full-body hug. Yeesh.
In 2004:
So, Bush stands firmly behind the ad, McCain deplores it, but McCain continues to stump (enthusiastically!) for the president.
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
QUOTE
Finally, there's the granddaddy of them all: Bush's gutter job on Sen. John McCain in the South Carolina primary of 2000. Bush lost to McCain in New Hampshire and wasn't going to allow it to happen again. So the Bush team resorted to what are called "push polls." They're designed to plant seeds of doubt about candidates. In South Carolina, callers asked those they were polling questions like: Would you be more or less likely to vote for McCain if you knew he'd fathered a black child out of wedlock? Some had him fathering the child with a prostitute. Others inquired whether voters knew that McCain's wife was a drug addict. And did they know he had abandoned his crippled first wife? It was nasty, nasty stuff, and it caused McCain to lose his composure in public, which didn't help his cause at all. Source
QUOTE
Even worse is Bush's association with Ted Sampley, the absolutely loathsome former green beret and POW/MIA pimp who has claimed that John McCain is a traitor and even a communist spy that the Soviets had turned into a "Manchurian candidate". He's the same guy behind the attacks on John Kerry now, by the way. Source
I admire McCain for many reasons; his surviving the horror of being a POW in Vietnam, his character, his willingness to run counter to the party line for things he believes in. But, lately, it seems that he has sold out – whether to preserve his status in the GOP or some other reason. Maybe it’s because politicians never really speak the truth, so that when one makes incredibly vile accusations and trashes your reputation, it doesn’t really matter 4 years down the road when you throw your support behind him. Every article’s wording insinuates McCain’s being brought along like Bush’s pet: “McCain tags along” or “Bush brings McCain”. It's really kind of sick-making. Maybe all of this sucking up is so that he can secure a position with Bush if he wins in November?
From the vociferous criticism of the Bush administration during the 9/11 Commission hearings, to criticism such as this in 2003:
QUOTE
Sen. John McCain sharply criticized the Bush administration's conduct of the Iraq war Wednesday, saying the United States should send at least 15,000 more troops or risk "the most serious American defeat on the global stage since Vietnam." Source
...in 2000:
QUOTE
``We've already got somebody in the Oval Office who is not trustworthy, '' he said. He went even further in a new TV ad that says one of Bush's ads ``twists the truth like Clinton.'' Source
McCain now says this about Bush:
QUOTE
“He has led with great moral clarity and firm resolve he has not wavered he has not flinched from the hard choices and he has more than earned our support he has earned our admiration and our love.” Source
Our “love”?! Gads, instead of a campaign, it sounds like a trashy romance novel. There’s even a somehow creepy photo of Bush and McCain in an awkward, full-body hug. Yeesh.
In 2004:
QUOTE
Just last week, McCain condemned a campaign ad criticizing Democrat John Kerry's military record. He asked the president to condemn it as well. But Bush did not. For McCain, it was deja vu all over again.
"I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable," McCain said. "As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire."
McCain knows exactly how this kind of smear campaign works. After he beat Bush in New Hampshire in 2000, the contest moved to South Carolina and got ugly. It included a day when a group of veterans and activists attacked McCain's record on veterans and POW/MIA issues, with one of them calling McCain the POW "who came home and forgot us." According to news reports, Bush did not criticize McCain himself, but he stood alongside those who tossed out the accusations. Including a man who had criticized Bush's own father when he was president. Source
"I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable," McCain said. "As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire."
McCain knows exactly how this kind of smear campaign works. After he beat Bush in New Hampshire in 2000, the contest moved to South Carolina and got ugly. It included a day when a group of veterans and activists attacked McCain's record on veterans and POW/MIA issues, with one of them calling McCain the POW "who came home and forgot us." According to news reports, Bush did not criticize McCain himself, but he stood alongside those who tossed out the accusations. Including a man who had criticized Bush's own father when he was president. Source
So, Bush stands firmly behind the ad, McCain deplores it, but McCain continues to stump (enthusiastically!) for the president.
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
What kind of question is this? First i just want to say that i do not understand what you hope to accomplish by asking this question.
Next i'll answer it...NO, McCain is not a sell out. He is a Republican, and he is supporting his Republican nominee. Am i under the assumption that the Bush campaign is using McCain a little bit? Yes, i do. But McCain is a big man and he does what he feels is necessary.
Just because he doesnt agree with EVERYTHING the president does, that doesnt mean that he thinks Bush is any less or more capable of being a worthy president.
