Full Version: Racial Hypocrisy in American Business
There was a story off of CNN.com that caught my eye earlier this evening....
Amercrombie settles race suit for $40 Million...
Now when I read this, something clicked in my head. The thought that Abercrombie was being sued, in part, because they were believed to have cultivated "a virtually all white image in its catalogues and elsewhere", and yet clothiers like FUBU are left untouched reeked of the worst kind of racial double-standard I've ever heard of.
Curious as to whether FUBU (which stands for "For Us, By Us") may show models that are other than African-American, I took a trip to their website. (FUBU.com)
Nowhere on that site...nowhere did I see one model that was other than African-American. Now, I've had a hard time finding details on their hiring practices, but I will be willing to step out on a limb and guess that they don't hire all that many white people, let alone Hispanics, Asians, or Natives to work at FUBU.
And yet, not a peep from anyone.
Conservative (African-American) talk show host Larry Elder had this to say on the issue in general....
(from this cbsnews.com arcticle)
“God forbid Dan Rather should decide to leave CBS and apply for an opening as an anchor for BET. He's experienced. He's telegenic. He's knowledgeable. But they say, ‘Mr. Rather, look on the door. It says Black Entertainment Television.’ Will he get a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Highly unlikely. There is a no-fly zone over certain people and certain industries that discriminate all the time.”
Like ethnic restaurants, where the help is overwhelmingly of one race, or the modeling agencies where every model is undeniably beautiful, or even black-owned clothing companies like FUBU -- which stands for “For Us By Us.” Elder says that FUBU probably employs very few white people.
That’s not racism, says Elder, that’s capitalism: “This is about a business deciding pursuant to its own best interests, rightly or wrongly, that a particular kind of salesperson is more likely to generate more dollars … It’s all about the bottom line.”
Elder says too often cases like these end up in court.
“A&F ought to have the right to set their own policies for good or for ill. Look, there's a restaurant called Hooters,” says Elder. “Hooters requires you to have certain kinds of physical accoutrements. Is that -- will that do? And I think people understand that. Should they have a right to hire waitresses because they want to attract a certain kind of clientele who want to ogle at the waitresses? I think so.”
So what makes FUBU so special that they can be overlooked when it comes to these issues?
I don't know, I haven't gotten that memo, but I think that Elder made a good point. If you want to attract a certain clientel, you appeal to that clientel with advertising geared towards them.... it common business sense people. But apparently it's ethically wrong if you're white.
So the questions to debate are:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Amercrombie settles race suit for $40 Million...
QUOTE
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Abercrombie & Fitch Co. has agreed to pay $40 million to black, Hispanic and Asian employees and job applicants to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit that accused the clothing retailer of promoting whites at the expense of minorities, lawyers said Tuesday....
...The lawsuit was filed last June in San Francisco by Hispanic and Asian groups charging that Abercrombie & Fitch, known for its "classic casual American" clothing styles, hires a disproportionately white sales force, puts minorities in less-visible jobs and cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere. A second, similar lawsuit was filed against the company last November in New Jersey.
...The lawsuit was filed last June in San Francisco by Hispanic and Asian groups charging that Abercrombie & Fitch, known for its "classic casual American" clothing styles, hires a disproportionately white sales force, puts minorities in less-visible jobs and cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere. A second, similar lawsuit was filed against the company last November in New Jersey.
Now when I read this, something clicked in my head. The thought that Abercrombie was being sued, in part, because they were believed to have cultivated "a virtually all white image in its catalogues and elsewhere", and yet clothiers like FUBU are left untouched reeked of the worst kind of racial double-standard I've ever heard of.
Curious as to whether FUBU (which stands for "For Us, By Us") may show models that are other than African-American, I took a trip to their website. (FUBU.com)
Nowhere on that site...nowhere did I see one model that was other than African-American. Now, I've had a hard time finding details on their hiring practices, but I will be willing to step out on a limb and guess that they don't hire all that many white people, let alone Hispanics, Asians, or Natives to work at FUBU.
And yet, not a peep from anyone.
Conservative (African-American) talk show host Larry Elder had this to say on the issue in general....
(from this cbsnews.com arcticle)
QUOTE
“God forbid Dan Rather should decide to leave CBS and apply for an opening as an anchor for BET. He's experienced. He's telegenic. He's knowledgeable. But they say, ‘Mr. Rather, look on the door. It says Black Entertainment Television.’ Will he get a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Highly unlikely. There is a no-fly zone over certain people and certain industries that discriminate all the time.”
Like ethnic restaurants, where the help is overwhelmingly of one race, or the modeling agencies where every model is undeniably beautiful, or even black-owned clothing companies like FUBU -- which stands for “For Us By Us.” Elder says that FUBU probably employs very few white people.
That’s not racism, says Elder, that’s capitalism: “This is about a business deciding pursuant to its own best interests, rightly or wrongly, that a particular kind of salesperson is more likely to generate more dollars … It’s all about the bottom line.”
Elder says too often cases like these end up in court.
“A&F ought to have the right to set their own policies for good or for ill. Look, there's a restaurant called Hooters,” says Elder. “Hooters requires you to have certain kinds of physical accoutrements. Is that -- will that do? And I think people understand that. Should they have a right to hire waitresses because they want to attract a certain kind of clientele who want to ogle at the waitresses? I think so.”
So what makes FUBU so special that they can be overlooked when it comes to these issues?
I don't know, I haven't gotten that memo, but I think that Elder made a good point. If you want to attract a certain clientel, you appeal to that clientel with advertising geared towards them.... it common business sense people. But apparently it's ethically wrong if you're white.
So the questions to debate are:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
QUOTE(Titus @ Nov 16 2004, 10:59 PM)
There was a story off of CNN.com that caught my eye earlier this evening....
Amercrombie settles race suit for $40 Million...
Now when I read this, something clicked in my head. The thought that Abercrombie was being sued, in part, because they were believed to have cultivated "a virtually all white image in its catalogues and elsewhere", and yet clothiers like FUBU are left untouched reeked of the worst kind of racial double-standard I've ever heard of.
Curious as to whether FUBU (which stands for "For Us, By Us") may show models that are other than African-American, I took a trip to their website. (FUBU.com)
Nowhere on that site...nowhere did I see one model that was other than African-American. Now, I've had a hard time finding details on their hiring practices, but I will be willing to step out on a limb and guess that they don't hire all that many white people, let alone Hispanics, Asians, or Natives to work at FUBU.
And yet, not a peep from anyone.
Conservative (African-American) talk show host Larry Elder had this to say on the issue in general....
(from this cbsnews.com arcticle)
“God forbid Dan Rather should decide to leave CBS and apply for an opening as an anchor for BET. He's experienced. He's telegenic. He's knowledgeable. But they say, ‘Mr. Rather, look on the door. It says Black Entertainment Television.’ Will he get a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Highly unlikely. There is a no-fly zone over certain people and certain industries that discriminate all the time.”
Like ethnic restaurants, where the help is overwhelmingly of one race, or the modeling agencies where every model is undeniably beautiful, or even black-owned clothing companies like FUBU -- which stands for “For Us By Us.” Elder says that FUBU probably employs very few white people.
That’s not racism, says Elder, that’s capitalism: “This is about a business deciding pursuant to its own best interests, rightly or wrongly, that a particular kind of salesperson is more likely to generate more dollars … It’s all about the bottom line.”
Elder says too often cases like these end up in court.
“A&F ought to have the right to set their own policies for good or for ill. Look, there's a restaurant called Hooters,” says Elder. “Hooters requires you to have certain kinds of physical accoutrements. Is that -- will that do? And I think people understand that. Should they have a right to hire waitresses because they want to attract a certain kind of clientele who want to ogle at the waitresses? I think so.”
So what makes FUBU so special that they can be overlooked when it comes to these issues?
I don't know, I haven't gotten that memo, but I think that Elder made a good point. If you want to attract a certain clientel, you appeal to that clientel with advertising geared towards them.... it common business sense people. But apparently it's ethically wrong if you're white.
So the questions to debate are:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Amercrombie settles race suit for $40 Million...
QUOTE
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Abercrombie & Fitch Co. has agreed to pay $40 million to black, Hispanic and Asian employees and job applicants to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit that accused the clothing retailer of promoting whites at the expense of minorities, lawyers said Tuesday....
...The lawsuit was filed last June in San Francisco by Hispanic and Asian groups charging that Abercrombie & Fitch, known for its "classic casual American" clothing styles, hires a disproportionately white sales force, puts minorities in less-visible jobs and cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere. A second, similar lawsuit was filed against the company last November in New Jersey.
...The lawsuit was filed last June in San Francisco by Hispanic and Asian groups charging that Abercrombie & Fitch, known for its "classic casual American" clothing styles, hires a disproportionately white sales force, puts minorities in less-visible jobs and cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere. A second, similar lawsuit was filed against the company last November in New Jersey.
Now when I read this, something clicked in my head. The thought that Abercrombie was being sued, in part, because they were believed to have cultivated "a virtually all white image in its catalogues and elsewhere", and yet clothiers like FUBU are left untouched reeked of the worst kind of racial double-standard I've ever heard of.
Curious as to whether FUBU (which stands for "For Us, By Us") may show models that are other than African-American, I took a trip to their website. (FUBU.com)
Nowhere on that site...nowhere did I see one model that was other than African-American. Now, I've had a hard time finding details on their hiring practices, but I will be willing to step out on a limb and guess that they don't hire all that many white people, let alone Hispanics, Asians, or Natives to work at FUBU.
And yet, not a peep from anyone.
Conservative (African-American) talk show host Larry Elder had this to say on the issue in general....
(from this cbsnews.com arcticle)
QUOTE
“God forbid Dan Rather should decide to leave CBS and apply for an opening as an anchor for BET. He's experienced. He's telegenic. He's knowledgeable. But they say, ‘Mr. Rather, look on the door. It says Black Entertainment Television.’ Will he get a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Highly unlikely. There is a no-fly zone over certain people and certain industries that discriminate all the time.”
Like ethnic restaurants, where the help is overwhelmingly of one race, or the modeling agencies where every model is undeniably beautiful, or even black-owned clothing companies like FUBU -- which stands for “For Us By Us.” Elder says that FUBU probably employs very few white people.
That’s not racism, says Elder, that’s capitalism: “This is about a business deciding pursuant to its own best interests, rightly or wrongly, that a particular kind of salesperson is more likely to generate more dollars … It’s all about the bottom line.”
Elder says too often cases like these end up in court.
“A&F ought to have the right to set their own policies for good or for ill. Look, there's a restaurant called Hooters,” says Elder. “Hooters requires you to have certain kinds of physical accoutrements. Is that -- will that do? And I think people understand that. Should they have a right to hire waitresses because they want to attract a certain kind of clientele who want to ogle at the waitresses? I think so.”
So what makes FUBU so special that they can be overlooked when it comes to these issues?
I don't know, I haven't gotten that memo, but I think that Elder made a good point. If you want to attract a certain clientel, you appeal to that clientel with advertising geared towards them.... it common business sense people. But apparently it's ethically wrong if you're white.
So the questions to debate are:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Good topic. It really is an interesting discussion. What striked me was the charge that A&F 'Cultivated and all-white image". So are they saying that companies MUST give off an image that is sensitive to every culture? Anyone remember the 9/11 Statue of the 3 fire fighters raising the flag...where there was a white, black and hispanic man in place of the three white? It just tells you what is happening to our culture.
I mean, i havent seen a viable complaint that they were discriminated against in any way. They were given jobs for the same pay...i don't see that they were treated unfairly. How can A&C promote whites at the "expense" of minorities? Of course, i have to learn a lot more about the case but this truly seems like there is a problem and it is the double-standard.
For instance, there are college scholarships for minority students...african american, hispanic, whatever. But do you think that someone would allow there to be a "whites only" scholarship? I dont think so.
I believe the lawsuit is frivolous and sets a bad precedent. Do i think a white person should sue FUBU now? No! I think that these companies should be able to give off any type of image they want as long as they are not intentionally discriminating. A&C is catering to their base...which is most likely more caucasion people while FUBU would obviously cater to their base...which is more likely african american. Its hypocrisy at its finest and yet another reason why we must reform our civil system.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Yes and I mainly lay the blame on the Democrats doorstep for this. Why recognize color in laws at all? Does that not point to discrimination itself? Discrimination should be settled on a case to case basis not a blanket law that gives "bonus points" for the color of your skin. If I grade one higher point than an American who's skin color may just happen to be black, I lost to that American because of their color alone. If I paint myself black can I get bonus points to? It's insanity and discriminate's against's white males predominately.
If Democrat's are "champions" of civil rights, where are mine? Am I not equal to a minorty?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Most certianly. It's a blanket law and a double-standard. Did they review each case? In each case was a minority better qualified for the job? Why did the white person get the job? Was it because the "boss" was a racist, or was it because they where better qualified for the job?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
So called "reverse racism" is promident in this country currently. I acknowledge that racism was rampant in the past against minorities, and perhaps the original law was justified... however there is a point in which it is flat out racist against the white majority, especially during this time period.
Yes and I mainly lay the blame on the Democrats doorstep for this. Why recognize color in laws at all? Does that not point to discrimination itself? Discrimination should be settled on a case to case basis not a blanket law that gives "bonus points" for the color of your skin. If I grade one higher point than an American who's skin color may just happen to be black, I lost to that American because of their color alone. If I paint myself black can I get bonus points to? It's insanity and discriminate's against's white males predominately.
If Democrat's are "champions" of civil rights, where are mine? Am I not equal to a minorty?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Most certianly. It's a blanket law and a double-standard. Did they review each case? In each case was a minority better qualified for the job? Why did the white person get the job? Was it because the "boss" was a racist, or was it because they where better qualified for the job?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
So called "reverse racism" is promident in this country currently. I acknowledge that racism was rampant in the past against minorities, and perhaps the original law was justified... however there is a point in which it is flat out racist against the white majority, especially during this time period.
