Full Version: Russia Attacked?
One Russian Airliner Crashes, Second Missing
These are early reports...terrorism has not been confirmed but also not ruled out.
The first suspect is of course Chechen Rebels. But i am guessing that groups such as Al Queda are not ruled out.
Questions for Debate:
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
If it does turn out to be terrorism...and it turns out to be Chechen Rebels...i think it will be a real shock to Russia and a lot of the world the lengths that extremist groups are now taking. Using airliners looks to be a new tactic for Chechen Rebels...but a something Al Queda knows all too well.
These are early reports...terrorism has not been confirmed but also not ruled out.
QUOTE
MOSCOW — A Russian airliner crashed and a second disappeared from radar about the same time Tuesday night after both planes took off from the same Moscow airport, raising fears that terrorism was involved.
There was no word on survivors among the 89 people believed to be aboard the planes, which left Moscow's Domodedovo airport (search) 40 minutes apart, Russian news agencies reported.
President Vladimir Putin (search) ordered an investigation by the nation's top intelligence agency, and security was tightened at airports across the country.
There was no word on survivors among the 89 people believed to be aboard the planes, which left Moscow's Domodedovo airport (search) 40 minutes apart, Russian news agencies reported.
President Vladimir Putin (search) ordered an investigation by the nation's top intelligence agency, and security was tightened at airports across the country.
QUOTE
When Russia's U.N. Ambassador Andrey Denisov was told of the initial report of two near-simultaneous crashes, he said, "Now we have to see if there's terrorism."
In Washington, a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity Tuesday evening, said it was the understanding of American officials that the two Russian planes disappeared within four minutes of each other, which "in and of itself is suspicious."
Separately, a U.S. counterterrorism official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said there was no threat reporting to indicate a threat to U.S. aircraft or to U.S. aircraft in Russia.
In Washington, a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity Tuesday evening, said it was the understanding of American officials that the two Russian planes disappeared within four minutes of each other, which "in and of itself is suspicious."
Separately, a U.S. counterterrorism official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said there was no threat reporting to indicate a threat to U.S. aircraft or to U.S. aircraft in Russia.
The first suspect is of course Chechen Rebels. But i am guessing that groups such as Al Queda are not ruled out.
Questions for Debate:
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
If it does turn out to be terrorism...and it turns out to be Chechen Rebels...i think it will be a real shock to Russia and a lot of the world the lengths that extremist groups are now taking. Using airliners looks to be a new tactic for Chechen Rebels...but a something Al Queda knows all too well.
You're making a whole slew of assumptions there lederuvdapac, so I guess it doesn't hurt if I toss in my own. If this WAS a terrorist attack (despite Russia's abysmal air-safety record and the fact that nobody has taken responsibility) then it changes nothing, except perhaps the feelings of people who need a terrorist boogeyman to justify their unilateral Foreign Policy blustering. (That's not a slight towards members here.)
The fact remains that terrorism has been a sad reality of the world since the start of the cold war (and the subsequent proliferation of arms and violence), and two airplane bombings (again ASSUMING they are terrorist attacks) is just a drop in the pale. What reaction do you expect? Increased funding, an escalation in military aggression, a change in the discourse. Lets assume for a second you're right that they are terrorist attacks; it changes NOTHING. It was an attack carried out in the fashion of dozens of attacks that predates it. That is, unless you're suggesting that it would indicate that the global war on terrorism is failing and that a new approach that actually attempts to identify the root causes needs to be taken... but I think we both know that's not the case.
The fact remains that terrorism has been a sad reality of the world since the start of the cold war (and the subsequent proliferation of arms and violence), and two airplane bombings (again ASSUMING they are terrorist attacks) is just a drop in the pale. What reaction do you expect? Increased funding, an escalation in military aggression, a change in the discourse. Lets assume for a second you're right that they are terrorist attacks; it changes NOTHING. It was an attack carried out in the fashion of dozens of attacks that predates it. That is, unless you're suggesting that it would indicate that the global war on terrorism is failing and that a new approach that actually attempts to identify the root causes needs to be taken... but I think we both know that's not the case.
QUOTE(lederuvdapac @ Aug 24 2004, 10:35 PM)
One Russian Airliner Crashes, Second Missing
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
I think it would have a mild impact on the war on terror. The impact would be short term.
Last night before i went to bed, i saw that one of the planes (the one that crashed first i believe) signaled a "hijack signal". I think it was the Chechens, because Al-Queda would have no interest in Russia because Russia did not participate in the War in Iraq, and it seems Al-Queda seems interested in those countries that helped the US in some way in Iraq for now.
QUOTE
The first suspect is of course Chechen Rebels. But i am guessing that groups such as Al Queda are not ruled out.
