I voted yest because I am African American, and when a video continues to demean women, it seems quite racist to me. I am new here on America's Debate, so I am still learning the system. I am not sure, but I heard that BET is owned by white people. I think that is the reason why they would rather show these demeaning videos instead of showing blacks how to get educated and move up in the world in a legal way. I do think it is the black people who do these thing's fault for alloying this. But everybody who has something to do with this has a little at stake in it.

Welcome to the debate Tim. One thing you can do to establish credibility in your arguments is to provide evidence to back up your bold and potentially inflammatory assumptions.



As to your first opinion:



I would ask you if, upon reflection, the demeaning of women in videos "seems" to be more of an example of "sexism" than "racism"?

This is totally ridiculous. Where to begin? First of all, many rap lyrics dont "sound like" ebonics, they are ebonics. Im not sure where your logical leap that ebonics-equals-racism comes from. Secondly there are plenty of rappers that use standard english in their raps, the first person to come to mind it Mos Def. From his album Black on Both Sides, "Love"

I start to think, and then I sink
into the paper, like I was ink
When Im writing Im trapped in between the line
I escape when I finish the rhyme

Sounds just like a black guy, doesn't it?



Well it'd be stupid of me to say that rap isn't a mostly black phenomenon, but that doesn't mean it's racist. Earlier in the thread, someone pointed out that if rap is racist, then so is country music. Just because there's alot of black people in rap music doesnt make it racist. And again, Eminem isnt "trying" to speak in ebonics, he [i]is[/is] speaking ebonics and he's not trying to be black. Its not hard to figure out why he talks like he does. He grew up in a poor neighborhood, poor people tend to have poor grammar and lots of slang in their vocab. No mystery there.

Additionally, there are plenty of white guys in rap, they may not be as popular as Em but they are around. People who are really into hiphop will know who they are, and others who aren't won't. Off the top of my head is Atmosphere, DJ Shadow, Ugly Duckling. They are pretty popular in hip hop circles. People that know nothing about rap like to sit around bemoaning the racism and sexism in rap, but the reality is they don't know what theyre talking about.



Learn the difference between sexism and racism. This thread happens to be about racism. Demeaning women tends to fall under the category of "sexism," which this thread is not about.



Ludicrous! (or Ludacris...hee hee) OK, BET's parent company is Viacom which is owned by white people (they also own MTV, Showtime and others) but the CEO of BET is the guy who started it, Robert L. Johnson, a black guy.

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/...lackenterta.htm


Also the BET factsheet stating that Johnson is the CEO:
http://www.hoovers.com/black-entertainment...factsheet.xhtml

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what Tim's saying. I read it as that the rap videos routinely demean women, and since rap is heavily associated with African-American culture, the implication is that black people are inherently misogynistic. Therefore, the videos are racist.

I'm not sure I agree with that, because rap, like most popular music, is targeted towards young, semi-educated men. They want to see cleavage and have a "player" to idolise, so that's what they get. They're not yet old enough to think about the anti-feminist implications.

That would still make them sexist, not racist.

First, being educated does not reduce your desire to see cleavage. As far as the anit-feminist remark, we know its only entertainment, so its not taken seriously.

No, it makes them racist for implying that sexism is a part of black culture!

There are some Republicans who murder children. Should we have a debate that asks if Republicans are baby murderers? There are some US soldiers who rape women during wars. Should we ask the question: are American soldiers rapists?

The very question here is not only fallacious, but dangerous. To make the leap from the few examples, to the judgement of a whole entity is at the heart of how racism and general exclusionary practices begin. By depersonalizing and generalizing.

Of course generalizations are instinctive and inescapable. It behooves us as members of the human race, however, to try and always remain aloof from this process; to not let it control our actions.

Are rap videos racist? Some are. Are American soldiers rapists? Some are. Are Republicans child murderers? Some are. The problem is, as soon as we generalize, we are closing our minds to individuality and uniqueness - and to the possibility that within any group are a broad and infinite variety of people; and that every one of those people has a whole entire life story, with all its pains and joys, just like you.

"Rap vidoes" cannot, by definition, be racist. This is because "rap videos" as a term has no defining content. There is no book of rules about rap videos and what kind of content they may contain.