Well, we've got some specific people with specific allegations:
(from the article)
and:
Two Asian-Americans. Apparently, this type of practice was widespread.
If this type of discrimination happens in FUBU stores, they should be sued too.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Definitely. Minorities and women are paid less than white men in the same jobs. People with black sounding names get hired less often. Blacks pay higher prices for cars. A total double standard.
Of course, I am deliberately answering the question differently. The reason? You picked one part of the allegations, then turned it around on a supposition that similar practices exist at FUBU, when we have no evidence or proof of such a thing. Elder makes a fair rhetorical point, but without any evidence of wrongdoing at FUBU or BET, that's all it is. If similar things happen at FUBU, then that will be wrong, too.
Again, you are taking one peice of this and blowing it out of proportion. Take a closer look at the specific allegations; that's the meat. And those allegations, if true, indicate a problem. This isn't about making every business into Benetton, it's about people not retaining their jobs because there's already enough Filipinos. Or getting fired because they don't look like the poster.
What about the United Daughters of the Confederacy scholarship?
The fact is that most scholarships that cater to specific groups are private scholarships. There are scholarships for left handed people, people who have caddied for at least three years at a Massachusetts golf club, and so on. Groups or people can privately endow any kind of scholarship they want. It's unfair to link this to either this court case (a tenuous link at best), or to a public policy of affirmative action. These scholarships are mostly thrown into the argument just to rhetorically bolster the 'us poor whites' argument.
Which is, of course, bogus. Whites are still the recipients of vast preference. Not to mention that the history of the U.S., particularly until the Civil Rights movement, is pretty much the history of affirmative action for whites.
QUOTE
Ocampo worked four years ago as a sales rep at an Abercrombie store during his Christmas break from Stanford University. He says he assumed his job would still be available when he returned home that summer, but when he turned up for work he found out he lost his job.
"’We're sorry. We can't rehire you because we already have too many Filipinos working at this store,’" recalls Ocampo. “Too many Filipinos. That was her exact words … I was speechless. I didn't really know what to say. I've never seen racism that explicit prior to that.”
"’We're sorry. We can't rehire you because we already have too many Filipinos working at this store,’" recalls Ocampo. “Too many Filipinos. That was her exact words … I was speechless. I didn't really know what to say. I've never seen racism that explicit prior to that.”
(from the article)
and:
QUOTE
Lu says she was fired after corporate officials visited the store, and according to her, didn’t like what they saw: “A corporate official had pointed to an Abercrombie poster and told our management at our store, ‘You need to have more staff that looks like this.’ And it was a white Caucasian male on that poster.”
She says shortly thereafter that several Asian-American salespeople were fired and replaced with white males.
She says shortly thereafter that several Asian-American salespeople were fired and replaced with white males.
Two Asian-Americans. Apparently, this type of practice was widespread.
If this type of discrimination happens in FUBU stores, they should be sued too.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Definitely. Minorities and women are paid less than white men in the same jobs. People with black sounding names get hired less often. Blacks pay higher prices for cars. A total double standard.
Of course, I am deliberately answering the question differently. The reason? You picked one part of the allegations, then turned it around on a supposition that similar practices exist at FUBU, when we have no evidence or proof of such a thing. Elder makes a fair rhetorical point, but without any evidence of wrongdoing at FUBU or BET, that's all it is. If similar things happen at FUBU, then that will be wrong, too.
QUOTE(lederuvdapac)
Good topic. It really is an interesting discussion. What striked me was the charge that A&F 'Cultivated and all-white image". So are they saying that companies MUST give off an image that is sensitive to every culture? Anyone remember the 9/11 Statue of the 3 fire fighters raising the flag...where there was a white, black and hispanic man in place of the three white? It just tells you what is happening to our culture.
Again, you are taking one peice of this and blowing it out of proportion. Take a closer look at the specific allegations; that's the meat. And those allegations, if true, indicate a problem. This isn't about making every business into Benetton, it's about people not retaining their jobs because there's already enough Filipinos. Or getting fired because they don't look like the poster.
QUOTE
For instance, there are college scholarships for minority students...african american, hispanic, whatever. But do you think that someone would allow there to be a "whites only" scholarship? I dont think so.
What about the United Daughters of the Confederacy scholarship?
The fact is that most scholarships that cater to specific groups are private scholarships. There are scholarships for left handed people, people who have caddied for at least three years at a Massachusetts golf club, and so on. Groups or people can privately endow any kind of scholarship they want. It's unfair to link this to either this court case (a tenuous link at best), or to a public policy of affirmative action. These scholarships are mostly thrown into the argument just to rhetorically bolster the 'us poor whites' argument.
Which is, of course, bogus. Whites are still the recipients of vast preference. Not to mention that the history of the U.S., particularly until the Civil Rights movement, is pretty much the history of affirmative action for whites.
quarkhead
The burden of proof lay on the accuser. Allegation's and proof are two different animals.
I used to work at BET on a temporary basis, but when I came back they said they allready had enough white people working there.
So are my allegation's enough proof for you?
Of course I wanted my job back and was mad at the company for not giving it to me.
The burden of proof lay on the accuser. Allegation's and proof are two different animals.
I used to work at BET on a temporary basis, but when I came back they said they allready had enough white people working there.
So are my allegation's enough proof for you?
Of course I wanted my job back and was mad at the company for not giving it to me.
No use quoting, all of you are arguing along the same lines.
Reverse racism is rampant in this country. The affirmative action whining, conviently ignoring the fact that the majority of benefits of affirmative action go to white women. White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen. I'm sorry, I have a really hard time believing you guys are really that oppressed. I think that there are maybe a handful at best of legitimate reverse racism cases in this country, and either way they are completely dwarfed by the magnitude of non-reverse racism in this country. The media hypes it up to scare white men, oh the minorities are taking away their jobs and their money and it's so unfair to be born a white man in today's society. Honestly, please get over it and stop wanting to play a victim. Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.
Is reverse racism wrong? Of course, when it actually happens. But I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide a lot more proof than FUBU and black scholarships to convince me that there's a widespread movement against white males, that the majority of Americans see white men as inferior and deem it acceptable to treat them as such.
If A&F is discriminating against its employees because of race, then this is wrong. Period. No matter what FUBU does, or BET, or any of the multitude of black-themed things that whites love to point out to justify their own racism, it does not excuse A&F. Bringing FUBU and the like into the mix is a very thin attempt to do exactly that.
Ooh, they have special scholarships! That's racism! They have BET! That's racism! They have the Black America Beauty Pageant! RACISM! FUBU! Oh how oppressed us poor white males are. Something must be done. The housing discrimination, the racial profiling by cops, honestly I don't know how you guys manage with all that reverse racism. I sure know I couldn't do it.
I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
You want to know why it seems like there's so many cases of reverse racism in this country? It's because when a white male is alleged to have been racially discriminated against, it's news. It's news because it's out of the ordinary and uncommon. Why don't we hear as often of racism against minorities? Because it's practically the status quo. "Blacks frequent target for random police stops" is not as newsworthy as "white male rejected for college acceptance for lesser-qualified minority." A 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year news channel that reported nothing but occurrances of racism against minorities still wouldn't be enough to cover them all. And besides, we all know that happens. That's not important enough to be news.
But you don't see me or Nighttimer starting a thread every time someone idolizes Ronald Reagan to examine his racist policies, or about Dubya's favorite college, Bob Jones University.
I was recently profiled for the second time by the wonderful, upstanding Men In Blue of Westerville, Ohio. Extremely upset, I went to my college's director of Ethnic Diversity, ranted at her for a while, and then asked her what the hell I could do about it. The long and short of her answer was absolutely nothing. All I can do is learn to accept and expect it, and to not let it interfere with me taking care of my business. I will fight it when I can, but ultimately she's right. I have to accept racism because there's next to little I can do to change the attitudes of an entire police department.
So here's a little of advice to you guys: get over it and accept it. I don't see you guys getting outraged over racism when it doesn't happen to you or one of your fellow white males, so I feel little to no concern when it (rarely) happens to one of you. You feel FUBU is unfair? Tough cookies. Don't like BET? Oh well. Angered (much to my severe disgust) over scholarships and college funds for underpriveleged minorities? That's just too bad. Racism exists in this country, against the minorities and occasionally against the majority, but until I see white males having brain aneurysms about racial profiling or the alarming disparity of percentage of blacks on death row to their percentage of the population, I won't really believe you nor care all that much when you talk about the pressing need to address rampant reverse discrimination.
Reverse racism is rampant in this country. The affirmative action whining, conviently ignoring the fact that the majority of benefits of affirmative action go to white women. White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen. I'm sorry, I have a really hard time believing you guys are really that oppressed. I think that there are maybe a handful at best of legitimate reverse racism cases in this country, and either way they are completely dwarfed by the magnitude of non-reverse racism in this country. The media hypes it up to scare white men, oh the minorities are taking away their jobs and their money and it's so unfair to be born a white man in today's society. Honestly, please get over it and stop wanting to play a victim. Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.
Is reverse racism wrong? Of course, when it actually happens. But I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide a lot more proof than FUBU and black scholarships to convince me that there's a widespread movement against white males, that the majority of Americans see white men as inferior and deem it acceptable to treat them as such.
If A&F is discriminating against its employees because of race, then this is wrong. Period. No matter what FUBU does, or BET, or any of the multitude of black-themed things that whites love to point out to justify their own racism, it does not excuse A&F. Bringing FUBU and the like into the mix is a very thin attempt to do exactly that.
Ooh, they have special scholarships! That's racism! They have BET! That's racism! They have the Black America Beauty Pageant! RACISM! FUBU! Oh how oppressed us poor white males are. Something must be done. The housing discrimination, the racial profiling by cops, honestly I don't know how you guys manage with all that reverse racism. I sure know I couldn't do it.
I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
You want to know why it seems like there's so many cases of reverse racism in this country? It's because when a white male is alleged to have been racially discriminated against, it's news. It's news because it's out of the ordinary and uncommon. Why don't we hear as often of racism against minorities? Because it's practically the status quo. "Blacks frequent target for random police stops" is not as newsworthy as "white male rejected for college acceptance for lesser-qualified minority." A 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year news channel that reported nothing but occurrances of racism against minorities still wouldn't be enough to cover them all. And besides, we all know that happens. That's not important enough to be news.
But you don't see me or Nighttimer starting a thread every time someone idolizes Ronald Reagan to examine his racist policies, or about Dubya's favorite college, Bob Jones University. I was recently profiled for the second time by the wonderful, upstanding Men In Blue of Westerville, Ohio. Extremely upset, I went to my college's director of Ethnic Diversity, ranted at her for a while, and then asked her what the hell I could do about it. The long and short of her answer was absolutely nothing. All I can do is learn to accept and expect it, and to not let it interfere with me taking care of my business. I will fight it when I can, but ultimately she's right. I have to accept racism because there's next to little I can do to change the attitudes of an entire police department.
So here's a little of advice to you guys: get over it and accept it. I don't see you guys getting outraged over racism when it doesn't happen to you or one of your fellow white males, so I feel little to no concern when it (rarely) happens to one of you. You feel FUBU is unfair? Tough cookies. Don't like BET? Oh well. Angered (much to my severe disgust) over scholarships and college funds for underpriveleged minorities? That's just too bad. Racism exists in this country, against the minorities and occasionally against the majority, but until I see white males having brain aneurysms about racial profiling or the alarming disparity of percentage of blacks on death row to their percentage of the population, I won't really believe you nor care all that much when you talk about the pressing need to address rampant reverse discrimination.
QUOTE
The affirmative action whining, conviently ignoring the fact that the majority of benefits of affirmative action go to white women.
Could you provide evidence that "affirmative action" benifit's white women prodominatly?
QUOTE
White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen.
Statisically speaking, white people are also the majority of the United State's so does that mean that white people are racist or is it that white people are dumber than the minorities therefore the minorities are the one's that should hold most of the power?
The United State's is a Republic. When you deduce the amount of whites vs. black's then the people who hold the power are actually quite balanced. You may see that more white people are in the office of who holds the power, but percentage wise it only make's sense.
QUOTE
Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.
Provide evidence that white's where less qualified, and what percentage? Again, white's are the majority so you should expect more accepted into any school simple because white's outnumber the minorities.
What's the percentage of people in college? Who in those colleges where more qualified than the other? Was it because of racism that the white's make up 75% of the college of was it because white's make up 75% of the population in that area?
QUOTE
Is reverse racism wrong? Of course, when it actually happens. But I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide a lot more proof than FUBU and black scholarships to convince me that there's a widespread movement against white males, that the majority of Americans see white men as inferior and deem it acceptable to treat them as such.
I dont believe that the "majority" of Americans see white men as inferior, but the law's certianly give criteria to color of skin over qualification.
QUOTE
I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
I acknowledge that minorities have, in the past, endured much pain and suffering due to rampant racism. I do not believe that rampant racism against whites, or blacks, exist today, let me make that clear.
Furthermore you are talking to one white male who has experience real racism.
QUOTE
It's because when a white male is alleged to have been racially discriminated against, it's news.
No, because it's the law. I shouldnt have worded that "reverse racism" is rampant, but rather "it is the law". The law state's that businesses must hit a certian criteria of the minority. But BET doesnt have to worry about hitting a certian percentage of white's because we are not the minority even though we make up majority of the population, in their industry, we make up a very small minority. So where is the equal protection? If white's make up 60% of the general population shouldnt that reflect on BET that we also make up 60% of their employee's? Or is it ok to higher someone because you believe the color of their skin better fits your business?
