Little background info: My father works for the NYC Dept. of Corrections and plans on getting a lot of work in the next couple days with all the protesters who will most likely get arrested. From what he has told me and what i have seen on the news here is what NYC is like currently (for all you out-of-towners)



Now lets look at some of the protests that have already taken place:



These are the protests so far. Dont worry i will get to the questions...

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

2) Protesters plan on making their way to Central Park after their march through the city streets in direct violation of the courts...Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible?

3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC?

Any other comments on the protests are appreciated.

IMHO, i do not understand why people choose to partake in violent or disruptive protests. I would think that it would just make people hate them instead of worrying about what they are actually protesting. Furthermore, if the protesters are sincere about going to Central Park anyway, i fear that a police confrontation is definately possible and things could turn ugly.

That depends on a myriad of factors. How disruptive the protests are, how the media covers the protests (if at all, you can be pretty sure that counter-protesters won't be covered!), and how disruptive the protest is.

QUOTE

No, I don't think they're wise, but they may get lucky. A confrontation with police is their goal, hoping that their protest comes out looking better than "The Man". I don't doubt that some of the protest planners are hoping for a repeat of Kent State....

QUOTE

Fair? Considering that some are protesting for "justice" or "fairness", the question is delightfully ironic. No, I don' think its fair.

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

Less likely.

2) Protesters plan on making their way to Central Park after their march through the city streets in direct violation of the courts...Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible?

No. No one should break the law. They went to court, they asked, the court said no, that is your answer. Appeal if you want, but that is the way the system works.

3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC?[/b]

No.

As to protesting I do not get it. How is holding a sign, beating a drum, stripping and chanting suppose to change. And I know everyone points to Ghandi and says he change things. But Ghandi did not hold a sign, beat a drum, strip, or chant, and Ghandi ended up getting shot for protesting and dying. You could say look at Martin Luther King, Jr. He held signs and chanted. But he didn't beat a drum or strip, and he gave lots of speech that were televised, who is giving a speech in NYC at the protest? You may say Abby Hoffman, he held signs, beat a drum, strip and chanted, and I say, come on, did he really end the vietnam war?

What, the Democrats can't block streets? When did that start?

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation? That depends if they are disruptive or violent. I don't see how it's possible to have a large public protest and not have it be disruptive. What are the protesters supposed to do, sit quietly in Weehawken? Disruptive protests cause people to notice and as long as nobody is hurt I don't see any problems.
Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible? It's a public park, I don't see any reason they should be kept out so long as they leave the racoons alone. It's not like there's any security reasons to keep them out. It's possible that the police could try to keep people out but that's not an easy task. I would be surprised if the the NYPD does much about Central Park protests.
3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC? It's just as fair as Bush putting his convention in NYC and making things difficult for the residents of NYC.

Well, any event that is held at the same time as the convention is going to be disruptive to some degree. For example, I am sure for some delegates the U.S. Open will be a major inconvenience. They'll just have to deal with it. They chose to have a convention in a city where Dems to Repubs ration is 5 to 1, they chose a city which holds another major sporting event at the same time... they'll have to deal with inconveniences. I am sure they would have less protests if they held their convention in Austin, TX. But I guess there're were special reasons to have a Republican convention in NYC in the beginnig of September.

Every single protester, even the most peaceful one, is a headache for NYCPD. I don't think there're going to be any car torchings or broken windows, if that's what you mean by "violent". However, the crowds are not going to like if the police will not let them go into Central Park, but I really don't see this happening unless Bloomberg and the NYC Police Chief want sparks to start flying.

1. Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

More likely, controversy sells. If you take a look at the hot topics right now such as Kerry's Vietnam record and then bounce that up against other important stories in the nation that aren't getting coverage like the fact that the poverty level is increasing, the economy isn't as strong as we think it is, and the fact that more soldiers have died in Iraq in 2004 so far than in 2003 during "major combat operations" you have to wonder why that is the case.

