I recently had a conversation with a rather Republican belief system and I never knew how ######ed up you guys could be. Now I will say that after some dialogue between us his words were softened and not as bad as the original statement but I'm wondering how other Republican's, Democrats , or whatever you are feel about the way to raise a child. Whether you think that the mother should stay at home, if daycare is ok and so on...I'm just tossing it out there...

How can you have a conversation with a belief system?

How can't you?

I'm not trying to debate it or to disprove someone, I am just curious as a part of the United States of America to think what the rest of the country thinks...

Seeing as I was the one on the other end of the original conversation, I feel I should respond.

My views are very clear, and always have been.

The preferred way to raise a child is to have the mother stay at home and raise it. I'm not saying this is always to be the case. This is the preferred case. History has proven this.

It is indisputable that throughout history, man has provided for his family. He has hunted for them, provided them shelter, and protected them from danger. Woman has raised the children, and made the necessary preparations for the man to go out and hunt, i.e. make food and maintain the house. This is all fact.

Now I'm not saying that women belong at home and men belong at work. I'm saying that a child needs a full time parent. I don't care which parent it is.

And I'm not saying that women can't have a career. They are absolutely free to do so. My contention is that the family, as a whole, make the proper decision and have round-the-clock supervision for their number one responsibility, their child.

Of course, my preference would be that the woman stays home. This is a proven winner. It has worked since the beginning of humanity itself, and will continue to work through the ages.

With the progression of time, and the "progression of thought", if you consider it progress, society's views of men and women have obviously changed.

Many people no longer believe that a child needs a parent around to raise them. The parent can simply dump the child off at daycare, and go work for their luxury possessions. Sure, a $6 an hour employee can raise a child better than that child's own parent. Of course, they love the child just as much as the parent. That is, when they aren't busy doing the same for the 20 other kids whose parents also have their priorities wrong.

Daycare is bad for development. If you've ever been to a daycare facility, you would know this. These poor kids fight for your attention. They get aggressive in their attempt to gain attention, positive or negative. And when they get aggressive, what happens? Nothing. They should be disciplined. Their parent should (can of worms here) give them a good swat on their behind and shame them. But since these kids are at daycare, they learn, from an early age, how to manipulate people. And they also learn that acting out and acting aggressive is not punished. This is bad for kids.

But what about the single parents. Well, I only have pity for single parents whose spouse has passed. Otherwise, it is choice. Bad decisions lead to bad situations.

But people change. What if the husband cheats on the wife, or vice versa? Well, it looks you made a poor choice when picking your spouse. Your poor judgment led you to the situation. Maybe if you picked your spouse based on a matching set of core beliefs, you would not be in that situation.

Regardless, the loser in that situation is the child. With out a doubt, divorce has a negative effect on kids. As a first hand example, I can say that I learned how to manipulate my parents. I could play one against the other to get whatever I wanted. I still carry that trait (can you tell?). I may not have had the opportunity to exploit the situation had the situation not existed in the first place.

So now, you say, what about true "single parents" - the women who never married the father of their child. Well, it looks like they made some incredibly poor choices. But again the child suffers.

To minimize the suffering, I think there should be a few rules for single mothers. First off, the child has 1/2 the parents, so in theory you need to spend twice the time with your child for him/her to get the same amount of parental exposure. Since that's not possible, single parents need to do the next best thing. No, that isn't dating. The last thing that kid needs to see is their parent cycling through partner upon partner. What the child needs is a direct relative as it's part-time caregiver.

Family. That means a lot to me, and it should to you, too. Not because I say so, but because without family, you wouldn't exist. You owe a lot to your family. You need to be there for them, and they need to do the same.

If you are a single mother, you need to do whatever it takes to live with or as close to as possible to family. "But I have a good job and my relative live too far away." Yeah, well tough. You should have made better decisions. Seeing as you didn't and you screwed your life up, why don't you try not to do the same for your kid.

If mommy or daddy can't be around, then grandma or grandpa is the next best thing. Family perpetuates family. Without it, none of us exist. And if you're on the receiving end of a request for help in raising a child, it is your responsibility to help as much as you can. If you were the child, you would want that.

So, Limpubus, do you care to post your views on family's importance in raising a child? I'd love to hear them again so I can nit-pick them one by one.

And that goes for anyone else. I'm firm on this and want to know precisely where I'm wrong.

Mike

This answer by Mike shows that he not only has his head screwed on right, but he is ready for the (say it with me) RESPONCIBILITY of having children. Too many people want kids for their own amusement, so they stick them in day care so they can live the life they want during the day and play with their kids later. Someone needs to be home with the kids. They need the support and love that only the FULL attention of a parent (preferable the mom) can give. If you are on the opposing side of this issue you should do some reading on the subject… Virtually all studies have proved the same thing that kids grow up to be better adults if they have parents at home when they are young.

