I have run into this idea within my family, my co-workers and now it was the subject of a discussion on CSPAN last night (NO link I could find, but it was a town hall style discussion). People choosing to move to Canada because of the 2004 election results. For those on AD who reside in Canada, I have nothing against Canada, and that is not really the subject of my post. However, you do have my sympathies as these people will now be your problem.

My friend, who I am very close with, was offended when my response to his suggestion that he would do this was "Good Riddance".

On the show on CSPAN, a man responding to one of the northward bound also said "Good Riddance". The response he received was something along the lines of: "See, this is what America has come to, if you don't agree with those in power, then get out."

That is not what the man said, or meant, nor is it what I meant to my friend. Fortunately the man on CSPAN had a chance to respond. He said that he was not referring to the gentleman's politics when he said good riddance, but rather he was referring to the mans choice to run rather then stand and fight. This is also what I meant when I said the same to my friend.

Of course on the show, then man's explanation was ignored. He was referred to multiple times by those who are choosing to leave as an example of how America had become close minded and even hostile to the ideas of others. Their failure to understand where that gentleman was coming from seemed to me to be the most striking example of close-mindedness on the show IMHO.

When I said to my friend, "So you loose one game and your gonna pick up your toys and go home?" His response was, "Well actually I lost twice." As if this somehow makes a difference.

What is happening to America? Where has the backbone of the people gone, where has compromise gone, when did all the heros leave?

Question for Debate:

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

I for one say they are villains. By leaving America they abandon the fight for their principles and they make that fight even harder for those of character who stay and fight because they take their votes, time and money with them.

And to one and all of them I simply say: "Good riddance." American needs fighters not whiners. Leaving your country in the hands of your enemies is nothing short of surrender. Cowardice is NOT a virtue.

Ahh what a world we have today

full of Chicken Hawks and Chicken *edited to remove attempt to bypass profanity filter*
Good Riddance
Now if we could only arrange for an effective method of removal for the chicken hawks.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

Villains. Have to stand and fight. Plus the overdramatization of current events is a bit much.
Lets say the far far right actually tried to install some type of theocratic system.
Result: Unemployed Republicans.
Same answer the Democrats received when they overstepped during Clintons 1st term and got wacked.

More people should consider Centrism--actually trying for results based in reality than political sleight of hand. Maybe try and develop answers to problems we face today--not 1970.

Poor Canada--whatever have they done to us to deserve such a cruel fate. Well I guess they can just ship them over to Montreal

I thought my husband was going to die laughing when he read about that in our local paper!

Like he said, can you imagine how Canadian officials will react when they learn why that person wants to imigrate to Canada? To answer your question, yes, I think they are villains. They are totally useless to society. What makes them think Canada needs such slackers any less than America needs them?

Bonnie

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

OS, we seem to agree on so much but here I'll have to disagree with your "good riddance" position. Leaving the US is the only way some people believe they can make a difference. For instance by leaving the US, there is a net tax loss. They likely believe that their tax money is being ineffectually spent yet have no control over how it is being spent (attempts at line item tax forms have always failed). There may be a drain in intellectual capital as well as "established citizenry". They may also believe that their voices will be more effective from abroad rather than within the US. Finally, they may believe with some justification that social programs (like social security) will not be available for them when they need it.

Over the past 20 years or so, I have entertained moving and working abroad not because of the 2004 election but because it would be interesting to do so. I imagine that at least some of these people, who are moving, are citing the outcome of the election as their motivator, yet I find it unlikely that it is the only reason for them doing so.

So, here's how I see it. These people are neither heros nor villains. They are "pursuing their happiness" in the best way they see fit which is to leave the US. Similarly, there are many people "pursuing their happiness" by entering the US.

But, let's take the nationalistic fervor out of the equation. Let's pretend someone is leaving, say, Tennessee to move to, say, California. And what if the reasons they cite are because they don't like the way Tennessee is being governed. Would you hold a similar level of disgust and bitterness about their choice?

Have to agree with logophage here. I personally would not move to Canada because of last election results alone; however, if I felt that this country moves to the direction that seriously geopardizes my family's future, then why not? After all, wasn't that the reason why all of our ancestors came to this country? They chose not to stay in their native Ireland, Italy, Poland, Russia, or Germany and try to improve things there; they felt that by moving to United States they provide the better future for themselves and for their children and grandchildren.
These people are neither villains nor heroes; they chose the path for themselves which they feel is the best. The "Good Riddance" reaction is exactly the reaction that some in the "old countries" had for those who were leaving for United States.

Interesting point.

One difference here is that so many feel that the Bush administration is bad for the world, not just them. I doubt the same would be said about Tennessee.

I don't have bitterness towards these people, though I do hold them in contempt. And I would hold those who leave Tennessee for California based on political beliefs equally contemptible if, after leaving to continue to whine and moan about the state of politics in Tennessee. When they were there, they had the opportunity to do something about it. It might not be easy but neither would it be hopeless. Once they leave they abandon that fight and their fellows and they make the fight all the more difficult for their fellows because they reduce the resources the fight needs by leaving.

Good post overlandsailor. I share your sentiment. The point of America is to listen to eachother and to tolerate eachother's views. Stop criticizing everyone for disagreeing with your views. I mean, during the past 2004 Election, some Kerry-supporters made fun of the red states and the "evangelical christians" for voting for Bush. Its time to get some facts straight. If my number are correct, i believe that 22% of voters voted based on moral issues this election. What you didnt know is that the percentage is actually DOWN from '00 and down from '96. Furthermore, the humorous map of "United States of Canada" and "Jesusland" is ridiculous. Look at the County-by-County map. The ENTIRE country is red except for the urban centers. 8/10s of California, a majority of New York...all red...except for the cities. It's funny when they talk about seceding...It would be the "United CITIES of Canada."

Anyway, i dont think people should move away from this country because they dont get what they want. I mean when you look at the past four years...have things really been THAT bad? If people cut and run every time things werent going their way then this country never would have become the one it is today.

Just a side question to add a little food for thought: Do you think that if Kerry won the election, that there would be even chatter among some conservatives to go to Canada?

Villains, say there are 3,000,000 liberals in American [not to say that that's true, just work with me], one leaves, what does that accomplish for "the cause", nothing, and now there are 2,999,999 liberals in America. One less voice here in the States doesn't help the minority, it hurts them, if more stood and "fought" and spoke out, dissent would ring more clearly. Isn't that what dissenters want, to be heard?

CP

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

Ah, the "Good Riddance" attitude... I place it right up there along the same lines as the "We're Not Sorry People" and seeing as we hold ourselves to a higher standard here I can't really express my true thoughts about that without violating many of our rules.

I really don't understand why people won't just let others "grieve" for lack of a better word. Everyone is handling the election in different ways and this is yet another one. On the Left side of the aisle you have people that are talking about moving to another country, you have people who are walking around questioning their beliefs and talking of compromising them to win and you have those that have chosen to stand and fight for what they believe in as well as everything in between.