From your skewed point of view, you believe that because McCain criticized Bush and because he was not a strong partisan, than now he is "selling out." This is not the case at all. He is supporting his party's presidential nominee. I do not see a topic about any of the Democrats "selling out". This is hypocrisy at its finest.
If you want to go and discredit a great American Patriot and one of the few politicians who is out for the good of the country instead of selfish reasons...go ahead. I grow tiresome of all the debate on these boards that have no other purpose than to criticize and demonize the character of our leaders. Debate the issues and debate the policies. Military records, 420 seconds of time, being a "sell-out," has no purpose in the grand scheme of things and thus, there is no reason to discuss such petty and childish debates.
What kind of question is this? First i just want to say that i do not understand what you hope to accomplish by asking this question.
Next i'll answer it...NO, McCain is not a sell out. He is a Republican, and he is supporting his Republican nominee. Am i under the assumption that the Bush campaign is using McCain a little bit? Yes, i do. But McCain is a big man and he does what he feels is necessary.
Just because he doesnt agree with EVERYTHING the president does, that doesnt mean that he thinks Bush is any less or more capable of being a worthy president.
From your skewed point of view, you believe that because McCain criticized Bush and because he was not a strong partisan, than now he is "selling out." This is not the case at all. He is supporting his party's presidential nominee. I do not see a topic about any of the Democrats "selling out". This is hypocrisy at its finest.
If you want to go and discredit a great American Patriot and one of the few politicians who is out for the good of the country instead of selfish reasons...go ahead. I grow tiresome of all the debate on these boards that have no other purpose than to criticize and demonize the character of our leaders. Debate the issues and debate the policies. Military records, 420 seconds of time, being a "sell-out," has no purpose in the grand scheme of things and thus, there is no reason to discuss such petty and childish debates.
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
John McCain quite obviously believes President Bush to be the best choice for America in this campaign, just as he did in 2000 when he also campaigned for Bush in the general election. So, he's doing what anyone who is politically active and cares about his country would do - he's helping the person he believes to be the best candidate get elected. That's not 'selling out" anymore than any of Kerry's opponents in the Democratic primary are "selling out" by now supporting Kerry.
John McCain quite obviously believes President Bush to be the best choice for America in this campaign, just as he did in 2000 when he also campaigned for Bush in the general election. So, he's doing what anyone who is politically active and cares about his country would do - he's helping the person he believes to be the best candidate get elected. That's not 'selling out" anymore than any of Kerry's opponents in the Democratic primary are "selling out" by now supporting Kerry.
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Aug 11 2004, 11:59 AM)
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
QUOTE
Sold out? To who?
John McCain is a Republican. He's a maverick and a very independent one, but at the end of the day, he's going to remain a Republican. If he wanted to be a Democrat he'd switch. He doesn't and he hasn't.
McCain was a officer in the military and in the military you learn to "respect the office, if not the man holding the office." Sure, McCain hasn't forgotten how Bush slimed him in 2000. But he respects the fact that Bush is president and while he probably won't cry in his beer should his friend John Kerry win, he will do his job as a good Republican to try and reelect Gee Dubya. Whether or not is heart is really in it, I wouldn't try to hazard a guess.
I don't know if McCain is holding out for 2008, but if he is, he isn't going to run as an independent or a Democrat. He's going to run as a Republican and carrying the water for Bush now, may enable him to win the GOP nomination in 2008 when there is no Republican incumbent to challenge him.
I'm willing to bet that McCain recalls what John Kennedy once said, "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." That and what B.B. King cautioned to "Never make your move too soon."
McCain enjoys a reputation as a maverick and a rogue. Many liberals have been sold on his 'independent' image. But take a look at his voting record. He is not the most moderate Republican. He is a good little Republican, who tends to vote with his party.
After the way he was treated by the Bush campaign in 2000, the fact that he hugs up to the president now shows just how much a politician he really is. To me this is another example of how far politics is removed from real life. In real life this turn-around would be seen as cowardice or capitulation; in politics it is prudence.
After the way he was treated by the Bush campaign in 2000, the fact that he hugs up to the president now shows just how much a politician he really is. To me this is another example of how far politics is removed from real life. In real life this turn-around would be seen as cowardice or capitulation; in politics it is prudence.
I grow tiresome of all the debate on these boards that have no other purpose than to criticize and demonize the character of our leaders. Debate the issues and debate the policies. Military records, 420 seconds of time, being a "sell-out," has no purpose in the grand scheme of things and thus, there is no reason to discuss such petty and childish debates.
cant separate the person from the policy Bub. They go hand in hand.