So should there be a law that 60% of the business should be made up of whites, or is it ok that there is a law that 13% blacks and 15% hispanics should make up a business but there doesnt even need to be 1% of whites?
QUOTE
Because it's practically the status quo. "Blacks frequent target for random police stops" is not as newsworthy as "white male rejected for college acceptance for lesser-qualified minority." A 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year news channel that reported nothing but occurrances of racism against minorities still wouldn't be enough to cover them all.
Black male's also make up 40% of the prison population. Does that mean they are discriminated against or they just happen to commit the most crimes?
Im not racist - not at all. But a human should not be recognized by the color of their skin when making an arrest or higher them to a job.
And if their is "rampant" arresting of blacks that did not commit a crime please provide evidence of recent data showing so.
Black's made up 15% of the prison population 50 years ago, now they make up 40%. Do you believe racism is more rampant now than it was in the 50's? Or are black's commiting more crimes percentage wise?
Please be realistic. Im not racist at all -- but you have to be realistic in what the stat's say. If you have evidence that there is a huge conspiracy against blacks within the police departments, please provide it.
QUOTE
So here's a little of advice to you guys: get over it and accept it. I don't see you guys getting outraged over racism when it doesn't happen to you or one of your fellow white males, so I feel little to no concern when it (rarely) happens to one of you.
Accept that minorities are favored in laws just because they are minorities? I dont think so, the best human should get the job/college slot based on their creditials not their color. They should wipe out the little box of race alltogether.
Do you not agree that the law should be blind to race/gender?
Again you are talking to "one of those few whites" that experienced real racism.
I hold no ill toward any color/race/sex/religion, we are all human and the law's should reflect that.
In short laws should not recognize skin color/religion period. That's all I ask. May the best person get the job and may the best person get the college slot.
QUOTE(Vampiel @ Nov 16 2004, 11:54 PM)
quarkhead
The burden of proof lay on the accuser. Allegation's and proof are two different animals.
I used to work at BET on a temporary basis, but when I came back they said they allready had enough white people working there.
So are my allegation's enough proof for you?
Of course I wanted my job back and was mad at the company for not giving it to me.
The burden of proof lay on the accuser. Allegation's and proof are two different animals.
I used to work at BET on a temporary basis, but when I came back they said they allready had enough white people working there.
So are my allegation's enough proof for you?
Of course I wanted my job back and was mad at the company for not giving it to me.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said. I know the difference between allegations and proof. I clearly said that, in the case of A&F, if the allegations (of such practices being widespread) are true, then it indicates a problem.
It's really stupidity on the part of the company. If on the one hand, they have a tendency to hire white, good-looking salespeople, no big deal. It's marketing, it's life, get over it. However, if you have store managers telling people specifically the types of things that were allegedly said, it is a problem. If you were told specifically that they already have enough white people at BET, that was wrong, and if widespread, should be addressed.
Using the courts to address such things is certainly better than some massive regulatory agency policing businesses.
QUOTE
Could you provide evidence that "affirmative action" benifit's white women prodominatly?
There are other places to debate affirmative action. These questions have nothing to do with affirmative action. They have to do with a lawsuit alleging racist hiring practices.
Hello! 
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
QUOTE(giftzahn @ Nov 17 2004, 06:12 AM)
Hello!
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
That doesnt provide evidence of racism. It only state's what level of degree the person has. What is most important for higher pay in most jobs is experience and reference's. You begin at the lower level's and make your way to the top. A degree is only the beginning factor of credentials.
In this particular case, not having access to all the evidence (alligations alone are not evidence) I can not conclude either way on it.
The same holds true for FUBU and BET, though here we don't even have alligations (that I know of).
As for Reverse Racism:
In 1991 after getting out of the US Navy, I took the entrance exam for the NYC fire department. I scored very well, which was expected due to all my damage control (fire-fighting) training in the USN. I didn't get on the department.
At the same time, there was alot of pressure on the NYC fire department because they only had a 8% or so minority participation, while the city was approaching a 50% minority population (these number are not exact, they are from memory).
I ran into similar problems in Jersey City, Philly, and Baltimore. I never was able to find a job in my desired career as a fire fighter.
the Off the record response I typically got was that I would have to wait for my chance because the department was under alot of pressure to increase minority participation.
What is even worse in this situation is that around this time, many fire departments began reducing their academic and physical requirements to try to increase their numbers of minorities. To me that begins to bring safety of fire fighters and the public into question. And it is not even necessary. The millions NYC spent on "dumbing down" their tests could have be spent on a school and gym to bring people up to the requirements.
Later in life, The woman I was working for died. I bought the small business from her kids. I contacted the Small Business Administration to apply for a loan to fund a marketing campaign and modernize some of the equipment. At the time the business was sound and established for just short of 5 years.
The person I talked to at the SBA told me. "Well sir, if time is money for you then I would not bother filing for this assistance". When I asked why I was told, "Because we have limited funds to help small businesses and you are not a minority".
I for one do not consider myself to be irrelevant, but then I am biased
When I was still in the Navy I had to make a delivery to the military personnel building outside Fort Monmouth, NJ. I waited for nearly 30 minutes for the person I needed to me to come accept the documents. It was around lunch time when I was waiting there. I saw probably 100 employees come and go from the building. Women, many races, and the disabled. I did not see one non-disabled white male at all. Coincidence?
Now, at one employer I was passed over for promotion in favor of a black man and a friend of mine. In this case, there was no RR he was CLEARLY more qualified then I and deserved the position, and he continued on up the corporate ladder since then. (Just pointing this out to show that I don't see every set back as RR).
There are many instances in my life where I wondered if RR was the reason for this or that. Further analysis by shows that most were not, but some questions remain unanswered. However, the two instances I list above are clearly RR that negatively effected me. How does it benefit the country to favor one group over other, especially when you choose to lower standards to do so?
Does racism exist? Yes. Do minorities still face problems in this country? Yes. Do we have work left to do to correct these things? Of course and I am all for it. But my support for corrective policies stop when the give special treatment to people simply on the basis of their race. I thought that was what we were trying to change.
Whites in this country still may hold the majority of positions of power. However, that does not mean that I and advantaged by this. When you look at what the powerful and the rich do, they generally give preferential treatment to others in their powerful and rich class, regardless of race.
Too many people and too policies try to make all of our problems out to be racially discriminatory, when in fact most are discriminatory based of class which is colorless.
The same holds true for FUBU and BET, though here we don't even have alligations (that I know of).
As for Reverse Racism:
In 1991 after getting out of the US Navy, I took the entrance exam for the NYC fire department. I scored very well, which was expected due to all my damage control (fire-fighting) training in the USN. I didn't get on the department.
At the same time, there was alot of pressure on the NYC fire department because they only had a 8% or so minority participation, while the city was approaching a 50% minority population (these number are not exact, they are from memory).
I ran into similar problems in Jersey City, Philly, and Baltimore. I never was able to find a job in my desired career as a fire fighter.
the Off the record response I typically got was that I would have to wait for my chance because the department was under alot of pressure to increase minority participation.
What is even worse in this situation is that around this time, many fire departments began reducing their academic and physical requirements to try to increase their numbers of minorities. To me that begins to bring safety of fire fighters and the public into question. And it is not even necessary. The millions NYC spent on "dumbing down" their tests could have be spent on a school and gym to bring people up to the requirements.
Later in life, The woman I was working for died. I bought the small business from her kids. I contacted the Small Business Administration to apply for a loan to fund a marketing campaign and modernize some of the equipment. At the time the business was sound and established for just short of 5 years.
The person I talked to at the SBA told me. "Well sir, if time is money for you then I would not bother filing for this assistance". When I asked why I was told, "Because we have limited funds to help small businesses and you are not a minority".
QUOTE
A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO
I for one do not consider myself to be irrelevant, but then I am biased
When I was still in the Navy I had to make a delivery to the military personnel building outside Fort Monmouth, NJ. I waited for nearly 30 minutes for the person I needed to me to come accept the documents. It was around lunch time when I was waiting there. I saw probably 100 employees come and go from the building. Women, many races, and the disabled. I did not see one non-disabled white male at all. Coincidence?
Now, at one employer I was passed over for promotion in favor of a black man and a friend of mine. In this case, there was no RR he was CLEARLY more qualified then I and deserved the position, and he continued on up the corporate ladder since then. (Just pointing this out to show that I don't see every set back as RR).
There are many instances in my life where I wondered if RR was the reason for this or that. Further analysis by shows that most were not, but some questions remain unanswered. However, the two instances I list above are clearly RR that negatively effected me. How does it benefit the country to favor one group over other, especially when you choose to lower standards to do so?
Does racism exist? Yes. Do minorities still face problems in this country? Yes. Do we have work left to do to correct these things? Of course and I am all for it. But my support for corrective policies stop when the give special treatment to people simply on the basis of their race. I thought that was what we were trying to change.
Whites in this country still may hold the majority of positions of power. However, that does not mean that I and advantaged by this. When you look at what the powerful and the rich do, they generally give preferential treatment to others in their powerful and rich class, regardless of race.
Too many people and too policies try to make all of our problems out to be racially discriminatory, when in fact most are discriminatory based of class which is colorless.
QUOTE(Vampiel @ Nov 17 2004, 11:42 AM)
QUOTE(giftzahn @ Nov 17 2004, 06:12 AM)
Hello!
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
Somebody used this graphics in another thread.
I don't know what happens when a person has to decide who to hire between a white person and another from the minority set, being the white person less qualified than the other one; but this graphic implies that when people have the same qualifications (or same education level) their incomes are still determined by their race.
It seems to me that at the end, there is not equal treatment.
http://www.publicagenda.com/issues/factfil...ype=race&list=7
Buenos dias
giftzahn
That doesn't provide evidence of racism. It only state's what level of degree the person has. What is most important for higher pay in most jobs is experience and reference's. You begin at the lower level's and make your way to the top. A degree is only the beginning factor of credentials.
It not only states the level of education but the income they have as well. What you say is true: income depend not only only on education level but on experience and references. But then: I would find it strange that the sample from where they got this information was obtained sampling only whites with more experience or better references than the rest (which would explain why they earn more). I would expect a representative sample where all possibilities are observed: all the races involved with a lot or few experience with bad, good or better references etc.
Or are we assuming that whites have normally more experience than the rest?
Assuming a representative sample: I won't go as far as naming it racism, but it sure doesn't seem like equal opportunities to me.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Thus far, in this debate, FUBU and BET have been introduced as evidence of a "double standard" in business in America. I hardly see that as a threat to white Americans in search of a job. Go down the street and you will find a vast array of clothing lines and networks that cater predominately to white America.
Further, FUBU and BET provide items and programming geared toward a certain segment of society, I cannot expect them to hire me when I do not have a firm grasp of what their needs/wants are at this time. Besides, when searching for jobs, there aren't too many people out there who haven't networked with friends, colleagues or family, looking for someone to give them an opportunity. These friends, colleagues and family have certain interests and heritages usually similar to our own. BET and FUBU are providing opportunities for black Americans, just as the Polish National Alliance provides opportunities to go to college through scholarships, etc.
Thus far, in this debate, FUBU and BET have been introduced as evidence of a "double standard" in business in America. I hardly see that as a threat to white Americans in search of a job. Go down the street and you will find a vast array of clothing lines and networks that cater predominately to white America.
Further, FUBU and BET provide items and programming geared toward a certain segment of society, I cannot expect them to hire me when I do not have a firm grasp of what their needs/wants are at this time. Besides, when searching for jobs, there aren't too many people out there who haven't networked with friends, colleagues or family, looking for someone to give them an opportunity. These friends, colleagues and family have certain interests and heritages usually similar to our own. BET and FUBU are providing opportunities for black Americans, just as the Polish National Alliance provides opportunities to go to college through scholarships, etc.
QUOTE(AllysonKing @ Nov 17 2004, 10:44 AM)
Further, FUBU and BET provide items and programming geared toward a certain segment of society, I cannot expect them to hire me when I do not have a firm grasp of what their needs/wants are at this time. Besides, when searching for jobs, there aren't too many people out there who haven't networked with friends, colleagues or family, looking for someone to give them an opportunity. These friends, colleagues and family have certain interests and heritages usually similar to our own. BET and FUBU are providing opportunities for black Americans, just as the Polish National Alliance provides opportunities to go to college through scholarships, etc.
Following this line of thinking then, would you say it would be totally acceptable for companies who's products are geared towards white Americans to only hire white Americans because other races "do not have a firm grasp of what their [in this case whites] needs/wants are at this time"?
It would seem to me that by this standard, Abercrombie & Fitch Co.'s actions would also be limiting hiring to those best suited to address their target audience.
I don't think this is the case with Abercrombie & Fitch, but then I also do not agree that limiting hiring to members of a particular race or sex, based on your target market is acceptable. Regardless of what segment of the population makes up that market.
RR is not only encouraged, but enforced as well.
Read this link, and imagine white americans doing the same.
http://www.citycom.com/links/NBO1.html
Read this link, and imagine white americans doing the same.
http://www.citycom.com/links/NBO1.html
[QUOTE][quote]The affirmative action whining, conviently ignoring the fact that the majority of benefits of affirmative action go to white women.[/quote]
Could you provide evidence that "affirmative action" benifit's white women prodominatly?[/QUOTE]
Sho nuff. Affirmative Action: Who Benefits?
Quote:
[QUOTE]Finally, although affirmative action policies appear to target women and people outside a majority group as 'beneficiaries,' majority group members benefit as much as minority groups, if not more, from such policies. Although opinion polls reveal that many Whites believe they are unfairly discriminated against by affirmative action policies, it is Whites who benefit most. This is because of their larger numbers in most sectors covered by affirmative action interventions.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][quote]White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen.[/quote]
Statisically speaking, white people are also the majority of the United State's so does that mean that white people are racist or is it that white people are dumber than the minorities therefore the minorities are the one's that should hold most of the power?