Now if we move over to the right side of the aisle we have equally bad and unhealthy behaviors such as those who are gloating and have been emboldened, those that still continue to deride those on the left and you have those that have accepted things are happy about the results and have moved on to live their lives as well as combinations of all of those.

Personally I don't think talk of moving to another country solves anything, but rather than saying "Good Riddance" to the person (even a complete stranger) I'd probably take the time to explain why it won't solve anything. But I guess that is just me.

There are no heroes or villans here in my opinion, only people struggling to deal with the election results. Those that have the "deal with it attitude" clearly don't understand the ideological war going on right now and the side that lost the battle isn't simply going to just accept their fate. As humans do with stressful situations we are all going to react differently. Some will rage, some will cry, some will flee, and some will stand and fight.

I have a Jewish friend of the family that fled Nazi Germany just in time to save himself and his family- he is now fleeing back to Germany - stating the same reasons as the reason he left Germany. His point was, though fascism in America is far more sophisticated and the US has more checks and balances than Germany, that it is just a matter of time before the right wing starts rounding up and killing liberals. I am grieving as well over the state of our nation, and thought his view point went too far, but this is a man that got it right once and survived!

I told him I thought it would never go that far, and he showed me his collection of "kill liberals" right wing bumper stickers.

He is ninety years old and is rooting up and leaving, and encouraging his family still in America to do the same.

Pretty scary to me.

I am trying my best to be living in Europe in the next five years, I will not be "re-upping" in April.

I have lost faith in the US, I am not scared of being rounded up yet, but I don't think the US will be a good place for my children to live as this trend towards fascism continues.

Corporations rule this country, and no amount of "fighting" is going to change that, and we will just keep continueing to lose more and more freedoms, all in the name of "security".

I really don't care if someone thinks me a "villian" or not- I just want a nice place to raise children, and the US is quickly losing that particular area real quick.

I would love it if all 56 million folks left at once, it would devestate the economy, and shock the other 59 million poeple into realizing that they need those 56 million folks to survive as well- something the 59 million seem to not care about right now.

Let's argue this in context then. Let's say that someone in California chooses to move to, say, Missouri because they don't like the way California is being governed and in particular how California's poor government affects the rest of the US. California has, of course, the largest economy of all the US States. How does your contempt stack up then?


I don't buy this position. It is possible that a person feels that she cannot "fight" (whatever that means) the situation by staying in the situation being miserable about it. It may be she believes the best thing she can do is leave the situation. Sometimes this is the best strategy. (And for those people who would like to jump on the previous statement with some sort of straw man attack: I am not advocating that the best strategy is to always leave the situation).

Finally, let me ask this. Do you always "stand and fight" for every injustice you perceive in your life? Or do you pick the battles that you think you can win?

CR, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I would like to state the the US is no where near fascism. However, your concerns are legitimate [up to the whole liberal genocide thing], but how will America right it's course if everyone who disagrees leaves? Nothing'll get done if more dissenters leave, then we'll just have less dissenters, which is counter-progressive, as I said. But I wouldn't worry about liberal genocide, or fascism in the US, people aren't going to take the Civil Liberty trampling that is running rampant in the country for much longer [hopefully], and they surely wouldn't tolerate full fledged "fascism".

CP

Interesting thoughts CJ, I really hadn't thought of those who took it so seriously that they are actually grieving. When you put it that way, it makes more sense for the extremist reaction from the Maureen Dowd wing of the liberal world.

I happened to vote primarily on security and economics, so if Kerry won and the House and Senate remained republican, I didn't think that it would cost me my life or my job in the near term, so that muted my reaction somewhat (aside from drunken gloating on Nov 2 ). No need to grieve, I just preferred one guy over the other.

The thing that irks some of us is when the 'I'm moving to France' goes along with the 'Americans are stupid - they voted for Bush' or Jesus-land arguments. Not saying that you are making those points, just that the two often coincide. That's when you may hear "don't let the door hit ya" or "good riddance." Similar to the grieving dems on one side, it's just fed up red staters on the other.

Hey, I've actually lived outside the US a few times, so I suppose I can't criticize here. (Bit of off-topic advice - Having myself enjoyed the privilege of socialized medicine, I wouldn't choose a destination based on that particular benefit...maybe look for warmer weather or something more tangible, vs. waiting 16 weeks for knee surgery)

Maybe it's a good thing if people move to Canada. We've had so many Canadians coming to America and striking it rich, if some Americans move up there, we can balance things out. Maybe some of the remaining Americans would actually know something of our northernly neighbour instead of the current befuddlement or simplistic "it's like America but nicer" sort of view. Canada is a great country, with an fascinating culture, wonderful diversity and a democratic government. Might be a nice place to live for a while...

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?
I think "hero" and "villain" are both inappropriate. I don't believe that the person would be either. I also believe it is more complex than just because of election results. It's has more to do with the mammoth shift in attitude from a country known for its freedoms to a country known for its thuggishness and narrow-mindedness.

Cube Jockey put it best that everyone deals with situations in their own way. I sympathize with those Americans who feel so uncomfortable now in their own country, they are moving out of it. CruisingRam's story about his friend is chilling - here is a man who lived through one of the most horrific "governments" ever, lived to tell the tale, and now HE sees the same thing happening here!! Not only that, he is convinced enought to pack up at 90 and move! I have to say I give this man far more credence than I do the pundits and Bush-praisers.

Call me whatever the heck you want, if a draft happens in this country, my nephew and I are going to Canada, or another SANE nation.

Now if 56 million left at once - that would be a powerful statement.

So, no, I do not say good riddance to those who leave, rather I wish them good luck.

Ya think? Look at the thread in Alabama- they are actually voting for segregation! I think folks that didn't grow up in the religious right like I did don't understand how very much like the Taliban those groups are- and they are gaining power.

Look at the Republican convention- they trotted out Guliani and Arnold- but what kind of power do these guys have? Basically none- they were simply there to keep the attention off the real power poeple in the repub party- the Delay and Archer types.

Delay and Archer have said many times they wish the Mosque in Jerusalem to be destroyed so the Temple can be rebuilt to fulfill prophecy.

Thre is not a day goes by that I don't hear a conservative talking about "killing all fags" to stop the "assault on marriage"- or see a "kill all liberals" bumper sticker- oh, it is low key now, but it is steadily getting worse.

Check out a not-so civilised conservative board some time- the violence is right there!

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

I think anyone who leaves because of the 2004 election, without a good reason, ie family, job, etc........is a coward or a career 'activist' who finally put their money where their mouth is. Oh Baldwin and Altman......Where are you????

People on other boards try equate the election with Kristallnacht. I say if the tinfoil fits, then wear it proudly and plaster a maple leaf on it while your at it.


CR, take a walk on the dark side in liberal boards.........lovely references to Hitler, brownshirts and fascists...all from the party that claims diversity and tolerance.