My wife knows that once we have kids she is at home…at least until they are in school…then she’s at home anytime they are.

Mike … one day you and your wife will make good parents. And just remember that almost all great people in history had great parents.

I'm seeing some contradictions here, so maybe drmarcs and Mike can explain it to me (I am, after all, just a wee woman). In a different debate drmarc comments:



But, according to Mike:



So by that rational, it is ultimately the man's fault, because he choose a bad wife. And drmarcs goes on to say:


(bold print is mine, not drmarcs)

Mike agrees:



So, by your own admission, Moms should be awarded custody of the children. They are the "preferable" parent to raise children. After all, it is not the mom's fault for cheating it is obviously the fault of the dad's for choosing a hussy for a wife.
These are not my opinions, they are yours. After all, according to drmarcs, I



So I figure I would just use you guys' "ideological backing".

-Kisov

I love the selective reading.



You forgot to add that I said that as well.



The contradictions you are seeing are between drmarcs' beliefs and mine. We are not the same person. We do not have identical beliefs. I don't personally know drmarcs. I have never talked to him and never met him. We don't get together and have policy discussion. Hell, there's a 1000 miles between us.



By my own admission, no one should be "awarded" custody. The divorce should not happen. If the parents have a respectible bone in their body, they will stay together for the children. And if they don't, then shame on them.

Come 18, divorce all you want. Get married again, divorced again, and let the cycle continue. Just don't put your kids at a disadvantage as a result of your poor decisions.

Regardless of whose "fault" the divorce was, there is one certain fact. It was not the child's fault.

If there is a divorce, it's obvious that mistakes were made. This is uncontestable. I am of the opinion that if a marriage is discontinued by one or both parties, it is both of their faults. However, I wonder how many divorces would be avoided if people really knew their spouse before marrying them.



Yes, they are. If you can find me one man capable of producing enough breast milk to feed that child for the first, and most critical, part of the child's life, I might consider changing my mind. There are definite differences between the sexes. These differences are not for looks, or for fun.

So, Kisov, is it safe to assume that you agree that daycare is bad for kids? Do you agree that full-time supervision is the best for a child? How about divorce's effects?

I'd really like to know.

Good post, by the way.

Mike

And I'm still waiting for Limpubus's views on this.

Since he usually posts his opinion with nothing to back it up, I think I've got no shot at getting any specific reasons, but I'd still like to hear his views.

Mike

First of all don’t give me the “I’m just a woman” skit, neither of us said anything about knowing more because we are male. Besides I feel women can do more for this world than any man can. Don’t believe me as my wife. But there are simple differenced in men and women that make them better at certain things then their counterparts.

While I think a lot of married peoples problems are of their own doing because of the mate the have chosen I don’t feel that the children should end up with the mom simply because she is the mom. Depending on each situation there should be a basis on who gets the kids, some dads are better, some moms. Ideally there is no divorce and the kids get the best of both worlds.

By saying mothers are better at raising a child I mean that simply by the mothering instinct. Mothers are better and teaching love, spirituality, and building self esteem. Fathers are better and instilling a sense of responsibility and teaching a child (especially a male) how to grow up. Of course this is not always the case. Individual situations should be judged individually.

I am sorry for saying no ideological backing. I just wanted to state that all studies on this issue have led to the same conclusion that children from an intact home where the mother stays at home have a better chance of becoming upright citizens. That’s not to say that children from single parent homes cannot, it is just less likely.

I'm a few steps behind, but still compelled to respond to Mike's post.

Objections first:

Mike - you are SO off base in your diatribe regarding the consequences of poor spouse choices. You said:

Let us take the very real example of a marriage with which I'm quite familiar (my relationship with them masked to protect innocents).

This couple dated through high school and college. They were very much in love. They got married, owned a home and THEN began to have kids (sounds good so far right?). Three kids, mom stayed home with them all, and dad worked. These parents were at every school and sports event the kids had. They talked to their kids about important issues. They took family vacations every year (sounds ideal, still huh?). This goes on for TWENTY years.

Then something, possibly medical, goes wrong with the dad; possibly a very minor stoke, undetectable on any brain scans. This alters the dad so completely that his "core set of beliefs" are erased from his brain. He begins to resent his family and the restrictions he perceives they place on his life. He begins to stay out late drinking with friends and eventually finds another woman. He leaves his family...

There is NO WAY the woman in this story could have ever predicted that the love of her life and companion of over twenty years would have some short circuit in his brain and flip out and leave his family.