Questions for Debate:
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
If it does turn out to be terrorism...and it turns out to be Chechen Rebels...i think it will be a real shock to Russia and a lot of the world the lengths that extremist groups are now taking. Using airliners looks to be a new tactic for Chechen Rebels...but a something Al Queda knows all too well.
Questions for Debate:
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
If it does turn out to be terrorism...and it turns out to be Chechen Rebels...i think it will be a real shock to Russia and a lot of the world the lengths that extremist groups are now taking. Using airliners looks to be a new tactic for Chechen Rebels...but a something Al Queda knows all too well.
IMHO, if this turns out to be a terrorist act, NO, I do not think it will have an impact on the worldwide war on terror.
If by worldwide war on terror, you mean OUR war on terror worldwide, also NO.
This attack does seem to be the act(s) of copycats, though; possibly to take the main spotlight off of the Chechenians.
I also doubt what we have already heard so far out of the Soviet Union is just about it, unless the Bush camp picks it up and tries to run with it.
If I may offer my opinion, I think you guys are way off. If this does turn out to be a terrorist attack, it will be the first major Chechen rebel attack outside the region since the Moscow Theatre. If it is Al qaeda then it will be the first major Al Qaeda operation against a Russian target.
Either way, I think you will find the war on terror in Russia will change tenor a bit. Though work I have some knowledge and understanding of the Russian internal security service, the FSB, and they have been asking for months now to have their fetters taken off by Putin. Putin, who has instituted a series of authoritarian reforms recently has kept the FSB on a short least for fear of scaring the reformists in the country. Putin himself is former KGB (the precursor to the FSB) and so is aware of the fact that most russians don't like the agency much dispite the change in name.
If this was a terroist attack, Putin will unleash the FSB, and though they are only one third the size of their fore-runner, don't forget that these guys are still the KGB. They demonstrated teir willingnness to get things done in the Mocow theatre incident, and I rather suspect they will display a similar ruthless determination when moving against the planners of this terrorist attack.
Either way, I think you will find the war on terror in Russia will change tenor a bit. Though work I have some knowledge and understanding of the Russian internal security service, the FSB, and they have been asking for months now to have their fetters taken off by Putin. Putin, who has instituted a series of authoritarian reforms recently has kept the FSB on a short least for fear of scaring the reformists in the country. Putin himself is former KGB (the precursor to the FSB) and so is aware of the fact that most russians don't like the agency much dispite the change in name.
If this was a terroist attack, Putin will unleash the FSB, and though they are only one third the size of their fore-runner, don't forget that these guys are still the KGB. They demonstrated teir willingnness to get things done in the Mocow theatre incident, and I rather suspect they will display a similar ruthless determination when moving against the planners of this terrorist attack.
QUOTE(lederuvdapac @ Aug 24 2004, 11:35 PM)
Questions for Debate:
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
No. If this does, in fact, turn out to be terrorism, I don't think that the "worldwide war on terror" (whatever that is--please explain) will be affected.
I remember reading about the high levels of terrorist activity that occured in Russia from just before the turn of the 20th century until 1917. Bombings, kinappings, armed assaults, assasinations, etc... In fact, we were taught that Russia was the beginning of what we now refer to as modern terrorism. The point is: Russia is not new to terrorism, and this little blip on the radar for them will not affect the so-called worldwide war on terror.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Aug 25 2004, 10:09 AM)
If I may offer my opinion, I think you guys are way off. If this does turn out to be a terrorist attack, it will be the first major Chechen rebel attack outside the region since the Moscow Theatre. If it is Al qaeda then it will be the first major Al Qaeda operation against a Russian target.
Either way, I think you will find the war on terror in Russia will change tenor a bit. Though work I have some knowledge and understanding of the Russian internal security service, the FSB, and they have been asking for months now to have their fetters taken off by Putin. Putin, who has instituted a series of authoritarian reforms recently has kept the FSB on a short least for fear of scaring the reformists in the country. Putin himself is former KGB (the precursor to the FSB) and so is aware of the fact that most russians don't like the agency much dispite the change in name.
If this was a terroist attack, Putin will unleash the FSB, and though they are only one third the size of their fore-runner, don't forget that these guys are still the KGB. They demonstrated teir willingnness to get things done in the Mocow theatre incident, and I rather suspect they will display a similar ruthless determination when moving against the planners of this terrorist attack.
Either way, I think you will find the war on terror in Russia will change tenor a bit. Though work I have some knowledge and understanding of the Russian internal security service, the FSB, and they have been asking for months now to have their fetters taken off by Putin. Putin, who has instituted a series of authoritarian reforms recently has kept the FSB on a short least for fear of scaring the reformists in the country. Putin himself is former KGB (the precursor to the FSB) and so is aware of the fact that most russians don't like the agency much dispite the change in name.