BTW, does your post have anything to do with the subject at hand????

These prospective emigres to the great white north can take their hate, pack their bags and get for all I care. If their not going to stay and fight for what they believe in, I have no sorrow for them.

I am on subject here- I believe they are not villians- but realize America is no longer the land of the free, and is not a very good place to start and raise a family.

That is the point- and I think everyone that ACTUALLY moves will be thinking on that vien- it takes ALOT to immigrate to another country- a REAL sacrifice- you don't just pull up and leave everything you have ever known for no reason. IT is one of the most difficult things you will ever do in your life- it is like divorce- it is painful, financially draining, and downright agonizing- but it has to be done to make your life better.

These poeple are leaving, not because of some petty get-even-with Bush motive- but because they genuinely believe thier quality of life will be harmed by the direction the country has taken.

There are so many example like the Alabama segregation issue that point to this countries far right swing. The loss of civil liberties that seem to be celebrated by the right instead of vilified like in the old days.

Now, if you can just pick up and leave with no hardship, perhaps you are just being a big wus, because you really have nothing to lose- but if you, like I, see this as a dangrous trend that more than half the country has embraced, I don't want my children around those types of folks.

I do frequent the liberal boards- I have yet to see lot's of posts talking about killing conservatives.

Well, since you're on topic, would you care to source some of your claims, to keep things more fact-based.


If you would kindly source this, would be appreciated.


I just googled "kill all liberals" + "sticker" and the only page hit is on americasdebate.com by one CrusingRam.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?



I don't really see them as either. Number one, I doubt seriously there will really be a significant number of people who do this, despite the "threat". It's more of an emotional reaction than anything else I think. For those who are serious though, I can only be helpful and tell them to face the rising sun, then turn to the left and be careful not to let the door hit you on the way out.

Seems some of the right wing sites have been pulling thier violent bumper stickers- I logged on to this site last year:

http://www.irregulartimes.com/rightwingstuffviolence.html

then actually went to rightwingstuff and saw the bumper stickers for my self

now they seem not to be there- hmmm

I will try to find the newsweek article with Delay's quotes on Jerusalem- he is a fundamentalist Baptist- and the temple in Jerusualem is one of the most important aspects of the faith.

I am not making that argument, but again you have to realize that this is largely an emotional reaction and is not constructive. Is it any worse than the idiots that started up the "freedom fries" nonsense?

The thing I think a lot of people fail (to this day) to realize is how much of a raw and open wound this election still is for about 49% of the country. Sure there are some that have moved on but there are many that are wondering how America could vote for someone responsible for so many scandals and failures. They want America to be great but see the government trying to turn the clock back on so many issues. I don't want to get into a specific discussion there, but that is the way a lot of people feel.

The only possible thing I can think of in recent history to compare this too is how many Republicans felt about Clinton. Now I don't know what anyone here felt about him because AD wasn't around then and I'm not going to assume anything either based on political tags next to names. But, there was a very real hatred of Clinton by many Republicans in the 90's and I think that 2004 combined with what happened in 2000 and the years in between is at least as bad if not worse for those on the left side of the aisle.

During that time there were those that were just angry and expressed that anger in a variety of ways and there were those that decided to take a stand and do something about it. A lot of the groups and ideas that were formed in those days are present today and are influencing the public discourse.

Were the Republicans that were railing against Clinton villans to their cause? No they weren't, they were just expressing their anger. Eventually they dealt with their emotions and got back to work or they didn't and gave up. Who cares?

In 2004 we have exactly the same situation and probably worse, which is why I find this whole topic rather funny.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?


I think the emphasis from many of the responses here as been to the wrong part of the question..it's not asking whether these people are heroes or villians in general, but to their own cause. I fail to see how they're helping their cause in any way. The more that leave, the more likely the very policies they hold in such disdain are likely to occur. Essentially, they're running away...not exactly the stuff of hero stories (Monty Python excepted). I won't go the villian route, either...to each his own. But, if they're leaving for political reasons, they're clearly placing their own interests ahead of any greater cause. Which is certainly allowable, this country was built on that concept. But I wouldn't put much credence into anyone trying to assign a greater purpose to it, either.



Interesting point, which helps me to make mine...why is it only the right that is viewed as intolerant in these situations? Where is the spirit of compromise and willingness to work together in the 56 million? How intolerant are you when you actually flee the country because of your inability to meld with the others? Can you see how such a comment could be easily used to show a lack of patriotism (preference for destroying the country over working together to improve things ? As you state, CR, leaving the country is not an easy task..it involves completely uprooting your life. Those that are leaving are inherently viewing that task as preferable to tolerating the views of the opposing party. What's more, by leaving, they are certainly making it more likely that those views that they are so opposed to become more prevalent--thereby indicating a high degree of apathy for those they leave behind, don't you think? I hope they're not fooling themselves into thinking they'll effect the economy..first, their numbers aren't great enough, and second, they're clearly not paying attention to the outsourcing issue and the huge lists of those seeking immigration here.

Now, I am sure there will be those who latch onto the 'Good Riddance' phrase as an example of the very intolerance that they are fleeing...as your old friend seems to feel. I don't think we're anywhere near 'liberal genocide...but belief in the idea shows a lot about the stereotypical views many on the left hold about those on the right, which is quite telling, I think. Also, as actions such as these bear out, liberal suicide is potentially not that far off. <insert theme from Mash>...are those really the changes those on the left would desire? No, I don't think those leaving are either villians or heroes, nor do I wish them any ill will, and I am sorry they feel so disenfranchised...but if they're so intolerant of my ideas and beliefs that they won't even stay and have a dialogue...then, by all means, don't let the door hit them on the way out.

The problem Hobbes is that in reality, there very likely aren't that many people that are actually moving to Canada or Europe or somewhere else outside the United States. There very likely are quite a few people talking about it and threatening to move which isn't even close to the same thing.

For most people it is an emotional expression of their anger, disgust, frustration, etc and not a serious proposition.

When someone cuts you off on the freeway, don't you use all kinds of four letter words and sometimes if you have a bad enough day talk about killing them? For 99.9% of the population those words are an emotional outlet and not serious promises.

Once these people calm down they will realize that the worst thing they could do to further their ideals is to leave the country. Then they'd be in another country still angry about what is going on but completely powerless to do anything about it. Most people realize this once the anger passes.

Point taken about there being equally obnoxious people on the right. As for explaining the position. I did when I told it to my friend, and the guy on CSPAN did when he said it to the people representing those leaving or who have left. However, frequently, those hearing it, don't listen. They paint the "Don't like the way it is then leave" label over it. The point most I know who hold this view as well as all of those stating it here on AD seems to be, if you won't fight for what you believe then you might as well leave, you do no one any good staying here.