McCain, though I favor him strongly is still a politician. He does what he has to do to get re elected and he bides his time. Anyone who thinks he has forgiven and forgotten what Bush did is a fool. His time will come.
Hell he still takes pot shots just to make the repblicans twich, which I find hysterical.
McCain is very popular to many people across the spectrum which is why the Repubs have actively sought out the support of a man they often insinuate as a traitor to the Republican Manifesto.
The Republicans NEED to win the moderates. So McCain is probably getting a good deal for his "enthusiastic" support.
Now I grow tiresome of all this and am going to sulk the corner with some Rocky road. Everybody is SO mean
cant separate the person from the policy Bub. They go hand in hand.McCain, though I favor him strongly is still a politician. He does what he has to do to get re elected and he bides his time. Anyone who thinks he has forgiven and forgotten what Bush did is a fool. His time will come.
Hell he still takes pot shots just to make the repblicans twich, which I find hysterical.
McCain is very popular to many people across the spectrum which is why the Repubs have actively sought out the support of a man they often insinuate as a traitor to the Republican Manifesto.
The Republicans NEED to win the moderates. So McCain is probably getting a good deal for his "enthusiastic" support.
Now I grow tiresome of all this and am going to sulk the corner with some Rocky road. Everybody is SO mean
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
Selling out because you'd rather he act differently? This is vintage McCain. The galvanization doesn't stop with Republicans that will rib McCain for opening his mouth when they think he should shut it. True to his word he buried the hatchet in 2000 and hasn't looked back since. McCain hasn't, from what I've picked up on him in the news, cared for what others want him to do, or expect him to do.
At the end of the day he wants what he believes is best for the nation through his party. This cuts both ways—it's not about betrayal. McCain belongs to an opposing ideology. He's not in the business of dispensing political charity.
Selling out because you'd rather he act differently? This is vintage McCain. The galvanization doesn't stop with Republicans that will rib McCain for opening his mouth when they think he should shut it. True to his word he buried the hatchet in 2000 and hasn't looked back since. McCain hasn't, from what I've picked up on him in the news, cared for what others want him to do, or expect him to do.
At the end of the day he wants what he believes is best for the nation through his party. This cuts both ways—it's not about betrayal. McCain belongs to an opposing ideology. He's not in the business of dispensing political charity.
Well, damn, I didn't think I'd generate such venom just by posing a question. I'm not the only one, btw. I was surprised by how many sources were speculating about the same thing. Would everyone have felt better if I had framed it differently (heck, at least I put quotes around the term "sell out")? It's a legitimate question, imo.
The two men (Bush/McCain) disagree on so many issues, yet when push comes to shove, it's party togetherness all the way. OK, I guess that's not selling out your ideals and ideas, that's just politics.
As for those who feel it's "tiresome", "petty" and "childish", all I can say to you is that you didn't have to respond, especially in such a nasty manner. Speaking of tiresome, petty and childish...
I can ask the administrators to close the topic if everyone feels so strongly....
or I could really say how I feel and have them do it for me. 
The two men (Bush/McCain) disagree on so many issues, yet when push comes to shove, it's party togetherness all the way. OK, I guess that's not selling out your ideals and ideas, that's just politics.
As for those who feel it's "tiresome", "petty" and "childish", all I can say to you is that you didn't have to respond, especially in such a nasty manner. Speaking of tiresome, petty and childish...
I can ask the administrators to close the topic if everyone feels so strongly....
or I could really say how I feel and have them do it for me.
Daffy,
I don't see anyone attacking you here at all!
As to your contention that everyone you know (or have seen on other boards) is wondering at McCain's sell out, I'd suggest that this is because you don't know or read anyone who is conservative OR moderate!
I am SURE all the lefties out there are perplexed over McCain. But such people suffer from the skewed view of McCain that has been fostered by the loving media. Most on the left never heard of McCain until he tried to beat Bush in the 2000 election and the media painted him as some kind of left leaning, GOP gadfly, but his record does not stand up to that claim at all. But, for those who only looked at the superficial and loving media coverage they would be fooled into thinking that McCain is some kind of GOP giant killer.
As mentioned above, McCain is no left leaner. He DOES have some contentions with the GOP establishment, but he is no out right rebel. Not in the LEAST! He does like to appear to be the rebel so that he can keep his media notice up. But being a media "whore" does NOT equate automatically to him being a left leaning Republican.