If this was a terroist attack, Putin will unleash the FSB, and though they are only one third the size of their fore-runner, don't forget that these guys are still the KGB. They demonstrated teir willingnness to get things done in the Mocow theatre incident, and I rather suspect they will display a similar ruthless determination when moving against the planners of this terrorist attack.
How are we guys way off?
Was it something we said?
I for one don't think AQ has anything even remotely to do with this latest attack, but please tell us what you think.
I can hardly wait for the Republican spin machine to start spinning on this one, especially since the swiftboat vets thingie is losing steam.
Move along, people, there is nothing more to see here.
QUOTE(UserName @ Aug 25 2004, 06:58 PM)
How are we guys way off?
Was it something we said?
I for one don't think AQ has anything even remotely to do with this latest attack, but please tell us what you think.
I can hardly wait for the Republican spin machine to start spinning on this one, especially since the swiftboat vets thingie is losing steam.
Move along, people, there is nothing more to see here.
Was it something we said?
I for one don't think AQ has anything even remotely to do with this latest attack, but please tell us what you think.
I can hardly wait for the Republican spin machine to start spinning on this one, especially since the swiftboat vets thingie is losing steam.
Move along, people, there is nothing more to see here.
What was that all about?
I explained in great deatil how I felt the previous posters were way off, in that I think if this DOES turn out to be an act of terror, it will change the face of the War on Terror, at least inside Russia's Sphere of influence.
As for the involvement of terror at all, I base my hypothetical on the fact that two aircraft went down in mysterious circumstances with no mechanical or electrical failures reported (they recovered the black boxes) and one or both (reports are not clear) had sent in hijack warning before they went down.
As for the rest, it is a hypothetical discussion, not a 'spin machine'.
An update to the story:
Traces of explosives were found on the wreckage of one of the planes:
Traces of explosives were found on the wreckage of one of the planes:
QUOTE
The Federal Security Service (FSB) said the explosive traces were found in the wreckage of the Siberia Airlines Tupelov 154 -- the second plane that crashed.
A hijack alert on the aircraft had been activated before it crashed, killing all 46 on board, Siberia Airlines said on its Web site. The aircraft was bound for the Black Sea resort of Sochi.
The FSB also said it had found data at the Siberia Airlines crash site that could enable them to identify suspects involved in the attack.
The FSB confirmed that a Chechen woman was on board the Siberia Airlines flight, and no friends or relatives had come forward. Her remains have not been found.
She is the only passenger on the flight that has not been inquired after.
A hijack alert on the aircraft had been activated before it crashed, killing all 46 on board, Siberia Airlines said on its Web site. The aircraft was bound for the Black Sea resort of Sochi.
The FSB also said it had found data at the Siberia Airlines crash site that could enable them to identify suspects involved in the attack.
The FSB confirmed that a Chechen woman was on board the Siberia Airlines flight, and no friends or relatives had come forward. Her remains have not been found.
She is the only passenger on the flight that has not been inquired after.
QUOTE
1) If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
I don't think so. I'm with a lot of other posters on that. It's not, after all, America. And that, sadly, matters a lot. America seemed invincible, or at least barely dentable before September 11. Russia has been experiencing attacks for some time.
It is, however, going to affect the Chechens, and I feel sorry for them.
QUOTE
From: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...04412-7616r.htm
Russia kills 60 Chechen rebels this week
Grozny, Russia, Aug. 27 (UPI) -- Russian troops have killed more than 60 Chechen rebels this week, Interfax reported Friday.
"In the course of special operations carried out by federal forces in Grozny and a number of other Chechen regions, more than 60 rebels were killed when their groups were exposed and came under fire," said Ilya Shabalkin, spokesman for the regional headquarters of the anti-terrorist operation in the North Caucusus.
Russia kills 60 Chechen rebels this week
Grozny, Russia, Aug. 27 (UPI) -- Russian troops have killed more than 60 Chechen rebels this week, Interfax reported Friday.
"In the course of special operations carried out by federal forces in Grozny and a number of other Chechen regions, more than 60 rebels were killed when their groups were exposed and came under fire," said Ilya Shabalkin, spokesman for the regional headquarters of the anti-terrorist operation in the North Caucusus.
It is my opinion from everything I've read that what Russia is doing in Chechnya is little better than genocide. The Chechen people have no one to look to for help, either.
If this indeed turns out to be a terrorist act, do you think it will have an impact to the worldwide war on terror?
Gosh, I guess that means that plane crashes in Malibu recently must be related to terror, too...or the one in Mar Vista. NBC
Seeing as how a Chechen woman was on each flight, and each woman is the only victim on each flight who hasn’t been inquired about or claimed, I doubt Al Qaeda is to blame.