The United State's is a Republic. When you deduce the amount of whites vs. black's then the people who hold the power are actually quite balanced. You may see that more white people are in the office of who holds the power, but percentage wise it only make's sense.[/QUOTE]
My point was not that any of it is racist, but that white men cannot really make any legitimate claim to being widely oppressed.
[QUOTE][quote]Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.[/quote]
Provide evidence that white's where less qualified, and what percentage? Again, white's are the majority so you should expect more accepted into any school simple because white's outnumber the minorities.[/QUOTE]
I really don't have to provide evidence, it's on you and the other white males in this thread who say that there's this massive epidemic of reverse racism. That said, let me make it clear that I don't agree with affirmative action in its current state. Not because I care about reverse racism, but because it's simply ineffective at its core at addressing the needs of minorities in a majority ruled society.
[QUOTE][quote]Is reverse racism wrong? Of course, when it actually happens. But I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide a lot more proof than FUBU and black scholarships to convince me that there's a widespread movement against white males, that the majority of Americans see white men as inferior and deem it acceptable to treat them as such.
[/quote]
I dont believe that the "majority" of Americans see white men as inferior, but the law's certianly give criteria to color of skin over qualification.[/QUOTE]
ONE law. ONE Civil Rights Act of 1964. There are not dozens upon dozens of laws designed to "keep the white man down." There is ONE law that makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few extra points based on their minority status. I don't agree with this, but this certainly does not equate to widespread institutionalized reverse racism.
[QUOTE][quote]I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
[/quote]
I acknowledge that minorities have, in the past, endured much pain and suffering due to rampant racism. I do not believe that rampant racism against whites, or blacks, exist today, let me make that clear.
Furthermore you are talking to one white male who has experience real racism.[/QUOTE]
And I know perfectly well that you and people like you exist. But you are in the extreme minority, which is why I have a problem with you guys claiming that reverse racism is so bad that it's an even bigger problem than non-reverse racism.
[QUOTE][quote]It's because when a white male is alleged to have been racially discriminated against, it's news.[/quote]
No, because it's the law. [/QUOTE]
Um, no, it's quite simply because it happens so rarely that when it does happen, it's news.
[QUOTE]I shouldnt have worded that "reverse racism" is rampant, but rather "it is the law". The law state's that businesses must hit a certian criteria of the minority. But BET doesnt have to worry about hitting a certian percentage of white's because we are not the minority even though we make up majority of the population, in their industry, we make up a very small minority. So where is the equal protection? If white's make up 60% of the general population shouldnt that reflect on BET that we also make up 60% of their employee's? Or is it ok to higher someone because you believe the color of their skin better fits your business? So should there be a law that 60% of the business should be made up of whites, or is it ok that there is a law that 13% blacks and 15% hispanics should make up a business but there doesnt even need to be 1% of whites?[/QUOTE]
I've never said that I agree with affirmative action. All I've argued in this thread is that reverse racism is not the massive problem white males like to make it out to be.
[QUOTE][quote]Because it's practically the status quo. "Blacks frequent target for random police stops" is not as newsworthy as "white male rejected for college acceptance for lesser-qualified minority." A 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year news channel that reported nothing but occurrances of racism against minorities still wouldn't be enough to cover them all.[/quote]
Black male's also make up 40% of the prison population. Does that mean they are discriminated against or they just happen to commit the most crimes?[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you're trying to go with this. All I was saying was that reverse racism seems so disproportionate because when it happens, it's newsworthy. When non-reverse racism happens, it's not news. Therefore you get a distorted view of racism in American society.
[QUOTE]Im not racist - not at all. But a human should not be recognized by the color of their skin when making an arrest or higher them to a job.[/QUOTE]
I think we both agree here.
[QUOTE]And if their is "rampant" arresting of blacks that did not commit a crime please provide evidence of recent data showing so.
Black's made up 15% of the prison population 50 years ago, now they make up 40%. Do you believe racism is more rampant now than it was in the 50's? Or are black's commiting more crimes percentage wise?
Please be realistic. Im not racist at all -- but you have to be realistic in what the stat's say. If you have evidence that there is a huge conspiracy against blacks within the police departments, please provide it.[/QUOTE]
When have I ever indicated that there was? You're responding to me like I advocated eight different racist conspiracy theories in my post. But yes, I do believe that racism affects all different branches of the government, and disproportionately blacks. Being convicted by a "jury of your peers?" The "War on Drugs?" The continuous assaults on welfare - which I believe is only because more people don't realize that more whites are on welfare than blacks, because if they did I highly doubt they'd be fighting so damn hard to not help the struggling underclass. Needless to say, I take such crime statistics with a moderate helping of salt. Blacks make up 40% of the prison population? I'm not even going to follow that to its "logical" conclusion because I think that more blacks are caught, not that more commit more crimes. It may seem irrational to you, like I'm reaching to justify these statistics, but I've seen but a glimpse of true racism in the police department, and I've got no problem at all believing that the majority of them scrutinize blacks more closely and thus arrest them more frequently, while letting white crime of the same nature go by because they're too preoccupied putting us blacks in our proper place - in jail. It may sound a little conspiracy theorist to you, but walk a mile in my shoes...
[QUOTE][quote]So here's a little of advice to you guys: get over it and accept it. I don't see you guys getting outraged over racism when it doesn't happen to you or one of your fellow white males, so I feel little to no concern when it (rarely) happens to one of you.[/quote]
Accept that minorities are favored in laws just because they are minorities? I dont think so, the best human should get the job/college slot based on their creditials not their color. They should wipe out the little box of race alltogether.[/QUOTE]
Sure, we're so favored by so many laws. ONE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964, please get the hell over it. There are not hundreds of laws tipped in our favor - in fact the entire system is very determinedly tipped against us. I can't believe you honestly think that today's laws FAVOR black people. None so blind as those who don't want to see, I guess. Sheesh.
Wow, I was born black and female! What a wonderful priveleged position I enjoy by nature of my birth. I'm ever so grateful to have been lucky enough to have been born black and female in today's society, unlike those poor white males who have to struggle every day against overwhelming barriers and stereotypes so people will view them as being as smart and competent and hardworking as us black females.
[QUOTE]Do you not agree that the law should be blind to race/gender?[/QUOTE] Sure. Theoretically speaking. As long as there are institutions like the Westerville Police (among a plethora of other institutionalized racism) this will never, ever, ever be.
[QUOTE]Again you are talking to "one of those few whites" that experienced real racism.[/QUOTE] Yes yes, I get it.
I hold no ill toward any color/race/sex/religion, we are all human and the law's should reflect that.
In short laws should not recognize skin color/religion period. That's all I ask. May the best person get the job and may the best person get the college slot.
[/quote]
This viewpoint, of course, entirely overlooks the fact that human beings are... well, human beings and harbor many irrational racial, religious and sexist hatred. In a perfect world, no one would look at my skin. In a perfect world, Robbie would not have come up to my blond haired, blue eyed boyfriend and asked him if he really was dating "a black girl." In a perfect world, my mother would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop and been accused of throwing her registration at him after he took it and let it go. In a perfect world I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop for not signaling while making a right turn a few months ago. In a perfect world, I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop last week for not having a license plate on the front of my car. In a perfect world, cops would not walk up to my dad with their hands placed over their holsters after they pull him over. In a perfect world, I would not have to be worried about my little brother dating white girls lest they try to accuse him of sexually assaulting them. In a perfect world...
But no, these are the realities I face and simply saying that things should not be that way does not automatically make it so. I cannot sit here and say "well racism shouldn't exist, so because it shouldn't exist I'm not going to take action or support laws against it when it does." That is absurd. Racism is alive and thriving, albeit in much less subtler ways. I'm sorry, but as a white male you will never experience any of the things I have listed above, and there really is a lot more where that came from but this response is long enough as it it. So until your racist encounters measure up to a fraction of what minorities have had to endure, I think I'll stick to my original theory, which is that reverse racism is but less than a fraction of the racist going-ons that happen in this country every day, and as such is not worthy of the massive examination and scrutiny it has been getting. Your personal anecdotes have yet to convince me that racism against white males can even touch the level of racism against minorities.
EDITED TO ADD: can someone edit this post to fix the quoting? I don't know why it did what it did. Until then, my words are bolded.
Could you provide evidence that "affirmative action" benifit's white women prodominatly?[/QUOTE]
Sho nuff. Affirmative Action: Who Benefits?
Quote:
[QUOTE]Finally, although affirmative action policies appear to target women and people outside a majority group as 'beneficiaries,' majority group members benefit as much as minority groups, if not more, from such policies. Although opinion polls reveal that many Whites believe they are unfairly discriminated against by affirmative action policies, it is Whites who benefit most. This is because of their larger numbers in most sectors covered by affirmative action interventions.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][quote]White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen.[/quote]
Statisically speaking, white people are also the majority of the United State's so does that mean that white people are racist or is it that white people are dumber than the minorities therefore the minorities are the one's that should hold most of the power?
The United State's is a Republic. When you deduce the amount of whites vs. black's then the people who hold the power are actually quite balanced. You may see that more white people are in the office of who holds the power, but percentage wise it only make's sense.[/QUOTE]
My point was not that any of it is racist, but that white men cannot really make any legitimate claim to being widely oppressed.
[QUOTE][quote]Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.[/quote]
Provide evidence that white's where less qualified, and what percentage? Again, white's are the majority so you should expect more accepted into any school simple because white's outnumber the minorities.[/QUOTE]
I really don't have to provide evidence, it's on you and the other white males in this thread who say that there's this massive epidemic of reverse racism. That said, let me make it clear that I don't agree with affirmative action in its current state. Not because I care about reverse racism, but because it's simply ineffective at its core at addressing the needs of minorities in a majority ruled society.
[QUOTE][quote]Is reverse racism wrong? Of course, when it actually happens. But I'm sorry, you're going to have to provide a lot more proof than FUBU and black scholarships to convince me that there's a widespread movement against white males, that the majority of Americans see white men as inferior and deem it acceptable to treat them as such.
[/quote]
I dont believe that the "majority" of Americans see white men as inferior, but the law's certianly give criteria to color of skin over qualification.[/QUOTE]
ONE law. ONE Civil Rights Act of 1964. There are not dozens upon dozens of laws designed to "keep the white man down." There is ONE law that makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few extra points based on their minority status. I don't agree with this, but this certainly does not equate to widespread institutionalized reverse racism.
[QUOTE][quote]I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
[/quote]
I acknowledge that minorities have, in the past, endured much pain and suffering due to rampant racism. I do not believe that rampant racism against whites, or blacks, exist today, let me make that clear.
Furthermore you are talking to one white male who has experience real racism.[/QUOTE]
And I know perfectly well that you and people like you exist. But you are in the extreme minority, which is why I have a problem with you guys claiming that reverse racism is so bad that it's an even bigger problem than non-reverse racism.
[QUOTE][quote]It's because when a white male is alleged to have been racially discriminated against, it's news.[/quote]
No, because it's the law. [/QUOTE]
Um, no, it's quite simply because it happens so rarely that when it does happen, it's news.
[QUOTE]I shouldnt have worded that "reverse racism" is rampant, but rather "it is the law". The law state's that businesses must hit a certian criteria of the minority. But BET doesnt have to worry about hitting a certian percentage of white's because we are not the minority even though we make up majority of the population, in their industry, we make up a very small minority. So where is the equal protection? If white's make up 60% of the general population shouldnt that reflect on BET that we also make up 60% of their employee's? Or is it ok to higher someone because you believe the color of their skin better fits your business? So should there be a law that 60% of the business should be made up of whites, or is it ok that there is a law that 13% blacks and 15% hispanics should make up a business but there doesnt even need to be 1% of whites?[/QUOTE]
I've never said that I agree with affirmative action. All I've argued in this thread is that reverse racism is not the massive problem white males like to make it out to be.
[QUOTE][quote]Because it's practically the status quo. "Blacks frequent target for random police stops" is not as newsworthy as "white male rejected for college acceptance for lesser-qualified minority." A 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year news channel that reported nothing but occurrances of racism against minorities still wouldn't be enough to cover them all.[/quote]
Black male's also make up 40% of the prison population. Does that mean they are discriminated against or they just happen to commit the most crimes?[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you're trying to go with this. All I was saying was that reverse racism seems so disproportionate because when it happens, it's newsworthy. When non-reverse racism happens, it's not news. Therefore you get a distorted view of racism in American society.
[QUOTE]Im not racist - not at all. But a human should not be recognized by the color of their skin when making an arrest or higher them to a job.[/QUOTE]
I think we both agree here.
[QUOTE]And if their is "rampant" arresting of blacks that did not commit a crime please provide evidence of recent data showing so.
Black's made up 15% of the prison population 50 years ago, now they make up 40%. Do you believe racism is more rampant now than it was in the 50's? Or are black's commiting more crimes percentage wise?
Please be realistic. Im not racist at all -- but you have to be realistic in what the stat's say. If you have evidence that there is a huge conspiracy against blacks within the police departments, please provide it.[/QUOTE]
When have I ever indicated that there was? You're responding to me like I advocated eight different racist conspiracy theories in my post. But yes, I do believe that racism affects all different branches of the government, and disproportionately blacks. Being convicted by a "jury of your peers?" The "War on Drugs?" The continuous assaults on welfare - which I believe is only because more people don't realize that more whites are on welfare than blacks, because if they did I highly doubt they'd be fighting so damn hard to not help the struggling underclass. Needless to say, I take such crime statistics with a moderate helping of salt. Blacks make up 40% of the prison population? I'm not even going to follow that to its "logical" conclusion because I think that more blacks are caught, not that more commit more crimes. It may seem irrational to you, like I'm reaching to justify these statistics, but I've seen but a glimpse of true racism in the police department, and I've got no problem at all believing that the majority of them scrutinize blacks more closely and thus arrest them more frequently, while letting white crime of the same nature go by because they're too preoccupied putting us blacks in our proper place - in jail. It may sound a little conspiracy theorist to you, but walk a mile in my shoes...
