George Will wrote a piece that reminded me of the past, and caused me to dread the near future.

George Will - Oct, 21 2004

It got me thinking about the 2000 race. The arguments that because the ballot was not properly used the voters in question were being robbed of their votes. Not many would dare to suggest that the voters apparent lack of skills a class of 3rd graders had was responsible for the goofs on these ballots.

The subject is simple. When someone does not properly use a punch card to vote who is responsible?

If you make a mistake on your ballot, your vote is not counted. That's the way it's always been. You are responsible for educating yourself on how to properly use whatever kind of voting apparatus your county uses. I'm so tired of the "Everybody's fault but mine" mentality in our society. If you make a mistake, it's your fault.

In the UK, we still use a cross marked in a box on a piece of paper next to the candidate's name. If you accidentally mark the wrong box, you can go back to the administrators and ask for another ballot paper (you have to hand them the old one so they can destroy it).

It only counts as a duff ("spoiled") ballot if you put it into the ballot box before you notice you have used it incorrectly (for example, by voting Conservative ). Or, if you intend to lodge a spoiled ballot as some kind of protest.

What happens in US elections that use punch cards if you notice you've messed it up and ask if you can have another go? I find it hard to believe that the election officials would tell you that you only get one chance and you have to live with the vote you have cast, so assuming you would get another chance if you only asked for one, I have to say anyone foolish enough to screw up their vote AND foolish enough not to notice AND foolish enough not to ask for another voting paper if they do notice --- anyone in this situation deservesp not to have their vote counted.

But, if election officials say to people that they can't have another try if they present them (the official) with a spoiled paper, or if the papers are pre-marked with some unique identifier that means it is the only one that can be used by that voter (in which case, how is the ballot secret?) then the system needs to change. Any such system that does not take into account the endless human capacity for making simple mistakes sometimes by allowing them to be corrected is inherently flawed.

Especially since, after Florida in 2000, everyone should be aware of the problems that were caused last time around.

Having said that, it couldn't hurt to have the voting machines available at public places like libraries and schools outside of election times, so anyone who is worried about it can practice using the machines with dummy papers until they are happy they can use it properly.

And the answer is equally as simple, the voter.

Now to bring in the matter of circumstance, which your question lacks, but does pop up in all reality - depending on the circumstances. If all is right and as it should be and the voter uses the card or apparatus incorrectly then only the voter is at fault. If the apparatus is at fault, specifically the punch cards as you mention then fault could be placed at the feet of someone else. The case of the overfilled butterfly ballot specifically comes to mind. I've never used a punch card ballot, and from what I understand there are/were several different types, so I would imagine that there could be problems specific to each type.

To "overfill" AKA overvote, you need to punch more then on candidate for that particular office.

On a punch card, that means that though the directions state SELECTION ONE Candidate you choose to select two. Seems to me the mistake here is the voters, not the cards.

And undervote means you didn't choose a candidate for the office or didn't' completely punch through the card. I have no idea how someone could fail to punch through the card completely. However, it is simply a matter of looking at your card before you turn it in. Is it punched all the way through? Is it a hanging chad? If so fix it before you turn it in. Seems simple to me, and it was quite simple to a forth grade class. Kids can do it

Of course adults tend to think they know everything and skip directions whereas kids, when faced with something new are far more likely to listen too / read instructions if they think what they are doing is important. They have not yet learned that they know better then everyone else yet.

Just to answer your question, Julian, you can certainly request a new ballot. You must return your original ballot in order to receive a replacement.

When someone does not properly use a punch card to vote who is responsible?
As a voter who votes via the controversial "butterfly" type ballot, I can attest that it is the voter's fault. Where personal responsibility has gone in this country is beyond me.

Obviously we’re all responsible for our own actions.

However I really find it hard to imagine that those who are stating “where has our accountability for our actions gone” are absolutely perfect in everything they do. Congratulations. Please share you secrets and I just hope the next time you make a mistake someone is more forgiving and understanding than yourself.

Punch cards are the worse voting method currently in use today. They allow for subjective interpretation if there’s an audit. That’s inexcusable.

As citizens of this country our most cherished right AND responsibility is voting. Thank goodness there are allowances made for those of us who are less than perfect.

When someone does not properly use a punch card to vote who is responsible?

I'm all for personal responsibility. Yet, if it has been proven that certain types of voting methods (e.g. punch card) are more prone to miscast votes than other types of voting methods, then it seems to me that there is an issue somewhat independent of stupid voters. Making an interface usable is a non-trivial exercise. What may appear to you to be obvious may be labyrinthian to another. Everyone makes mistakes (some more than others ). In the case of hanging chad, it may not be apparent to the voter at all so there is no opportunity to correct the problem.