The reason for that is because the whole Kerry and Vietnam thing is good ol fashioned American scandal and controversy, people buy news papers, tune in their TV and surf websites when you broadcast things like that.

If you want more examples, just take a look at where the majority of us have been spending our time here on AD the past few weeks. I'll give you a hint, it is on a few topics in the election 2004 forum despite the many other things that are going on that have far more impact on our daily lives.

I'm predicting that the RNC is going to be a media circus and during that time the whole Kerry and Vietnam thing is going to lose most if not all the momentum it had in the press. You are going to see clashes between protestors and police, people will be commenting on how much New York hates Bush, people will be commentating on the commentators and it will all turn into one giant circus. I guarantee that these guys will likely get some attention during the protests.

So whether you think the protests are productive or right, the simple fact is that we all love good controversy and we vote with our wallets daily. So yes, the protestors will be successful because 1) It will take the focus off the whole Kerry debacle and 2) It will take the focus off whatever message the Republicans try to convey.

Ah yes, the time honored tradition of civil disobedience. I think it can be effective. Maybe you've heard of some of the practitioners of civil disobedience, people like Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks and Gandhi Civil disobedience comes in many forms, and it would be naiive to discount the collective power that protests have in a movement.



It's interesting how in the "most free country in the world" restrictons of free speech are getting more and more restrictive. I think that those engaging in civil disobedience are standing up for their right to protest, a time honored tradition in our country's history.



I'm sure it was difficult for those owners of Woolworth's and other lunch counters when African-Americans did a sit in there too. Unfortunately, justice and progress aren't always comfortable for everyone.

Also, the majority of activists that attend these protests are non-violent. There will always be some fringe elements, a few criminals who will join in a protest to try to get away with something, or even the occasional undercover folks who pose as protesters and try to incite riots or vandalism so that law enforcement can detain a group from their rights and try to give the protesters a negative image.

I think they won't be noticed at all unless their actions prove "inconvenient" for somebody somewhere.

Confrontations with police are always possible; it comes with the territory. They are even better when someone like Mike Wallace, who is in his eighties, is handcuffed and hauled in for booking. It makes the police look as ridiculous as they sometimes are with their enforcement tactics. Gotta watch out for those dangerous senior citizens!

Sometimes protestors opt to take calculated risks in order to get more people to hear what they have to say. It is the restrictive atmosphere that makes it almost imperative to practice civil disobedience. This country is becoming a police state when it curtails the freedoms of speech and peaceful assembly ostensibly to protect us. Protect us from what?

What is a disrupter of the peace anyway? Someone who plays gut-rattling bass when you're trying to sleep, or someone who threatens your person, or someone who decides to obnoxiously voice a protest over what they perceive is unfair?

Raucous protest is part of the fabric of this country. The Boston Tea Party really ticked off the Brits in charge here, but it was meant to. A statement was made, and for that reason it stands in history. And we remember it had to do with taxes.

The police are going to have to be careful. I remember Kent State and the way the ROTC fired into a crowd of anti-war demonstrators, killing four. The eyes of the world will be upon the "peacekeepers" as well as the demonstrators.

Something tells me the police elsewhere in the city acted as traffic cops to allow passage in an orderly fashion along the route, but when it came near MSG the police there decided to make some arrests. This of course snarls up the flow of the bikers which in turn snarls up traffic. It is not unusual for NYPD to order someone in tightly packed crowd to move, and then arrest them when they can't (becasue the crowd is so dense they have no place to go). And of course any officers stationed nearby to control the traffic flow will jump in at the scene of the arrest, leaving their posts at the intersections to control the flow of the bikers.



file:///G:/Pages/'Whose%20streets%20Our%20streets'.htm


Apparently they also decided to go with the heavy hand down in the east village also.


file:///G:/Pages/Cops%20bust%20bike%20protest.htm

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

Oh, I think they’ll get plenty of attention, but whether or not the point gets across depends on one’s political leanings.

2) Protesters plan on making their way to Central Park after their march through the city streets in direct violation of the courts...Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible?