The Russia/Chechnya conflict is nothing new-it has been going on since 1994. Terror attacks by Chechens have been ongoing since 1999.
The only impact on the so-called "worldwide war on terror" I can imagine is certain unscrupulous parties using it as an(other) instrument of fear to wield against a gullible populace.
Gosh, I guess that means that plane crashes in Malibu recently must be related to terror, too...or the one in Mar Vista. NBC
QUOTE
Chechen separatists have been blamed for numerous bombings and other attacks in Russia in recent years, including the seizure of hundreds of hostages at a Moscow theater that ended with more than 100 hostages dead.
Russian media report the tentative analysis of the Siberia Airlines wreckage shows the presence of hexogen, an element used by Chechens in past attacks. CNN
Russian media report the tentative analysis of the Siberia Airlines wreckage shows the presence of hexogen, an element used by Chechens in past attacks. CNN
Seeing as how a Chechen woman was on each flight, and each woman is the only victim on each flight who hasn’t been inquired about or claimed, I doubt Al Qaeda is to blame.
QUOTE
Russian officials investigating the crashes of two passenger planes have discovered the remains of two Chechen women thought to be "Black Widows" - suicide bombers given that name because many have lost husbands in the war with Russia. Telegraph
The Russia/Chechnya conflict is nothing new-it has been going on since 1994. Terror attacks by Chechens have been ongoing since 1999.
QUOTE
Chechen rebels were responsible for several suicide bombings in and around Chechnya that caused major loss of civilian life. In December 2002 and May 2003, suicide bombers destroyed administrative buildings in Grozny and Znamenskoe. In June, a suicide bomber drove a truck into a military hospital in Mozdok. Chechen rebel groups may also have been responsible for a series of other suicide bombings in Chechnya and other parts of Russia. Rebel fighters also continued their assassination campaign against civil servants and others who cooperated with the Moscow-appointed administration in Chechnya. Human Rights Watch
The only impact on the so-called "worldwide war on terror" I can imagine is certain unscrupulous parties using it as an(other) instrument of fear to wield against a gullible populace.
QUOTE(ralou @ Aug 27 2004, 09:02 PM)
It is my opinion from everything I've read that what Russia is doing in Chechnya is little better than genocide. The Chechen people have no one to look to for help, either.
How is your quote different from this one from USA Today?
QUOTE
BAGHDAD (AP) — Marines battled Iraqi insurgents for hours in the volatile city of Fallujah, killing at least 13 Iraqis and wounding 14 others in a series of gunfights, mortar barrages and airstrikes, local officials said Friday.
The U.S. military said Saturday that 20 militants were killed. A military spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Saturday that the fighters were killed during clashes between 7:30 p.m. Thursday and 1 a.m. Friday.
Many of those wounded, including at least one child, appeared to be civilians injured by U.S. airstrikes, hospital officials said. The U.S. military said insurgents started the fighting Thursday night by ambushing a patrol and then fled into buildings to continue the battle. The Marines said they suffered no casualties.
The U.S. military said Saturday that 20 militants were killed. A military spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Saturday that the fighters were killed during clashes between 7:30 p.m. Thursday and 1 a.m. Friday.
Many of those wounded, including at least one child, appeared to be civilians injured by U.S. airstrikes, hospital officials said. The U.S. military said insurgents started the fighting Thursday night by ambushing a patrol and then fled into buildings to continue the battle. The Marines said they suffered no casualties.
Oh wait... here is the difference: Russia fights a war on its own territory and not on a territory of a sovereign nation.
Would you call what happens in Fallujah or Najaf a "genocide", ralou?
I find it appaling that some Americans seem to justify any military action imaginable (and justifyibly so in case of Afganistan) because USA was attacked on September 11th. However, when Russia responds to attacks against innocents such as this one , this one, or yesterday's bombing of civilian planes, all of a sudden it's a "genocide".
Disguisting.
EH will back me up here I hope- but in Russia- security is generally seen, culturally, as the most important aspect of goverment, over "civil rights"- Putin is also known in Russia as "the good Stalin"- he has a very supreme grip on power there- if it plays to his political dreams, he will use this as a reason to crush chechnya- which has a great deal of support in Russia- the American equivilent of "kill them all and let god sort them out"
Russian politics are even more complex than US politics- so, I believe it is chechnyans personally- and how it plays out will be completely in the Baliwick of who gains power by what action- it will have very little to do with world politics except to gain advantage in domestic politics- hmmmm- I guess that is the same here eh?
Russian politics are even more complex than US politics- so, I believe it is chechnyans personally- and how it plays out will be completely in the Baliwick of who gains power by what action- it will have very little to do with world politics except to gain advantage in domestic politics- hmmmm- I guess that is the same here eh?
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