[QUOTE][quote]So here's a little of advice to you guys: get over it and accept it. I don't see you guys getting outraged over racism when it doesn't happen to you or one of your fellow white males, so I feel little to no concern when it (rarely) happens to one of you.[/quote]
Accept that minorities are favored in laws just because they are minorities? I dont think so, the best human should get the job/college slot based on their creditials not their color. They should wipe out the little box of race alltogether.[/QUOTE]
Sure, we're so favored by so many laws. ONE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964, please get the hell over it. There are not hundreds of laws tipped in our favor - in fact the entire system is very determinedly tipped against us. I can't believe you honestly think that today's laws FAVOR black people. None so blind as those who don't want to see, I guess. Sheesh.
Wow, I was born black and female! What a wonderful priveleged position I enjoy by nature of my birth. I'm ever so grateful to have been lucky enough to have been born black and female in today's society, unlike those poor white males who have to struggle every day against overwhelming barriers and stereotypes so people will view them as being as smart and competent and hardworking as us black females.
[QUOTE]Do you not agree that the law should be blind to race/gender?[/QUOTE] Sure. Theoretically speaking. As long as there are institutions like the Westerville Police (among a plethora of other institutionalized racism) this will never, ever, ever be.
[QUOTE]Again you are talking to "one of those few whites" that experienced real racism.[/QUOTE] Yes yes, I get it.
I hold no ill toward any color/race/sex/religion, we are all human and the law's should reflect that.
In short laws should not recognize skin color/religion period. That's all I ask. May the best person get the job and may the best person get the college slot.
[/quote]
This viewpoint, of course, entirely overlooks the fact that human beings are... well, human beings and harbor many irrational racial, religious and sexist hatred. In a perfect world, no one would look at my skin. In a perfect world, Robbie would not have come up to my blond haired, blue eyed boyfriend and asked him if he really was dating "a black girl." In a perfect world, my mother would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop and been accused of throwing her registration at him after he took it and let it go. In a perfect world I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop for not signaling while making a right turn a few months ago. In a perfect world, I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop last week for not having a license plate on the front of my car. In a perfect world, cops would not walk up to my dad with their hands placed over their holsters after they pull him over. In a perfect world, I would not have to be worried about my little brother dating white girls lest they try to accuse him of sexually assaulting them. In a perfect world...
But no, these are the realities I face and simply saying that things should not be that way does not automatically make it so. I cannot sit here and say "well racism shouldn't exist, so because it shouldn't exist I'm not going to take action or support laws against it when it does." That is absurd. Racism is alive and thriving, albeit in much less subtler ways. I'm sorry, but as a white male you will never experience any of the things I have listed above, and there really is a lot more where that came from but this response is long enough as it it. So until your racist encounters measure up to a fraction of what minorities have had to endure, I think I'll stick to my original theory, which is that reverse racism is but less than a fraction of the racist going-ons that happen in this country every day, and as such is not worthy of the massive examination and scrutiny it has been getting. Your personal anecdotes have yet to convince me that racism against white males can even touch the level of racism against minorities.
EDITED TO ADD: can someone edit this post to fix the quoting? I don't know why it did what it did. Until then, my words are bolded.
QUOTE
ONE law. ONE Civil Rights Act of 1964. There are not dozens upon dozens of laws designed to "keep the white man down." There is ONE law that makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few extra points based on their minority status. I don't agree with this, but this certainly does not equate to widespread institutionalized reverse racism.
Suzy: I don't believe that anyone here is saying that there is widespread racism against white people. And if anyone is, they're not right, but I don't see anyone saying that here [I could be wrong]. But, in regard to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Act is legal hypocrisy. You say it makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few [ The U. Of Michigan gave 20, I believe] extra points based on their minority status. Well, this is a quote from the Act.
QUOTE(Civil Rights Act of 1964)
Sec. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
Now by definition, giving someone "a few extra points" for college is a violation of the Act, as it applies not only to minorities, but to everyone. With that said....QUOTE
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Yes, absolutely there is. Whenever conventional racism [white vs. anyone else] occurs everyone is furious about it [and they should be], but when ever there is "reverse racism" [there's no such thing, racism is racism] not nearly as many people are up in arms.
QUOTE
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Yes. But don't get me wrong, Abercrombie is wrong for their hiring processes, they are racist, but so are FUBU's. They both should be sued.QUOTE
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Yes, see answer to question one.CP
[quote=ConservPat,Nov 17 2004, 10:51 PM]
[quote]ONE law. ONE Civil Rights Act of 1964. There are not dozens upon dozens of laws designed to "keep the white man down." There is ONE law that makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few extra points based on their minority status. I don't agree with this, but this certainly does not equate to widespread institutionalized reverse racism.[/quote]
Suzy: I don't believe that anyone here is saying that there is widespread racism against white people. And if anyone is, they're not right, but I don't see anyone saying that here [I could be wrong]. But, in regard to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Act is legal hypocrisy. You say it makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few [ The U. Of Michigan gave 20, I believe] extra points based on their minority status. Well, this is a quote from the Act. [quote=Civil Rights Act of 1964]Sec. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.[/quote]Now by definition, giving someone "a few extra points" for college is a violation of the Act, as it applies not only to minorities, but to everyone. With that said....
[quote]Is there a racial double standard in business in America?[/quote]
Yes, absolutely there is. Whenever conventional racism [white vs. anyone else] occurs everyone is furious about it [and they should be], but when ever there is "reverse racism" [there's no such thing, racism is racism] not nearly as many people are up in arms.
[quote]Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?[/quote]Yes. But don't get me wrong, Abercrombie is wrong for their hiring processes, they are racist, but so are FUBU's. They both should be sued.
[quote]Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general? [/quote]Yes, see answer to question one.
CP
[/quote]
------------------------------------------
I had no intention of quoting this last post, I merely hit "reply"
This however is what I would like to address...
[QUOTE] In a perfect world I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop for not signaling while making a right turn a few months ago.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should have signaled.
[QUOTE] In a perfect world, I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop last week for not having a license plate on the front of my car.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, you should get one.
[QUOTE] In a perfect world, cops would not walk up to my dad with their hands placed over their holsters after they pull him over.[/QUOTE]
What did he get pulled over for?
[QUOTE] I would not have to be worried about my little brother dating white girls lest they try to accuse him of sexually assaulting them[/QUOTE]
Maybe, he should date black girls.
[QUOTE]It may seem irrational to you, like I'm reaching to justify these statistics, but I've seen but a glimpse of true racism in the police department,[/QUOTE]
What you have seen, is you and your family breaking traffic laws and getting caught.
[quote]ONE law. ONE Civil Rights Act of 1964. There are not dozens upon dozens of laws designed to "keep the white man down." There is ONE law that makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few extra points based on their minority status. I don't agree with this, but this certainly does not equate to widespread institutionalized reverse racism.[/quote]
Suzy: I don't believe that anyone here is saying that there is widespread racism against white people. And if anyone is, they're not right, but I don't see anyone saying that here [I could be wrong]. But, in regard to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Act is legal hypocrisy. You say it makes it legal for colleges to give someone a few [ The U. Of Michigan gave 20, I believe] extra points based on their minority status. Well, this is a quote from the Act. [quote=Civil Rights Act of 1964]Sec. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.[/quote]Now by definition, giving someone "a few extra points" for college is a violation of the Act, as it applies not only to minorities, but to everyone. With that said....
[quote]Is there a racial double standard in business in America?[/quote]
Yes, absolutely there is. Whenever conventional racism [white vs. anyone else] occurs everyone is furious about it [and they should be], but when ever there is "reverse racism" [there's no such thing, racism is racism] not nearly as many people are up in arms.
[quote]Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?[/quote]Yes. But don't get me wrong, Abercrombie is wrong for their hiring processes, they are racist, but so are FUBU's. They both should be sued.
[quote]Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general? [/quote]Yes, see answer to question one.
CP
[/quote]
------------------------------------------
I had no intention of quoting this last post, I merely hit "reply"
This however is what I would like to address...
[QUOTE] In a perfect world I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop for not signaling while making a right turn a few months ago.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should have signaled.
[QUOTE] In a perfect world, I would not have been pulled over by a Westerville cop last week for not having a license plate on the front of my car.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, you should get one.
[QUOTE] In a perfect world, cops would not walk up to my dad with their hands placed over their holsters after they pull him over.[/QUOTE]
What did he get pulled over for?
[QUOTE] I would not have to be worried about my little brother dating white girls lest they try to accuse him of sexually assaulting them[/QUOTE]
Maybe, he should date black girls.
[QUOTE]It may seem irrational to you, like I'm reaching to justify these statistics, but I've seen but a glimpse of true racism in the police department,[/QUOTE]
What you have seen, is you and your family breaking traffic laws and getting caught.
Real Paladin- please do not make this debate personal.
Everyone - we have very specific topics for this thread. Stick to them or we will close this.
DEBATE:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Everyone - we have very specific topics for this thread. Stick to them or we will close this.
DEBATE:
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
QUOTE(overlandsailor @ Nov 17 2004, 05:12 PM)
Following this line of thinking then, would you say it would be totally acceptable for companies who's products are geared towards white Americans to only hire white Americans because other races "do not have a firm grasp of what their [in this case whites] needs/wants are at this time"?
This is common practice, is it not? It isn't as blatant as FUBU, but it is there. But again, I see no problem with hiring people that fit the criteria of the population to which they are marketing. How many senior citizens have you seen modeling Gap clothing, and conversely, how many teenagers are marketing polyester pants? Would a 110 pound woman be able to address the clothing needs of plus size women? No.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find any data, but I'd love to see employment stats from FUBU, and, say, Ann Taylor (selecting just one of many lines). I would venture to say they would be similar in terms of ratios. The only difference is that the stores catering to Caucasians would far out number those catering to African Americans.
I'll admit, two of you have struck a personal chord in me. And I'm going to address both of you, persuant to the topic, of course.
First, Quarkhead.
Granted, I have no concrete statistics regarding the make-up of FUBU's staff, but is my "supposition" not a logical one to make? Sure, they probably have a handful of white or non-african americans working for them, but insignificant compared to the number of african americans who work there. I mean, let's be honest. The company intitals stand for "For Us, By Us", and I don't think they mean New Yorkers.
Personally, I could care less who they hire and who they don't. If it's illegal, it's illegal. It just better be illegal for EVERYONE.
But I'm not the only one who uses suppositions...
Widespread? Isn't that a little bit of a stretch based on the info given?
Either our guesses are worthless, or we both have made decent hypotheses based on what we know from the outside world.
Now, just for a moment, read the text of the article describing the nature of the lawsuit. You avoided this in your first post and I want to know what you think.
"...cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere..."
Ok, I provided a link to the FUBU website which contains a small catalogue of their clothing line. Here it is again...
FUBU
Now, go through the catalogue and tell me how many white people you see modeling their clothes. I know I checked. 0...zero, zilch, nada. Not even a hispanic or an asian.
And yet A&F were being sued, in part, for the exact same thing.
If that's not hypocracy...
Now, on to Suzy.
Really? Well, what about this....?
Black Judges in America
Oh, and don't forget about Clarence Thomas.
The Congressional Black Caucus
39 members of Congress belong to that caucus.
Fortune 500's Fifty Most Powerful Black Execs
Let's see some of those who are on that list and their companies.
Stanley O'Neal, COO of Merrill Lynch
Ken Chenault, CEO of American Express
Richard Parsons, CEO of AOL Time Warner
Call me crazy, but there's a lot of black people in power. So I wouldn't play that card.
I never once said it was "rampant", I just asked if there is, period. But apparently, whether it be one case or one hundred, it's insignificant beacuse of the amount that is endured by everyone else.
Either its wrong for EVERYONE, or it's wrong for NO ONE.
I suppose I'll just have to get over it.
You've basically proved Larry Elder's point that there is a double standard and that there is a "no fly zone" for these companies. Wow. That's all I can say to the amount of hypocracy in that statement, but I'm sure it won't be the last.
Well, it is a hard knock life for us. Give me a break, I don't think any of the above mentioned items listed are racist. But is it fair to be sued for having "a virtually all-white catalogue", when FUBU is doing the exact same thing? How can you ignore that?
Now this is one of the most angering statements I've ever read. Apperantly, my injustices are no equal to yours, only because yours appear to be greater in number.
Now I could bore you with stories about my grandfather's (who was Mexican) friends would make comments like "Va la Raza" (There goes the race) when I mother would pass by because she was half-Mexican, or the time my sister was runout of an elementary school because she was white, taunted to the point where she'd come home upset.
Or how about the few times I was asked (compared to the ones who just stared) if I was a Nazi because I wore an Iron cross on my jacket. Never mind the fact that there were plenty of "brown pride" shirts at school.
Never mind the fact that I've never seen a "Teutonic Student Association" at school, in the midst of all the or diverse clubs availlable. *(I was a member of an Asian Club at two high schools)
But I won't bother you with them, because you are a victim, not me. I have no real complaint, do I? You claim that we want to play the victim...and yet, half of your post is a "woe is me speech". That "we" have no right to complain. No cause for grievance, not like you do.
And this is apart of the very hypocracy I am talking about. I never once suggested it was "rampant" or "widespread", just there.
And as racism, period, should never be acceptable, it should be confronted no matter whom is affronted, and the inequities, embodied in your very post, Suzy, should be confronted as well.