I just watched a piece on CBS Sunday Morning, and Mayor Bloomberg has denied protesters access to Central Park…one of his concerns is the grass, if ya can believe that. As far as I’m concerned, we still live in a free country, and if the protesters travel peacefully along the route, they should be left alone. That being said, I’m sure they won’t, because there will be a lot of nervous law enforcement personnel with a lot of weapons. Emotions and tension will be very high, and I can only hope that we don’t see a replay of the Chicago DNC of 1968.

3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC?

I think it is unfair to characterize the protesters as “disruptors of the peace”. We enjoy the luxury of free speech in this country, and expressions of same. A (PDF report) NY Times Poll shows that 71% of New Yorkers don’t approve of the job George Bush is doing. I’d say that most New Yorkers are more sympathetic to the protesters than they are to the convention. Even the 9/11 victims’ families are split on the RNC coming to town.

246 protesters have already been arrested. Opinions differ depending who you listen to, of course. The police say the cyclists blocked access to a hospital; the cyclists say the police caused more of a problem. Same as it ever was....

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

Less likely, the majority of people do not like property damage, flag burning or vagrancy. They had a peaceful protest earlier showing 970 pairs of boots this is fine IMO, when they get out and start trashing the place or antagonizing cops is when I draw the line.




2) Protesters plan on making their way to Central Park after their march through the city streets in direct violation of the courts...Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible?

Of course, there is no reason why people in NY should have to pay for the damages caused by imported protestors . NYC paid 18million dollars to have that particular part of the park redone these "protestors" can't even put up the bond required. Not only that but why should native New Yorkers be forced to foot the bill for these people and be denied use of the park they paid for with THEIR tax dollars.

I'd like to add one thing: the protesters who went to Seattle were supposed to have been "peaceful" as well, but they weren't.

I think that in one way, NYC may be the absolute best choice for the RNC. Heck, if they would have held it in Des Moines, hordes of protestors would have shown up, or Los Angeles. So, dealing with protesters is a given.

Unlike the Des Moines PD, which is unknown, or LAPD, which has a bad public reputation, NYPD probably has the best national, and a pretty good local, reputation of any police department. Which means unruly protesters aren't going to be able to trade on public distrust of the police nearly as much. The average local joe isn't going to be very tolerant of protesters mucking with his commute, etc. Disruption, at this time, in NYC, has huge potential for backfiring on the protesters. HUGE.

BTW, I wonder if these protesters will get any mainstream media coverage?War Has Never Solved Anything

There is very little chance that these protests will all go off without a hitch. There will be mass arrests and probably some bloodshed. It comes with the territory. I think it will all serve to weaken the arguments put forth by the various protest groups.

I only hope that the blood that flows comes those who came with the intent to cause violence and mayhem, and not from some poor innocent dupe or a cop who's being forced to work without a contract.

Staging a three-ring circus that disrupts the lives of law-abiding citizens is not going to sway opinion in your favor. Just the opposite, it will turn most Americans even further against you.

Well, they're already starting to act up.

News reports were showing pictures of a fire the protesters had set in the street just abit ago.

Passion51



That comment "staging a three-ring circus" happens to be one of the basic freedoms that us Americans are entitled to.

It is your right and my right to hold a sign, march peacefully to express our belief or view.

Or would you like to live in Burma,North Korea,Iran,Sudan,etc and not have any freedom to express your views.

There have been too many good men and women that have given their LIVES so you would have that right.

Chiefdork



Have you ever considered how much money the Merchants and people of NYC will lose because of the RNC.

I checked the internet and there are an unusually large amount of hotel rooms that are vacant during the RNC and reservations for all the top restaurants or clubs or below average.

So I wouldn't consider the protesters any more harmful to NYC than RNC. Would you?