What concerns me in this discussion is that folks require blame to be laid. Sometimes things happen in which blame is immaterial to the topic. Voting, in particular, ought not to be part of the blame game. We should learn from our mistakes and attempt to fix the problems which have been uncovered. I may believe that there are alot of stupid/hurried/indifferent people out there, but it wouldn't stop me from attempting to roll out a better voting system so at least that portion of the problem is reduced.

Apparently, when faced with a choice between blaming a careless voter or a broken voting system, it's the stupid human and not the flawed process that must be at fault.

Proving yet again between reforming a dysfunctional system and coming up with a simple, modern and effective way for voters to cast their ballot, people will take the path of least resistance---and cost.

The subject is simple. When someone does not properly use a punch card to vote who is responsible?
I would say that it is both the system/process and the person voting that share the blame equally.

To explain myself I'll start with an analogy on web usability. This is a subject near and dear to the heart of any web developer, but most people can probably understand and appreciate the core points. Web usability is basically the process of making web sites dummy proof so that users can execute business processes regardless of their level of education. It involves things like making sure the process of quickly locating an item you are looking for on a site like amazon.com is as easy and intuitive as possible, making sure that the process from click to sale is easy and intuitive and protecting users from themselves by doing things like validating forms before submission.

If a user navigates to a site that does online sales and the process is too difficult or involved to figure out, that business isn't going to make a sale. Now who's fault is that? Does blame lie with the business because they don't have a useable site, or does blame lie with the user for not being able to read directions or figure something out? Again it is both, but the difference is that the business has an incentive to make their websites useable or they will lose potential sales.

Now back to voting. Ballots are different in almost every state and there are various methods used to mark your choice. No one ever receives any education from school or otherwise on how to vote, much like the web. In the place of education ballots often have paragraphs and sometimes pages of instructions on how to vote properly. It should be a pretty well known fact that most people aren't going to take the time to read instructions, otherwise why would most people not bother to set the clock on their VCR or know how to program it to record shows?

Voting may not be an issue for anyone that particiaptes at AD, but at the same time I'd probably place all of us in the 95th or higher percentile as far as intelligence goes for the United States. These ballots are not intuitive and some forms of them are downright confusing. The other problem is that they aren't fool proof, there are no checks to save you from your own ignorance. That is the reason why people frequently vote for the wrong candidate and fill in bubbles for 5 school board members instead of 4 and have their vote thrown out.

As a voter, you don't have the option of walking away from a ballot like you would a poorly designed eCommerce site selling a piece of clothing you wanted. Your only choice is to do the best you can and hope you don't mess up.

The government, whether that be federal, state, or local, simply doesn't invest the money necessary to make ballots useable for all people. This may be beacuse they don't feel it is a priority or a problem or they simply don't have the funds to do it. But to have ballots which aren't useable defeats Democracy. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere that says you must be educated, intelligent or informed to vote, if there was then I think a fair percentage of Americans wouldn't be voting.

Therefore, I think that the government has a duty to make voting as easy as possible for everyone to ensure that Democracy prevails. There is huge room for improvement for every state and it'll take money to do this, but it needs to be done. It is extremely easy to blame the voter, and they do deserve blame for not being responsible, but the system should be as foolproof as possible.

As strange as it is CJ, I will have to agree with you! I early voted today and all I could think of was my Grandparents in Louisiana, and if they were still alive what a tough time they'd have.

This year in Texas (as I'm sure most other places) there are computerized terminals. People guide you through the identification process and get you into begin your voting process. However, I could easily see how one could become apprehensive, confused, or make mistakes. The process is NOT complicated or confusing, but an elderly person for instance, would probably have a tough time or feel apprehensive about the whole voting experience.

In terms of voting improperly, and excuse me if all states aren't computarized (excuse my ignorance), but it does eliminate the ability to mark extra boxes, etc.

I think the computarized process, as long as data transmission is seamless, etc, seems to be an improvement but there surely could be more assistance.

First of all, no one is saying they are incapable of mistakes. We are simply stating that one makes a mistake they should accept the personal responsibility for it as well as the consequences of it and endeavor to prevent the mistake in the future.

Secondly, the punch cards are NOT subject to interpretation, or at least they should not be. Either the person completely punched through the hole for ONE candidate or they did not. It is the politicos and the lawyers who have injected "interpretation into the process as a means to obfuscate their attempts to hijack elections for their own ends.