Regional dialects come about naturally. Normally it is not an issue. But when words are deliberately spelled to sound like a specific dialect or accent, it becomes the focus. Not only are the words important, but the dialect also becomes important.



Well, I am certainly no fan of rap. I only hear what is popular, and everything I hear is spoken in ebonics.



No, it doesn't make it racist. I never said it did. It is racist because of the other reasons I mentioned.




Do you even know what the word "ebonics" means? It basically means "black speech". It doesn't mean "poor speech". I am white and grew up very poor. I never spoke in "ebonics". None of other poor white friends spoke in ebonics. When white people talk in ebonics (which means "black speech"), by definition they are trying to be black, or at least imitating blacks.



This doesn't mean that they don't face predjudice for being white though.



Rap videos cannot be racist. Only people can be racist. But the rap industry is made up of people, and these people promote racial predjudice. Since rap videos is a product of the racist rap industry, I think it can be deduced that rap videos perpetuate racism.

This hardly makes rap racist, so Im not sure why it's even being mentioned by you.



Yes, I know what ebonics means. The point I was trying to make was that if Eminem grew up in a predominantly poor black neighborhood, he would ultimately end up speaking ebonics, regardless of him being white. And ebonics doesn't mean black speech, not literally. While ebonics may have its roots in black people speaking it, its absurd to say that only black people speak it. Like language isnt transferrable between races...Step into the real world, it is. Therefore someone speaking ebonics doesn't have to be black, and that doesn't mean they are trying to act black. Obviously, there are cases where that is true, but there are quite a few others where it is not.

Well that’s where you’re wrong. Ebonics is not just a regional dialect, it is racial. And because these rap songs are spelled out to stress this dialect, the dialect becomes an important part of the music’s sound, not just the lyrics and rhythm. And the only popular non-black people I hear rapping adopt this “black speech” pattern. Therefore you cannot say that this speech pattern is not an inherently important aspect of the music.



Do you know for a fact that he grew up in a black neighborhood? I heard he didn’t.



I’m afraid it does. It is based on the word cells “ebony” and “phonics”. Ebony meaning “black”, and phonics meaning “speech sounds”. So by definition ebonics means black speech sounds.



That is like saying it is absurd that only British people would speak with a British accent. Why would anyone else speak with a British accent unless they were trying to be Brittish? Imagine if young American kids started really getting into British music and started using British slang words and speaking with fake British accents. It would be seen as pretentious and trite. And imagine if the music industry promoted this idea that a very important part of the appeal of this music is it's very "Britishness".

This is really no different than the rap industry promoting black people as being “cool” and in order to be cool you have to act black. So as sad as it is that rappers like Eminim and Vanilla Ice had to adopt an ebonics accent, it was necessary for their career success as rappers.

And, like it or not, those rappers did face racial discrimination from the rap industry because they were white, which is proof in and of itself that the rap industry is racist.

I think you missed my point, as well as the topic for discussion here.

First, the question for debate is specifically, are rap videos racist.

Second, you show you missed my point by continuing to use depersonalizing generalizations about a group. You say, "the racist rap industry." How can this be? Didn't you even admit that only people can be racist? The only group of people it could be fair to label as racist would be, well, racists. And it's true: racists are, as a group, racist. Unless you have some sort of proof that everyone involved in the rap industry is racist. Even white people like the Beastie Boys, Eminem, and Rick Rubin.

It may salient to point out that the "birth of rock and roll" in this country was all about white people imitating black music... you may not like rap, but all the popular music we listen to today owes its most important roots in black music - and that includes country.

I realize the topic for debate is rap videos. But I think you missed my point. The rap industry is racist because it perpetuates the ideal of equating "coolness" with being black. The industry is made up of people who promote this attitude. So as a result the industry, as a whole, is a racist regardless of whether or not each particular person is.




This comment brings up a whole different argument. Why is it that when black people start a new form of music, it is assumed that it is 100% completely new and not influenced by anything coming before it, yet when white people do, it is always considered "borrowing" from something else.

For example rock and roll was equal parts white and black influence, yet people only point out the black influence. When blues came out, it may have been a new form of music, but it was influenced by music that came before. When jazz came out, it originally was not all that different from certain types of blue grass, yet no one ever points this out. Keep in mind that the black styles of music in this country were not brought with them from Africa, they were primarily influenced by American music that was played by whites. Also, the whole rap concept of rhyming lyrics rhythmically spoken was first done by whites back in the 1800s (ever heard square dance music?).

