Chew on this. The FY 2002 federal unified budget deficit was $159 billion dollars according to the Treasury Department. This however, is a fraud and an accounting trick. The real budget deficit, which the Treasury calls the general revenue budget which excludes the Social Security Trust Fund which has its own revenue stream, recorded a $317.3 billion deficit in FY 2002, more than twice the official deficit. In all probability these numbers are also fudged, and it is even worse. The REAL reason the government is racking up such massive budget deficits has nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorist attacks for the process was well underway before it. The REAL reason the government is racking up such deficits is because U.S. individual income taxes paid fell $138 billion, 13.7 percent, from 2001, which are the largest item of taxes paid in the budget and as a consequent they have sharply pulled down overall receipts in the the largest absolute fall or general revenues in American history. Individual income taxation revenues in the United States are in a freefall because the U.S. physical economy is collapsing inward upon itself - devouring its own infrastructure especially in places such as California.

This is JUST THE BEGINNING of reality sinking in, four decades of speculative mania and IOUs blowing up into disaster. FY 2003 began in October 2002 and is the FIRST month of the 2003 budget. This past October, the U.S. budget racked up a $53.99 billion deficit on the "unified" basis, the sham budget that includes the Social Security trust fund which the government has its hands all in, and a $57.7 billion deficit on the general revenue basis ALONE. In essence, in one single month the U.S. unified budget ran a deficit a third of the entire 2002 unified budget, in just one month. The way we are running down the road now we could end up with a budget deficit of roughly half a trillion dollars if not much more do to the Iraq war in 2003. Take into consideration the soaring prices of commodities due to the rigor mortis of the U.S. economy and the fact that the Bush Administration is supposedly about to launch a War in Iraq, and I for one am not even sure if there will be a war in Iraq yet, that could cost upwards of 300 billion to 1 trillion dollars.

*********

I wrote this about a week ago. We now have the numbers in for the second month of FY 2003. The U.S. Treasury Department just the other day announced that the U.S. budget, when reported on a unified budget basis, amassed a $59.10 billion deficit in November 2002. The October deficit was $53.99 billion alone. Thus, just for the first two months of FY 2003 the U.S. Government has shot up an enormous combined budget deficit of $113.09 billion dollars. This is the unified fraud budget once again as well an includes the social security trust fund with its own revenue stream so it is larger than that. The budget deficit for ALL of FY 2002 was $159 billion dollars. The way things are going now we could match that in just the first three months of the FY 2003 budget and there are all sorts of wild cards going into next year. Now we know that December was the worst holiday season in the past 30 years so we should expect the December FY 2003 deficit to be bad as well. Very interesting times ahead.

After WWII the USA had a debt to GDP ratio of 122%. Did not slow down the post WWII economy. The post WWII economy was a much smaller, less flexible economy then we have today.

In an economy that is worth hundreds of trillions of dollars, 100 billion dollars is not a problem. The numbers on the federal budget deficit are accurate, and the ruling powers have always added in the Social Security Trust Fund to make the gap look smaller. One answer is stopping the rate of growth of social programs, military, medicaid spending. Medicare, Medicaid is what will do this country in. Everyone wants to see the doctor, but wants someone else to pay for it, that is the mentality of most americans. Everyone wants to live forever. The increased life span of Americans, causing a huge drain on the Social Security Fund will also bankrupt us. If I live to be 65, which would be in 2037, the age to start drawing SS will no doubt be up to 72 or 75.

Though we are probably careening off-topic in an entropic sort of rush, I couldn't let this one go.



You make it sound so simple. You also make it sound like the only reason these programs exist is because "lazy" people don'twant to pay for their own health care. FIRST of all, most Americans do pay for their health care, either directly or through the insurance companies. They may grumble about the cost, but what other choice is there? SECONDLY, have you seen the spiraling costs of welfare in this country? Did you know there are many, many people who have no insurance, and cannot afford health care (gasp)? Deciding that these people "want" someone else to pay for their medical care both wrong and mean-spirited. Do you propose that all health care be pay-as-you-go? Get rid of Medicare/Medicaid, and then... what? What is your solution? That if people just want it badly enough they will stop being poor? Or that if they want it badly enough their families just won't get sick?

The solution, for most people who have this sort of attitude, is to not care what happens to those people. The actual "mentality of most Americans", sadly, is to look out for number one - and everyone else be damned.