In fact, this is why I don’t like him. I believe he is manipulative on one hand (by letting the media portray him incorrectly) and egoistic on the other (hungry FOR that media love). I am wholly against his foolhardy campaign finance "reform" nonsense, too. But he has voted for most of the GOP ideas his whole career. He is a fairly good Republican.
And, being that he is solidly a Republican, he is supporting the Party’s nominee as he should do.
I don't see anyone attacking you here at all!
As to your contention that everyone you know (or have seen on other boards) is wondering at McCain's sell out, I'd suggest that this is because you don't know or read anyone who is conservative OR moderate!
I am SURE all the lefties out there are perplexed over McCain. But such people suffer from the skewed view of McCain that has been fostered by the loving media. Most on the left never heard of McCain until he tried to beat Bush in the 2000 election and the media painted him as some kind of left leaning, GOP gadfly, but his record does not stand up to that claim at all. But, for those who only looked at the superficial and loving media coverage they would be fooled into thinking that McCain is some kind of GOP giant killer.
As mentioned above, McCain is no left leaner. He DOES have some contentions with the GOP establishment, but he is no out right rebel. Not in the LEAST! He does like to appear to be the rebel so that he can keep his media notice up. But being a media "whore" does NOT equate automatically to him being a left leaning Republican.
In fact, this is why I don’t like him. I believe he is manipulative on one hand (by letting the media portray him incorrectly) and egoistic on the other (hungry FOR that media love). I am wholly against his foolhardy campaign finance "reform" nonsense, too. But he has voted for most of the GOP ideas his whole career. He is a fairly good Republican.
And, being that he is solidly a Republican, he is supporting the Party’s nominee as he should do.
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Aug 11 2004, 11:33 AM)
McCain enjoys a reputation as a maverick and a rogue. Many liberals have been sold on his 'independent' image. But take a look at his voting record. He is not the most moderate Republican. He is a good little Republican, who tends to vote with his party.
He is close to being the most moderate Republican, ADA rankings 2003
Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) 2003 Senate Voting Records
Vote Number 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
ADA Position: N Y Y Y Y N Y N Y Y Y Y Y N N Y Y N N N
LQ
Party
QUOTE
Alabama
Sessions, J. R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0%
Shelby R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - - - - ? 10%
Alaska
Murkowski, L. R - + - - - - - - + + + - - - - - - - - - 20%
Stevens R - + - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Arizona
Kyl R - - - - - - + - + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
McCain R - - + - - + + + + - - - - - - - - - + + 35%
Arkansas
Lincoln D + + + + + + - - + + + + + + - + + + - - 75%
Pryor D + - + + + + - - + + + + + + - + + + - - 70%
California
Boxer D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Feinstein D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Colorado
Allard R - - - - ? - - + - - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Campbell R - + - - + - + - + + - - - - - + - - - - 30%
Connecticut
Dodd D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Lieberman D + + + + + + ? ? ? + ? + ? ? + + + + + + 70%
Delaware
Biden D + ? + + + + + - + + + + - + - + + + + - 75%
Carper D + + + + + + - - + + + + - + - + + + + - 75%
Florida
Graham, B. D ? + + + + + + + ? + ? ? ? + + + + + + + 75%
Nelson, Bill D - + + + + + - - + + + + + + + + + + + - 80%
Georgia
Chambliss R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Miller, Z. D - - - ? - - - - ? - + - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hawaii
Akaka D + + - + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 90%
Inouye D + + - + + + - - + + + + + + + + + + + + 85%
Idaho
Craig R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Crapo R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Illinois
Durbin D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Fitzgerald R - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Indiana
Bayh D + + + + + - + - + + + + - - - + + + + + 75%
Lugar R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Iowa
Grassley R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Harkin D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - + 95%
Kansas
Brownback R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Roberts R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - + - - - 15%
Kentucky
Bunning R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
McConnell R - ? - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Louisiana
Breaux D - - - + + + - - + + + - + - - + + - - - 45%
Landrieu D + + - + + + - - + + + + - - - + + + - - 60%
Maine
Collins, S. R - + + - - - + - + - + + - - + - + - + - 45%
Snowe R - + + + - + + - - + + + - - + + - - + - 55%
Maryland
Mikulski D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Sarbanes D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Massachusetts
Kennedy, E. D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Kerry, J. D + + + + + + + ? + + + ? + + + + + ? + + 85%
Michigan
Levin, C. D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Stabenow D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Minnesota
Coleman R - - + - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Dayton D + + + + + + + - + + + + - - + + + + - - 75%
Mississippi
Cochran R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Lott R - - - - - - - + - - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Missouri
Bond R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Talent R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Montana
