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moif
Almost ignored by the western media thanks to the war in Iraq, there is a humanitarian crisis unfolding in the Ivory Coast. 4,600 French soldiers and some 10,000 UN troops are stationed there to try and stop the violence from spreading and the UK and the US have made moves to safe guard their ex pats. Foreign nationals and especially people of European ethnicity are leaving the country as fast as possible, citing rape, looting and murder as why.

The President of Ivory Coast, Laurent Gbagbo, has accused France of taking sides against the Ivory Coast.

Questions for debate:

Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Further articles on the subject can be read here:

Press deals out blame for Ivorian crisis: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4003985.stm
French flown out of Ivory Coast : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3998549.stm
Ivory Coast calm as UK troops arrive: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4002237.stm
South Africa Tries to Mediate a Peace Deal in Ivory Coast: http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/latimes392.htm
Hundreds more flee Ivory Coast: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/12/news/ivory.html
Foreigners Flee Ivory Coast as Violence Lingers: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/internat...728854672bade46
Rebels in IC say they have not been invited to talks: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/internat...b835152f6abbdfc
France Blamed in Ivorian Unrest: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer
Ivory Coast Violence Breaks French Connection: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer
Rioters rape Europeans as they flee from Ivory Coast: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa...sp?story=582475
Ivory Coast casts doubt over Paris’s global policies: http://www.sundayherald.com/45954
Eyewitness: Ivory Coast terror: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3995429.stm
Foreigners Leaving Ivory Coast Despite Government Assurances: http://www.voanews.com/english/CN049-IVORY-COAST-111304.cfm
Ivory Coast urges expats to stay: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4008657.stm
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Cyan
Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?

A little bit of both, I think.

The anti-French sentiment in the Ivory Coast is related to the actions of the French during the colonial period and in the years following it, but that doesn't mean that the French are entirely to blame in this situation. The Ivory Coast has become extremely nationalistic and xenophobic, perhaps in response to the years in which the French had an assimilation policy in effect, but while the root causes and cultural change may be traced back to colonialism, the current situation is about citizenship issues and the fact that at least 40% of the population have been disenfranchised by the current government.

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

France has maintained troops in the Ivory Coast, has economic interests there, and a large number of their citizens living within the borders. For that reason alone, France carries a burden of responsibility. As far as the effect of colonialism goes, things get a little bit sticky. France has maintained strong economic ties with the Ivory Coast and has a strong influence on the political situation there, so I would say that yes, they do have some responsibility based on their history with the Ivory Coast, but I don't really know how much responsibility to place on them.

The current government acted as the aggressor in this situation, and France retaliated. In response, civilians who are not "pure" Ivoirians have been attacked. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me, and the current government of the Côte d'Ivoire needs to address the issue of their government sponsored xenophobia and the reasons why the people in the north are rebelling.

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?

It is racism, and it's not just white people who are being forced to flee from the Ivory Coast.
Bonnie
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 14 2004, 11:58 AM)
Almost ignored by the western media thanks to the war in Iraq, there is a humanitarian crisis unfolding in the Ivory Coast. 4,600 French soldiers and some 10,000 UN troops are stationed there to try and stop the violence from spreading and the UK and the US have made moves to safe guard their ex pats. Foreign nationals and especially people of European ethnicity are leaving the country as fast as possible, citing rape, looting and murder as why.

The President of Ivory Coast, Laurent Gbagbo, has accused France of taking sides against the Ivory Coast.

Questions for debate:

Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




I have a couple question. According to two articles at Reuters, in part:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L16211357.htm

"The 15-nation U.N. Security Council unanimously adopted the French resolution on Monday after Gbagbo's forces launched bombing raids on the rebel-held north two weeks ago, breaking an 18-month truce and killing nine French soldiers."

Why does France still have military in the Ivory Coast?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16160812.htm

"Following a cease-fire, more than 10,000 French and U.N. peacekeepers were deployed to keep the two sides apart."

When did countries start having peackeepers?

Bonnie us.gif
Cyan
QUOTE(Bonnie)
Why does France still have military in the Ivory Coast?


They are taking part in a peacekeeping operation to secure the Linas-Marcoussis Cease-Fire Agreement. Please note that the link opens a .PDF file.