And regarding your comment about all of the popular music we listen to having roots in black music, what forms of music were originated by black people in the last 30 years? Funk, Rap, Hip Hop, and what else? White people have originated punk, new wave, glam, grunge, alternative, ambient, goth, dark wave, black metal, death metal, doom, thrash, new age, hard core, and probably a few others that I've forgotten about. Also, none of those forms of music are about white people imitating blacks.

You're comment is a perfect example of how brainwashed our society has become. There are so many people that have been led to believe that anything of artistic value has been originated by black people. This is flat out propaganda.

Hmmm. Even if you are right, that the rap industry "perpetuates the ideal of equating "coolness" with being black," how would that be racist? What do you suppose racism is, anyway?



Well, here you are getting into an area in which I actually have some specialized knowledge. Let me see, where to start...

"For example rock and roll was equal parts white and black influence, yet people only point out the black influence."

Really? Equal parts, huh? That's simply not true. The beat which defined rock and roll is the direct descendent of West African drumming rhythms, particularly the funga and its relatives. The melodic structure of early rock and roll came directly from the blues, which came directly from, again, West African griot singing.

"When blues came out, it may have been a new form of music, but it was influenced by music that came before."

True. It was almost entirely influenced by West African griot traditions.

"When jazz came out, it originally was not all that different from certain types of blue grass, yet no one ever points this out'

Bluegrass as a form didn't get defined until well after Jazz was around. You may be referring to what we now call "old-time" music, the predecessor of Bluegrass. Let's look at the instruments. The banjo? Came from Africa. As did the guitar - modeled on the oud, and the even older ngoni.


"Keep in mind that the black styles of music in this country were not brought with them from Africa, they were primarily influenced by American music that was played by whites. Also, the whole rap concept of rhyming lyrics rhythmically spoken was first done by whites back in the 1800s (ever heard square dance music?). "

Um, just totally untrue. In fact, even rap has its African antecedents in the griot tradition. More recently, it developed from the "toasting" styles of... black Jamaican DJs.

"White people have originated punk, new wave, glam, grunge, alternative, ambient, goth, dark wave, black metal, death metal, doom, thrash, new age, hard core, and probably a few others that I've forgotten about. Also, none of those forms of music are about white people imitating blacks."

Those aren't really new forms of music. Funk, rap, and hip hop aren't either. They are all building on basics, and those basics came largely from African musical traditions. Even Salsa music has its origins in West African rhythms.

"You're comment is a perfect example of how brainwashed our society has become. There are so many people that have been led to believe that anything of artistic value has been originated by black people. This is flat out propaganda."

Sorry, I disagree. While modern American music may have its main and deepest roots in African music, that does not negate any music of artistic value. Whites are just as capable as blacks at producing good music of any type.

I can't believe Im arguing about this. Ebonics started out as racial, but it's not quite that way anymore. To deny that is to deny reality. Language is fluid, it doesn't know race barriers. Therefore, it is perfectly normal that people other than blacks would start speaking ebonics. Why is it such a foreign concept that perhaps those people aren't "adopting" ebonics, but learning it? Language isn't racist, people are.



I don't know for a fact, but based on what I've read and his own assertion that D-12 (all black) were his closest friends I think it's a fair assumption. And even if he didn't, I would say having at least six black friends is going to influence your speech pattern.



Poor choice of words on my part. I think you know what I was trying to say. Pretty much what I wrote above.



It is nothing like that. Being British is a nationality, so of course people who grew up in Britian would have British accents. Some people tend to speak with a British accent because they've spent some time in Britian. I know a few Americans who've lived in the UK and they come back sounding British. Not because they're trying to act British, but because people happen to pick up the speech patterns of their friends. You're saying that only black people speak ebonics naturally and that's patently false. Anyone can speak ebonics, it is not based on race. If someone grows up in an area where a certain dialect or language is spoken, then they will inevitably speak the same dialect or language. And, in general, people tend to pick up words and phrasing from people, if they are around them long enough. I lived in France for a year and a half, and I learned French. Going by your logic, only French people would speak French and no one else would. Unfortunatley for you, logic and science are not on your side, people inherently pick up speech patterns if they are around them long enough, regardless of race or social class.