Baucus, M. D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + - - 85%
Burns, C. R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Nebraska
Hagel R - - - - - - - - + - + - - - - - - - - + 15%
Nelson, Ben D - - + + + - - - + + + + - - - + + ? - - 45%
Nevada
Ensign R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - ? ? - - - 10%
Reid, H. D + - + + + + + - + + + + + + - ? ? + + - 70%
New Hampshire
Gregg R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - + - 15%
Sununu R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - + - 15%
New Jersey
Corzine D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Lautenberg D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
New Mexico
Bingaman D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Domenici R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
New York
Clinton D + + + + + + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + 95%
Schumer D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
North Carolina
Dole R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - + - - - 15%
Edwards, J. D + + + + + + + + + + ? ? + + ? ? ? ? ? + 65%
North Dakota
Conrad D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Dorgan D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Ohio
DeWine R - - + - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Voinovich R - - - - - - - - + - + + - - - - - - - - 15%
Oklahoma
Inhofe R - - - - - - - ? + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Nickles R - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Oregon
Smith, G. R - - + - - - + - + ? ? ? - - - - + - - - 20%
Wyden D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Pennsylvania
Santorum R - - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Specter R - + - - + - - - + + - - - - - + - - - - 25%
Rhode Island
Chafee R - + + - - + + - + + + + + - + - + - + + 65%
Reed, J. D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
South Carolina
Graham, L. R - - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Hollings D + + + + + + - + + + + + + + - + ? + ? + 80%
South Dakota
Daschle D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Johnson, Tim D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Tennessee
Alexander, L. R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Frist R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - + - 10%
Texas
Cornyn R - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hutchison, K. R - + - - - - - - - - - + - - ? - - - - - 10%
Utah
Bennett R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hatch R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Vermont
Jeffords I + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + - + - 85%
Leahy D + + + + + + + - + + + ? + + - + + + + + 85%
Virginia
Allen, G. R - - - - - - ? - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Warner R - + - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Washington
Cantwell D + + + + + + + - + + + + - + + + + + + + 90%
Murray D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
West Virginia
Byrd D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - + + + + + 95%
Rockefeller D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Wisconsin
Feingold D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Kohl D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - 95%
Wyoming
Enzi R - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - 5%
Thomas, C. R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0%
Sessions, J. R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0%
Shelby R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - - - - ? 10%
Alaska
Murkowski, L. R - + - - - - - - + + + - - - - - - - - - 20%
Stevens R - + - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Arizona
Kyl R - - - - - - + - + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
McCain R - - + - - + + + + - - - - - - - - - + + 35%
Arkansas
Lincoln D + + + + + + - - + + + + + + - + + + - - 75%
Pryor D + - + + + + - - + + + + + + - + + + - - 70%
California
Boxer D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Feinstein D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Colorado
Allard R - - - - ? - - + - - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Campbell R - + - - + - + - + + - - - - - + - - - - 30%
Connecticut
Dodd D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Lieberman D + + + + + + ? ? ? + ? + ? ? + + + + + + 70%
Delaware
Biden D + ? + + + + + - + + + + - + - + + + + - 75%
Carper D + + + + + + - - + + + + - + - + + + + - 75%
Florida
Graham, B. D ? + + + + + + + ? + ? ? ? + + + + + + + 75%
Nelson, Bill D - + + + + + - - + + + + + + + + + + + - 80%
Georgia
Chambliss R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Miller, Z. D - - - ? - - - - ? - + - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hawaii
Akaka D + + - + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 90%
Inouye D + + - + + + - - + + + + + + + + + + + + 85%
Idaho
Craig R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Crapo R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Illinois
Durbin D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Fitzgerald R - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Indiana
Bayh D + + + + + - + - + + + + - - - + + + + + 75%
Lugar R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Iowa
Grassley R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Harkin D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - + 95%
Kansas
Brownback R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Roberts R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - + - - - 15%
Kentucky
Bunning R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
McConnell R - ? - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Louisiana
Breaux D - - - + + + - - + + + - + - - + + - - - 45%
Landrieu D + + - + + + - - + + + + - - - + + + - - 60%
Maine