QUOTE(Bonnie)
When did countries start having peackeepers?


I'm not sure what you're asking here. There are many countries that have peacekeepers.

From the UN Peacekeeping FAQ

QUOTE
The Charter of the United Nations gives the UN Security Council the power and responsibility to take collective action to maintain international peace and security. For this reason, the international community usually looks to the Security Council to authorize peacekeeping operations. Most of these operations are established and implemented by the United Nations itself with troops serving under UN operational command. In other cases, where direct UN involvement is not considered appropriate or feasible, the Council authorizes regional organizations such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the Economic Community of West African States or coalitions of willing countries to implement certain peacekeeping or peace enforcement functions.
Horyok
Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?

None of the above. The current turmoil has been created by loyalists of president Bagbo accusing France of helping and favoring the rebels in the North.

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

No. Our soldiers had been placed there to keep the peace between the loyalists of president Bagbo and the muslim separatists in the North. Thay had a mandate from the UN and were scattered in outposts along the 'border' between the two rival factions. They also had a supplementary mission which was to protect the French (and occidental) community located in and around Abidjan, on the coast.

More than two weeks ago, Bagbo decided to launch a strike against the rebels to the North and by doing so, broke a truce that had lasted for a year between the two sides. The Ivorian army knew where to strike. Some Israeli mercenaries (intelligence specialists) actually helped them gather the necessary data to act.

In the bombings, 9 French soldiers were killed near Bouaké. As a retaliation against the Ivorian forces, France destroyed all the planes and a few helicopters of the Ivorian army.

People close to Bagbo told the militia that this act meant the French were actually siding with the rebels. That resulted in very violent demonstrations. In order to protect the embassy, French soldiers had to fire at the crowd and some demonstrators were killed (however, the exact number of dead is unknown).

The militia sought revenge and proceeded to loot and destroy the houses of the 'white' people in Abidjan. The situation got very bad and 6.000 French people had to be exfiltrated from the country, along with Spanish, Lebanese and English citizens.

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?

A quick glance at the situation would make you think this is racism in action. I believe it's more of a manipulation of the crowd by the presidential power. The loot of French houses, the rapes of two French women and the destruction of many jobs was more of a smokescreen for the military failure than happened on the border.

In other words, the chase against the whites was an excuse because the chase against the rebels had failed.
Cyan
QUOTE(Haryok)
A quick glance at the situation would make you think this is racism in action.


Haryok, if you don't mind, I would like to get your take on the situation between the rebels and the government. The information that I have come across portrays it as a situation where the people in the north have contributed a significant amount of labor towards building the country up, but they are being left out of the Democratic process because of the xenophobic policies of the current government or "pure Ivoirian pride."
Bonnie
QUOTE(Cyan @ Nov 16 2004, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE(Bonnie)
Why does France still have military in the Ivory Coast?


They are taking part in a peacekeeping operation to secure the Linas-Marcoussis Cease-Fire Agreement. Please note that the link opens a .PDF file.

So France really has no legal rights any longer towards the Ivory Coast since they (the IC) are no longer connected with the French community since they permitted their community membership to lapse when they became independent August 7. 1960. In essence, France is getting all its power from the United Nations.

QUOTE(Bonnie)
When did countries start having peackeepers?


I'm not sure what you're asking here. There are many countries that have peacekeepers.

From the UN Peacekeeping FAQ

QUOTE
The Charter of the United Nations gives the UN Security Council the power and responsibility to take collective action to maintain international peace and security. For this reason, the international community usually looks to the Security Council to authorize peacekeeping operations. Most of these operations are established and implemented by the United Nations itself with troops serving under UN operational command. In other cases, where direct UN involvement is not considered appropriate or feasible, the Council authorizes regional organizations such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the Economic Community of West African States or coalitions of willing countries to implement certain peacekeeping or peace enforcement functions.

*



Thanks for this information. I had always heard the term peackeepers used only in connection with the United Nations. So why in your estimation, as the above section you quoted says:

"In other cases, where direct UN involvement is not considered appropriate or feasible"

Why isn't it feasible for the United Nations to be involved in that situation versus France?