New York is a city of the very rich and the very poor. There are one and a half million New Yorkers making less than $18,000. That doesn't count the huge vagrant population New York has. All in all there are millions of New Yorkers with nothing better to do than protest. Not only that but public transportation means all you need is a $2 metro card and you can protest anywhere. Plus the overwhelming majority of New Yorkers are democrats. All this dramatically increases the number of protesters to a number that no other city can compete with.

I don't see these people takeing up the slack, 250,00 people and they want to live like vagrants in Central Park or squat with whomever will let them do so. How much of the mass exodus has to do with these protestors?


I could also add that the New Yorkers are not worried about the RNC members breaking glass, tangeling with police, purposely delaying subway cars and public transportation, or various other acts of vandalism.

Well popeye, I wasn't talking about peaceful protests. But then, I think you know that.

It really is a shame that some people refuse to respect the rights of others in their haste to express their views. They only serve to alienate the very people they want to convert.

How ironic that Bloomberg decries more the trampling of the green grass in Central Park (So let's give Bloomberg Christie Todd Whitman's old position, the one where she was dumped for trying to be effective!) than the continued loss of life in the Middle East (especially in occupied Iraq) or the continuing state of joblessness in so many places here. Ask me if I would rather have my grass trampled or have my son stationed over there, and GOODBYE GREEN GRASS...

But that is the whole reason for the protests, isn't it? People making a noise about loss of personal freedoms, a costly and unnecessary war that has cost lives and continues to do so, and the greatest net loss of jobs since Herbert Hoover as companies continue to outsource so they can pay low wages and no benefits.

So let the GOP'ers light their stogeys with greenbacks (where they can) and reflect on how hard life might be for them if they were unemployed or not getting such fat tax breaks. For that reason alone they back Bush. And let them inflate the balloons and buy the souvenirs all made in China. "Let them eat cake" indeed...

I am in favor of protests that might disrupt someone's routine, but whose objectives are to improve the lot of the many. These protestors don't have the wherewithal to wine and dine the GOP leadership in the manner to which they have become accustomed. They do not have that luxury. So they take their causes where the unprivileged have always taken them-->to the streets.

Oh, the poor green grass of Central Park, or alternatively, FESCUE AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON...

Care to provide sources?

Because this is in stark contrast the news reports earlier saying hotels are at near full capacity.





http://www.hotel-online.com/News/2004_Aug_...1093623746.html

Nice try in attempting to paint the RNC as a disaster for NYC economically though, I'm sure you're hoping it is.

Oh ya, group called the Black Bloc started that fire earlier. Not only that, they began pelting officers with rocks and bottles along with impeding the firefighters trying to get to the fire, sending one officer to the hospital with a head injury. Number of them are now jailed and are facing felony charges.

OmiGAWD! I just saw film footage of the protests in NYC!! WOW, that is one shi...boatload of people!!! Although I expected a large protest turnout, I had no idea how many there were (and lots of creative protest signs-hee hee)! One lady from Florida had a zinger quote: seeing as how her vote doesn't count in Florida, so she had to fly to NY. Teachers from Georgia, small businesspeople from New Jersey...I think this is going to make a HECK of an impression.

I just hope the anarchists behave themselves....

ROFLMAO!!!

The Battle of New York, 2004??



More than 50% of New Yorkers expect some violence. If nothing else, this is likely to make for some dramatic street theater.

Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

Less.

Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peaceful protesters and residents of NYC?

Well, unless I read it wrong DefeattheDems said NYC stands to make $150+ million with the influx of people. I don't think fair enters the equation with businesses, though. Protesters can definitely cross a line, but why the condemnation other than this is your party/ideology? I wish protesters at Boston weren't condemned to a damn cage like they were animals. As much as people like to point to Mohandas Gandhi and say, "there's your role model," they seem to forget he disrupted colonial rule by "standing in the way." Is marching through a public area without a permit that risqué?



Here's the visitor's guide to the article above. If by illegal activity they mean marching through Madison Square Garden without a permit good on them. Other forms of disruption like slingshots at officers or horses and tampering with security devices I don't condone, and wouldn't care if those involved were charged with accessory to terrorism if something happens as a result of their actions.