A simple casual inspection of your card after you remove it from the butterfly ballot and before you drop it into the security box is all it takes to ensure a mistake is caught. After all, even if you are simply unsure if you properly punched the ballot, you can turn it in for destruction and request a replacement ballot card.







I am all for the replacement of these systems where it is possible. However, there are places where this has not happened and the vote is in less then a week. We have to work with what we have.

In a way it is about placing blame. But this is only because the political elites of both parties have decided to make a mockery of the voting process by challenging everything they can imagine in regard to the voting methods used.

We have to accept the fact that NO voting system is perfect, all have minor problems and unless we are willing to personally interview every voting American for every vote that is called for, some votes (a very small amount) will be lost, or miscast as has been happening for centuries.

And how could you not see a "hanging chad" dangling from your ballot if you bothered to look at it before turning it in?

Based on my years of experience as a voter who uses the punch card voting method, I find it interesting that, the last I heard most electronic methods are incapable or being audited for recounts. I'll take my ballot, with the option to have a recount done over touch screen convenance that comes at the price of throwing away the checks and balances.

The larger problem here is: will we allow all of our elections to be decided by the courts rather then the ballot boxes?



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The subject is simple. When someone does not properly use a punch card to vote who is responsible?


The answer isn't simple. If poor areas get the cards that cause the most errors, while rich areas get better options, then those who set up this distribution are responsible.

I used a butterfly ballot similar to the Florida ones. Had my eyesight not been good I never would have been able to vote properly. Elderly people and others often have problems with their eyesight. They aren't at fault if they can't vote properly because the ballots were a ridiculous collection of names mismatched with choices you had to make with a small punchpin, in a dim voting booth, hunkered over, peeling hanging chads off with your fingertips.

Now we have gone to something worse: voting machines overwhelmingly and alarmingly manufactured by avowed rightwing supporters, no paper trail, problems and delays and misvotes for Bush ALREADY, and that's on top of dirty tricks on both sides, including the disenfranchisement of minority voters AGAIN.

I can give you one possible scenario. You punch the hole which causes the chad to pop out except for one side. The chad wraps around onto the back of the punch card and stays there via static electricity. You insert the card into the reader which causes the chad to move back into its original hole. This could happen to anyone: even those who thought they has voted correctly. Are you sure your votes were counted correctly?


Of course, there is no technical reason why an independent audit trail can't exist for electronic voting machines. It just wasn't done. There is good evidence that punch card ballots are consistently unreliable due to the technology and not just dumb voters.


Short answer: yes. Since there is no perfect system, the courts are the ultimate arbiter in our democracy. The outcome of Election 2004 will be up to the courts and for president ultimately a single court.

Good point, as I said earlier, making voting easier and better is of course the way to go.

I just have a problem with placing the blame on the process to the point of casting doubt on the election, when frequently the problem is the voter failing to use the process properly or take into account their own issues.

The print should be larger and easy to read in all areas. However, for now, where this is not the case, if you know you have a problem reading at times if the print is small would you not bring a magnifying glass with you to the polls?

besides, I would think (and hope) after the debacle of the 2000 election, voter would be taking hard looks at their ballots before turning them in.




OK, for your chad example, first of all, isn't' that a bit extreme?

Secondly, would you not be likely to notice it if you simply brushed you hand across the back of the card when checking it? If, that pesky hanging chad actually folded over well enough to resist the brush of a hand and then folded back over enough to block the recording of the vote, well I would not quite call it a miracle, but it would certainly be one in a million.

I would like to see your supporting links for the " good evidence" regarding punch card reliability.

Lastly, you don't have a problem with the courts making the final decision in our elections? Do you not see the danger in this? What happens if the justices, put in place by politicians because of their similar ideology, decide to favor the candidate that comes closest to their ideology? How many more elections will be decided by judges before this process gets abused and then usurped, eventually making voting pointless all together?

How many more voters become apathetic, and disenfranchised when they see that their vote counts less then the opinion of judges?

Seems like an enormous risk to take for the very small percentage of problems with the process that are not created by the voter themselves.

My interpretation of “Accountability for our actions” is primarily a conservative mantra, often recited by myself as well, for the criminal who is sorry only because they’re caught and scream at the time they’ll have to server, by welfare kings/queens who do nothing to sever the financial umbilical cord of the government. To put eighty six year old citizens who have taken the time to vote (unlike their apathetic grand kids), who are often times confused in their own living room, into this same category is absurd.