I think I understand the ideological war better then most because I find myself fighting against BOTH sides nearly daily. And no one says people have to "just deal with it" I'm certainly not. I just have no stomach for those that would choose to pick up their toys and run to another country rather then sharpen their arguments and gear up to fight again.




First, lets clear up the "Villain" concept for a second. The question for debate was:

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

NOT are they heros or villains (period), but are they heros or villains to there own ideological causes.

Second, giving up freedoms in the name of security is nothing new. We say we give them up in the name of security when the conservatives are in charge, but we gave then up in the name of safety when the liberals ran the show.

THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT OUR LIBERTIES FROM BOTH SIDES IS TO FIGHT FOR THEM

The problem we have today is that both sides have so successfully polarized the electorate that no one will vote out a bad representative from their side of the aisle because they fear the end of the world or some such nonsense if the put someone from the other side in their place.

As for corporations ruling the country. It is worse then that. Money rules the country, it has been that way throughout history. The grass roots movements are effective because they can pool together the money needed to fight the wealthy. Also, if you think wealth doesn't rule every other nation on the planet then you really are kidding yourself.

If your looking to leave rather then fight CR, I don't think your a Villain, I think your a defeatist who choose to hang up his sword rather then risk another battle. The fight to take America back for the people doesn't need that attitude, so again, no offense but, good riddance. It's a shame though, you were good at it when you fought the fight.




I have yet to give up the fight for something as important as the future of my country. I am a very principled person. I fight day in and day out against both sides, if anyone should have a defeatist attitude it's me. Now, I did get a parking ticket once that I didn't deserve, and I did pay it rather then fight it. But that was because the cost of the ticket was about 1/4 of what I would have lost in pay if I took the day off to fight it.



Absolutely. If, (as so many on the left side of the aisle seem to believe) America, run by Conservatives, is dangerous to the entire world then what good will going to another country accomplish? Eventually, the devastation wreaked by Conservatives will come to your new shores. Better to fight till the death for what is right then run for it, when it will eventually find and destroy you anyway.

When I taught basic damage control on an Ammunition ship in the US Navy I started each new group like this:

"I have heard several of you mention how if a fire or something really bad happened you would run for it as fast as you can. Putting aside the idea that we could be at sea at the time let me tell you the facts."

If a Nitro Class ship like the USS Suribachi blew up, full complement it would be a 21 mile blast radius. Now, the longest cook off time of anything carried by this ship is 8 minutes at a theoretical 600 degrees. There is no such thing as a 600 degree fire in a metal box. Practically, you're looking at more like 1000 degrees which reduces your longest cook off time to approximately 4 minutes.

I don't care if you have a fueled up, pre-flighted lear jet sitting on the pier, you're not getting out of 21 miles in 4 minutes or less. You'd be better off throwing your body on the fire. Keep in mind people, our at sea fire party is trained to be geared up and putting agents on a fire in 2 minutes or less.

That is my mind set. Fight for what I want, need or feel is right. Fight regardless of odds or chances of success. Never give up, never surrender, never stop. That is not to say that one should abandon compromise. Sometimes, progress can only happen through baby steps. I would not vote against the legalization of Marijuana just because I personally feel the war on drugs is a failure, a violation of civil liberties, and that all drugs should be legalized. I'll take what I can get and keep fighting for the rest.

Those that choose to run from the fight rather then face it are useless when it comes to solving the problem.



Again, are they villains to there cause? Not are they villains in general.

And I too believe my quality of life is harmed by the direction the country has taken. I choose fight over flight. I do not deny someone's right to choose to abandon their cause and their country. And I do not give up my right to condemn them for exercising it.

I have MANY conservative friends, I have yet to hear one say anything close to "kill all the liberals" or "kill all the gays".

There are extremist nuts on both sides, People who bomb abortion clinics and people who bomb animal research labs. Are we really going to start judging the viability of each side but the nut cases that choose to join their cause?



It is those that decided to take a stand and do something about it and succeeded that IMHO should be what those that lost this time around should be looking at and trying to emulate.


No one is suggesting anyone who is speaking out is a villain to their cause. How many of those Republicans do you remember hearing say that they were going to leave the country instead of fight on?




I sincerely hope you are right CJ. Because the more of these people leave, the more of a majority the opposite side has, and the more difficult it becomes for us to succeed in the fight for change.

No, there are no pefect places- we would call that heaven, right? LOL

I do think that there are now BETTER places to live- away from a very violent society, without a constant barrage of "bling bling" being the key to quaility of life.

I think this is the key- yes, we have lot's of folks emigrating here- mostly for economic reasons, I would say the lions share, without looking it up, come from Mexico looking for jobs.

Germany, last I read, had the highest rate of immigration, so much it had to modify it's constitution to stem it. I think this is more for security AND economic reasons due to the instability in the former Eastern bloc nations.

I have been scouting European job possibilities since the Bush 2000 debacle- and I like what I see- the main problem is economic for me at this time- had I grown up in Europe I would have the same advantages that growing up in the US has given me here.

I definately have lost faith in my country, and were I single, perhaps I would stay and fight, but I am not going to put my children into that mix- I choose to remove them from it.

Some major wathershed event will have to happen to jolt us back to the center, and away from Corporatism, and I choose not to subject my children to that upheaval.

Unemployment rates in Europe are at 9% for the Euro-zone as a whole, and around 10% in Germany and France. "Same advantages" might not be exactly right when it comes to job possibilities, but good luck!! If it's purely economic, head for the UK or Eire.

edited to add - Remember that just because they aren't 'conservatives' you still find skinheads, racists, anti-semites and all other sorts in Europe - even islamic extremists, sadly. But they do get 'free' health care!

And I doubt very much that those "better" places got that way by having dissenters move to somewhere else. Those "better" places had people who stayed and fought for the freedom, liberties, etc. that you want. So if America is going to become one of those "better" places, people who want liberties and freedom are going to have to stick it out and fight for those freedoms, that's what progressivism is. Progression over time will only take place if those who want it take the time to fight for it, and that won't happen if they move. If your concern is really about America [which I don't doubt] and how it's going to Hell in a pooper scooper then leaving doesn't solve anything.

What do you mean by "upheaval", and "mix", it sounds like you're expecting some kind of violence or traumatic experience, can you elaborate on that.


CP

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

Well, 99% of those who rant and rave and SAY they are moving to Canada, won't.
Those who do are not hero or villain, but idiot sounds about right.
If a cause is worth fighting for, why desert the battlefield and leave your fellow soldiers to fight alone? It begs the question, where is the commitment? No deserter has ever been called a hero.

I know nobody who says they want to leave. Could it be that I travel in saner circles? Really, I heard nothing of the sort from anybody I know. And I know some Dems who were very upset when Bush won 4 years ago, but they still live here. Could it be that despite our problems here, the USA is still better than every other place? Not that I am putting down our cousins of the north, but it is kinda COLD up there most of the year.