Collins, S. R - + + - - - + - + - + + - - + - + - + - 45%
Snowe R - + + + - + + - - + + + - - + + - - + - 55%
Maryland
Mikulski D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Sarbanes D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Massachusetts
Kennedy, E. D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Kerry, J. D + + + + + + + ? + + + ? + + + + + ? + + 85%
Michigan
Levin, C. D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Stabenow D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Minnesota
Coleman R - - + - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Dayton D + + + + + + + - + + + + - - + + + + - - 75%
Mississippi
Cochran R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Lott R - - - - - - - + - - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Missouri
Bond R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Talent R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Montana
Baucus, M. D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + - - 85%
Burns, C. R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Nebraska
Hagel R - - - - - - - - + - + - - - - - - - - + 15%
Nelson, Ben D - - + + + - - - + + + + - - - + + ? - - 45%
Nevada
Ensign R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - ? ? - - - 10%
Reid, H. D + - + + + + + - + + + + + + - ? ? + + - 70%
New Hampshire
Gregg R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - + - 15%
Sununu R - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - + - 15%
New Jersey
Corzine D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Lautenberg D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
New Mexico
Bingaman D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Domenici R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
New York
Clinton D + + + + + + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + 95%
Schumer D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
North Carolina
Dole R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - + - - - 15%
Edwards, J. D + + + + + + + + + + ? ? + + ? ? ? ? ? + 65%
North Dakota
Conrad D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Dorgan D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Ohio
DeWine R - - + - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Voinovich R - - - - - - - - + - + + - - - - - - - - 15%
Oklahoma
Inhofe R - - - - - - - ? + - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Nickles R - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - 5%
Oregon
Smith, G. R - - + - - - + - + ? ? ? - - - - + - - - 20%
Wyden D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
Pennsylvania
Santorum R - - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Specter R - + - - + - - - + + - - - - - + - - - - 25%
Rhode Island
Chafee R - + + - - + + - + + + + + - + - + - + + 65%
Reed, J. D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
South Carolina
Graham, L. R - - - - - - - + + - - - - - - - + - - - 15%
Hollings D + + + + + + - + + + + + + + - + ? + ? + 80%
South Dakota
Daschle D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Johnson, Tim D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + - - 80%
Tennessee
Alexander, L. R - - - - - - - - + - - + - - - - - - - - 10%
Frist R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - + - 10%
Texas
Cornyn R - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hutchison, K. R - + - - - - - - - - - + - - ? - - - - - 10%
Utah
Bennett R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Hatch R - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - + - - - 10%
Vermont
Jeffords I + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + - + - 85%
Leahy D + + + + + + + - + + + ? + + - + + + + + 85%
Virginia
Allen, G. R - - - - - - ? - - - - - - - - - + - - - 5%
Warner R - + - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - 10%
Washington
Cantwell D + + + + + + + - + + + + - + + + + + + + 90%
Murray D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - 90%
West Virginia
Byrd D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - + + + + + 95%
Rockefeller D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + 100%
Wisconsin
Feingold D + + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + 95%
Kohl D + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - 95%
Wyoming
Enzi R - - - - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - 5%
Thomas, C. R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0%
There were three Republican senators with more liberal voting records in 2003 as ranked by the ADA. No Democrat scored lower than 45%, unless you count Zell Miller as a Democrat
, McCain's score was 35%. McCain is definitely closer to Bush than Kerry. Kerry voted with the ADA 100% of the time, when he voted.
Just because McCain has been the most outspoken Republican critic of Bush's policies dos not mean that he would want to lose Republican control of the white house. If Bush gets reelected he is in good position in 2008, if not he would have to defeat a democratic incumbent.
His sellout is probably being solved by the strong (and consistent) endorsement of Bush when asked. The plentiful rumors that McCain was looking for a spot on the Democratic Party ticket probably pushed him even more to vocally confirm his affiliation with the Republican ticket.
His sellout is probably being solved by the strong (and consistent) endorsement of Bush when asked. The plentiful rumors that McCain was looking for a spot on the Democratic Party ticket probably pushed him even more to vocally confirm his affiliation with the Republican ticket.
QUOTE(lederuvdapac)
I do not see a topic about any of the Democrats "selling out". This is hypocrisy at its finest.
Then start one.
This is a great question DaffyGrl, for one it underscores the hypocritical nature of our two party system, it’s too bad some choose to see this as hypocrisy simply because it addresses a member of their chosen party.