Reminds me of the quote from Robin Williams on Leno the other night: “Compassionate conservatism, yeah, that’s like a Volvo with a gun rack”.

I’m sure those elderly voters who were confused by the ballots woke up that morning all hopped up on their Geritol and such, decided to wreak a little havoc at their voting precinct


You really don’t remember the panel who sat and analyzed the punch cards in Florida? I can still picture the bug-eyed gent standing there staring at a ballot for what seemed like an eternity. There was a three page document that the panel used as a guide to interpret a ballot so they could determine the vote, three pages, if that’s not subjective than you and I need to get this definition settled before carrying on.


I couldn’t agree more. But let’s see, in Florida they’ve had four years to remedy the problem and they haven’t, wonder why? Remind me again who’s the governor there? The Republican congress passed the Help American Vote act, but failed to provide funding. Is this merely a GOP coincidence? Surely.

To take Cube’s GUI example a step further, any system, digital or paper, needs to be designed to the lowest common denominator for those who will use the system. Nationally, we’re not even close.

I ate at McDonalds too much and got fat. It's McDonalds fault.

I Smoked my whole life and died of lung cancer. It's the tobacco companies fault.

I messed up my punch card and didn't take the time to check it before turning it in. It's the Republicans fault.

No, I don't think it's extreme. It's possible and is one way in which votes may be miscounted.


It's not one in a million and there are other ways in which chads can be problematic. Hanging chads may also gum up the mechanism which counts the votes themselves. Little bits of paper and machinery often don't mix well. However, for good evidence, go here (pdf). It shows that residual votes rates, ballots without valid votes, were worse using punch cards than any other voting system (at least in California).


Don't get me wrong. I have a huge problem with courts deciding the outcomes of elections. It demonstrates a failure point in our democracy. Right now, I'm at a loss as to any better mechanism.


Well, this is a fair criticism. If only a certain fractional percentage of votes are miscounted due to problems with punch cards, then it may not be worth it. However, it seemed to be an important factor in the Florida elections of 2000. I'd like to see this issue resolved by doing away with punch cards altogether.

Well your interpretation of the concept of Accountability and Personal responsiblity are not mine. For example, I believe that every American who is both stable and not a convicted felon should be allowed to own a firearm. I also believe that anyone who has children around and keeps a loaded firearm unsecure enough that a child gets ahold of it and harms or kills them self or someone else the owner should be charged with criminal negligence. I believe everyone should have the right to vote. However, I also believe that people who don't bother to look into registering to vote, and finally get around to it after the registration deadline should be out of luck. I believe that if you choose to ignore evacuation orders in the face of a hurricane like storm and then end up trapped in you home the city should charge you for the expense of rescuing you. To me, personal responsiblity is all inclusive.




Actually, what I said in it's entirety was:

(Emphasis added)

Taking that one part of one sentence alone completely takes it out of context.





You are aware of the fact that Election Boards are county level entities? They control the process in their counties and they purchase the replacement machines. Also, I believe you will find that at least a few of the counties still using these machines in Florida are controlled by Democrats.

This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, it is a funding issue, as well as an issue with the quality of the alternatives. Some counties choose not to fund replacements because of the cost, others because of concerns about the quality of alternative methods and at least a few probably out of pure laziness.



Well I sure would like to see some proof backing up that this is a substantial problem, rather then a very infrequent one.



First problem I have with this link is that I have no clue where it is from, or who the person is who authored it, or his credentials. The second problem I have is that it is comparing numbers from a Presidential Election to a Recall election. A recall election is unheard of and odd situation. If they want to compare real numbers they will have to wait to compare the numbers from next weeks election to the 2000 election.






Well the question is, what made it an important factor in Florida? Was it the actual issue, or was it the manipulation of it by "Fat White Pink Boys"* on both sides?

*A term used to describe Sycophants and yes men in politics, in "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day" by Joe Scarborough.

Lastly, I woud like to start the call / demand for recounts early. I DEMAND a recount of the World Series results. Obviously there has been some major flaws and player disenfranchisement that resulted in such unlikely results!!

The numbers are for the 1996, 2000 as well as 2003 elections (recall was only 2003). If you don't like Henry E. Brady's authority. Then, here are a few other links:

Douglas Jones's Chad Page
Scripps Howard News Service
In fact, just do a google search.


You'll get no argument from me that Fat White Pink Boys were involved with the less than reputable Florida election. However, it was clear at the time that ambiguity in punch card ballots were an issue in 2000. There are a number of ballot mechanisms that don't have the same level of ambiguity. Using them will eliminate one source of contention.