Either we examines the practices of all businesses, or we examine the practices of none. And since we know what the reaction to "none" would be, I'd suggest we all take a step back and examine this hypocracy for what it is...
...wrong.
First, Quarkhead.
Granted, I have no concrete statistics regarding the make-up of FUBU's staff, but is my "supposition" not a logical one to make? Sure, they probably have a handful of white or non-african americans working for them, but insignificant compared to the number of african americans who work there. I mean, let's be honest. The company intitals stand for "For Us, By Us", and I don't think they mean New Yorkers.
Personally, I could care less who they hire and who they don't. If it's illegal, it's illegal. It just better be illegal for EVERYONE.
But I'm not the only one who uses suppositions...
QUOTE
Quarkhead
Ocampo worked four years ago as a sales rep at an Abercrombie store during his Christmas break from Stanford University. He says he assumed his job would still be available when he returned home that summer, but when he turned up for work he found out he lost his job.
"’We're sorry. We can't rehire you because we already have too many Filipinos working at this store,’" recalls Ocampo. “Too many Filipinos. That was her exact words … I was speechless. I didn't really know what to say. I've never seen racism that explicit prior to that.”
(from the article)
and:
QUOTE
Lu says she was fired after corporate officials visited the store, and according to her, didn’t like what they saw: “A corporate official had pointed to an Abercrombie poster and told our management at our store, ‘You need to have more staff that looks like this.’ And it was a white Caucasian male on that poster.”
She says shortly thereafter that several Asian-American salespeople were fired and replaced with white males.
Two Asian-Americans. Apparently, this type of practice was widespread.
Ocampo worked four years ago as a sales rep at an Abercrombie store during his Christmas break from Stanford University. He says he assumed his job would still be available when he returned home that summer, but when he turned up for work he found out he lost his job.
"’We're sorry. We can't rehire you because we already have too many Filipinos working at this store,’" recalls Ocampo. “Too many Filipinos. That was her exact words … I was speechless. I didn't really know what to say. I've never seen racism that explicit prior to that.”
(from the article)
and:
QUOTE
Lu says she was fired after corporate officials visited the store, and according to her, didn’t like what they saw: “A corporate official had pointed to an Abercrombie poster and told our management at our store, ‘You need to have more staff that looks like this.’ And it was a white Caucasian male on that poster.”
She says shortly thereafter that several Asian-American salespeople were fired and replaced with white males.
Two Asian-Americans. Apparently, this type of practice was widespread.
Widespread? Isn't that a little bit of a stretch based on the info given?
Either our guesses are worthless, or we both have made decent hypotheses based on what we know from the outside world.
Now, just for a moment, read the text of the article describing the nature of the lawsuit. You avoided this in your first post and I want to know what you think.
QUOTE
The lawsuit was filed last June in San Francisco by Hispanic and Asian groups charging that Abercrombie & Fitch, known for its "classic casual American" clothing styles, hires a disproportionately white sales force, puts minorities in less-visible jobs and cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere...
"...cultivates a virtually all-white image in its catalogues and elsewhere..."
Ok, I provided a link to the FUBU website which contains a small catalogue of their clothing line. Here it is again...
FUBU
Now, go through the catalogue and tell me how many white people you see modeling their clothes. I know I checked. 0...zero, zilch, nada. Not even a hispanic or an asian.
And yet A&F were being sued, in part, for the exact same thing.
If that's not hypocracy...
Now, on to Suzy.
QUOTE
Suzy
White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen.
White men are the people in power. Predominantly white men make the laws, set the rules, are the judges, are the businessmen.
Really? Well, what about this....?
Black Judges in America
Oh, and don't forget about Clarence Thomas.
The Congressional Black Caucus
39 members of Congress belong to that caucus.
Fortune 500's Fifty Most Powerful Black Execs
Let's see some of those who are on that list and their companies.
Stanley O'Neal, COO of Merrill Lynch
Ken Chenault, CEO of American Express
Richard Parsons, CEO of AOL Time Warner
Call me crazy, but there's a lot of black people in power. So I wouldn't play that card.
QUOTE
Suzy
I'm sorry, I have a really hard time believing you guys are really that oppressed. I think that there are maybe a handful at best of legitimate reverse racism cases in this country, and either way they are completely dwarfed by the magnitude of non-reverse racism in this country...
...Honestly, please get over it and stop wanting to play a victim. Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.
I'm sorry, I have a really hard time believing you guys are really that oppressed. I think that there are maybe a handful at best of legitimate reverse racism cases in this country, and either way they are completely dwarfed by the magnitude of non-reverse racism in this country...
...Honestly, please get over it and stop wanting to play a victim. Reverse racism is not rampant, millions of minorities are not being accepted into a job or school a year over more qualified white men.
I never once said it was "rampant", I just asked if there is, period. But apparently, whether it be one case or one hundred, it's insignificant beacuse of the amount that is endured by everyone else.
Either its wrong for EVERYONE, or it's wrong for NO ONE.
I suppose I'll just have to get over it.
QUOTE
Suzy
If A&F is discriminating against its employees because of race, then this is wrong. Period. No matter what FUBU does, or BET, or any of the multitude of black-themed things that whites love to point out to justify their own racism, it does not excuse A&F. Bringing FUBU and the like into the mix is a very thin attempt to do exactly that.
If A&F is discriminating against its employees because of race, then this is wrong. Period. No matter what FUBU does, or BET, or any of the multitude of black-themed things that whites love to point out to justify their own racism, it does not excuse A&F. Bringing FUBU and the like into the mix is a very thin attempt to do exactly that.
You've basically proved Larry Elder's point that there is a double standard and that there is a "no fly zone" for these companies. Wow. That's all I can say to the amount of hypocracy in that statement, but I'm sure it won't be the last.
QUOTE
Suzy
Ooh, they have special scholarships! That's racism! They have BET! That's racism! They have the Black America Beauty Pageant! RACISM! FUBU! Oh how oppressed us poor white males are. Something must be done. The housing discrimination, the racial profiling by cops, honestly I don't know how you guys manage with all that reverse racism. I sure know I couldn't do it.
Ooh, they have special scholarships! That's racism! They have BET! That's racism! They have the Black America Beauty Pageant! RACISM! FUBU! Oh how oppressed us poor white males are. Something must be done. The housing discrimination, the racial profiling by cops, honestly I don't know how you guys manage with all that reverse racism. I sure know I couldn't do it.
Well, it is a hard knock life for us. Give me a break, I don't think any of the above mentioned items listed are racist. But is it fair to be sued for having "a virtually all-white catalogue", when FUBU is doing the exact same thing? How can you ignore that?
QUOTE
Suzy
I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
I am, quite frankly, sick and damn tired of seeing white males bringing up these kinds of things to try to support their delusions of being so damn oppressed. A fraction of you have experienced real racism. A quite irrelevant fraction, IMHO, compared to what I and the overwhelming majority of not just blacks, but other minorities have had to deal with during our lifetimes. Women, Hispanics, Native Americans, any minority.
Now this is one of the most angering statements I've ever read. Apperantly, my injustices are no equal to yours, only because yours appear to be greater in number.
Now I could bore you with stories about my grandfather's (who was Mexican) friends would make comments like "Va la Raza" (There goes the race) when I mother would pass by because she was half-Mexican, or the time my sister was runout of an elementary school because she was white, taunted to the point where she'd come home upset.
Or how about the few times I was asked (compared to the ones who just stared) if I was a Nazi because I wore an Iron cross on my jacket. Never mind the fact that there were plenty of "brown pride" shirts at school.
Never mind the fact that I've never seen a "Teutonic Student Association" at school, in the midst of all the or diverse clubs availlable. *(I was a member of an Asian Club at two high schools)
But I won't bother you with them, because you are a victim, not me. I have no real complaint, do I? You claim that we want to play the victim...and yet, half of your post is a "woe is me speech". That "we" have no right to complain. No cause for grievance, not like you do.
And this is apart of the very hypocracy I am talking about. I never once suggested it was "rampant" or "widespread", just there.
And as racism, period, should never be acceptable, it should be confronted no matter whom is affronted, and the inequities, embodied in your very post, Suzy, should be confronted as well.
Either we examines the practices of all businesses, or we examine the practices of none. And since we know what the reaction to "none" would be, I'd suggest we all take a step back and examine this hypocracy for what it is...
...wrong.
I don't want to stray too far from the topic at hand, but this debate does merit a bit of a preface - and quite a few collateral issues have been raised here.
Part of the problem with this sort of debate is that a lot of people tend to argue as though America suddenly popped into existence yesterday - with no history of slavery, no history of oppression, no history of discrimination, no history of inequality - no history.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance. Until very recently in our history, every television network, every affiliate, every local station, every advertiser - was part of the White Entertainment Network. Every newspaper, every magazine, every radio station was part of the White Media. Every college was a "whites only" college. Advancement in every business was also "whites only" - even hiring, except for the most menial jobs, was "whites only".
If, following the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (or the executive orders of JFK and LBJ or Nixon's Department of Labor), there had been an overnight change in our business practice, our college admissions, our media, and our entertainment - hey, presto: instant equality - I would agree with many here that a lot of these laws and organizations are unnecessary and unfair.
But that didn't happen. Racism - and sexism - are still rampant in America. There is still not equal pay for equal work; there is still not even equal opportunity. There is still a huge social divide - and a shameful amount of discrimination. Just as "Black Pride" came about to address a few centuries' worth of "Black Shame", the impulse behind something like BET or FUBU is not to create self-imposed segregation, but merely a modicum of visibility.
I would like to think that we are moving closer to a color-blind society, to a country in which race does not matter. But anyone who believes that is the society and the country in which we are currently living is sadly deluded. Indeed, I suspect it is getting worse. The level of resent in this thread alone is palpable - despite the "I haven't got a racist bone in my body" disclaimers.
Affirmative Action came about, not to create unfair advantages for minorities, but to level the playing field a bit - to provide the opportunity which had been denied to millions for generations. Why? Because a few wise legislators knew that, in a racist society (and make no mistake, America is a racist society), this would not happen voluntarily. AA has still not addressed inequality in this country and look how determined the opposition is to it even here.
That said, I feel that AA should operate as written in most legislation. That when two candidates are equally qualified, preference should be given to those candidates of whichever race will reflect the make-up of the local population. Granted, AA has been abused and has sometimes been applied to effect unfair advantages. And those wrongs should be righted. But, as Suzy has pointed out, those instances are very few and far between compared to the ongoing racist practices which operate at every level of our society.
One very good symptom of this is our prison population. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it is clearly worth repeating. Black suspects are more likely to be arrested than white suspects, blacks are more likely to have charges brought as a result of those arrests and for more serious crimes, blacks are more likely to be denied bail, blacks are more likely to be found guilty by judges and juries (on the basis of similar evidence), blacks are more likely to receive maximum sentences (and less likely to have sentences suspended), blacks are less likely to be paroled. Racial profiling is endemic to our justice system at all levels.
A couple of examples from Manning Marable’s Racism, Prisons, and the Future of Black America: the US Commission on Civil Rights found that while African Americans today constitute only 14% of all drug users nationally, they are 35% of all drug arrests, 55% of all drug convictions, and 75% of all prison admissions for drug offenses; according to a Justice Department study, while blacks under eighteen comprise 15% of their age group nationwide, they represent 26% of all those who are arrested - 44% of those detained in juvenile jails, 46% of all those tried in adult criminal courts, and 58% of all juveniles who are incarcerated in adult prisons. Black first-time offenders are nine times more likely to be sentenced to juvenile prison than whites convicted of the same crimes and, for drug offenses, forty-eight times more likely to be sentenced to juvenile prison than whites convicted of exactly the same crimes. Forty-eight. I'd call that racism. I would not call it "blacks committing more crimes".
In fact, I'd call the "blacks commit more crimes" argument racist. And that is borne out by our "liberal media", which is just as racist now as it has ever been - despite a marginally more colorful pool of talking heads. I detail a bit more of this in the link cited above and in a subsequent post in that same thread.
Well, I have got a racist bone in my body. I've got about two-hundred-and-six of them. Until each of us, regardless of race, recognizes that - and begins to deal with and actively work against it - this problem will never be solved.
The point is, we have a long, long way to go before approaching anything like racial equality in this country - never mind color-blindness. What little progress has been made has only been because it has been enforced by law. Without Affirmative Action, for example, it is highly unlikely that Titus would even have been able to come up with three CEOs. And without the partial lifting of Jim Crow laws and practices, there would be no tiny black caucus. Our inherent racism is so deeply ingrained that most of us hardly even notice it. On the rare occasions when it is brought to our attention, our most immediate response is usually denial - or worse, defensive reaction. "What about reverse racism?" Give me a break.
Look again at the list of National Black Associations and Organizations which Real Paladin so generously provided. And remind yourself that every other organization - every other business, every other business association, every other council and conference and network and fraternity and league - every other institute in the United States of America - is white. Racism remains the most serious, most challenging, and most destructive problem which our country faces.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Yes. As there should be.
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
No. The Abercrombie settlement (and they did settle) is proof of wrong-doing.
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Yes. But not enough of one to even begin to address the problem.
Part of the problem with this sort of debate is that a lot of people tend to argue as though America suddenly popped into existence yesterday - with no history of slavery, no history of oppression, no history of discrimination, no history of inequality - no history.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance. Until very recently in our history, every television network, every affiliate, every local station, every advertiser - was part of the White Entertainment Network. Every newspaper, every magazine, every radio station was part of the White Media. Every college was a "whites only" college. Advancement in every business was also "whites only" - even hiring, except for the most menial jobs, was "whites only".
If, following the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (or the executive orders of JFK and LBJ or Nixon's Department of Labor), there had been an overnight change in our business practice, our college admissions, our media, and our entertainment - hey, presto: instant equality - I would agree with many here that a lot of these laws and organizations are unnecessary and unfair.