Bonnie
mrsparkle.gif
Cyan
The UN does have peacekeepers in the region, and France has additional troops to support them. I think the total number was something like 10,000 troops with 4,000 of those being French.

Additionally, even though the ivory coast were granted independence in the 60s, the Ivory Coast has chosen to maintain close ties with France and vice versa. France helped to broker the peace deal.
moif
Bonnie

QUOTE
Why isn't it feasible for the United Nations to be involved in that situation versus France?
I would guess its because France has both heavy fire power and the will to use it.

The UN can only act as a buffer zone. The French troops on the other hand can retaliate as we saw with regards to the destruction of the Ivorian airforce.

In many ways, France is acting much in the same way as the USA is in Iraq, only on a far smaller scale and along side the UN rather than as opposed to it. That France has chosen to do so is undoubtably due to the large French ethnic population of the Ivory Coast.

From my perspective, it looks to me like the Ivorians are now trying to use organised anti French/ white racism as a means by which to strike back against the French. They must know that they cannot hope to defeat the French militarily, so they are using ethnic warfare as a means to hit back.

I wonder if they believe the French will withdraw if the ethnic French population abandons the Ivory Coast? It certainly seems that that is their goal.
Bonnie
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 17 2004, 05:41 PM)
In many ways, France is acting much in the same way as the USA is in Iraq, only on a far smaller scale and along side the UN rather than as opposed to it.
*



I don't agree with your analogy. I don't think the Ivorians are a threat to world peace like Iraq. Saddam was known to support terror by sending money to the famalies of body-bombers. When UNSCOM investigated Iraq there were tons of CS & Mustard Gas, Nerve gas: Sarin and Tabun, Nerve gas : VX (the most toxic of all known chemical warfare agents) and Precursors that were never accounted for. The true extent of Iraq's production and holdings of chemical agents has never been fully verified.

France did everything they could to stop the UN from acting to enforce its own resolutions against Iraq. When President Bush set Monday, March 10, 2003 as the deadline for Saddam and that Monday dawned, Jacque Chirac called for another meeting of the Security Council to further debate the continued inspections of Iraq by UNMOVIC, at about 10 a.m. Colin Powell announced that the time for diplomacy had passed, and that we wouldn't seek a UN vote on what would have been the eighteenth UN "disarm Saddam" resolution.

France was working against us even before the Iraq campaign. At that time still regarded as an American ally, it was receiving part of the intelligence information we gathered about Iraq, and passing this information to the Iraqis. It is also believed they passed information to Milosevic during the bombing campaigns in Kosovo and Belgrade. That's the act of an enemy not an ally, France has chosen to be our enemies' spy, and their arms merchant. French weapons and other materials have been found stockpiled in Iraq. France was apparently selling to the Iraquis in violation of the UN arms embargo.

I'm off the bed sleeping.gif Check you later.

Bonnie
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moif
I think you misunderstood me Bonnie. I was not saying that the Ivory Coast is the same as Iraq, but rather that the French troops are acting in the Ivory Coast in a similar fashion to the US troops in Iraq.

That is to say, they are operating there in the context of a UN mandate, as national peace keepers rather than as UN peace keepers.




editted to add:

Here is a slightly more detailed explanation of events as I understand them at this point:

Time line of recent events in the Ivory Coast

01 July 1999
Africa threatens chocolate fight: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/383525.stm

12 Nov 1999
Ivory Coast opposition leaders jailed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/517217.stm

24 Dec 1999
Analysis; Ivory Coasts stability shattered: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/577312.stm

25 Dec 1999
President Henri Konan Bedie’s government is overthrown by a military coup led by General Robert Guei.
Henri Konan Bedie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Konan_B%E9di%E9
Robert Guei: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gu%E9%EF
Ivory Coast president facing exile: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/577211.stm

05 July 2004
Why the world watches Abidjan: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/820174.stm
Ivory Coasts ‘Le Boss’: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/820341.stm
Ivory coast ‘deal’ over army pay: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/820350.stm

