When I first heard the comment, I claimed, "they BOTH had cheat sheets, what do you think they were writing?" But it wasn't that.

The law that was broken was as follows: "No props, notes, charts, diagrams, or other writings or other tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate.... Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium..." (Section 5, pages 4-5 of the binding "Memorandum of Understanding")

According the following footage, It shows Kerry pulling something out of his pocket, and then after a break, it shows Kerry unfolding something.
(Video 1, Video 2)

I will refrain from the typical questions about cheaters and enter a new forum of questions:

1. You have seen the videos, is this true? Why do you think so?
2. Will this story break mainstream news (ABC, CNN, CBS), remain on the internet, become talking points for right-wing radio talk shows, only FNC will touch, other?
3. Will this change anything (polls, election, trust of the people, etc)?

1. You have seen the videos, is this true? Why do you think so?
2. Will this story break mainstream news (ABC, CNN, CBS), remain on the internet, become talking points for right-wing radio talk shows, only FNC will touch, other?
3. Will this change anything (polls, election, trust of the people, etc)?

I don't this this is true. The NY POst says it was a pen after pulling video from the fox feed.

I think the stroy will break the mainstream news. But it seems to be a non-story so it won't get blanket coverage.

Had Kerry cheated it would have had an impact on the election, but sadly not on my vote.


DEM FLASHED 'WRITE' STUFF AT DEBATE

It is interesting to see the Washington Post claim it was a pen with no real evidence to display for it except the fact that someone i the post thought it was a pen and David Wade said, "We plead guilty to having a pen." Even if it was a pen, it still broke the debate law.

Secondly, that does not describe the 'unfolding' Kerry did. He unfolded a pen? His note cards were folded?

Ah, S-P-I-N. It couldn't be something as innocent as folding notated papers as soon you finish rebutting that portion of your opponent's rhetoric, could it? It HAS to be something more sinister for a Kerry to win a debate from a student who couldn't get into law school and who finsihed Yale with a "C" average. (If you will watch the video in full screen size, you will recognize the object is indeed a dark colored pen with a cap.)

Even if paper came out of Kerry's pocket, and I'm in NO way saying any did, might there have been another reason? As Kerry took notes with which to rebutt and make certain points, could he have folded the ones that he had finished so as not to clutter the top of the lectern and then could he have sought to refer to one of them to make sure he had finished making the point during a break?

Rush and the EIB network, along with their video counterpart, FNC, must have had more than one housekeeper and enough oxyconton to cause widespread hallucinatory episodes along with the all too regular bouts of dementia.

It simply HAS to be cheating when GWB can't remember what Karl Rove teaches him well enough to debate for 90 minutes.

Kerry must have also been sending telepathic interference toward Bush about Abu Nidal/Abbas for Bush to have mixed up the terrorists' names at least 10 times in recent speeches. It couldn't possibly have been that Bush's entire road trip team didn't know or pick up on the error. They must have had their brain waves altered by Kerry forces also.

I am sorry, but this story deserves to STAY on FNC and "News" Talk Radio or be the script for an Oliver Stone movie in the conspiracy thread.

Edited after watching a full screen version of the video link provided.

One can see the thumb and forefinger clearly grasping the top of a dark object coming from his inside lapel pocket. As he pulls the object down, it appears that a cap is removed from a pen and in the camera angle immediately stwitched to, the pen is being used and the cap is clearly visible over the top of the podium moving in a writing manner as he seems to be writing a note.

More appropriately, people should wonder why George Bush, in the single debate that most say would have won him this election by putting Kerry down for the count, instead failed miserably and looked as though he were again in that classroom reading "My Pet Goat" - this time for 90 minutes.

It couldn't have. Here is a closeup of Pocket-gate (need QuickTime to view). It's too blurry to say for certain if it's a note or pen, but near the end of the clip, the way he has his right hand over the left, it does look like he's handling something disproportionately sized. Folded papers are usually square or rectangular in shape.

Considering how the debate turned out it would be more appropriate to dub this neglect to the rules as "Trojan-gate."

It could be, but Kerry is silent, his camp is silent. Why the secrecy? Why the mystery?



Could have if he didn't do it at the start of the debate. And there were no actual television breaks in the debate itself. The debate was a solid flow.



This broke over the weekend. Rush was not on over the weekend and I have yet to see it on the FNC. It seems to be only on the internet right now.

Perhaps we watched different videos, but what I saw was clearly a white object, with what appeared to be a square corner. In either case, it's breaking the rules. Did it materially affect the outcome of the debate? Probably not greatly...remember memorizing cheat sheets to regurgitate immediately upon sitting down to take a test? Shouldn't have been a big issue. However, it leaves me to wonder...was Kerry unaware of the rules, or just chose to ignore them? Does either indicate sound judgement? Why risk something so important over something so minor as either a pen, or, in what I saw, a notecard? Suppose this had been brought up during the debate? "Mr. Kerry, could you please hand me whatever that was you just took out of your pocket?" That would have been a HUGE gaff, especially right at the start of the debate. Could have spelled the end of his presidential campaign....all over either a pen or a notecard? Come on, Kerry supporters...I'll grant that it wasn't that big a deal to the outcome of the debate, but doesn't this strike you as a strange thing to do regardless, with potentially very disastrous consequences? Objectively, I don't really see how a good spin could be put on this, and you'd have to at least admit that you'd be all over Bush is the situation were reversed, wouldn't you?

Rush isn’t on on the weekends? Wow, I guess the airwaves have something to be grateful for.