My father was adamantly opposed to Medicare and Medicaid during Great Society days. Seven heart by-passes later, when he and my mother are absolutely dependant on Medicare to cover their astronomical medical and pharmaceutical bills, we don't hear so much about it any more. Realizing that without such programs, they'd either be bankrupt or dead - if not both - his position has liberalized somewhat over the past decade or so.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to oppose social welfare programs - until you need them. Give a thought to those who need them today - to those whose children would be starving to death right now without them; to those who could not refill their prescription this afternoon without them; to those who would be refused a life-saving operation tonight without them.

Let's look at why health costs are spiraling out of control. Malpractice insurance is so high in some places, that in West Virginia 4 hospitals had most of their doctors walk out on them. This happened LAST WEEK. They literally can't afford to practice and pay their insurance bills. WHo is to blame, not the doctors, but the HMO's that employ most of them these days. And that IS my solution, exactly what you scoffed at, pay as you go. I mean think, you use a service, then you pay for it, what a radical concept, but wait I'm so mean spirited that I deign to suggest that people pay their bills. I guess the liberal mind set feels that it is cruel and unusual to make people pay for bills they incur. I guess the doctor's, nurses, technicians that provide medical services don't need to get paid. How socialistic, expecting other people to save lives while delaying the payment. You make it sound like you care about everyone, the pity that not everyone has healthcare, but that is not true. If someone has an emergency, any hospital they go to has to treat them. Fact. But should I finance people that go to the doctor for cold and flu and pimples, heck no, that is abusing the system.

I believe a pay as you go insurance system is more of a way to go. Our present cost system does not let us be consumers at the doctor's office. I find that it is almost impossible to get accurate information about how much a procedure or operation will cost (all costs, all doctors, all lab tests) before I get something done for me or my family.

In fact our insurance system is almost a reverse market. We try to get the best insurance we can afford, or get as benefits, or get given to us by a federal or state agency, and then we try to receive the maximum value out of that insurance. Our incentive is to get the most out of policy. To get the best and most expensive doctors, the newest medicine, and the latest procedure.

I do not always buy the top of the line at the store. I look for my level of quality at a reasonable price. In medicine we do not have any incentive to behave this way.

From HeaatherRob: Medicare, Medicaid is what will do this country in


You brought it up HR, Why don't you answer Quark and Wertz?

Get rid of Medicare and Medicaid and then what? And while you're at it, what about people like Kisov?

Madtown

Madtown my solution for the financial problems concerning healthcare are as follows. For the 40 million estimated people that have no health insurance, they have to make a choice. I bet many of those people could afford insurance, but choose to spend their money on other things. Much like people that make a claim on their car or house insurance, but don't use the money to fix the car or house. You can't legislate fiscal responsibility. I had a job that offered a healthcare plan I thought was too expensive. I made a choice. I paid out of pocket for doctor bills. That's what freedom is, the American way, one can choose to spend one's money any darn way one wants. How arrogant and presumptious to institute a socialized system that removes the choice. I use my inteligence to make good decisions, like not to smoke, do drugs, to eat healthy foods. So I rarely have to visit the doctor. But my mother in law drinks literally a gallon of coffee a day, smokes a pack of cigarrettes a day, cooks very unhealthy food. SO no wonder she constantly complains of headaches, earaches, fatigue, and a sundry of other ailments. People like this cost employers billions yearly through lost time at work and with their multitude of insurance claims. All I ask is for people to take responsibility for why they don't have this or that, instead of expecting someone else to pay

Would you believe it HR, there actually are people who don't drink or smoke, people that do exercise and eat right and get a proper amount of sleep and STILL have hypertension, diabeties, heart trouble, arthritis, MS, TB, just to name a few maladies.

There are children born with devastating diseases, whose parents may be unable to work because of the care these children require.

No matter how many preventive measures these people practice, they still have the disease. It's called heredity. It's in the genes. I don't think pay as you go is an option for them. It's not as simple as you make out.

I believe if you really thought about this you would not be so smug.

