Full Version: Teaching is not a 'real job.'
QUOTE
Teresa Heinz Kerry says she doesn't know if first lady Laura Bush has ever had "a real job" and suggests their different experiences help make them different people.
...
"Well, you know, I don't know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in her eye, which is good," Heinz Kerry said. "But I don't know that she's ever had a real job — I mean, since she's been grown up. So her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things."
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"Well, you know, I don't know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in her eye, which is good," Heinz Kerry said. "But I don't know that she's ever had a real job — I mean, since she's been grown up. So her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things."
Laura Bush (TEACHER): 1968 to 1977 Texas Public School
The debate is:
- Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
- Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
- After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
First of all, just because a person makes an unfortunate statement does not automatically make teaching "not a real job." And before you crucify Teresa...
Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
Of course; everyone is different. And their respective lives couldn't be much different.
[*] Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
It's blown up because it was an ill-advised thing to say in what has become the nastiest campaign in history. But, we're not electing first ladies here. Talk about a non-job-heh.
[*] After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
See, I have a problem with automatically drawing a parallel between one person's dumb statement and this blanket assessment that raising kids isn't a "real job." Teresa Kerry is a mom, too, remember. Mrs. Kerry has the same problem I (and many others) have - opening mouth before engaging brain.
QUOTE
In a statement put out later by the Kerry campaign, Heinz Kerry said she had forgotten Mrs. Bush's work as a teacher and librarian, "and there couldn't be a more important job than teaching our children."
"I appreciate and honor Mrs. Bush's service to the country as first lady, and am sincerely sorry I had not remembered her important work in the past," Heinz Kerry's statement said. Reuters
"I appreciate and honor Mrs. Bush's service to the country as first lady, and am sincerely sorry I had not remembered her important work in the past," Heinz Kerry's statement said. Reuters
Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
Of course; everyone is different. And their respective lives couldn't be much different.
[*] Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
It's blown up because it was an ill-advised thing to say in what has become the nastiest campaign in history. But, we're not electing first ladies here. Talk about a non-job-heh.
[*] After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
See, I have a problem with automatically drawing a parallel between one person's dumb statement and this blanket assessment that raising kids isn't a "real job." Teresa Kerry is a mom, too, remember. Mrs. Kerry has the same problem I (and many others) have - opening mouth before engaging brain.
QUOTE
- Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
- Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
- After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
- I am sure there are quite a lot of differences between Mrs. Heinz Kerry and Mrs. Bush. Differences in attitude constitute only the beginning. Teresa H.K. is a woman who has been exposed to many different countries and therefore cultures. She is accustomed to having her opinions listened to and respected.
Laura Bush is more of a homebody, which is a more traditional lifestyle. For many generations in the United States, a woman would leave her career after marrying her breadwinner husband in order to raise a family. For many families these days, however, the woman staying home is a luxury they cannot afford. - When Mrs. Heinz Kerry said, "I don't know Laura Bush," this should indicate that she cannot state authoritatively what the First Lady has or hasn't done. This is blown up, and I think we had better start concentrating on weightier matters when determining who the President is going to be.
- Yes, raising children is a real job, but it is vastly different from managing a corporate trust. And considering George W. Bush was a drinker before the twins came along to the point where he himself admitted as much, it probably wasn't a picnic being his wife.
Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
Blown out of proportion. She prefaced it with the above quote.
Teresa has pulled some idiotic lines this campaign, but this isn't one of them. Then again we're talking about Karen Hughs. I'm not surprised at all she thinks Teresa should be chastised for making a comment about the first lady that doesn't convey a sense of awe even if it means lying, and turn Teresa's comment into something it is not.
Mrowrr, cat fight!
Don't worry Teresa. I support terrorism just like you.
Blown out of proportion. She prefaced it with the above quote.
Teresa has pulled some idiotic lines this campaign, but this isn't one of them. Then again we're talking about Karen Hughs. I'm not surprised at all she thinks Teresa should be chastised for making a comment about the first lady that doesn't convey a sense of awe even if it means lying, and turn Teresa's comment into something it is not.
QUOTE
Karen Hughes, an adviser to President Bush, criticized Heinz Kerry's remarks as "indicative of an unfortunate mind-set that seeks to divide women based on who works at home and who works outside the home."