20 Sept 2000
Security moves in Ivory Coast: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/929966.stm

20 Oct 2000
Robert Guei. Deposed Ruler: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/930254.stm

22 Oct 2000
Elections held. General Guei claims victory but a popular revolt places Laurent Koudou Gbagbo in power. Gbagbo claims to have won 59.4% of the vote.
Laurent Koudou Gbagbo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurent_Gbagbo

19 Sept 2002
Rebel forces attempt to seize several major cities. They fail to take Abidjan but take Bouaké and Korhogo.
Ivorian ex military ruled killed in mutiny: http://www.afrol.com/News2002/civ027_guei_killed.htm

18 Feb 2004
Ethnic split stirs Ivory Coast crisis: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3496069.stm

25 Sept 2004
Ivorian troops fight to retake Bouaké: http://www.afrol.com/News2002/civ032_bouake_fights.htm

29 Sept 2004
The Ivorian Parliament fails to meet deadline for political reforms.
Ghana’s trade gains from conflict: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3205723.stm

15 Oct 2004
Rebel forces in the Ivory Coast ignore the deadline for disarmament.

28 Oct 2004
The rebels with draw from the Unity Government.

04 Nov 2004
Ivorian air strikes commence against Rebel positions.

05 Nov 2004
Ivory Coast peace in tatters: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3986403.stm

06 Nov 2004
Ivory coast attacks an airbase and kills 9 French soldiers. France retaliates and destroys the entire Ivorian air force (2 jets and a couple of helicopters)

07 Nov 2004
Supporters of President Gbagbo demonstrate against the French in Abidjan. The rioting and violence continues for several days.
The UN condemns Ivorian attacks.


08 Nov 2004
France’s Ivorian quagmire: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3993265.stm
Eyewitness: mobs on the rampage in Abidjan: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3992289.stm

09 Nov 2004
Israeli Defence Ministry Director General Amos Yaron promises to stop supplying military equipment to the Ivory Coast army.
Eyewitness: Ivory Coast terror: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3995429.stm
Unrest blocks Ivory Coast cocoa: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3996259.stm

10 Nov 2004
France begins to evacuate its citizens from the Ivory Coast.
French flown out of Ivory Coast: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4003985.stm

11 Nov 2004
Britain deploys Ghurkha’s to help evacuate 400 British citizens from the Ivory Coast.
Press deals out blame for Ivorian crisis: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4003985.stm
Ivory Coast calm as UK troops arrive: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4002237.stm

12 Nov 2004
South Africa Tries to Mediate a Peace Deal in Ivory Coast: http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/latimes392.htm
Rebels in IC say they have not been invited to talks: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/internat...b835152f6abbdfc
France Blamed in Ivorian Unrest: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

13 Nov 2004
Hundreds more flee Ivory Coast: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/12/news/ivory.html
Foreigners Flee Ivory Coast as Violence Lingers: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/internat...728854672bade46
Ivory Coast Violence Breaks French Connection: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer
Rioters rape Europeans as they flee from Ivory Coast: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa...sp?story=582475
Foreigners Leaving Ivory Coast Despite Government Assurances: http://www.voanews.com/english/CN049-IVORY-COAST-111304.cfm
Ivory Coast urges expats to stay: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4008657.stm

14 Nov 2004
Ivory Coast casts doubt over Paris’s global policies: http://www.sundayherald.com/45954

15 Nov 2004
The UN approves an arms embargo on Ivory Coast and sanctions are imposed.
Security council imposes immediate arms embargo: http://allafrica.com/stories/200411160011.html

16 Nov 2004
Analysis: Ivory Coasts hate media: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4017069.stm

17 Nov 2004
Gbagbo vows not to hinder peace: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4017995.stm
Cote D Ivoire: Sanctions imposed but political stalemate strong as ever: http://allafrica.com/stories/200411170532.html
South Africa attempts to diffuse tensions: http://allafrica.com/stories/200411170601.html
Analysis: Israeli hand seen in Ivorian clash: http://www.wpherald.com/Africa/storyview.p...17-021251-9832r
Ivory Coast leader rejects talk of war with France: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...55E2703,00.html

General information regarding the Ivory Coast:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iv.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/co...les/1043014.stm
http://allafrica.com/
Bonnie
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 18 2004, 04:29 AM)
I think you misunderstood me Bonnie. I was not saying that the Ivory Coast is the same as Iraq, but rather that the French troops are acting in the Ivory Coast in a similar fashion to the US troops in Iraq.