I think this is ridiculous. Since when was being black cool? I don't see anyone wearing Blackface or going through reconstructive surgery because they want to be black so much. What the industry is promoting is money and lavish lifestyles.



Are you joking? Rap was influenced by reggae, which was in turn influenced by tribal African music. I don't think this is a far stretch, seeing how both rely on heavy bass lines and drum beats. While Im sure other forms of music also influenced black music, to say that it was primarily influenced by whites is absurd. Or could you at least back up that argument with some concrete facts?

Additionally, you list "hardcore, goth, new wave, grunge, alternative" etc. as having been "invented" by whites. All these genres tend to fall under the same category of rock, or electronica. One could easily say that blacks invented just as many genres of music if we included all the subcategories of each genre. For instance, under the title of jazz, theres also: swing, hot, sweet, bebop etc. Or under rap, theres: old school, new school, progressive, etc.

Umm, hello. Are you stupid? To equate a specific race as being "cool' is racist. It is racist because it promotes racial stereotypes.




The "beat" which you refer to is only one aspect of the music. The same "beat" was quite popular before rock n roll.



Sorry. The melodic structure of the blues is based on the "blues scale" or "minor pentatontic scale". This scale is not a new scale. it is a sub-set of the natural minor scale which is European. So you could say that the blues scale was BORROWED, from the European natural minor scale.




Well as a matter of fact, yes they are. It's easy to say that music isn't new without facts to back it up. Do you know anything about any of these forms of music which I mentioned? I think not. If you did then you would know that these forms of music are new.



Oh No? And why? Because you say so? I'm afraid you can't just change the dictionary's definition like that just because you don't agree with it.


Yes. Language doesn't know race barriers. But racial dialects do. That's why they are racial dialects and not regional dialects.

Oh. And are you also saying that rhyme and rhythm aren’t the defining elements of rap? Because square-dance songs were the first to stress rhyme and rhythm. So you could say that rap was “borrowed” from white Americans.

Well, yes, I am stupid. But I am learning to be human all the time. One day I will maybe not be stupid anymore.

To say, "I think white people are cool," is a stereotype and a generalization, and as such it leads to narrowed thinking; it is not, however, racist. Negative stereotypes can be used as tools in the service of racism. or they can be the result of racist thought patterns; in themselves, however, they are merely ignorant, not racist.



True. It was popular before rock and roll. But it still came almost entirely from Africa. Have you heard the funga rhythm? I suggest you give it a listen. It clearly contains the trademark: beat one, low tone (kick drum, today); beat two, high tone (snare), beat three, double low tone, beat four, high tone.



Not exactly. The scale which became the predominant scale used in blues contained many microtones that did not appear in European scales. In the West African scale, there was no third, no seventh, no flat third or flat seventh. Approximating the in-betweens became known as "blues tonality." It was when music copyists began to try and chart the blues songs they heard, that they tried to fit it into known European scales. The minor pentatonic became the approximated scale, but the blues contains melodic and rhythmic subtleties which cannot be written in standard notation.



You made the assertion they are new, and you did not back it up with any facts; why should you call me out for that? I do know something about the musical genres you mentioned, actually. I am a professional musician, and an amateur musicologist. I'm really not just pulling things out of the aether.

Here's the list you provided: punk, new wave, glam, grunge, alternative, ambient, goth, dark wave, black metal, death metal, doom, thrash, new age, hard core.

Of these, I have written and played both punk and hardcore. They are both new ways of playing rock music. You are describing sub-genres of rock. They may be innovative, exciting, horrible, or whatever, but they are certainly not new types of music in the same way that Jazz or Rock and Roll or the Blues were.

And I never said that those three were entirely black creations - in fact, they were the result of African music intersecting with the indigenous music of the European people - note, by that I do not mean European classical music, rather the "folk" music who's roots were in the European serf classes.

This side-tracking has been edifying, but let's please stick to the topic for debate: are rap videos racist? You answered that yourself, earlier:


We agree. Question answered. If you would like to continue any of this other talk about music, or about ebonics, please start an appropriate thread.

Thank you.