Yawn. I was there and it was boring. Was hoping for some action, acts of civil disobedience, anything to make an interesting photograph and overall I thought it was pretty tame. 200 some odd arrests for the amount of people there is really small potatoes. So perhaps the action will be later this week...

Can't say whether the protester's got their point across, for me they did the opposite. I was hoping for some Kerry energy mixed in with their anti-Bush mantra but it was apparent that the only link holding these protester's together was the "anyone but Bush" slogan.

I will say that I don't think they had the number of protester's that they were hoping for. While there were a lot of people it wasn't really all that. In fact I would guess that the anti-war march had more people then this one. I was proud to see that capitalism was taking charge, there seemed to be quite a bit of buck making on anti bush paraphernalia. My favorite small business person had a microphone and was yelling to the crowd, if you hate Bush then you will love this shirt, last chance to own one of your own.

1. Less. People who support their causes will of course applaud their heroic actions but people like me will just laugh at their idiotic behavior.

2. You can protest if you want but you can't break the law. The law says not to go to the park, so don't. They probably will though, there are tons of protestors who would absolutely love to get beat by a cop on national television. They could brag about it for the rest of their lives.

3. It's not fair. I'm sure most of the people there are planning on protesting peacefully but it only takes a few to ruin it for the rest of them.

Last night on CNN it was mentioned that protestors carried hundreds of flag-draped cardboard "coffins," to protest the war, I am sure. Sounds like they are energetic and creative. Is anybody paying attention?

Do they need to be disruptive to get our attention?

Why were you looking for 'some action'? I'm not sure your motivation is clear. The excitement? The photo opportunity? The message? The blood? Just what was it you were looking for and to what purpose?

It seems to me that tens of thousands had a chance to express their views for the world to see and they did it peacefully. I think that is a good thing. Even though I disagree with most of their ideas, I respect their right to express them. And I admire their restraint in doing so peacefully.

Less, disruptive/violent protests will hurt their "cause", or whatever you'd like to call it. That's not to say that the peaceful demonstrations are going to change the country. The only coherent chant that I could hear from the demonstrators was "The people...united...can never be defeated." What? 250,000 people, marching how many blocks to say something as anti-profound as that...

Doubt it, there will be 1 and a third policemen for every three people, I think New York's finest will keep it calm.

Comes with the territory, if you choose to protest along with 249,999 of your closest friends, chances are, one or two of them will try to get rowdy.

CP

Actually, the RNC delegates (and their enourages and limosuines!!) themselves will probably be more of a problem. These people will be changing and flooding the transportation facilities as well as forcing regular New Yorkers to walk through a gauntlet of security.

Further, more New Yorker's actually favor protesting than the do the President:



When one considers the above, with the fact that nearly half of the 9/11 families do not want the convention to be in the city...

well, one is left with the question: Why is the GOP holding the event in NY in the first place--especially if they aren't really wanted?

It must be purely for political gain....oh wait, only democrats use tragedies and war for that! (sarcasm)

I'm sure that there were more than a couple of Bostonians unhappy that the DNC gave them such an honor as well.


Now wait, hold on here...You mean to tell me, that the Republicans [a political party] are holding a political convention somewhere...for...political gain. You must be pullin' my leg.

CP

I don't doubt that there were a couple of unhappy Bostonians. However, they weren't the people that the political party was exploiting (like the 9/11 tragedy victims).

I don't necessarily believe that they exploited the victims or their families, but that's for another thread.

But to connect the Sept.11th families to this one...Listen, I feel terrible for these families, it really was unspeakable what happened to them, that said, I don't think that they should run New York City. If the Repubs want to have their convention there, and it's okay with the mayor [the pseudo-Republican, I might add], then why not? As I said Boston wasn't a fan of the DNC in their backyard, and frankly, I'm not sure what city would want any "NC" in their home. However, I don't believe that holding the opinion of these Sept. 11th families on a podium over everyone else's is the thing to do.

CP

Oh brudder.