Mrowrr, cat fight!
Don't worry Teresa. I support terrorism just like you.
QUOTE
Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
Yeah, probably. I don't know either woman well, but they seem very different. Mrs. HK looks to be more feisty than Mrs. B, whom I think you'd have to live with to see the dark side -- um, the feisty side that is.
QUOTE
Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
Teaching isn't a real job in that it involves lousy pay for lots of real work. It also involves a lot of little people, at the grade school level. Real jobs let you be a jerk to other people, pay well, and don't involve a great deal of real work. That's why your's truly chose not to be a high school English instructor and instead went into computers, where unpaid overtime might be required but isn't built into every single working day of the year, plus your time off.
QUOTE
After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
Nope, not a real job either. It involves a 7x24 (or is it 24x7) commitment for zero pay and little reward, and when the initial commitment is served, then you get a lifetime of worry about your adult kids in the mean, mean world.
No vacations, no retirements, no stock options, no perks, just a lot of hard work for little in return. Except love, that is.
I'm speaking for mothers here. Men have a different deal that involves toys that get more expensive with age. I know, old joke. Probably a stereotype too. Oh well, it's still true to some level.
Women who serve as mother and partial bread winner have it tough, and that is to say most working mothers/women have it tough.
So who had it tougher, Mrs. HK or Mrs. B? Who might want to be a mover and shaker as First Lady?
Good question. Does Mrs. HK bake cookies? With ketchup?
For what it's worth, an update:
Karen Hughs should still get tarred and feathered for ignoring male homemakers. I mean that's condescending as hell. Who's with me! (Cue cricket sounds.)
QUOTE
In a statement put out later by the Kerry campaign, Heinz Kerry said she had forgotten Mrs. Bush's work as a teacher and librarian, "and there couldn't be a more important job than teaching our children."
"I appreciate and honor Mrs. Bush's service to the country as first lady, and am sincerely sorry I had not remembered her important work in the past," Heinz Kerry's statement said.
"I appreciate and honor Mrs. Bush's service to the country as first lady, and am sincerely sorry I had not remembered her important work in the past," Heinz Kerry's statement said.
Karen Hughs should still get tarred and feathered for ignoring male homemakers. I mean that's condescending as hell. Who's with me! (Cue cricket sounds.)
1. Is Mrs. Heinz Kerry right about the differences between her and Mrs. Bush?
Certainly there are differences between any two people.
2. Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
Teachers, those active as well as retired, think of themselves a professionals, despite lack of self-determination that the legal and medical professions enjoy. Here’s some information on Laura Bush’s teaching career from. It seems there are two Lauras, one before Bush, the other after Bush.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer
Of course, her service as an educator was valuable. Now that Mrs. Kerry has clarified her position, it probably won't rise to the level of another Rush Limbaugh non-issue becoming an issue.
3. After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
Raising children is a real job. The Bush’s children are now grown. Here are some telling words from The Washington Post. While this valuable work, I've always thought Dr. Laura's advice to women that "I am the mother of my children," is demeaning to women. I would like to hear something from Laura Bush indicating that she currently something other than the wife of George.
Speaking of crickets, the late John Lennon was a male homemaker at one time.
Certainly there are differences between any two people.
2. Does Mrs. Heinz Kerry not value the job of a teacher, or is this blown up, because as she said, "I don't know Laura Bush."
Teachers, those active as well as retired, think of themselves a professionals, despite lack of self-determination that the legal and medical professions enjoy. Here’s some information on Laura Bush’s teaching career from. It seems there are two Lauras, one before Bush, the other after Bush.
QUOTE
After graduating from Southern Methodist University with a teaching degree, where she smoked and read and played bridge and wore peasant shirts, she taught fourth grade in Dallas. "I loved it," she says. "I would read stories to them, and they had a really great time." She cried every time she got to the end of "Charlotte's Web."
And then I moved back to Austin and was a school librarian," she says, "and then I met George." She quit her job to travel with her new husband when he ran for Congress.
And then I moved back to Austin and was a school librarian," she says, "and then I met George." She quit her job to travel with her new husband when he ran for Congress.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer
Of course, her service as an educator was valuable. Now that Mrs. Kerry has clarified her position, it probably won't rise to the level of another Rush Limbaugh non-issue becoming an issue.