CR, get real about this. George the second has very little real power to bring about the things you fear, and what power he has isn't enough to do it in only 4 more years. The pendulum is always swinging, and the Dems will be in charge again someday, just as soon as they get their act together.

The sky is NOT falling.

Well, as one of those contemptible people who has previously emigrated, largely for political reasons (as a result of the Reagan administration), I would have to say that I don't see myself as a villain to my cause. My cause then, as it is now, was to live in liberty and pursue happiness - for myself and my loved ones. And that comes before any plot of land.

One of the problems with this debate is that it seems many people still feel that the United States of America is the greatest country on earth and simply cannot comprehend someone wishing to abandon it's much-touted freedoms - and that the US of A is "the cause". Well, the United States is not the greatest country on earth. Sure, it's among the top ten or twenty in a number of respects, but apart from its sadly abused and largely neglected Constitution, America is really nothing special compared to a dozen or so other plots of land.

Don't get me wrong: I love this country and believe that the ideals on which it was founded are equal to none. The leadership of this country, however, spits on those ideals, urinates on those freedoms, and defacates on that Constitution - on a daily basis. When I saw this happening twenty-odd years ago, I was depressed, angered, and frightened. Now that I see it happening again - and with the support of a majority of its citizens - I am depressed, angered, frightened, and bereft of Hope.

In 1980, my partner and I asked ourselves if this was the country in which we wanted to live our lives - the country in which we even could live our lives. At that time, we saw a rise in corporatism which can only be described as fascist. We saw civil liberties and civil rights under threat. We saw the unfair promotion and advancement of the privileged and the unjust, uncaring marginalization of the poor. We saw a greater divide emerging in this country than had been observable since the Civil War. And we saw a frightening rise in the political effectiveness of Christian fundamentalism, which we viewed as both blasphemous and anti-American. As gay men, we also saw it as a very real threat to our well-being, and even our liberty.

We decided to leave the country because it was no longer the America which we knew and loved - and we felt powerless to effect any real change, especially after "Iron Man" Reagan was deified by surviving an assassination attempt. We asked ourselves if there were countries in the world which lived up to our ideals - and those of America's founders. And we found that there were - and America was not one of them.

So we moved to Ireland - where we knew no one, had no place to live, no jobs, no prospects, and about $2000 in cash. There, we were able to live openly as a gay couple (while gay men and lesbians in America were becoming pariahs). We were able to find work and not only work hard ourselves, but create work for others (while in America we would have been struggling in jobs which we hated). We were able to form a corporation which received funding to launch a number of civic events and found a theatre company (while such funding was being decimated in the US). We were able to afford dental and medical care (while in America, we couldn't even afford health insurance). We were able to identify ourselves as socialists without derision or fear of being beaten up and could actually vote for candidates who represented our beliefs - and sometimes see them win (while in America we would only have had the option of the corporatist candidate or the somewhat less corporatist candidate). We were able to publish our thoughts and ideas and earn income from them (while in the US we would quite possibly have got ourselves arrested for sedition). We were able to pay taxes and see the results in a good education system, good public transport, good job training programs, good healthcare, a good economy, good laws, and a just justice system (while everything in the US was going to hell). We were able to do volunteer work with AIDS organizations and drug rehab centers (while the US was throwing millions of dollars at a "war on drugs" which did nothing to help a single addict and totally ignoring the AIDS epidemic because of the Reagan government's utter contempt for those who were "not like us"). We were able to live in a country which was militarily neutral and whose armed forces were only ever used for peace-keeping (while the US was bloodying its hands daily in the third world, notably Latin America, in order to bolster violent dictatorships and support terrorist states which were friendly to US business interests). We were able to foster two sons and raise a family (while in America we would probably have been jailed as pedophiles for taking in two teenage boys). We were able to have a good life, free from fear. We would have had none of that in the United States.

Had we stayed in America, we would probably both be dead now. If not, we might well be in prison or living in destitution. We would certainly not have a family - and possibly not each other. Sure, not all of the fears we had in 1980 were realized. There were no internment camps by the end of the Reagan years - though, to a large extent, there didn't need to be: enough people were allowed to die through poverty and neglect to have counted, anywhere else, as genocide.

But, after four years of George H.W. Bush, enough people finally started coming to their senses and saw how far the country had slipped over the preceding decades. We saw Clinton, for all his faults, as something of a saviour of the American Dream. When he was re-elected, we finally thought America might be turning around and was, perhaps, back on the progressive road it had been following since its inception. We thought it was safe to come home.

I guess that just shows how wrong one can be.

Today, we are faced with all the horrors which were confronting the country in 1980 - though they are worse by an order of magnitude. The Bush administration is the most autocratic and fascistic government this country has ever known. The amoral "religious" fundamentalists are a more powerful and coddled lobby than ever. Racism and homophobia are rampant and more insidious than ever. America has become even more of a global vigilante - and for the greediest, most power-hungry reasons imaginable. The rich are richer, the poor poorer - and minorities more disenfranchised than they have been in fifty years. Self-evident rights are being taken away - and America's freedoms and ideals, as well as her Constitution, are under graver threat than ever before in our history.

My partner and I are again facing the prospect of leaving the country. Not because we are bitter over a lost election. Not because we are upset by the imbalance in our branches of government (which, with each judicial nomination and Cabinet replacement, are becoming more imbalanced). Not because we think the oppostion is "stupid". Not because of a personal dislike for President Bush. But because we feel powerless - and are terrified.

A recent survey found that Ireland has won the world contest for best quality of life, while the US has slipped to thirteenth place. Given the option, do we really want to live in a thirteenth-rate country?

Part of me is all for staying and fighting, but those who hate me most are heavily armed and extremely dangerous - I wouldn't stand much of a chance. My partner is leaning toward making a better life elsewhere - again. We did what we could during the six years since we returned to the nation of our birth, we tried to make a difference - we contributed, we campaigned, we debated, we volunteered, we broadcast, we published, we voted. Perhaps we can do better from afar. If nothing else, we'd enjoy more freedom - and we'd be safer. And that, my friends, is a fact. If America can no longer guarantee me life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (and it can't), then what the hell am I doing here?

If "the cause" is freedom, I can't consider those who choose to leave this God-forsaken country "heroes", but neither can I think of them as "villains". Cowards? Maybe - if that's what one calls self-preservation these days. Looking after one's own interests? If that's how one views those who seek freedom where they are most likely to find it. The problem here - my problem - is that I no longer have much of a stock of Hope. I have lost faith in this country - and, to a large degree, I do not trust my fellow citizens. I certainly don't trust their judgment. There has been talk here of "the future of the country". Frankly, I don't see this country as having much of a future - not any more.

One of our sons and his American wife are thinking of moving from Ireland to the US. I have strongly advised against it. There is nothing here for them. They are blessed to be living in a country where opportunity is plentiful, where education is good, where healthcare is affordable, where crime is practically non-existent, and where people demonstrate their Christianity by loving their neighbors, not by killing them. There is nothing they can have in the US that they can't get in greater abundance where they are.