Seriously, it this and legs, why would FNC wait for Limbaugh to break the "story?" Maybe, they are being cautions and waiting for Rush to fabricate legs in his ultra modern "news" lab located in a cellar under Rupert Murdoch's. Then all Rush has to do is run it by his non-fact checker. Bingo! Another election year diversion.



yeohosua,

Pay attention. You quote Eeyore , who cited The NY Post, an ultra conservative paper owned by Rupert Murdoch (the same character who owns FNC) and then switch to The Washington Post.

BTW: The 32 pages were “rules” not “laws.”

One can see Kerry's fingertips AND thumb. A piece of paper would have obscured that. The CAP of a Mont Blanc pen is often gold and therefore would reflect as "white" or bright in that small size. It would be half the size of a dime. Kerry's fingertips seemed to be grasping a dark round object with a reflection at the top (above his thumb and fingertips). You are able to see more than one of Kerry's fingertips grasping a long, dark object between the thumb and fingertips with his thumb on the top side of that possibly cylindrical object and his fingertips sticking out ther other side. The bright spot you refer to is ABOVE the point his fingers or thumb are positioned in the same way a pen cap would sit if you held it.

This flap reminds me of that WWII song with one verse being "The second lieutenants are at it again, they're winning the war with a fountain pen, inky dinky, parlez vous".

I think the more troublesome part of the debate debate is that Bush has again shown the public that pitiful, bewildered look of a deer caught in the headlights, this time for most of the 90 minutes.

Hobbes, you should know me by now and understand that I merely tolerate politicians and choose the lesser of evils. Rove and Bush have orchestrated many dirty tricks as they will continue to do. I actually applaud Kerry for answering them even though the process is disgusting.

I know many of the players behind the Swift Boat Vets for Truth ads and have had dealings with them and their lobbyists. There is WAY more to EACH candidate that would spoil dinner for most but from as close as I sit, Kerry's team is far enough behind to look innocent.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Senator McCain has forgiven Rove or Bush for South Carolina in 2000. Also, I believe it will be a miracle if no one more noteworthy than Eisenhower jumps ship before November 2.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was reading the W. Post while writing. Besides one post, two post, who cares? They both will spin a story toward their leaning side. I was trying to snap to center.



THEY ARE LAWS. Laws are rules. Rules to live by.

rules: An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest.

laws: A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority

The moderators are slipping, I beleive there are already threads on governments conpiracies and urban legends.
My favorite on this subject so far is that if you watch the video you can clearly see the wire running down the back of the president for his "hearing aid".
which is great for the stories on how if he was being "fed" his answers and STILL failed so badly to perform in the debate, just how sad that is. Not to mention the marionette by Cheney stories.
They're VERY funny.
Seriously folks--some people need to develop a hobby.

Kerry pulled something out of his pocket. Pen? Card? Hankie? Hard to tell. As we have given President Bush many benefits of the doubt, it appears to me that the same courtesy can be given Kerry.

He pulled a hankie out. Or maybe a pen. Or maybe a prayer card. Or maybe the Dale Carnegie golden book to remind himself how to be civil to a jerk.



No, because it is very irrelevant. Well, right-wing radio talk shows might try to make it relevant -- to hard right wingers only.



No, because it is very irrelevant. The action had no impact on the debate, nor did it send soldiers into harm's way, nor did it remove civil liberties, nor did it run up the deficit, nor did it reward the wealthy.

Just for speculation, suppose this was a note card. What might it have had on it? What possible information could have been brought into the debate that would have made President Bush look any less presidential?

Most serious debate analysts maintain that nobody won, but the sound and look of Kerry was far superior to that of Bush. So the public thinks Kerry won, due mostly to the public not understanding what debate is. And besides, these aren't debates as much as joint news conferences.

As the old saying goes, showbiz for ugly people.

De-bunked. And an apology issued by Bill at INDC Journal, the blogger who pushed the story. (Interesting that a blogger would issue an apology for being wrong, while Dan Rather still insists that his memos 'may' be fake).

More than obviously, they are not laws. They are rules. Laws are, very generally speaking, rules...in a sense. But rules are, as everyone already knows, not laws.

In point of actual fact, the debate rules aren't even real rules. There has been only tentative verbal agreement to them by committees of people working for the two campaigns. No one has signed them with a legally binding signature. In fact, the two actual candidates have not even verbally agreed to them.

'Tentative Guidelines' would be the appropriate term for what you describe as 'laws'.

The sad part of all this, at least in my opinion, is that the right-wing wanted Kerry to break the rules so that they could spin daylights out of it for weeks. Nothing works quite so well for Bush’s campaign as creating a circus that takes everyone’s mind off the real issues for a few days or weeks. You know, keep the ball in the air as long as possible. Sorry, it didn’t work.

Don’t take it from me, though. Rush Limbaugh, the 800 pound gorilla of right-wing media, wrote before the debate started, that he expected Kerry to break the rules. I hope Rush is not too disappointed. If he's having trouble getting things straight, he might consider going back and finishing at that college he dropped out of years ago. Had Rush actually been right, he, Hannity, Coulter and other of their ilk would have burned it in the minds of anyone who would listen right up to November 2.

Here is link to Limbaugh’s pre-debate statement:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/sit...ight.guest.html

I find the words ”rush is right” at the end of the link amusing. When have Rush or those other media clowns every been right--except perhaps with regards to the far right portion of the political continuum.

this is the key. i saw a video which showed it was a pen, but it was still a violation of the rules they both agreed to.

much like Michael Moore offering underwear and such to Michiganders in return for voting. it seems petty and innocuous, but it's still against state law