This is nothing new, both parties have had candidates who at one time circled their wagons to endorse a former opponent, it’s simply the evil nature of Primary and General elections. Remember who tagged Reagans economic policy as ‘voodoo economics’ back in the 1980 GOP primary? None other than his future VP, Bush I.
Like many I admire McCain for his service to our country and the horrors suffered as a POW. However I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone who was beaten up as badly by members of his own party and thrown under the bus, who openly criticized his leader, was considered by the opposite party as a major candidate but then turned around to support the party line.
As usual, quarkhead summed it up nicely:
QUOTE(quarkhead)
In real life this turn-around would be seen as cowardice or capitulation; in politics it is prudence.
Unfortunately party loyalty comes first.
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Aug 11 2004, 01:06 PM)
The two men (Bush/McCain) disagree on so many issues, yet when push comes to shove, it's party togetherness all the way. OK, I guess that's not selling out your ideals and ideas, that's just politics.
That's the fallacy.
McCain and Bush AGREE on most issues.
John McCain on the Issues
McCain is Conservative, on some issues he is Very Conservative.
I think some people have deceived themselves into thinking otherwise...
Has McCain “sold out”? If so, why? If not, why?
No. John McCain is a Republican. He is a conservative Republican. His views on almost every issue are closer to Bush's than to Kerry's.
QUOTE(cogito ergo sum)
As to your contention that everyone you know (or have seen on other boards) is wondering at McCain's sell out, I'd suggest that this is because you don't know or read anyone who is conservative OR moderate!
I certainly never contended that everyone I knew wondered; I merely stated:
QUOTE(DaffyGrl)
I was surprised by how many sources were speculating about the same thing.
These are sources found researching on the 'net, not my friends and relatives. And I read many, many sites from various POVs, thank you very much. I suggest you read a person's post thoroughly before putting words in their mouth.
My point in asking this question, is how can anyone support a person who has so viciously attacked them in the past. It is my assumption therefore, that all is forgiven only because of party loyalty.
Take politics out of the equation for a minute. If someone spread rumors about your wife being a drug addict, or that you had had an out-of-wedlock, different race child, or that you served dishonorably in combat; would you turn around and warmly embrace this person and be their best bud? I sure wouldn't have warm fuzzies about that person, let alone support them, even for dogcatcher! But, hey, that's just me.
Because at the end of the day McCain is still a Repbublican, and true to his party (as opposed to a person).
I would argue that if he was in fact a sellout he would have said nothing about the swiftboat ads http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/...n.ap/index.html
All I can say is I am sincerely praying he runs in 2008. A McCain/Powell ticket would get my vote in a heartbeat.
Doc
I would argue that if he was in fact a sellout he would have said nothing about the swiftboat ads http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/...n.ap/index.html
QUOTE
"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."
All I can say is I am sincerely praying he runs in 2008. A McCain/Powell ticket would get my vote in a heartbeat.
Doc
This is an interesting topic!
I don't agree that it is a character assassination at all. In fact, there is just as much potential for it to be a celebration of McCain and his public service. I would, in fact, argue that this has so far been a positive review of him.
Last I heard McCain was calling into question how long he was willing to continue serving.
He pointed out that there were, to paraphrase, "Those who have stayed in public service too long...I won't use names, we know who those people are..". He then said that he didn't want to become one of those people but he was willing to do one more term if the people of Arizona would have him.
I'm curious if he truly has visions of running for the presidency. He must know that he would have a great shot at it but he also realizes that he has some bad blood between himself and people in the GoP. He HAS broken party lines and tried to cut the purse strings of Washington politicians. I have my doubts about whether or not he could get a nomination in either party.
Amlord I agree that McCain is very conservative in most things but I would argue that he sees his party diverging from his brand of conservatism. I would disagree that he is morally or religiously conservative unless you count patriotism as conservatism (something I believe conservatives often do)
McCain IS about small government and lower taxes but he seems willing to accept the fact that we need laws to make people honest in this system we have....and that is not a Republican talking point.
I have been wanting to hear from him on why he is loyal to GWB but, when asked, he seems to clam up and spout that exact same quote about "moral clarity" from the original post. I have heard him say the same thing in multiple TV interviews. Still, he loses his poker face a bit when confronted with the 2000 election smearing.
I can't call him a hypocrite because he has proven to be consistent in his opinions on everything (the Vietnam attack ad is a perfect example). Rather, I would simply chalk it up to the machinations of a complex, intellligent man who has reasons for the things he does.