This is not a question of "compromise" or "willingness to work together" or an "inability to meld" as Hobbes suggests. Am I to "tolerate the views" of those who feel that I should have no rights, that I am less than human, that America would be a better place were I dead? One can't "compromise" with one's executioner - thanks for the offer, though. I'm sure that there were many who said of the Jews who fled Germany in the late thirties, "Good riddance." And I'm sure they meant what they said.

As we've just celebrated Thanksgiving, maybe it's appropriate to close this with a few lines from William S. Burroughs' Thanksgiving Prayer, written at the height of the Reagan era:

Thanks for a continent to despoil and poison...

Thanks for the American Dream - to vulgarize and to falsify until the bare lies shine through...

Thanks for the KKK...

Thanks for "Kill A Queer For Christ" stickers...

Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business...

Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams.

There was a popular bumper sticker during the Vietnam War: America - Love It or Leave It. That works for me. And I cannot love an America whose populace would elect a government intent on the destruction of everything the America I once loved once stood for, a government which thrives on division, intolerance, and hatred. I'm beginning to think that Americans don't deserve freedom - the majority either takes it wholly for granted or doesn't give a damn. Well, other nations do give a damn. And I'm beginning to think that the real fight is abroad: the fight against American hegemony as envisioned by the fascistic autocrats who now control the government of this once-great land.

Will I stay and fight it out? At this point, I really don't know. But if I do stay, I'm buying a gun - several guns. And lots of ammunition. Because that, ladies and gentlemen, is what this country is coming to. I can "enter into dialogue" with most people here. I cannot enter into dialogue with the anonymous person who posted in my LiveJournal that I, personally, deserve "a bullet in the head".

If I decide to join my family in Ireland - if I decide to live in freedom and peace rather than fight my countrymen for the freedom and peace they are so willingly throwing away - I won't let the door hit me on my way out. And you can call me whatever you like.

I'll be honest, I didn't want to sound as a liberal-bashing, conservative bully, but I agree with the "don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya" crowd. I was utterly shocked by the "greif" Kerry supporters were languishing through. Like they had suffered some inhumane tragedy at the hands of evil-doers.

To me, those that want to use the results of this past election as motivation to leave, I say this...

Buh-bye.

To quote Mike Douglas from the movie, The American President, "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to want it bad, because it's going to put up a fight."

That's why I feel the way I do. If you're gonna to take your ball home because you're losing the game up to this point, fine. Go home. Send us a postcard from Ottawa or Toronto, or Calgary, cause I don't play with whiners.

And whether you be a "red-stater" or a "blue-stater", liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, there is one common bond we all share as Americans....

Americans love to fight.

General George Patton was dead on when he said "All real Americans love the sting of battle". We love to fight, argue, debate and we love it when we win and hate it when we lose. But in the end, we all *should* be able to have a cold one after the match, congradulate eatchother, and talk about the future.

But if it's something I can't stand are sore losers and whiners.

I understand that there are those with serious concerns for the state of affairs in this country. Hell, I have concerns. Does that mean I'm gonna tuck tail and run north if Bush or the GOP does something I don't like? Hell no. Over the next four years I plan to become more and more politicaly active. That means voicing my dissent on US trade policy, proposed drilling in ANWR, gay marriage, and illegal immigration.

Hell, I already have two strikes living in California. I'm a conservative and a Republican. I live in a state where it would take a Grey Davis size fiasco to eject Diane Feinstein or Barbara Boxer from the US Senate, and a miracle for California to be a "red state". But do I choose to not vote? Do I choose to run to Arizona where I can bask in the conservative sun without being labeled as an "idiot" for espousing my beliefs by a twenty-something college student who loves to quote Chomsky?

No. I vote, knowing full well that unless something dramatic begins, Cali is gonna be blue for a while. But I stay. I stay and fight the good fight, so to speak.

In my opinion, you can wuss out and run off, leaving your fellow Americans to fight, or you can make like some people and put together a strategy. Take BuyBlue.org for example. I talked with CJ, who had real concerns over the direction he thought this country was heading. Do I agree with his assertions? Not all the time, but he kicked off the proverbial dust and decided to... *gasp* fight back in his own way. And I support his site wholeheartedly because I love a good fight. I love knowing that I have a battle that's going to be waged in the future by people who won't lament over their sorrows when their candidates or initatives lose. Bring it on!

I love being able to engage in heated, and sometimes fervent, debate with my ideological opposite. I love protests, dissent, and passionate efforts to make change.

And these people that want to go to Canada, or where ever else obviously don't want that.

Oh, and another question to be asked is whether or not these people are so disgusted or feel so hopeless as to whether or not they would renounce American citizenship.

Oh, but I doubt that. Why give it all up when you can let others fight for you?

A final thought. My grandmother lived in WWII Germany. I didn't inquire about her politics, but knew in the past her and my Grandfather were Democrats. Now I've never heard her make a comparision like others have, but I haven't seen anyone get kidnapped and beat for their views. I haven't seen any newspapers get shut down. I haven't seen train cars filled with "liberals" heading to some "undisclosed location", as my Grandmother saw herself with what turned out to be Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and the mentally disabled.

As far as I am concerned, we're nowhere near Nazi Germany. Perhaps you can go to France where liberalism is touted.... Just ignore the anti-Semitism and ignorant laws for religious clothing.

I'm not sure how old some of these people are that are contemplating moving to Canada, but maybe I'm just not feeling their pain. I guess when you're black and conscious and American you learn to hope for victory but prepare for defeat.

Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.

--- James A. Baldwin

There will always be a few who find defeat unbearable and are unable to summon either the courage or will to stand in the fire and defend what they hold dear. They concede before even the first blow is thrown.

I'm not going anywhere. I like it here. My people were brought here as slaves and I'm not going back to Africa or up to Canada or anywhere. I'm not cutting and I'm not running. I'm not going to give my opponents the satisfaction of watching me go out like a punk.

My intention is to stay right here and read, write, react, resist and raise hell when necessary. Staying around, building on the momentum and energy of 2004 and turning it into something good, viable and durable is the best revenge.

An election was held on November 2nd. Somebody won and somebody lost. That's all. Nobody died. I never for a moment based whether or not I could go on living on the fickle fortunes of one wealthy white man of privilege versus another wealthy white man of privilege. No matter who won on Tuesday I still had to go to work on Wednesday. That wasn't going to change whether John Kerry won or lost. I can't afford the luxury of placing all my hopes on a politician. Life's too short to invest that much faith in any one man.

The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in.

--- James A. Baldwin

America is not the "cause" I am referring to. The "cause" am am referring to is people's political ideology. Be it issue based as with Abortion, Fair Trade, Gay Marriage, etc. Or party based as with the Democrats, the Greens or one of the many parties that carry the name socialist.

If one leaves, rather then continues the fight for the ideology and solutions they feel is right then they simply increase the majority status of the opposition.