But that didn't happen. Racism - and sexism - are still rampant in America. There is still not equal pay for equal work; there is still not even equal opportunity. There is still a huge social divide - and a shameful amount of discrimination. Just as "Black Pride" came about to address a few centuries' worth of "Black Shame", the impulse behind something like BET or FUBU is not to create self-imposed segregation, but merely a modicum of visibility.
I would like to think that we are moving closer to a color-blind society, to a country in which race does not matter. But anyone who believes that is the society and the country in which we are currently living is sadly deluded. Indeed, I suspect it is getting worse. The level of resent in this thread alone is palpable - despite the "I haven't got a racist bone in my body" disclaimers.
Affirmative Action came about, not to create unfair advantages for minorities, but to level the playing field a bit - to provide the opportunity which had been denied to millions for generations. Why? Because a few wise legislators knew that, in a racist society (and make no mistake, America is a racist society), this would not happen voluntarily. AA has still not addressed inequality in this country and look how determined the opposition is to it even here.
That said, I feel that AA should operate as written in most legislation. That when two candidates are equally qualified, preference should be given to those candidates of whichever race will reflect the make-up of the local population. Granted, AA has been abused and has sometimes been applied to effect unfair advantages. And those wrongs should be righted. But, as Suzy has pointed out, those instances are very few and far between compared to the ongoing racist practices which operate at every level of our society.
One very good symptom of this is our prison population. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it is clearly worth repeating. Black suspects are more likely to be arrested than white suspects, blacks are more likely to have charges brought as a result of those arrests and for more serious crimes, blacks are more likely to be denied bail, blacks are more likely to be found guilty by judges and juries (on the basis of similar evidence), blacks are more likely to receive maximum sentences (and less likely to have sentences suspended), blacks are less likely to be paroled. Racial profiling is endemic to our justice system at all levels.
A couple of examples from Manning Marable’s Racism, Prisons, and the Future of Black America: the US Commission on Civil Rights found that while African Americans today constitute only 14% of all drug users nationally, they are 35% of all drug arrests, 55% of all drug convictions, and 75% of all prison admissions for drug offenses; according to a Justice Department study, while blacks under eighteen comprise 15% of their age group nationwide, they represent 26% of all those who are arrested - 44% of those detained in juvenile jails, 46% of all those tried in adult criminal courts, and 58% of all juveniles who are incarcerated in adult prisons. Black first-time offenders are nine times more likely to be sentenced to juvenile prison than whites convicted of the same crimes and, for drug offenses, forty-eight times more likely to be sentenced to juvenile prison than whites convicted of exactly the same crimes. Forty-eight. I'd call that racism. I would not call it "blacks committing more crimes".
In fact, I'd call the "blacks commit more crimes" argument racist. And that is borne out by our "liberal media", which is just as racist now as it has ever been - despite a marginally more colorful pool of talking heads. I detail a bit more of this in the link cited above and in a subsequent post in that same thread.
Well, I have got a racist bone in my body. I've got about two-hundred-and-six of them. Until each of us, regardless of race, recognizes that - and begins to deal with and actively work against it - this problem will never be solved.
The point is, we have a long, long way to go before approaching anything like racial equality in this country - never mind color-blindness. What little progress has been made has only been because it has been enforced by law. Without Affirmative Action, for example, it is highly unlikely that Titus would even have been able to come up with three CEOs. And without the partial lifting of Jim Crow laws and practices, there would be no tiny black caucus. Our inherent racism is so deeply ingrained that most of us hardly even notice it. On the rare occasions when it is brought to our attention, our most immediate response is usually denial - or worse, defensive reaction. "What about reverse racism?" Give me a break.
Look again at the list of National Black Associations and Organizations which Real Paladin so generously provided. And remind yourself that every other organization - every other business, every other business association, every other council and conference and network and fraternity and league - every other institute in the United States of America - is white. Racism remains the most serious, most challenging, and most destructive problem which our country faces.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Yes. As there should be.
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
No. The Abercrombie settlement (and they did settle) is proof of wrong-doing.
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Yes. But not enough of one to even begin to address the problem.
QUOTE(Titus @ Nov 16 2004, 10:59 PM)
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
Here's a sure sign the election is over. We're back into the previously moribund Race Debate thread with another story about whiny minorities and white males feeling put upon due to their skin color.
Well, let's see if the standard components of these white male pity parties are in place.
* Minorities suing a large American corporation for alleged acts of racial discrimination? Check.
* Apples to Oranges comparisons? Check.
* Mandatory affirming statement from a black conservative that confirms the outrage of the white male is justified? Check.
Okay, let's just say for giggles those whiny blacks, Asians and Hispanics that filed suit against Abercrombie and Fitch is based soley on the company's failure to use people of color as models. I don't think a ruling one way or the other is going to set back or advance the cause of civil rights one inch. But to flip the script and allege that FUBU (For Us, By Us) and Black Entertainment Television are equally guilty of engaging in segregation because black people created these companies is
totally bogus.
First, though created by Robert Johnson, BET is owned by Viacom and nobody is confusing Sumner Redstone with a Chicago homie, so we'll dispose of that one quick, fast and in a hurry.
Go to the FUBU web site and check out the "Celebs" photo slide show. Gee...could that be?....why it sho naff is! It's hizzoner Rudolph Giuliani the former mayor of NYC. Now why would Rudy G. be chillin' with FUBU co-owner Daymond John? Could it be that Rudy G. (ConservPat's selection for the GOP nomination in 2008) hangs out with racial segregationists (or is he just happy to be the token white celebrity) ? Or maybe when Rudy G. wants to get his phreak on he represents New York in his FUBU gear. Tsk-tsk-tsk...
And why---oh WHY, do white males feel they have to drag poor Larry Elder out of his obscurity as if what he has to say means anything to anyone but his core audience. Which is pretty much confined to white males.
Larry Elder has no juice in the African-American diaspora. The brother may make the hearts of white conservatives all a'flutter, but he just ain't hitting with the grass roots bruthas and sistas. Sorry to be the one to break this sad truth to you, but please believe me when I tell you this is so.
Whenever I read threads like this with these "woe is me, I'm white and discriminated against," I just shake my head. I try to take the advice of Elvis Costello when he said, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. But it's laughing in the face of the gross exagerration which is the false dilemma of white male disenfranchisment isn't amusing. It's a little bit sad and a lot bit annoying. It's kind of like hearing a kid whining on Xmas Day when he's neck deep in toys and crap, "Is that ALL I GET?
Let's ignore the fact that white males still are the highest paid and most privileged group on the planet. Let's forget that white males only give up power and privilege when change is forced upon them. Let's ignore white males make up the vast majority of CEO's, politicians, billionaires and NASCAR drivers. Let's overlook that there isn't a horde of unqualified people of color taking jobs and opportunities away from white males (and for every Jayson Blair there's a lot more white males like Steven Glass or Mike Barnicle screwing up as bad or worse).
Did you guys happen to miss the point when Chris Rock said if Bill Gates woke up with Oprah Winfrey's money he'd commit suicide? Rock pointed out that black folks have money, but white folks have wealth and if you don't know the difference betwwen the two, I can't begin to explain it to you.
You know what's funny? I was remarking to someone about how far we've progressed in race in America when a qualified black woman in Condoleeza Rice can replace a qualified black man in Colin Powell as the face of American diplomacy and nobody makes a big deal about their race.
Then I read some of the posts here and realized I was perhaps a bit premature in that assessment.
Or maybe you think Colin and Condi got their jobs from affirmative action, too?
Wertz, you made some good points. America still suffers from racism. No doubt. All I'm saying is that what's good for the goose is what's good for the gander. If Abercrombie and Fitch are going to be sued, in part, because of the models they use, it should only be fair that a company like FUBU undergo the same scrutiny. But the sad fact is that it won't, and I don't expect them to at all.
As far as Affirmative Action goes, here's a site that contains many well written articles on why AA is not helping anyone.
Playing Favorites
I'd like to highlight this one...
Destroying Black Youth
As for your insight on Larry Elder, Nighttimer, I'm sorry he doesn't suit your taste. But it is crazy not to think that he doesn't have a point when he says that there is a "no fly zone" over companies like FUBU. If he's wrong, then why aren't there any suits against them?
You know, first off, I liked how you avoided the fact I used the phrase "models" and not "former mayors of New York". Way to circumvent my point. Second, let's get this straight. Never, and I mean never, as in not once, did I ever claim I was being oppressed, or that "white males" in general were. So I'd appriciate you not hijacking my thread and renaming it the "White Man's Burden" thread.
I'm not the one playing "woe is me". I'm not screaming "Look at me. I'm an oppressed white male! The horror! The Horror!". I just fail to see when it's ever ok that anyone is short-changed on account of their race.
As far as Affirmative Action goes, here's a site that contains many well written articles on why AA is not helping anyone.
Playing Favorites
I'd like to highlight this one...
Destroying Black Youth
As for your insight on Larry Elder, Nighttimer, I'm sorry he doesn't suit your taste. But it is crazy not to think that he doesn't have a point when he says that there is a "no fly zone" over companies like FUBU. If he's wrong, then why aren't there any suits against them?
QUOTE
Nighttimer
Whenever I read threads like this with these "woe is me, I'm white and discriminated against," I just shake my head. I try to take the advice of Elvis Costello when he said, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. But it's laughing in the face of the gross exagerration which is the false dilemma of white male disenfranchisment isn't amusing. It's a little bit sad and a lot bit annoying. It's kind of like hearing a kid whining on Xmas Day when he's neck deep in toys and crap, "Is that ALL I GET?
Whenever I read threads like this with these "woe is me, I'm white and discriminated against," I just shake my head. I try to take the advice of Elvis Costello when he said, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. But it's laughing in the face of the gross exagerration which is the false dilemma of white male disenfranchisment isn't amusing. It's a little bit sad and a lot bit annoying. It's kind of like hearing a kid whining on Xmas Day when he's neck deep in toys and crap, "Is that ALL I GET?
You know, first off, I liked how you avoided the fact I used the phrase "models" and not "former mayors of New York". Way to circumvent my point. Second, let's get this straight. Never, and I mean never, as in not once, did I ever claim I was being oppressed, or that "white males" in general were. So I'd appriciate you not hijacking my thread and renaming it the "White Man's Burden" thread.
I'm not the one playing "woe is me". I'm not screaming "Look at me. I'm an oppressed white male! The horror! The Horror!". I just fail to see when it's ever ok that anyone is short-changed on account of their race.
As for your insight on Larry Elder, Nighttimer, I'm sorry he doesn't suit your taste. But it is crazy not to think that he doesn't have a point when he says that there is a "no fly zone" over companies like FUBU. If he's wrong, then why aren't there any suits against them?
If you have the time and the money, Titus, I'm sure there is a attorney somewhere in America willing to take your case against FUBU. And to answer you question why aren't there any suits against FUBU, maybe they haven't broken any laws or engaged in a pattern of discriminatory hiring practices. It isn't a case of Larry Elder suiting my taste. I don't give him enough thought to consider whether he's worth liking or despising.
You know, first off, I liked how you avoided the fact I used the phrase "models" and not "former mayors of New York". Way to circumvent my point. Second, let's get this straight. Never, and I mean never, as in not once, did I ever claim I was being oppressed, or that "white males" in general were. So I'd appriciate you not hijacking my thread and renaming it the "White Man's Burden" thread.
I didn't "circumvent" your post, Titus. I responded to it as I thought appropriate. If you don't see it that way there's nothing I can do about it. Nor did I "hijack" your thread. Again, I responded to it as I thought appropriate. If you don't think this thread has a self-pitying tone to it, then I wonder if you understand the implied meanings within your own thread. I don't think white males are suffering any significant amount "reverse-racism." I repeat: the notion that white males suffer significant discrimination due to their skin color is a figment of their own imagination.
I'm not the one playing "woe is me". I'm not screaming "Look at me. I'm an oppressed white male! The horror! The Horror!". I just fail to see when it's [i]ever ok that anyone is short-changed on account of their race.[/I]
Life isn't fair. Everybody can't be on top. Racism sucks whether you've been victimized by it or you perpetuate it.
If you have the time and the money, Titus, I'm sure there is a attorney somewhere in America willing to take your case against FUBU. And to answer you question why aren't there any suits against FUBU, maybe they haven't broken any laws or engaged in a pattern of discriminatory hiring practices. It isn't a case of Larry Elder suiting my taste. I don't give him enough thought to consider whether he's worth liking or despising.
You know, first off, I liked how you avoided the fact I used the phrase "models" and not "former mayors of New York". Way to circumvent my point. Second, let's get this straight. Never, and I mean never, as in not once, did I ever claim I was being oppressed, or that "white males" in general were. So I'd appriciate you not hijacking my thread and renaming it the "White Man's Burden" thread.
I didn't "circumvent" your post, Titus. I responded to it as I thought appropriate. If you don't see it that way there's nothing I can do about it. Nor did I "hijack" your thread. Again, I responded to it as I thought appropriate. If you don't think this thread has a self-pitying tone to it, then I wonder if you understand the implied meanings within your own thread. I don't think white males are suffering any significant amount "reverse-racism." I repeat: the notion that white males suffer significant discrimination due to their skin color is a figment of their own imagination.
I'm not the one playing "woe is me". I'm not screaming "Look at me. I'm an oppressed white male! The horror! The Horror!". I just fail to see when it's [i]ever ok that anyone is short-changed on account of their race.[/I]
Life isn't fair. Everybody can't be on top. Racism sucks whether you've been victimized by it or you perpetuate it.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Nov 18 2004, 01:09 AM)
I repeat: the notion that white males suffer significant discrimination due to their skin color is a figment of their own imagination.
