Full Version: McGreevey's Appointment
This past Thursday, Jim McGreevey resigned from office effective November 15th and told the world that "my truth is that I am a gay American."
nighttimer has started a wonderful thread, "I Am A Gay American", A Reversal of Fortunes for Gay Rights?" The title explains the focus of that thread and I am sure the discussion of sexual harrassment will be explored.
I want to explore two other aspects of the issue.
This appointment of the non-citizen, Cipel as a homeland security advisor, seems an issue in my opinion.
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
McGreevey has been involved in other questionable activities too.
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
nighttimer has started a wonderful thread, "I Am A Gay American", A Reversal of Fortunes for Gay Rights?" The title explains the focus of that thread and I am sure the discussion of sexual harrassment will be explored.
I want to explore two other aspects of the issue.
QUOTE
According to reports, Cipel met McGreevey during a trip to Israel and then worked on his 2001 campaign. He became McGreevey's hand-picked homeland security adviser with a $110,000 annual salary but was unable to get federal security clearances because he was not a U.S. citizen.
McGreevey eventually moved Cipel out of that job but kept him on the payroll as an adviser. Cipel quietly left state government for a public-relations job in August 2002.
McGreevey eventually moved Cipel out of that job but kept him on the payroll as an adviser. Cipel quietly left state government for a public-relations job in August 2002.
This appointment of the non-citizen, Cipel as a homeland security advisor, seems an issue in my opinion.
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
McGreevey has been involved in other questionable activities too.
QUOTE
Two of his top aides are under investigation for payments they received for billboard locations. A waste-hauler and McGreevey fundraiser has been charged with extorting bribes from a landowner. And two years ago, the state Democratic committee paid $75,000 to cover 14 personal trips by McGreevey that had been charged to taxpayers.
<snip>
…Republican leaders who had praised McGreevey for coming forward were demanding that he resign immediately instead of on Nov. 15. By waiting until November to step down, McGreevey avoided triggering a special election for governor that would have been held at the same time as the presidential vote. He also ensured that a Democrat, state Senate president Richard J. Codey, would remain governor until the end of McGreevey's term in 2005.
<snip>
…Republican leaders who had praised McGreevey for coming forward were demanding that he resign immediately instead of on Nov. 15. By waiting until November to step down, McGreevey avoided triggering a special election for governor that would have been held at the same time as the presidential vote. He also ensured that a Democrat, state Senate president Richard J. Codey, would remain governor until the end of McGreevey's term in 2005.
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Aug 15 2004, 07:32 AM)
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
QUOTE
Thanks Belladonna for your critique of the thread I started. I hope you'll share your thoughts there as well.
Regarding your debate questions:
1. I'd like to know a bit more about the appointment of New Jersey's Homeland Security director. Is there a requirement that the person be a U.S. citizen. If any country is familiar with dealing with terrorism it's Israel. I would have to give the benefit of the doubt that Cipel was at least minimally qualified for the job. I doubt that Cipel's appointment put lives at risk.
2. Nonsense. Who's going to file the charge and make the case? The state's attorney general?
3. Yes, he should, but political considerations mean he won't. The press and the Jersey Republican Party will howl for McGreevey to step aside, but he apparently can call his own shot here. I wonder though---does N.J. have a lt. governor? Wouldn't he or her take McGreevey's place?
4. Why do you ask this question? His bad personal judgment not withstanding, I haven't read anything to make me question McGreevey's ability to make rational decisions as governor.
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
I don't see how. I've seen nothing to indicate that Cipel was anything other than a loyal Zionist - which would seem to slot right in with this administration's policies. Further, he has more military experience than Tom Ridge, a lot more experience of terrorism, more public relations experience (which, after all, is what the Department of Homeland Security is all about), and just as much intelligence experience. Would another failed American politician in such a role have been more in keeping with standard practice? Sure. Would it have meant less jeopardy for New Jersey or US citizens? I doubt it.
The most serious criticism of Cipel as an employee seems to be that he doesn't show up for work as often as he should. Until they figure out what the hell they're supposed to be doing, I wish the same could be said of more people in Homeland Security sinecures.
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
On what grounds? That he made a more likely appointment than President Bush?
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
I have three answers to this:
The partisan answer: Better a Democratic elected official moving into the governorship than an unknown from either party at relatively short notice. Obviously, this is the main reason McGreevey wants to stay until November - to ensure a transition which will keep many of his initiatives in place. And, just as obviously, this is the only reason Reublicans want him gone now - the prospect of replacing him with one of their own.
The gay answer: Unless and until Cipel brings provable criminal charges against McGreevey, no. He should have stuck with this part of his speech and left it at that:
Unless Cipel brings charges (and, so far, it looks like he was only trying to extort McGreevey), the governor should have said that he was being blackmailed and, rather than give in to such threats, he was simply going to be honest with the citizens of his state and continue serving New Jersey as he always had done.