3. After Laura married George, she stayed at home to raise a family, is this a 'real job?'
Raising children is a real job. The Bush’s children are now grown. Here are some telling words from The Washington Post. While this valuable work, I've always thought Dr. Laura's advice to women that "I am the mother of my children," is demeaning to women. I would like to hear something from Laura Bush indicating that she currently something other than the wife of George.
QUOTE
The education president and his educator wife are taking a swing through poor schools in downbeat chunks of the Midwest.
First stop: Columbus, Ohio, where a tired, squat building named Sullivant Elementary huddles next to a minor-league baseball stadium, a quarry and a trailer park.
<snip>
The president talks about how testing is not punitive but diagnostic. The first lady displays her capacity for sitting very still.
She does not speak. Her command of educational issues is considerable, from her decade in the classroom and library, her stint as PTA mother of twin girls in public school, and her six years as a Texas first lady pushing for school reform.
First stop: Columbus, Ohio, where a tired, squat building named Sullivant Elementary huddles next to a minor-league baseball stadium, a quarry and a trailer park.
<snip>
The president talks about how testing is not punitive but diagnostic. The first lady displays her capacity for sitting very still.
She does not speak. Her command of educational issues is considerable, from her decade in the classroom and library, her stint as PTA mother of twin girls in public school, and her six years as a Texas first lady pushing for school reform.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 20 2004, 05:34 PM)
Karen Hughs should still get tarred and feathered for ignoring male homemakers. I mean that's condescending as hell. Who's with me! (Cue cricket sounds.)
Speaking of crickets, the late John Lennon was a male homemaker at one time.
I don't think question number was stated well so let me explain.
Mrs. H. Kerry claims the following:
Mrs. H. Kerry claims the following:
- Laura is calm
- Laura has a sparkle in her eye
- Laura has not had a real job
- Laura's experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things.
- Laura is younger
- Teresa has validation of what she does because she is older
- Teresa has had different experiences
- Teresa is not criticizing Laura
QUOTE
Heinz Kerry said she sees her age as a benefit — she is 66 and Bush 57. "I'm older, and my validation of what I do is a little bit bigger — because I'm older, and I've had different experiences. And it's not a criticism of her. It's just, you know, what life is about," she said.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=...rry_1&printer=1
Are these difference valid difference between Laura and Teresa?
Differences are what make people “unique” individuals. Of course they are valid differences. Why do we even need to go through a validation charade?
QUOTE(BoF @ Oct 20 2004, 05:00 PM)
Differences are what make people “unique” individuals. Of course they are valid differences, Why do we even need to validate?
OKAY...
...ARE THESE REALLY THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO? Are there more? Are any of them not differences between (EX: Teresa has a sparkle in her eye, too)?
QUOTE(yehoshua @ Oct 20 2004, 07:05 PM)
OKAY... ...ARE THESE REALLY THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO? Are there more? Are any of them not differences between (EX: Teresa has a sparkle in her eye, too)?
...ARE THESE REALLY THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO? Are there more? Are any of them not differences between (EX: Teresa has a sparkle in her eye, too)?This is my last reply on this thread. As on another thread, you are trying to refine or redefine the issue as you go.
At this point all I can say is that it's now a non-issue.
It sounds like you're hinting at Teresa's interview with USA Today, yehoshua. Here it is: The real running mates.
Laura is calm
Compared to Teresa? Yes. But when it comes to Teresa the ADD kids next door are calm. Okay, the kids and Teresa aren't that turbulent. But the kids are right next door and TV is larger than life. Our strengths, flaws, and everything in-between set in our memories with the daily news rehash.
She meant calm as a compliment. I think Teresa knows she has made the DNC hold its breath. By the way... the question USA Today asked pertaining to her answer was "You'd be different from Laura Bush?"
Laura has a sparkle in her eye
Like this comment is bad? If we are to turn the question around and speculate whether Teresa has a sparkle of her own how does it pertain to the education forum?
Laura has not had a real job
False. I addressed it.
Laura's experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things
Teresa said this while unaware Laura was a teacher but let's take it at that. At that point I guess it was a valid difference in Teresa's mind.
Laura is younger
Teresa has validation of what she does because she is older
One factually correct, the other doesn't matter, imo.