Rather unsettling imagery aside I tend to agree. That's why I fight. I write, I post, I call, I volunteer and I look for new ways to promote my ideals everyday. The one thing I don't do is loose hope. I have faced adversity in my life (heck, I face adversity every time I open a bill ), But I simply never consider giving up and running off. I'm just not wired that way.

So, if people decide they want to leave the country, they shouldn't paint it as some grand ideological statement. They're leaving for selfish reasons. They're entitled to that, but they can't try to obfuscate that in grand statements about principle, while They're actively abandoning the fight for They're principles. (This is NOT directed at ANYONE in particular). When people choose to leave, they choose to make it that much more difficult for people like myself to fight for change because we end up with less people and money to work with. Don't expect me to thank them for that. Frankly, I can't even respect them for it.

I'm not giving up on them just yet. At least not the ones who have yet to leave. I sincerely hope that debates like this, will help them wake up and realize what the results of this type of action will actually be. Hence, the rather abrupt "Good Riddance".

The one good thing to come of this is that once those that choose to leave are gone, it will be easier for those who choose to stay to identify who can be counted on.



Of course you shouldn't tolerate such views. But if you leave rather then fight all you do is make Gay Americans that much more of a minority, with one less voice to fight with.

Interesting topic.

I have read the arguments put forth by those who would be sympathetic to packing up and moving to another country. I have also noted the derision from those who think these folks are just "giving up."

We're not moving anywhere anytime soon, as far as I know ('Mudge hasn't said anything!), but I would hesitate a little before moving to Canada anyway. It would mean taking on a whole new set of problems that may be worse.

America is my home. That's why I live here; it has nothing to do with which party is in control. But reading these posts has reminded me why I avoid both redneck bars and Cappuccino cafes. In both places it is easy to encounter attitudes that will, if you let them, make you uncomfortable, and angry at times.

When I volunteered for the Kerry campaign, it was not because I was enamored of the candidate. It was because his espoused values, for the most part, more closely resembled my own. I have seen Republicans moan and complain about those on the public dole, but allow corporate leaders to skim funds and generally make life more miserable for the common people than any welfare queen ever could. Gut the spending bills that help the disadvantaged to get health care or possibly a job, but don't put corporations at a disadvantage for better pollution standards or other reasons; the corporations are sacrosanct.

Maybe it's the abnormal amount of chest thumping that has gone on since the war on Iraq started, and the desperate attempt on the part of the chickenhawks to paint red, white and blue a situation where the proffered evidence was quickly disproven. Maybe it's that, during my first few days of posting on this forum, I was told by another poster that either I supported the President and the war or I was supporting the terrorists. I got over it pretty quickly, but I remember it.

Villains don't pack up and leave; they stay and make life miserable. Heroes are known to stay and fight, but a real hero does not look to pick quarrels. Isn't everybody getting a little tired of fights all the time?

If only we could look at the situation as a possibility of empowering more of the American people to have jobs and healthcare, and to contribute to the overall well-being of our society. Why do we always have to phrase it in terms of a power struggle?

And will somebody, please, get our people out of Iraq?

I love when people accuse other's of being "narrow minded" and "ignorant" then cite the amendment in Alabama as an example of "how this country is turning fascist".

Back in reality the proposal was defeated because it would have broken the state budget it had nothing to do with racism.

http://arc-sos.state.al.us/CGI/SOSACT22.MB...AA.BA9&x=68&y=9

Alabama has the tenth lowest tax rate in the country. If the Constitution were construed to require them to fund education, it would bust their budget and force them to up their taxes.

Then go on to talk about how Germany is so much better economically when their GDP had a whopping growth of .1% and unemployment is usually around 9% double the rate of the US and not even a 1/14 GDP gain of the US. If you would like to continue this conversation about how the EU economy is superior I suggest another thread... just attempt to actually research their economic growth against the US before doing so.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

They are certianly not "hero's" or "villians". If they would like to pack up and leave simply because Bush was re-elected.

Buh-Bye

I dont hold any ill will toward them and wish them best of luck. Everyone has there own ideal of what would make a better future for them. I can only argue my point of view and hope that someone listens. If they believe Canada would make a better life for them im certianly not going to attempt to convince them otherwise.

I dont know much about Canada or the UK but here is what I do know. In the United State's you can achieve a good life as long as you are willing to work hard for it. If you want the government to provide for you then this is certianly not the country for you.

Why are you moving? Simple because GWB was re-elected? IMO it's just silly. The president can only affect the economy so much and if you work hard you will come out on top no matter who the president is. The economy goes up and down you just have to weather the affects and stick to your guns. If you are searching for better "social" conditions you can find that anywhere in the US. You control who you associate with, you control where you decide to vacation, you control what carrer path you take, you and you alone control how much money you make by how much effort you put into it. Immigrants have come to the US with pennies in their pocket and end up with millions in the bank. You control every social aspect of your life not the government (short of drug laws of course in which case I suggest Amsterdam).



I guess that that would explain why proposals such as the flat tax which would close any tax loopholes are mainly supported by the GOP.

Let's try to stay on topic.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

Alabama State Politics has a thread. here

European vs. U.S. economic conditions would probably be an interesting thread.

And, various tax concepts have numerous threads. here, here, here, and here just to point out a few.

The discussion here really boils down to: If someone leaves the country because of their political ideals are they not hurting the others in this country who share those ideals?

In retrospect, "Villain or Hero" to their own cause was a bad way to phrase it. Well, I never was the best at sound bites. I am always at my best with tediously long winded opinions.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

Neither.

Expatriation is hardly a new thing. Here’s an article about members of the Harlem Renaissance who left for France, many of them permanently. Just a people migrate to this country, people from here sometimes migrate elsewhere.



Harlem Renaissance Expatriates

I particularly liked the works of Richard Wright.

Willard Motley, another favorite, wrote Knock on Any Door. He lived in Mexico in his final years.

Willard Motley

There was another popular bumper sticker in those days: These Colors Don't Run That worked for me then, and it works for me now. It may not work for others, and that's ok by me. I'm not going to beg anyone to stay or even attempt to "reason" with them. It's their choice.

I'm sure that the majority of Kerry voters are going to stay here and some of them will consider me to be ignorant and culturally-deprived for actively supporting President Bush's re-election and enjoying NASCAR, and that's fine too I suppose, it is their right to think that. Believe me, I've been called much worse in my life than that.



Not going to call you anything, Wertz. If you want to live in Ireland, by all means, live in Ireland. My fiance tells me it is a beautiful country (she's an American of Irish descent) and someday she wants to take me for a visit there. When that happens perhaps you and I can meet in a pub in Dublin. I'll buy the first round.

If America is not intrinsically part of "the cause", then I'm not quite sure what we're debating. My political ideology knows no national boundaries - my quest for freedom and for human rights is global and it matters not from whose territory I pursue that quest.