That is to say, they are operating there in the context of a UN mandate, as national peace keepers rather than as UN peace keepers.


Excuse me moif but I fail to see how saying this:


QUOTE(moif @ Nov 17 2004, 05:41 PM)
In many ways, France is acting much in the same way as the USA is in Iraq, only on a far smaller scale and along side the UN rather than as opposed to it.

translates into what you just said, and the fact that you made a point of saying:

"along side the UN rather than as opposed to it"

alone says to me that you don't believe the United States is acting:

"in the context of a UN mandate."

Your links show an internal conflict in Ivory Coast and that isn't The Reason we went to Iraq, it was a consideration but we went to Iraq because they were a threat to the International Community.

Bonnie
Jaime
Topic reminder:

Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?
bucket
Are we seeing ethnic cleansing taking place in the Ivory Coast or just another reverberation of the colonial period?
Oh the colonial period ended in Ivory coast..funny hard to tell what with the news of the French having to punish the angry natives for their uprising.
Ethnic cleansing? We can not even admit that Sudan is genocide and yet 9 dead Frenchmen accounts for "ethnic cleansing" ?

Does France carry a burden of responsibility for what has taken place in the Ivory Coast, and if so, how great a responsibility does France carry?

You know I haven't wanted to reply to this topic because I am just so disgusted by the international community's utter and absolute hypocrisy in regards to all this. In Sudan we have seen right before our own eyes.... all reported, all detailed, all accounted for.... mass killings..mass rapings..mass war crimes..and we can not even convince the French or those who seem to feel so honored to stand at her helm of superior morality to take a vote..to even CONSIDER sanctions on Sudan.
Yet 9 Frenchmen die and it is a travesty of such proportions that it is imperative that the UN convene for immediate steps towards sanctioning the Ivory Coast's gov. How many days did it take to get the vote? 2,3? How many have died in Dafur and for how long have we known about it?

What does it mean when 'whites' are forced to flee Africa? Is this racism?
I guess it is racism I don't know what else causes this to happen the way it does. When 9 Frenchmen die and thousands flee from their homes in fear it is a horrible racist ethnic cleansing campaign that we all must act on immediately with force. Yet millionS of Africans can not only be forced from their homes..but their country and systematically slaughtered and no one wants to do a thing until the rotting bodies start to clog up the trade routes.
What do we call this?
moif
Bucket

Let me just clarify, that I'm not asking about ethnic cleansing due to the 9 dead French soldiers, but only to the forced expulsion of the Ivory Coasts white minority.
I feel there is a growing trend in Africa to kick out white people when ever political turmoil 'allows' it. At the same time, we in Europe are being asked to integrate with thousands upon thousands of immigrants, from Africa, very few of whom make any effort to integrate with us.


QUOTE
You know I haven't wanted to reply to this topic because I am just so disgusted by the international community's utter and absolute hypocrisy in regards to all this. In Sudan we have seen right before our own eyes.... all reported, all detailed, all accounted for.... mass killings..mass rapings..mass war crimes..and we can not even convince the French or those who seem to feel so honored to stand at her helm of superior morality to take a vote..to even CONSIDER sanctions on Sudan.


I agree that there is an abysmal hypocrisy at work here, but even though that is so, how does it impact on the matter of the Ivory Coast in any practical way?

There is more to this matter than can be simply dismissed as French hypocrisy. The troubles in the Ivory Coast seem to extend back into the recent past and have a direct bearing on what happened prior to current events. There is a political and economic connection between the Ivory Coast and the EU that simply does not exist in the Sudan where the situation is a different one entirely.

I have not done any research on the Sudan, largely because I am unaware of any connection between what is happening there now and myself. Sudan appears to be a largely internal conflict between local peoples.