The personal answer: There are elements of both of the above in this response, but I should also add that I don't believe the personal life of a public figure should have anything to do with his or her fitness for the job. Should family issues arising from this disclosure prove so distracting that he is unable to fulfill his obligations as governor, then he should stand down. Otherwise, if this was, as McGreevey claims, a consensual relationship which Cipel was recently trying to exploit for cash, then McGreevey did the right thing by going public and should see out the rest of his term - as America's first openly gay governor. This would also demonstrate that being gay is no longer as serious a blackmail threat as it once was.
All of the above would, of course, change if Cipel, in fact, proves to be a poor beleaguered little Israeli veteran at the mercy of unwanted advances from a domineering old closet case.
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
Why not? The people of New Jersey seem to think he's been capable of making rational decisions as an elected official off and on for nearly fourteen years. Because he is now being more honest than ever, he should seem less rational?
I don't see how. I've seen nothing to indicate that Cipel was anything other than a loyal Zionist - which would seem to slot right in with this administration's policies. Further, he has more military experience than Tom Ridge, a lot more experience of terrorism, more public relations experience (which, after all, is what the Department of Homeland Security is all about), and just as much intelligence experience. Would another failed American politician in such a role have been more in keeping with standard practice? Sure. Would it have meant less jeopardy for New Jersey or US citizens? I doubt it.
The most serious criticism of Cipel as an employee seems to be that he doesn't show up for work as often as he should. Until they figure out what the hell they're supposed to be doing, I wish the same could be said of more people in Homeland Security sinecures.
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
On what grounds? That he made a more likely appointment than President Bush?
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
I have three answers to this:
The partisan answer: Better a Democratic elected official moving into the governorship than an unknown from either party at relatively short notice. Obviously, this is the main reason McGreevey wants to stay until November - to ensure a transition which will keep many of his initiatives in place. And, just as obviously, this is the only reason Reublicans want him gone now - the prospect of replacing him with one of their own.
The gay answer: Unless and until Cipel brings provable criminal charges against McGreevey, no. He should have stuck with this part of his speech and left it at that:
QUOTE
It makes little difference that as governor I am gay. In fact, having the ability to truthfully set forth my identity might have enabled me to be more forthright in fulfilling and discharging my constitutional obligations.
Unless Cipel brings charges (and, so far, it looks like he was only trying to extort McGreevey), the governor should have said that he was being blackmailed and, rather than give in to such threats, he was simply going to be honest with the citizens of his state and continue serving New Jersey as he always had done.
The personal answer: There are elements of both of the above in this response, but I should also add that I don't believe the personal life of a public figure should have anything to do with his or her fitness for the job. Should family issues arising from this disclosure prove so distracting that he is unable to fulfill his obligations as governor, then he should stand down. Otherwise, if this was, as McGreevey claims, a consensual relationship which Cipel was recently trying to exploit for cash, then McGreevey did the right thing by going public and should see out the rest of his term - as America's first openly gay governor. This would also demonstrate that being gay is no longer as serious a blackmail threat as it once was.
All of the above would, of course, change if Cipel, in fact, proves to be a poor beleaguered little Israeli veteran at the mercy of unwanted advances from a domineering old closet case.
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
Why not? The people of New Jersey seem to think he's been capable of making rational decisions as an elected official off and on for nearly fourteen years. Because he is now being more honest than ever, he should seem less rational?
QUOTE
Yes, he should, but political considerations mean he won't. The press and the Jersey Republican Party will howl for McGreevey to step aside, but he apparently can call his own shot here. I wonder though---does N.J. have a lt. governor? Wouldn't he or her take McGreevey's place?
The chairman of the state senate takes over if I remember correctly, but only if McGreevy stays on until the Nov. 15th date.
If this is true, then not only should he step down immediately, but they should launch a criminal investigation into this to see if any laws were broken.
Where the guy is gay or not is really irrelevant. However - according Sean Hannity - the commander of the vast right wing conspiracy hisself, McGreevy selected an unexperienced and unqualified lover over Louis Freeh - former FBI director - as a New Jersey's Homeland Security advisor. Apparently, Louis Freeh accepted that position and was rejected because of this relationship.
If this is true (and I'll grant you, that's a big if), this seems to be criminal negligence. Whether anything happened or not, putting New Jersey and the rest of America in unnecessary danger due to nepotism seems criminal.
If the governor screwed around on his wife, that's some seriously bad judgement. But making national security arrangements based on that activity is way beyond bad judgement.