The question was: "You'd also be the oldest woman to become first lady. I've noticed that you often mention your age to audiences." Teresa's answer: "I mention my age because I find people in this country — women, not men, of course — women are so troubled by their age. There's a culture of youth, and it's a phony culture. And it's a silly culture because, you know, gravity pulls you down. And what stays is inside your head, in your eyes and in your brain and in your heart. And that gets bigger as you get older."
She came back to age at the last question. (You'd be different from Laura Bush?) "And I'm older, and my validation of what I do and what I believe and my experience is a little bit bigger — because I'm older, and I've had different experiences. And it's not a criticism of her. It's just, you know, what life is about."
You can interpret that as Teresa putting too much importance on age, I guess. I don't think she's going to follow-up it up with, "Yeah, you know, going in as the oldest first lady really sucks."
Teresa has had different experiences
Her life experience would be different to Laura's even if Laura was never a teacher. I would hope so. Teresa was told by the interviewer most Americans still prefer a first lady that doesn't have a job.
Then she mentioned that she and Laura had different experience on the mistaken perception that Larua wasn't a schoolteacher. If this is bad then "her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things" means nothing.
Teresa is not criticizing Laura
Like I said, Teresa's mouth has run off on its own but what you're asking yehoshua, and how you ask it... seems to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Are you comparing pinups?
Laura is calm
Compared to Teresa? Yes. But when it comes to Teresa the ADD kids next door are calm. Okay, the kids and Teresa aren't that turbulent. But the kids are right next door and TV is larger than life. Our strengths, flaws, and everything in-between set in our memories with the daily news rehash.
She meant calm as a compliment. I think Teresa knows she has made the DNC hold its breath. By the way... the question USA Today asked pertaining to her answer was "You'd be different from Laura Bush?"
Laura has a sparkle in her eye
Like this comment is bad? If we are to turn the question around and speculate whether Teresa has a sparkle of her own how does it pertain to the education forum?
Laura has not had a real job
False. I addressed it.
Laura's experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things
Teresa said this while unaware Laura was a teacher but let's take it at that. At that point I guess it was a valid difference in Teresa's mind.
Laura is younger
Teresa has validation of what she does because she is older
One factually correct, the other doesn't matter, imo.
The question was: "You'd also be the oldest woman to become first lady. I've noticed that you often mention your age to audiences." Teresa's answer: "I mention my age because I find people in this country — women, not men, of course — women are so troubled by their age. There's a culture of youth, and it's a phony culture. And it's a silly culture because, you know, gravity pulls you down. And what stays is inside your head, in your eyes and in your brain and in your heart. And that gets bigger as you get older."
She came back to age at the last question. (You'd be different from Laura Bush?) "And I'm older, and my validation of what I do and what I believe and my experience is a little bit bigger — because I'm older, and I've had different experiences. And it's not a criticism of her. It's just, you know, what life is about."
You can interpret that as Teresa putting too much importance on age, I guess. I don't think she's going to follow-up it up with, "Yeah, you know, going in as the oldest first lady really sucks."
Teresa has had different experiences
Her life experience would be different to Laura's even if Laura was never a teacher. I would hope so. Teresa was told by the interviewer most Americans still prefer a first lady that doesn't have a job.
QUOTE
Do you have a role model for first lady in mind?
A: The one thing I've learned from watching is that there really isn't a model, because every person coming in is different. Their experiences are different, and times have changed.
A: The one thing I've learned from watching is that there really isn't a model, because every person coming in is different. Their experiences are different, and times have changed.
Then she mentioned that she and Laura had different experience on the mistaken perception that Larua wasn't a schoolteacher. If this is bad then "her experience and her validation comes from important things, but different things" means nothing.
Teresa is not criticizing Laura
Like I said, Teresa's mouth has run off on its own but what you're asking yehoshua, and how you ask it... seems to make a mountain out of a molehill.
QUOTE(yehoshua @ Oct 20 2004, 08:05 PM)
ARE THESE REALLY THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO? Are there more? Are any of them not differences between (EX: Teresa has a sparkle in her eye, too)?
Are you comparing pinups?
CLOSED. yehoshua, you can't keep changing the questions to debate in light of the responses you receive. Please give careful thought to your debate questions when starting a thread.
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