Madtown

I didn't intend to be smug. I honestly posted what I felt. Did you not get the gist of what I was saying. I believe at least half the uninsured people in this country could afford insurance if they made better financial choices. Too many people live above their means. If a family decides that a 32 inch tv is more important than health insurance. So be it. That's an adult making that choice. Someone had the idea of a pay as you go insurance plan. That's sounds excellent to me. I also feel that procedures and tests done by doctors are kept too secret, like they are trying to hide something. If people paid out of pocket, a lot of these unnecessary tests would not be done. As for your comment about people with hereditary diseases and the like. Not everyone is born healthy. Not everyone can live to 80, 90 years old. That's a big reason why the world is so overpopulated today. People want to do anything to extend their life. Like we are God, how arrogant and sinful.

Really that bastard who invented antibiotics is to blame for higher healthcare costs.

Pretty funny Hugo!!!


HR said:
As for your comment about people with hereditary diseases and the like. Not everyone is born healthy. Not everyone can live to 80, 90 years old. That's a big reason why the world is so overpopulated today. People want to do anything to extend their life. Like we are God, how arrogant and sinful.

So, people who are not given the gift of health as you were, should just accept that and go without health care if they can't afford it. They shouldn't even try to live to the age of 80 or so. Talk about arrogant and sinful and SMUG!

I'm on my way to 80 and I'm no where near ready to buy the farm, and there's nothing sinful about it. It's sinful not to take care of ones health and take advantage of all medical know how that's out there.

Not everyone who can't afford health care owns a big house, car and tv. I hate the way you generalize.

I hope you won't be upset to learn that I just finished reading 20 ways to live longer.

Madtown

Over the past year of going without health insurance, I've discovered an alternative for most everything except major surgery: homeopathic treatments, a la the health food stores.

I've got a problem with thrombosis and phlebitis (blood circulation in the legs issues). The doctor told me I'd have to take all this blood thinner junk, be monitored for a long period, and rack up thousands of bucks of debt I can't pay.

But, for about $14 every month or so, I can get this mixture of Vipera and other mysterious hippie-dippie herbals concocted just for what I have. The doctor did not bring this up, but the friendly clerk at the health food store did. Most of one leg had clotted up (life-threatening), and one hour after taking this stuff, it started to clear. Totally gone in a week.

This had happened to the other leg while I did have insurance. Had to self-inject junk for two weeks before improving. Man, the doctor had ka-chinging slot machine windows for eyes--figured, probably, my new Beemer cometh!

We are being *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. ***'d by the AMA and drug companies, IMO, for most of the treatments prescribed through normal channels. I now trust the hippie-dippies more than the doctors!

Don't get me wrong though. I know there are conditions herbals can't treat like cancers and heart attacks. I just think that something like 80% of our maladies can be treated through homeopathic means.

Your doctor does not want you to know this. His (or her) Beemer is at stake

And to swing this gracefully back on subject, it isn't the taxpayer that's making Medistuff such a big item -- it is the AMA and drug companies who lobby for such programs. In fact, I declare that all the blame for the state of the federal budget falls squarely on the shoulders of those who profit from it. Medistuff might be scams, but the people were scammed too, to accept the programs.

Question:

Why don't the government simply raise taxes and make health care free for all?

Answer:

Because those who can afford to be treated are too greedy and selfish to subsidise the treatment of those who cannot.

JonBon - Perhaps you should start a new thread in the health care debate forum.

Oops - sorry. I got so engaged in the sway of the thread that i forgot what it was supposed to be about.

I is fick!

oh you mean lthings like rent, insurance for the car (so I can get to work and make all this cash you speak of) food, electricity, water, and other living expenses? most people make enough to survive and that is it. jeez

and the topic wasn't medicare it was the economic catasrophy we are having.

taxes take up something like 55% percent of most peoples income. the amount of the national debt is $6,398,607,223,793.01 (thats Trillion with a T)- ( http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm ) and that is probably not at all accurate. (there is speculation that the true debt is 14-16 TRILLION dollars and the the book burning that has occured will make enron look small) this is more then can ever be paid off and exceeds all income taxe several times over. this is money we owe to the coporation known as the federal reserve, which is where ALL your taxes really go. (the federal reserve is a private, for profit corporation and the IRS their collection agency, but that belongs elsewhere) the income tax is a fraud.

america is bankrupt, sitting on the edge of finacial collapse. this is the purpose of the war in Iraq, money. (there are several trillion dollars worth of oil under iraq alone, and saudi arabia and iran sit on quite a lot as well (these three countries sit on 80% of the ME oil) it is so sad americans are so blind to what is happening.

Whats even more sad is this dribble and people who believe it.

Darcaine