The Ivory Coast on the other hand does have a direct bearing on me, and there fore I do feel a responsibility to try to understand what is going on there and possibly let it influence me the next time I am voting for the EU parliment.
bucket
QUOTE
Let me just clarify, that I'm not asking about ethnic cleansing due to the 9 dead French soldiers, but only to the forced expulsion of the Ivory Coasts white minority. 
I feel there is a growing trend in Africa to kick out white people when ever political turmoil 'allows' it. At the same time, we in Europe are being asked to integrate with thousands upon thousands of immigrants, from Africa, very few of whom make any effort to integrate with us. 


Well that is not an new increasing trend in Africa....what about Zimbabwe? I have a friend who is from Zimbabwe..she is white and her father a retired farmer who happened to be forced into retirement by an angry mob of drunken men who "retired" him to the hospital..and then once he was well enough..jail.
His crime? He refused to sell his farm to the govt because that offered him about a quarter of what it was worth.



QUOTE
There is a political and economic connection between the Ivory Coast and the EU that simply does not exist in the Sudan where the situation is a different one entirely.


Well obviously they have different economic and political connections...but not all that different. Yet the difference in which the UN has approached their internal violence is startling.
But Sudan also has an ever increasing oil production. You should have a look into a little of this country's conflict. A few western nations have recently invested billions of dollars into the upgrading of Sudan's oil pipe lines and production..thus making Sudan one of Africa's leading oil exports. Not to mention putting some money in the pockets of the northern gov. Coincidentally all of those considered to be "black" and not "arab" in that country happen to live in the southern bit where all that oil happens to be..and coincidentally they are all be driven out from their land..and coincidentally the same nations who invested all this cash and helped fund the arab murder campaigns say nothing on the international stage about Sudan. So I think I am gonna have to disagree with you I feel there are massive political ties, economic connections and ultimately responsibility between Sudan and some in the EU and others (Canada)
moif
Bucket

I've never heard of any oil pipe in Sudan. If thats true, and I don't doubt you, then it is as you say and there is no cause for disagreement.

If European nations or company's are refusing to move against ethnic cleansing in the Sudan, or even as you suggest, funding it, then I am appalled. I have not heard anything of this at all.

It doesn't seem to make any difference where in the world you look, its always the same corruption, nepotism and disregard for the law that seems to prevail. Looking at the Ivory coast, I can't but help wonder why France is so deeply involved. Is it because of the large French minority living there, or is it, and they, all a part of some deeper underlying influence that I have not yet fathomed?

It mystifies me that the European media pays so little regard to our own politics, choosing instead to remain focused on the USA.

I don't like it at all.
Its like Josker Fischer (sp?) How did that man ever get to where he is today? He should be shunned for what he did in the past, not rewarded. The man is a badge of shame, and yet oddly symbolic of modern Europe where politicians are not held to account and anonymous organisations in Brussels use our tax money to cause suffering and misery across the globe.
bucket
You are right the European media is obsessed with America Iraq or no Iraq.

QUOTE
It doesn't seem to make any difference where in the world you look, its always the same corruption, nepotism and disregard for the law that seems to prevail. Looking at the Ivory coast, I can't but help wonder why France is so deeply involved. Is it because of the large French minority living there, or is it, and they, all a part of some deeper underlying influence that I have not yet fathomed?

Oh well I have this theory see....it is all about the UN and how it was birthed from post WWII's belief that countries should not own other countries anymore..so as a compromise the western nations came up with this great idea..the UN! Where we can all stand together and easily control ..err I mean help one another. The UN is nothing more..and we see examples of this time and time again in the ME and Africa..then an extension of colonialism. That is why France is still so heavily involved ..they never left.

QUOTE
ts like Josker Fischer (sp?) How did that man ever get to where he is today? He should be shunned for what he did in the past, not rewarded. The man is a badge of shame, and yet oddly symbolic of modern Europe where politicians are not held to account and anonymous organisations in Brussels use our tax money to cause suffering and misery across the globe.
It's Joschka Fischer smile.gif True. Fischer is such a blight on the German govt. but that is how Germany is currently being governed by this extreme view that the establishment (US) is evil, monstrous and must be stopped at all costs...why else would you have this man as your foreign minister!?