This is what I mean by people feeling that America is the center of the universe. It just isn't. In the greater scheme of my aspirations, These Colors Are Irrelevant. Americans tend to conceptualize everything in terms of themselves. America in relation to China, America in relation to Europe. Has anyone here even considered what India means to Brazil? Or Australia to Japan? Americans are the most insular, self-involved people on the face of the earth.

Were I to leave this country again, a large part of it would be to show contempt for that mind-set. The world is moving on - and, most non-Americans hope, leaving America behind. You speak of Gay Americans, overland. I speak of gay men and women, period. People decry the treatment of women in much of the Arab world. Does that mean that they must move to Iran to fight for their rights? As far as I can tell, America is over - it has failed. But that does not mean that the ideals of its founders are dead. Such ideals can thrive elsewhere. If the people of America are no longer interested in liberty and justice for all - and, on the whole, they're clearly not - that does not mean that I have to go down with the ship. I can fight for my ideals anywhere - preferably where they have a chance of being realized.

Maybe, as the rest of the world overtakes America in freedom and justice and civil rights, Americans may one day realize all that they have willingly sacrificed for the greater glory of a handful of self-serving politicians and greedy CEOs who support them. If they don't, then the world may happily say "Good riddance" - to the United States.

I can fight, write, post, call, volunteer, and look for new ways to promote my ideals from any country in the world. Why should I feel loyalty to a country which is actively striving to make me a second- or third-class citizen? Why should I fight for people who hate me? There is enough adversity in the world that one needn't force oneself to dwell in the parlor of one's staunchest adversaries. There comes a point when the bubble of national pride becomes psychosis.

I said that I have lost Hope. By that, I meant that I have lost hope in America - not in my ideals (or, for that matter, what were once America's ideals). As I mentioned above, the real fight may well be against American hegemony - and that could be a fight best fought outside the enemy's territory.

Wishing to feel safe, the desire to live free, and striving to work for one's goals with as few impediments as possible in an environment conducive to advancing those goals may strike some as being selfish. It strikes me as being sane. I am more than willing to lay down my life for my ideals. I am not willing to throw my life away because some demented Christian fundamentalist, inspired by George W Bush, decides to mow down a few degenerates.

My fight is not for America. America, as far as I'm concerned is over - at least for now. My fight is not for issues or parties which only exist within the confines of the fifty states. My fight is for freedom - freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom from want, freedom from fear. The notion that those freedoms can only be fought for in the United States is absurd. Indeed, I would argue that it is much easier to fight for such freedoms in Canada or Ireland or New Zealand - or anywhere that one is not under the yoke of one's oppressors. If I were to leave America again, it would be to empower myself to fight for my principles and, hopefully, one day enable others - whether they be oppressed Americans, oppressed Saudis, or oppressed Chinese - to fight for their principles.

As Franklin Roosevelt said, "The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society." That is an order which America has abandoned - indeed, America can hardly count itself a "free country" any more. "Freedom," he went on to say, "means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights and keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. To that high concept there can be no end save victory." And that victory will no longer be won from these Untied States. Have I given up on America? Hell, yeah. Have I given up on freedom? Not on your - or my - life.

Are those who leave the country for another because of the 2004 election results, heros or villains to their own causes?

I don't know. Can you be sure that the 2004 election is the true cause and not just a symptom of something far greater and deeper. Wertz is certainly clear about his perspective being of much greater depth than just a simple election loss and I don't see any argument here that indicates his position is a false one.

It seems to me that given the history of the twentieth century, its actually very wise to leave if you feel in danger of being killed, and since when was freedom any sort of freedom if you have to fight for it?

Well, for the first part, who was General Patton to decide or describe who the Americans were/ are. A man who's only claim to fame is a series of dubious military encounters can hardly be compared to the intellectual merits of the people who wrote the US constitution, and as far as I am aware, it doesn't say anything about who the American people are in the constitution... other than 'We the American people'.

editted to crrect myself... it actually says, 'We, the people of the United States'. My mistake.

Please excuse my profound ignorance, but wasn't the United States of America founded by people who were running away from just such sentiments of disregard?

If that's the only reason to leave the country, I think it's being a fool. Ah well, a bunch of conservatives made threats to leave the country because of Clinton's first and second wins. So fools follow no particular party line. They just are.

One very fortunate thing for me is that Colorado has turned the corner and now is purple, with significant control of the state legislature being in Demo hands. Still have a Repub governor for two more years. Got one Demo Senator, one Rep. Shoot, maybe there will be a mass exodus of Repubs from Colorado? One can only hope.

Personally, and I have daydreamed on this plenty, if this country goes extremely right -- it has a ways to go -- then I'd be making a stink to equal the extremity. Otherwise, this hunk of land is my home. Been to Canada. Nice place to visit. Nice people. Great Mounty uniforms. Mountains are great, Vancouver is very attractive, lots of places that would make a decent home. Lots of good musicians come from there, but make the money in the US. Isn't Avril Levine from Canada? I know the father of grung, Neil Young, came from there. Rust never sleeps!

I do think we are fools for dismissing what Canada does socially, but as stated above, this crosses party lines. More important than the recent right turn this country made is the arrogance of its population. Pride precedes the fall, eh?

But Colorado could be the leading edge of another shift. It's rather nice to see the conservatives suddenly the underdogs, the ones who have to suck up. They are scared too that Demos have learned the ruthlessness of politics. No more Mr. Niceguy?

Eh, no move north for me. I like it here and am staying. For those who like to run around, trying to find a comfort zone, both Demo and Republican, all I have is sympathy. Life is hard, and it's harder if you're a fool (to borrow a line).

Besides, the show has just begun! We get to watch the full realization of the Bush Doctrine, the downfall of neocons, and the uprising of the population as a result. This is going to be good -- downright historical, if not hysterical.

Um, one reason for moving to Canada now that makes a lot of sense is that currently, Canada wants American workers. The country actively solicits for American workers. Should a draft be reenacted, I bet that stops very quickly. If a family has members approaching draft age, I can understand.

I also need to acknowledge that too many families are dealing with the fallout of the Bush Doctrine and neocons. My deepest sympathies. Historical, but not funny.

Wertz, I also love Ireland but it does have faults just like we do. You do realize that in Ireland there is an actual sectarian conflict, far beyond any American red-state zealotry? Where people actually fight and kill each other on any given weekend? Where the Orange order marches annually to celebrate 'their side' and its religious superiority over the 'other side'? Not to mention that, despite whatever status gays enjoy, closed-minded hooligans still attack, intimidate and razor-blade the faces of gay Irish / Brits / Scots just as intolerant rednecks may harass gay Americans on occasion.

I don't want to be too critical of your decision, as you've obviously given it a lot of thought, but let's be honest about America's faults vs. the grass being 'greener' on the other side (Irish pun). Whether anti-Asian sentiment in the UK, bikers in Scandinavia, Islamic radicals i