Thanks for clarifying Mr. (DR.??) Brady's credentials. They were probably in the PDF file you liked too at one point, possibly on a cover sheet. However, the cover sheet (assuming there was one) was not in the file.

In the first like above:


Well that would appear to be a real mechanical defect. I would imagine it would be easy to remedy, simply do not use those positions on the punch cards on future ballot designs. Another issue on these ballots was the placement of the punch holes in regards to the placement of the candidates. A good article on this

Something of interest to those that like to suggest that this was all done in advance by Republican design (which I am not suggesting Logophage or anyone else here is): The Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections was Theresa LePore, a Democrat. Another interesting note is that she was re-elected. Go figure.

From your second link above:



Please note that we are talking about "Dozens" of ballot problems. Seems to suggest to me that this is a small problem, though since it was such a small election, it is hard to tell definitively either way.

The bottom line for me is that I think we need a better system. For that matter I think we should hold election day on the 2nd Saturday of the month. However, until this happens we have to take into account the various problems that might come up and try to prevent them. We are beyond the time to prevent problems on the ballots themselves, so now all we can do is educate people and warn them to carefully read instructions, carefully punch the cards, and inspect the card after then vote in ensure no hanging chads, or pregnant chads exist. I really don't think asking people to be careful when voting to determine the winner of the most powerful office in America (next to Greenspan ) is too much to ask.

Thanks for the link. And yes I absolutely agree with the conclusions of the article. This is one reason why blame is not always on the voter. Poor design can lead to incorrect outcomes. The mechanical defects of the punch card reader can likely be remedied, however money would be better spent rolling out a superior ballot mechanism. The evidence suggests punch card ballots are simply inferior to other mechanisms.


Eh... I'm no conspiracy theorist so I mostly attribute Florida to incompetence rather than malice. I am sure though that there was voter fraud and it may have been a factor in Florida. Republicans were not the only ones playing that game though.


Sure. I included the link to lend credence to your original criticism that this may be too small of an effect to be significant. I don't want to be accused of confirmation bias. Still, it does add more grist for the lawsuit mill. I'd rather rid ourselves of at least this one source problems than deal with the aftermath. I wouldn't be surprised if money is saved overall by doing so.


I agree with your points, overlandsailer. It is too late to change for this election, but I believe it should be changed for the next. Where I live we have ballots where you fill in an arrow pointing to your candidate using a permanent ink marker. The ballot is then passed through an optical reader machine and stored in a cartridge. I'm pretty happy with it. I recall reading somewhere that it has the best track record as well (can't find a link though).

For as long s I can recall, I used the punch card ballots. Before I left the voting booth, I always carefully examined my punch card ballots to see that the appropriate numbers had been punched out. I'm certain it irritated people waiting to vote, and I never found a ballot that was mis-punched, but I have a general distrust of computers, machinery, etc.

What caused me to come looking for a place to post though, is the latest George W. Bush approved message which was airing on my television...

In elementary school, I was taught that when using a paper ballot with squares, the vote could only be counted if there was an X intersecting within the square. Voting in church and union elections was the only place it ever seemed relevant, but for thirty years I heard the same rule stressed before each election; whether to hire a minister, elect union officers, or to approve a contract. Perhaps it is unique to Michigan law, or perhaps it is a widespread guideline.

Nonetheless, the latest ad on television opens with the usual caveat, "I'm George W. Bush, and I approved this message." A ballot listing the Republican positions is then shown, and every single square is marked with a check mark. Then the Democrat's positions are shown, and an X is placed in every square. " Not many would dare to suggest that the voters apparent lack of skills a class of 3rd graders had was responsible for the goofs on these ballots." Nonetheless, what a third grader would likely recognize, in Michigan at least; is that the only votes that would be counted if that were a real ballot are the votes where there was an X in the box. Perhaps the President had not seen such a ballot since the third grade and was unaware of what he was endorsing. Perhaps Karl Rove pulled a dirty trick on him.

If the President of the United States can make a simple mistake about how to use a paper ballot when approving a campaign ad to show people how he wants us to vote, I am not really going to question the ability of the average voter to use a voting machine. A simple caveat. Before you go to vote, learn as much as possible about the technology that is going to be used. Locally, both major political parties have pointed out that if you vote by absentee ballot, there is a clear paper trail. Our city clerks said that they were overwhelmed with the response. The waiting line was short compared to election day however. The actual ballot had a very interesting way of marking the ballot, something I had not seen before, but very clear as to what needed to be done.