PS..
Did you hear how Joschka Fischer was treated at Araft's funeral? Too funny....and all the whinging from the German media about it too. Pathetic. How do you like your new friends' hospitality Mr. Fischer?
Horyok
QUOTE
Cyan

QUOTE(Haryok)
A quick glance at the situation would make you think this is racism in action.


Haryok, if you don't mind, I would like to get your take on the situation between the rebels and the government. The information that I have come across portrays it as a situation where the people in the north have contributed a significant amount of labor towards building the country up, but they are being left out of the Democratic process because of the xenophobic policies of the current government or "pure Ivoirian pride."


Cyan, when I meant racism in action, I meant racism from Ivorians against white people (mostly Europeans).

On the other hand, I know there are some ongoing problems between the Northern and Southern Ivorian communities and I agree that it is a form of racism.
Bonnie
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 19 2004, 08:55 AM)
I can't but help wonder why France is so deeply involved.


This may have something to do with it:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1813893.stm

Sadly, oil speaks for a lot of governments. sad.gif

Bonnie
bucket
I read this little bit of news yesterday..or perhaps the day before. I have been following this story now to see what comes of it...It is not being reported on here in the US and I was curious if it was being chatted about elsewhere or not ?

French media: Israelis aided Ivory Coast military in attacks

edited to add second link...

Reports say Israelis assisted Ivory Coast army
Horyok
QUOTE
QUOTE(moif @ Nov 19 2004, 08:55 AM)
I can't but help wonder why France is so deeply involved.


This may have something to do with it:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1813893.stm

Sadly, oil speaks for a lot of governments. 

Bonnie


Indeed, Bonnie, indeed. I'm quite certain that protecting our economic interests is the reason for our continuous military presence. These interests can be impersonated by French workers and/or material goods we buy from Ivory Coast.

I don't see this as "sad" like you do. We've had oil contracts for years with successing Ivory Coast governments, so where is the problem now?

QUOTE(bucket @ Nov 20 2004, 05:59 AM)
I read this little bit of news yesterday..or perhaps the day before.  I have been following this story now to see what comes of it...It is not being reported on here in the US and I was curious if it was being chatted about elsewhere or not  ?

French media: Israelis aided Ivory Coast military in attacks

edited to add second link...

Reports say Israelis assisted Ivory Coast army
*



Bucket,

I reported the same information you have in my first answer, a few days ago. No one has discussed it until now. But is there really a matter to discuss here? I don't believe that the Israel government was promoting the sale of weapons ; as a matter of fact, it's a private company that did it!

Now at least, with the UN resolution that's been passed, no weapons can be sold anymore to either group in Ivory Coast, whether they're loyalists or rebels.
Bonnie
QUOTE(Horyok @ Nov 20 2004, 06:28 AM)
We've had oil contracts for years with successing Ivory Coast governments, so where is the problem now?


Ivorians may have seen it as too much use of force when the French were allowed to send military into the country.

Bonnie
Horyok
Yes, but which Ivorians : President Bagbo and its entourage or the average Joe struggling for a job in the streets of Abijan? What I'm aiming at is to show you that the current conflict has been artificially increased because the president wanted it to be so.

French people have been in IC since its independance. Most of them had happy lives and companies which employed Ivorians. Now that half of them are gone (7.200 so far), think about the thousands of Ivorians who have lost their jobs because their companies no longer exist... I bet the president of IC didn't mind about his own people much after all. mellow.gif
moif
Bonnie

Please refrain from one liners. It is a violation of forum policy and I'd rather not see this thread closed down.

QUOTE(Bonnie)
Ivorians may have seen it as too much use of force when the French were allowed to send military into the country.
The Ivorians agreed to allow the French into the country as a part of reconciliation deal. They can blame no one but themselves and their own presidents tendencies towards ethnic conflict for what has taken place. Looking back over the conflict, there is little evidence that, until the Ivorian airforce (which is largely a mercenary force) deliberatly targetted the French on the 6th of this month, the France used its military force outside of the agreed reconciliation deal.

Regardless of what Chirac's motives are, the French/ European minority in the Ivory Coast is not to blame for what has happened.