I watched the protest march on CSPAN yesterday...all 4 1/2 hours of it. I just want to congratulate the NYC police department for the way they handled the event. They were both fair and efficient. As for the protesters they were 99% peaceful. I'm starting to think this is a disappointment to the RNC since they were hoping to make Kerry look bad if thinks went wrong.

Oh well..I say it was a success and went better than law enforcement and the protest organizers had hoped it would.

NYC rocks.

NYC wanted to host the convention...so the Repubs said ok. I do not think it is right for someone to say that a political convention must stay exclusive to where they are heavily favored. Not too democratic either. I want them in NYC and that covers it. Just because NYC is very liberal...doesnt mean there arent any conservative people.

Furthermore, they are not exploiting 9/11 any more than the Democrats. I believe they will have a moment of silence or something for it but thats it. Maybne Guiliani will talk about it...but the guy was there, he lived it and knows it just as much as anyone in the country.

Back on topic, yes the protests so far were ok except for a few people. Some of the slogans and posters were pretty misguided but it was ok. I just cannot wait for the anti-protesters group Protest Warrior to show some of the higlights of their experience during the protest.

When I awoke this morning I was expecting to see widespread carnage and destruction in NYC according to some of our friends on AD. Those wild liberals sure aren't living up to their name.

Even Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly made this comment:



PS. Paladin Elspeth, I believe Central Park still has its green grass.

When I awoke this morning I was expecting to see widespread carnage and destruction in NYC according to some of our friends on AD. Those wild liberals sure aren't living up to their name.

Liberals, what has happened?! Why are you changing the order of things?! WE NEED CARNAGE! How can the morning news be interesting without wild liberals being beat up?

I marched yesterday and a lot of people marching were your average neighbor-type. Not the hysterical A-Anarchists predicted.

I also was marching right next to the dragon that caught fire.

What people are not saying or discussing is that the march contained many, many different types of people. There were pro-Kerry, pro-Nader, pro-communist, socialist, vegetarian, gay, right-wing and foreigners also marching together. Everyone got along.

Thanks for the info.

1) Do you think disruptive protests are more likely or less likely to get the protester's point across to the nation?

No, I don't. It might scare some of the right-wing Bush supporters in rural areas, however.

2) Protesters plan on making their way to Central Park after their march through the city streets in direct violation of the courts...Do you believe that the protesters are wise in doing so and could a confrontation with police be possible?

Anything is possible. In my mind I'm not sure of the point of a rally when the march makes the point of protest.

3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC?

I don't think that the disrupters are doing anything that is hurting NYC. The protest is serious business -- but so is war.

3) Do you think it is fair that the disrupters of the peace make things so difficult for the peacful protesters and residents of NYC?

Well, it seems as if all the predictions of mayhem were off-base and any "disruption" of daily life was minimal. The protesters even received kudos from the NYC police commissioner:


Edited to add - DOH! Sorry for duplicating what popeye already posted-ooooops.

Well, so much for the integrity of the NYPD during this event.....

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/227251p-195120c.html

Well, so much for the integrity of the NYPD during this event.....

I fail to see how this hinders the NYPD? I mean a law is a law.

Did you miss the part where Dawson is not a protester and the city gave the director a permit to film during the convention or are you shaking pom-poms for the sake of shaking pom-poms?

They weren't protesting, they were filming on 8th ave, the protests was on 7th. 7th ave. can be seen from 8th ave. but there is no indication that the 2 activities were somehow connected.

I do not care if they were or were not protesting.

The fact that they are among a group of people and people, when in groups are in a group, people are emotional animals that will strike at anything. Don't neglect the power of the mob and the mob mentality.

The police have to do whatever they can to keep order. AND she was not allowed to wear a mask. Now show me where in the permit the director is waving it reads it is okay to break the laws and famous people are allowed to wear a mask where others are not?

Dawson wasnt breaking the law and the integrity of the NYPD is not damaged in any way. It was a misunderstanding and a non-issue. Get over it.