Where the guy is gay or not is really irrelevant. However - according Sean Hannity - the commander of the vast right wing conspiracy hisself, McGreevy selected an unexperienced and unqualified lover over Louis Freeh - former FBI director - as a New Jersey's Homeland Security advisor. Apparently, Louis Freeh accepted that position and was rejected because of this relationship.
If this is true (and I'll grant you, that's a big if), this seems to be criminal negligence. Whether anything happened or not, putting New Jersey and the rest of America in unnecessary danger due to nepotism seems criminal.
If the governor screwed around on his wife, that's some seriously bad judgement. But making national security arrangements based on that activity is way beyond bad judgement.
I clicked the link in your post Dayton Rocker and as soon as I saw that this story was reported by Newsmax, it's credibility diminished significantly in my eyes.
Christopher Ruddy, the hack journalist, who runs this site is also the purveyor of the book The Strange Death of Vincent Foster and wrote an "investigative" story into the supposed murder of President Clinton's Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.
Wired wrote a good story about the modus operandi of Ruddy and Newsmax back in 2000. It seems to still hold relevance today.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0%2C1284%2C40375%2C00.html
I'm wary of "exposes" and "exclusives" that appear on the Internet and even more so when they come from sources without even the pretense of impartiality.
Consider the source. If this story had come from a conservative publication of the stature of The Wall Street Journal I might have to give it a bit more credence.
Christopher Ruddy, the hack journalist, who runs this site is also the purveyor of the book The Strange Death of Vincent Foster and wrote an "investigative" story into the supposed murder of President Clinton's Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.
Wired wrote a good story about the modus operandi of Ruddy and Newsmax back in 2000. It seems to still hold relevance today.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0%2C1284%2C40375%2C00.html
I'm wary of "exposes" and "exclusives" that appear on the Internet and even more so when they come from sources without even the pretense of impartiality.
Consider the source. If this story had come from a conservative publication of the stature of The Wall Street Journal I might have to give it a bit more credence.
QUOTE(Beladonna @ Aug 15 2004, 06:32 AM)
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
I think McGreevy should step down now and let someone else take the reins as governor.
QUOTE
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
Not with the constant news coverage about his confession hanging over his head. That would disrupt his abilities to govern and make it difficult for him to debate the issues concerning the people of New Jersey.
QUOTE
I think McGreevy should step down now and let someone else take the reins as governor.
The point of him stepping down later is that if he were to resign now; they would have to hold an election before someone could take the reins; leaving the government non-functioning for three months.
QUOTE
That would disrupt his abilities to govern and make it difficult for him to debate the issues concerning the people of New Jersey.
This I don't understand at all. Should Clinton have resigned? He was certainly under media pressure. These are big boys doing jobs that mandate a certain amount pressure. If they can't handle it they wouldn't have signed up.
The fact is that he hasn't been convicted of anything illegal and the people of New Jersey by and large still support him. Until that changes him walking away would be irresponsible.
QUOTE
1. I'd like to know a bit more about the appointment of New Jersey's Homeland Security director. Is there a requirement that the person be a U.S. citizen. If any country is familiar with dealing with terrorism it's Israel. I would have to give the benefit of the doubt that Cipel was at least minimally qualified for the job. I doubt that Cipel's appointment put lives at risk.
Since he is not an American Citizen he is unable to receive classified documents. Being that he was NJ's Head of Homeland Security this is a major risk for the whole country. I don't remember the guys name, but a former director of the FBI was willing to except the job, and rumor has it he didn't want any money, the only thing that was needed was the OK of the current Governor and the governor Elect (McGreevy).. He had other plans.
QUOTE
Better a Democratic elected official moving into the governorship than an unknown from either party at relatively short notice. Obviously, this is the main reason McGreevey wants to stay until November - to ensure a transition which will keep many of his initiatives in place. And, just as obviously, this is the only reason Reublicans want him gone now - the prospect of replacing him with one of their own.
The chairman of the state senate, a Democrat, would take over for him. That is an elected official and not a Republican. The Citizens of NJ would then elect their new governor when they go to the polls to elect the President.
QUOTE
The personal answer: There are elements of both of the above in this response, but I should also add that I don't believe the personal life of a public figure should have anything to do with his or her fitness for the job.
His sexual or personal choices aren't even at question in this debate. Thats a big thing I noticed going on in the Media, and in Dem circles. This guy put the whole country in danger so he could get laid, and everyone says "He shouldn't resign because he's gay." I agree he should resign for failing to protect the citizens of NJ and potentially putting the rest of us in danger for a piece of tail(ewww).. If this was a hetro love affair people would be calling for his head. Not because he cheated on his wife, but because there was no Homosexual element to detract from his negligence.
QUOTE
The point of him stepping down later is that if he were to resign now; they would have to hold an election before someone could take the reins; leaving the government non-functioning for three months.