It seems just a little too easy for you to draw huge generalizations about many thousands of unique stories.

That being said, I agree with how you follow this absurd idea up saying that the children lose out in the end (paraphrasing now). There is no arguing with that.

*****

Fundamentally, we agree. Parents need to pay attention to their kids. It seems simple enough. I don't understand why some bristle at the basic functions of biology. Let us not forget we are mammals and on that very lowest of levels we are programmed to care for our young.

It would be absurd for me to deny that a medical condition could cause a person to change completely.

This, however, is a rare case. I think we can all agree on that.

How often do you hear about a divorce where this happens?

Most often, the marriage was doomed for eventual failure from the beginning.

With more than 50% of all marriages resulting in divorce, you'd think bad decision making would have something to do with it, wouldn't you?

Mike

I'm going to have to back Jaime up on this one. Although her personal experience may have involved a medical condition, there is possibly something else going on here besides that. The only term I can think for this (that I can actually post) is a mid-life-crisis. Ya know, that time in a man/woman's life when they realize that they suddenly aren't satisfied any more with just being a good husband/wife or father/mother. They start to feel their own mortality, and try to do anything they can to fight it. Whether that is getting a new red sports car or having sex with a younger partner. Now although this "crisis" is usually attributed to men (sometimes I really think men actually believe the old saying "your only as old as the woman you feel"). In my personal experience it wasn't.

My parents were together for over 20 years, very good parents/role models, then around my Junior year of high school my mom started acting distant. Started with small things: not asking me to go to the store with her any more, watching TV at night in a different room than the rest of us, etc. Then she would start going to "craft shows" all day and come home having bought nothing. She was quite obviously cheating on my dad. Then I come home one day to find my dad in tears and nothing but a note on my pillow, stating, "I just feel like I belong here any more. Sorry. Love, Mom". Now if that isn't a midlife crisis I don't know what is. This is nothing my dad could have predicted, it was something I surely did not expect to happen. But it did and I never will understand it. One moment my mom's husband and family were everything to her and the next she ditched us all without even giving a forwarding address. Now, Mike, do you think for a second my dad thought (as my mom was walking out the door) "I should have known better, than to marry her,". I doubt it, because people change.

The things I felt were important to me 10 years ago are not exactly the same as the things that are important to me now and the same can probably be said about 10 years from know. People grow and change and all you can hope for is that the person you decide to marry changes with you. But it is nothing you can predict.

Mike, let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you cheated on a girlfriend of yours. Would you honestly expect for her to say, when she found out, "This is all my fault, I should have guessed ahead of time that this was the kind of thing you would do.". . . .of course not, her response would probably be more along the lines of "you are a !$#@$@^%&@$ jerk". Because she did nothing wrong, you did.

You just can't hold one person responsible for the future failings of another, it isn't right and it isn't fair.

-Kisov

You stay to maintain the security for the childeren, when the childeren are 18 do what you want to screw with your life. I think that is what Mike is saying, and is certainly my belief.

It's all about the kids.

Now if someone in the relationship was violent or abusive thats another story, but hurt feelings and lost love are bogus excuses.

Just so I'm clear on this. Mike, you're saying that despite whatever irrevocable affects it may have on a child the parents should stay together until the child is at least 18 and then the parents can divrorce and set their messed up child free upon the world believing that you don't have to love or care for the person you're married to so long as you stick it out for the kids?? And on a side note, drmarcs before you go around touting responsibility, please learn how to spell the word.

of course as karma may have it, upon mocking drmarcs spelling I make a typo. So I apologize for my hasty judgement.

Boy Mike
There were an awful lot of generalizations and emotions in your posting. Personally, I don’t think anything is that black and white. I was a stay at home mom who raised a large family. I wouldn’t have had it any other way. Now some of them are stay at home and some are not. There are failures and successes in both. ALL day care is not bad.
You are absolutely right about children playing one parent against the other in cases of divorce. Not only that, but they learn this at a very young age.
I am against divorce in general and agree with you that people do not prepare themselves enough for marriage and all of the responsibilities involved. It seems they look at it like clothing they can return if they don’t like it. In other words no commitment. My husband and I have been married for almost 50 years. It has not always been easy, but divorce or even separation was not even a consideration. I’ll admit it was another generation and less divorce, but after WWII the stigma started to disappear. What’s the old saying…you don’t walk in my shoes?
Well, your posting was too long for my aging brain to reply to all, but I just mean one has to be a little flexible in considering these things. Only rarely are things totally black and white.

Ah, another MEMEMEMEMEME vs the children debate. Sorry, children come first..period. Follow that rule and everything else falls into place.

Darcaine