On something like this the only people who can call him on his reasoning is his constituency...
I don't agree that it is a character assassination at all. In fact, there is just as much potential for it to be a celebration of McCain and his public service. I would, in fact, argue that this has so far been a positive review of him.
Last I heard McCain was calling into question how long he was willing to continue serving.
He pointed out that there were, to paraphrase, "Those who have stayed in public service too long...I won't use names, we know who those people are..". He then said that he didn't want to become one of those people but he was willing to do one more term if the people of Arizona would have him.
I'm curious if he truly has visions of running for the presidency. He must know that he would have a great shot at it but he also realizes that he has some bad blood between himself and people in the GoP. He HAS broken party lines and tried to cut the purse strings of Washington politicians. I have my doubts about whether or not he could get a nomination in either party.
Amlord I agree that McCain is very conservative in most things but I would argue that he sees his party diverging from his brand of conservatism. I would disagree that he is morally or religiously conservative unless you count patriotism as conservatism (something I believe conservatives often do)
McCain IS about small government and lower taxes but he seems willing to accept the fact that we need laws to make people honest in this system we have....and that is not a Republican talking point.
I have been wanting to hear from him on why he is loyal to GWB but, when asked, he seems to clam up and spout that exact same quote about "moral clarity" from the original post. I have heard him say the same thing in multiple TV interviews. Still, he loses his poker face a bit when confronted with the 2000 election smearing.
I can't call him a hypocrite because he has proven to be consistent in his opinions on everything (the Vietnam attack ad is a perfect example). Rather, I would simply chalk it up to the machinations of a complex, intellligent man who has reasons for the things he does.
On something like this the only people who can call him on his reasoning is his constituency...
I'm with lederuvdapac on this one, the question somewhat befuddles me. However, as Daffy states, it is being put on there in the media, so it is certainly a legitimate topic. But, even Daffy admits:
That's my take, as well. What, really, is the difference between McCain supporting Bush, and Edwards now running with Kerry? Both ran against at one time, and now support. Granted, Kerry may not have gotten as down and dirty with Edwards--but that's because he never had to, not because of any great moral and ethical dilemma he would have had over doing so. Pretty much everything is fair game in politics--there are no sacred lines that can't be crossed; its survival of the fittest, no holds barred, winner take all. You might wish that weren't the case, but it certainly is how the game has always been played (have you ever looked at the history of 'dirty' politics? In the US it goes all the way back to Thomas Jefferson, if not even earlier, and it was probably dirtier then than it was now.). McCain knows this, feels Bush is more closely aligned to his philosophy than Kerry (probably moreso than most here would suspect), and so is now supporting him. The only thing that makes this even mildly an issue is the image of McCain as the straight-talker, above such pragmatism. News for ya folks, that ain't so, and it never was. The 'Straight-Talk Express' was a propoganda tool, just like any other campaign ploy. Nothing against McCain, I like and respect the guy, but this is simply the way it is--you campaign on your perceived strengths, and that was McCain's.
QUOTE
The two men (Bush/McCain) disagree on so many issues, yet when push comes to shove, it's party togetherness all the way. OK, I guess that's not selling out your ideals and ideas, that's just politics.
That's my take, as well. What, really, is the difference between McCain supporting Bush, and Edwards now running with Kerry? Both ran against at one time, and now support. Granted, Kerry may not have gotten as down and dirty with Edwards--but that's because he never had to, not because of any great moral and ethical dilemma he would have had over doing so. Pretty much everything is fair game in politics--there are no sacred lines that can't be crossed; its survival of the fittest, no holds barred, winner take all. You might wish that weren't the case, but it certainly is how the game has always been played (have you ever looked at the history of 'dirty' politics? In the US it goes all the way back to Thomas Jefferson, if not even earlier, and it was probably dirtier then than it was now.). McCain knows this, feels Bush is more closely aligned to his philosophy than Kerry (probably moreso than most here would suspect), and so is now supporting him. The only thing that makes this even mildly an issue is the image of McCain as the straight-talker, above such pragmatism. News for ya folks, that ain't so, and it never was. The 'Straight-Talk Express' was a propoganda tool, just like any other campaign ploy. Nothing against McCain, I like and respect the guy, but this is simply the way it is--you campaign on your perceived strengths, and that was McCain's.
Some how I doubt we will ever see a McCain run for the presidency again. And I also believe Powell is finished with politics after this current term.
Now I want to see Rice run!
Now I want to see Rice run!
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