This is untrue.. The chairman of the state senate would take control until after the election. Then the Governor elect would take over.
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
Of course. This guy wasn't even allowed to read classified documents, how could he effectively do his Job?
Is there a possibility that criminal charges (negligence or reckless endangement) could be applied to his actions?
I don't' know but if they apply then there should be charges.
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
McGreevy should have stepped down they day he announced he was retiring. The only reason he didn't is because Brett Shundler ® is the most likely person to take over his position if a vote is held. It should be left up to the people of the state no McGreevy.
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
He hasn't made any so far. What would change from now until then?
I think there is a misunderstanding that needs to be resolved. The position in question (no not that kind of position 
) was not a state-equivalent to Rumsfeld or Ridge; it is not an executive position. It was purely an advisory role.
) was not a state-equivalent to Rumsfeld or Ridge; it is not an executive position. It was purely an advisory role.
QUOTE
"I am a gay American" — was strategically devised with the help of a national gay rights organization the governor had consulted in the last hours of his secret life.
McGreevey intentionally focused the discussion away from what (to me) is a more important issue. If McGreevey were having an alleged affair with a woman, we would have questioned his rational. We would have wanted to know how he thought placing his female lover in such a critical role in his government was logical.
Could this appointment have placed NJ citizens, for that matter all American’s in jeopardy?
Absolutely. Because McGreevey didn't place Cipel in that position to advise him on Homeland Security issues. He placed Cipel as a Homeland Security advisor to facilitate certain "positions".
Should McGreevey step down by Sept 15th or should he stay until Nov 15th?
He should have resigned effective immediately and allowed the citizens, of which he was suppose to represent, excercise their rights.
Can McGreevey be trusted to make rational decisions for the next 3 months?
I am sure he has the ability to make rational decisions. Unfortunately, his history proves that he chooses not to.
I guess I have a bigger question about the resignation of McGreevy.
He is resigning because he's not fit to be governor any longer for a multitude of reasons.
If he's not fit to be governor after Nov 15, why would he be fit for governor now?
He is resigning because he's not fit to be governor any longer for a multitude of reasons.
If he's not fit to be governor after Nov 15, why would he be fit for governor now?
QUOTE
He is resigning because he's not fit to be governor any longer for a multitude of reasons.
He's resigning because he is no longer fit to govern? I've never seen him say that. What he has said is that:
QUOTE
McGreevey said his affair and sexuality -- "if kept secret" -- would leave the governor's office "vulnerable to rumors, false allegations and threats of disclosure."
It certainly seems to me that he is resigning because he feels like his long-term presence in government threatens the office, not because he himself is unable to govern.
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Aug 22 2004, 01:48 PM)
QUOTE
He is resigning because he's not fit to be governor any longer for a multitude of reasons.
He's resigning because he is no longer fit to govern? I've never seen him say that. What he has said is that:
QUOTE
McGreevey said his affair and sexuality -- "if kept secret" -- would leave the governor's office "vulnerable to rumors, false allegations and threats of disclosure."
It certainly seems to me that he is resigning because he feels like his long-term presence in government threatens the office, not because he himself is unable to govern.
Huh? What's the difference?
If he was fit to be governor, he wouldn't be resigning. It's not like he's stating he's not running for re-election. He's QUITTING for pete's sake.
Being gay isn't a problem. We have enough of those in office and nobody gripes. His behavior was the problem and that seems to be why he's quitting. Irregardless of the semantics, he's quitting because he can no longer adequatly govern until the end of his term.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Aug 22 2004, 12:21 PM)
Huh? What's the difference?
If he was fit to be governor, he wouldn't be resigning. It's not like he's stating he's not running for re-election. He's QUITTING for pete's sake.
If he was fit to be governor, he wouldn't be resigning. It's not like he's stating he's not running for re-election. He's QUITTING for pete's sake.
I think it probably has more to do with his desire to not give the press attack fodder any longer than he has to DR. I would imagine he is "taking one for the team" and by bowing out of office trying to avoid giving the Democrats any bigger of a black eye than he has to.
Until some of these allegations against him are proven, I don't think there is anything to suggest he isn't capable of being governor. The negative PR that he is getting though, certainly impairs his ability to be governor, and that is the main problem. How effective was Clinton as a president after the Lewinsky scandal? Not very.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Aug 22 2004, 03:21 PM)
Being gay isn't a problem. We have enough of those in office and nobody gripes. His behavior was the problem and that seems to be why he's quitting. Irregardless of the semantics, he's quitting because he can no longer adequatly govern until the end of his term.
I get the impression that he is resigning because of pressures mounting due to Cipel's threatening of a lawsuit against McGreevey claiming sexual harrassment.
Probaby more to it than that even. The homosexual thing looked to me to be a smokescreen.
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