Horyok

QUOTE(Horyok)
Yes, but which Ivorians : President Bagbo and its entourage or the average Joe struggling for a job in the streets of Abijan? What I'm aiming at is to show you that the current conflict has been artificially increased because the president wanted it to be so.
Indeed. And I think its is quite clear that if the French troops were not in place, then we would have seen ethnic warfare between the north and south of the Ivory Coast. I don't know what Gbagbo's agenda is, but its clear that he's deliberately used public anger, a heavily biased media as well as direct military action to tried to force the French out of the way.


QUOTE(Horyok)
French people have been in IC since its independance. Most of them had happy lives and companies which employed Ivorians. Now that half of them are gone (7.200 so far), think about the thousands of Ivorians who have lost their jobs because their companies no longer exist... I bet the president of IC didn't mind about his own people much after all.
Exactly. The real losers here are going to be the people of the Ivory Coast, regardless of their ethnic origins.
Bonnie
QUOTE(Horyok @ Nov 20 2004, 12:41 PM)
Yes, but which Ivorians : President Bagbo and its entourage or the average Joe struggling for a job in the streets of Abijan? What I'm aiming at is to show you that the current conflict has been artificially increased because the president wanted it to be so.


I was just reading about General Guei and Bagbo :

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/...s.cfm?docid+773

This was bound to happen sooner or later:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1242980.htm

It's interesting that they are not accusing the UN troops.

Bonnie
Bonnie
QUOTE(Bonnie @ Nov 20 2004, 07:15 PM)
I was just reading about General Guei and Bagbo :

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/...s.cfm?docid+773


I apologize for the wrong link, this is the correct one:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/...x.cfm?docid=773

Bonnie thumbsup.gif
carlitoswhey
Looks like the French are having some problems. There were also accusations of french snipers posted in the hotel blowing off the heads of protesters. A nasty business indeed.
I suppose that I'm being optimistic when I hope that the UN Security Council would evenhandedly condemn these types of actions by the French in a non-sanctioned military action against a sovereign nation...
original story (in French)

translation in English / summary

From the English summary - Agence France Presse:
QUOTE
"French troops fired directly into the crowd. They opened fire on the orders of their chief Colonel D'Estremon. Without warning."
    Guiai Bi Poin he said he was at the French colonel's side in the hotel lobby throughout the night.    Ivorian authorities said a total of 57 civilians were killed and more than 2,200 injured between November 6 and 10, including an unconfirmed number by French troops -- but there is no specific toll for the Hotel Ivoire protest.    Followers of President Laurent Gbagbo accused French soldiers, including snipers hidden in the hotel, of firing on "Young Patriot" loyalists.
    Until now, Alliot-Marie has insisted the victims were killed in clashes between Young Patriots and Ivorian police. The French military says only that warning shot were fired in the air.
    But Alliot-Marie told RTL radio Sunday, without specifically referring to the Hotel Ivoire incident, that some casualties may have been caused by French troops during the demonstrations.
<snip>
"Not one of my men fired a shot," he said. "There were no shots from the crowd. None of the demonstrators was armed -- not even with sticks, or knives or rocks."
    He said that when he reported to the French commander on the day of the riot, he was told: "Colonel, my barbed wire has been crossed, and the crowd is getting excited. If they do not let us leave within 20 minutes, I am going to shoot."
    "Suddenly," said Guiai Bi Poin, "there was a movement on our left and my gendarmes were pushed violently by the crowd. They fell back a meter or two. D'Estremon then said to me, 'Colonel, the red line has been crossed. I am going to open fire. FIRE!'"
    The officer said the French troops began shooting. "It was not a haphazard fusillade. It was carried out on the orders of their chief. And there was no warning."    Guiai Bi Poin said he yelled at the French officer to fire in the air, to aim higher, "He did this but some of his men did not obey and some continued to fire on the crowd. I saw lots of people falling, but I do not know how many victims there were."
moif
The incident was apparently filmed and posted on the internet as evidence of a French massacre of civilians by the followers of Laurent Gbagbo.

The Mpeg can be found here:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?en...armed_Civilians

It is very graphic, and really proves nothing since there is no actual footage of who is firing at whom. It is also a very long download.

editted to add:

Here is an article that also reports on recent casualties in the Ivory Coast.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/041130152709.fsq5z7vp.html
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