I guess either you are saying that the experiences I have had were not significant, or they were figments of my imagination.
When something calls into question my ability to feed and house myself without having to sponge off of my family or the state, I would call that significant. And as it effected my real self in the real world I don't see how it could be a figment of my imagination.
Racism exists. And it exists in everyone and can effect everyone. A white male can suffer from racism just as easily as black male, it is just not as prevalent. To suggest that it just doesn't happen is to turn a blind eye to what is wrong with Affirmative Action and other such programs. When we ignore the problems we don't look for the solutions.
I don't appreciate being characterized as Whiny, just because I dare to share some experiences I have dealt with in my life.
QUOTE(Wertz @ Nov 17 2004, 10:59 PM)
Part of the problem with this sort of debate is that a lot of people tend to argue as though America suddenly popped into existence yesterday - with no history of slavery, no history of oppression, no history of discrimination, no history of inequality - no history.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance.
As for AA being a way to repay the historical injustices, I was not there, I was not responsible for it, yet I pay the price. Where is the justice in that?
The problem I have with this issue is the politics. You are either for AA or you are Against it. There seems to be no political venue and no voice or podium for those who want to improve it and address the hypocracy of it without ending the benefits gained. Are there no alternatives to ending discriminating practices other then discriminating against different groups in favor of the one who suffered the most?
In my first post among other things I said:
QUOTE(OverlandSailor)
What is even worse in this situation is that around this time, many fire departments began reducing their academic and physical requirements to try to increase their numbers of minorities. To me that begins to bring safety of fire fighters and the public into question. And it is not even necessary. The millions NYC spent on "dumbing down" their tests could have be spent on a school and gym to bring people up to the requirements.
Why are alternative solutions like this not even considered in America? The problem for most poor people in America is the poor quality of the public schools which reduces opportunites. We need to address this, and in other topics on AD the issue has been taken up, but for now, isn't bringing people up to the standards a better idea for everyone then bringing the standards down?
What about solutions like Enterprise Zones? several states have created Enterprise Zones. A company that locates within this Zone and hires the majority of it's workers from within this Zone receive tax benefits that make it cheaper for them to operate their business and sale tax reductions with reduces their customers costs of buying from them. The Zone is usually one of the poorest areas of that city, county, etc.
Is there a racial double standard in business in America?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
I'll try to take these all of a piece, if I may, by making a series of observations.
I should also add that any such programs have to be time-limited, too. About another 20 or 30 years should be enough. Then all laws and business practices should become formally colour blind, and come down like a ton of bricks on any kind of race preferentiality in the public sphere (you're never going to be able to tell people who to spend their time with in private life and still call yourselves the Land of the Free with a straight face). After that time, if the minority communities haven't taken full advantage of them to put themselves into a position where they don't need them any more, I'd say that's their problem, and not anyone else's.
Of course, by that time, while American blacks may have used up their special status, someone else may find themselves in similar problems (my money is on Muslims), so there may always be a need for some kind of AA to protect one group or another.
Maybe one day, white men's paranoia may actually coincide with the rest of society being out to get them. On that day, they may have cause to be thankful for the foresight of legislators.
But (and here, I speak as a white man myself) we aren't in the habit of being thankful to anyone for anything. After all, our success is purely by dint of our own superior actions, and not other factors like race, family connections, or just plain old dumb luck. Right?
Do you believe the Abercrombie settlement was proof of that?
Is there a racial double-standard in this country in general?
I'll try to take these all of a piece, if I may, by making a series of observations.
- In America, nobody is colour-blind. If it were, just as an example, Denzel Washington and Julianne Moore could play a happily married couple in a movie about something other than them having to struggle against prejudice, or their world being torn apart by racial or cultural tensions, and without any mutterings (or louder noises) from anywhere about how one or both of them were traitors to their races/Orios/whatever. Race is to America as social class and accent is to the British - an immediate shorthand way to make assumptions about someone, and the main faultline in the society.
[aside]Actually, that's going out of fashion here, culture is becoming the faultline and battleground - we're becoming colour-blind, but only as long as people behave like us and intergrate with us. That may be why the Jews have always hard a hard time in Europe - they tend to isolate themselves and tend not to completely integrate. It may also be why we're having problems with our Muslim communities now; more widespread and potentially problematic than we ever had with, say, Caribbean blacks. [/aside] - Justice sometimes needs to be a see-saw, not a flat plank. If one group of people have been badly served for a long time, maybe the just thing to do is give them a head start for a long period of time, rather than just stop treating them badly and expect everything to be ok. In a society that isn't colour blind, maybe the long-term needs of justice are best served by showing active favouritism towards the people who used to get the fuzzy lollipop?
- While I'm sure that there are documented examples of some race legislation getting it wrong (and on the face of it the A&F case looks like it might be one of them), is that a reason to scrap the law? Of course not. (WARNING: Reductio ad absurdam coming) That would be like saying we had to make murder legal to avoid ever imprisoning an innocent person by mistake. The law is not infallible.
- Continuing the logic of point 3 on a smaller scale, is EVERY example of a white person losing out in a job race to a black person evidence the the black person was less qualified and must have been appointed to fill some kind of quota? Or because the recruiter is black too and hates white people? I'm sure it must be true some of the time, but how often, exactly, do ordinary Joes get to see the resume of other candidates for their aspired job? How, exactly, do they know that a succesful black candidate wasn't just a better person for the job? Surely the fact that this is cited as a reason quite so often by unsuccessful applicants has as much to do with their (possibly unconscious & mild) racism - that they reach for race as a reason before they consider other possible explanations? They are being prejudiced (literally, making a judgment before all the facts are in) based on race, aren't they? Isn't that what racism is?
It cuts both ways, of course - how does a black person who loses out know the white guy that got the job did so because he was white? Given history, his case for racist recruitment might be a lot stronger, but surely the first resort should be the assumption that the guy who got the job was the best qualified. (Of course, if the two are known to one another, there might be a different weight of factors at play.)
I should also add that any such programs have to be time-limited, too. About another 20 or 30 years should be enough. Then all laws and business practices should become formally colour blind, and come down like a ton of bricks on any kind of race preferentiality in the public sphere (you're never going to be able to tell people who to spend their time with in private life and still call yourselves the Land of the Free with a straight face). After that time, if the minority communities haven't taken full advantage of them to put themselves into a position where they don't need them any more, I'd say that's their problem, and not anyone else's.
Of course, by that time, while American blacks may have used up their special status, someone else may find themselves in similar problems (my money is on Muslims), so there may always be a need for some kind of AA to protect one group or another.
Maybe one day, white men's paranoia may actually coincide with the rest of society being out to get them. On that day, they may have cause to be thankful for the foresight of legislators.
But (and here, I speak as a white man myself) we aren't in the habit of being thankful to anyone for anything. After all, our success is purely by dint of our own superior actions, and not other factors like race, family connections, or just plain old dumb luck. Right?
QUOTE(overlandsailor @ Nov 18 2004, 03:13 AM)
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Nov 18 2004, 01:09 AM)
I repeat: the notion that white males suffer significant discrimination due to their skin color is a figment of their own imagination.
I guess either you are saying that the experiences I have had were not significant, or they were figments of my imagination.
When something calls into question my ability to feed and house myself without having to sponge off of my family or the state, I would call that significant. And as it effected my real self in the real world I don't see how it could be a figment of my imagination.
Racism exists. And it exists in everyone and can effect everyone. A white male can suffer from racism just as easily as black male, it is just not as prevalent. To suggest that it just doesn't happen is to turn a blind eye to what is wrong with Affirmative Action and other such programs. When we ignore the problems we don't look for the solutions.
Here's an interesting bit of data for you, from the APA
QUOTE
However, a 1995 analysis by the U.S. Department of Labor found that affirmative action programs do not lead to widespread reverse discrimination claims by Whites. In fact, a high proportion of such claims filed were found to lack merit. The analysis found that fewer than 100 out of 3,000 discrimination cases filed actually involved reverse discrimination, and in only six cases were such claims substantiated (Wilson, 1995).
QUOTE
I don't appreciate being characterized as Whiny, just because I dare to share some experiences I have dealt with in my life.
As for AA being a way to repay the historical injustices, I was not there, I was not responsible for it, yet I pay the price. Where is the justice in that?
QUOTE(Wertz @ Nov 17 2004, 10:59 PM)
Part of the problem with this sort of debate is that a lot of people tend to argue as though America suddenly popped into existence yesterday - with no history of slavery, no history of oppression, no history of discrimination, no history of inequality - no history.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance.
America does not exist in an historical void. And what many minorities - and some more conscionable non-minorities - are trying to do is redress the historical imbalance.
As for AA being a way to repay the historical injustices, I was not there, I was not responsible for it, yet I pay the price. Where is the justice in that?
Yet, you were also not there for the centuries of white affirmative action in this country, and yet you reap the benefits of that. You may think you do not, but that's because it's so pervasive and woven into the society, it is practically invisible - but it's there.
QUOTE
The problem I have with this issue is the politics. You are either for AA or you are Against it. There seems to be no political venue and no voice or podium for those who want to improve it and address the hypocracy of it without ending the benefits gained. Are there no alternatives to ending discriminating practices other then discriminating against different groups in favor of the one who suffered the most?
In my first post among other things I said:
Why are alternative solutions like this not even considered in America? The problem for most poor people in America is the poor quality of the public schools which reduces opportunites. We need to address this, and in other topics on AD the issue has been taken up, but for now, isn't bringing people up to the standards a better idea for everyone then bringing the standards down?
What about solutions like Enterprise Zones? several states have created Enterprise Zones. A company that locates within this Zone and hires the majority of it's workers from within this Zone receive tax benefits that make it cheaper for them to operate their business and sale tax reductions with reduces their customers costs of buying from them. The Zone is usually one of the poorest areas of that city, county, etc.
In my first post among other things I said:
QUOTE(OverlandSailor)
What is even worse in this situation is that around this time, many fire departments began reducing their academic and physical requirements to try to increase their numbers of minorities. To me that begins to bring safety of fire fighters and the public into question. And it is not even necessary. The millions NYC spent on "dumbing down" their tests could have be spent on a school and gym to bring people up to the requirements.
Why are alternative solutions like this not even considered in America? The problem for most poor people in America is the poor quality of the public schools which reduces opportunites. We need to address this, and in other topics on AD the issue has been taken up, but for now, isn't bringing people up to the standards a better idea for everyone then bringing the standards down?
What about solutions like Enterprise Zones? several states have created Enterprise Zones. A company that locates within this Zone and hires the majority of it's workers from within this Zone receive tax benefits that make it cheaper for them to operate their business and sale tax reductions with reduces their customers costs of buying from them. The Zone is usually one of the poorest areas of that city, county, etc.
I've got no problem with addressing affirmative action. In the realm of politics, however, I think the Democrats are afraid to touch it, out of fear that they will alienate minorities; as for the Republicans, I just can't see them supporting your first idea at all - and the second one sounds like one of those good ideas that Bush would propose, create, and then underfund.
But again, and this is common in debates in this forum, this is not about affirmative action.
And I would like to get us back on this lawsuit.
QUOTE(Titus)
Granted, I have no concrete statistics regarding the make-up of FUBU's staff, but is my "supposition" not a logical one to make? Sure, they probably have a handful of white or non-african americans working for them, but insignificant compared to the number of african americans who work there. I mean, let's be honest. The company intitals stand for "For Us, By Us", and I don't think they mean New Yorkers.
Personally, I could care less who they hire and who they don't. If it's illegal, it's illegal. It just better be illegal for EVERYONE.
Personally, I could care less who they hire and who they don't. If it's illegal, it's illegal. It just better be illegal for EVERYONE.
I think you misunderstood me. I agree with your statement. But I still think that your focus has been on a throwaway part of this case, the 'cultivating a white image.' The meat and potatoes of this case is the specific way in which these people were either fired, or denied jobs. My problem with bringing FUBU into this, is that, so far, they have not been accused of doing that - and therefor they are completely irrelevant. I also said that if FUBU does it, it will be just as wrong.
This may seem a bit hypocritical, but I don't think many people will have a problem with a company that sells merchandise geared to a somewhat narrow audience, happening to hire people who will put that merchandise in an appropriate light. The problem is really that someone is being told specifically that 'they already have enough Filipinos' working there. Now, if that is true, there I see the basis of a lawsuit.
Maybe one of our lawyers here can jump in, but it seems to me that in this case, the lawyers are throwing in the kitchen sink in an effort to bolster their case. The bit you pulled out struck me more as supporting evidence, rather than the main event.
QUOTE(Quark)
Yet, you were also not there for the centuries of white affirmative action in this country, and yet you reap the benefits of that. You may think you do not, but that's because it's so pervasive and woven into the society, it is practically invisible - but it's there.
So racism+racism=equality? The whole concept of this "levelling of the playing field is beyond me. Racism of all types against all races should be prosecuted, not justified.QUOTE(Nighttimer)
Whenever I read threads like this with these "woe is me, I'm white and discriminated against," I just shake my head. I try to take the advice of Elvis Costello when he said, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. But it's laughing in the face of the gross exagerration which is the false dilemma of white male disenfranchisment isn't amusing. It's a little bit sad and a lot bit annoying.
I understand where you're coming from Nighttimer, but I don't see anyone here saying that white males are being opressed. But I do see some almost casually dismissing the cases [albeit few] where whites are victims of racisms. I think that Titus, and myself are saying that racism should be handled equally under the law, racism against blacks and whites should both be looked down upon equally.CP
QUOTE(overlandsailor @ Nov 18 2004, 06:13 AM)
As for AA being a way to repay the historical injustices, I was not there, I was not responsible for it, yet I pay the price. Where is the justice in that?