Full Version: Non-Lethal Weapons
Last year, Taser International grew 650%. Their stock is now selling at a price-earnings ratio of 90, which is stratospheric. Taser hopes to lead a mass-consumer non-lethal weapons buying spree. They will have to move fast.
Taser: Stunning in Plenty of Ways
Though Taser is getting the attention, it is by no means the only NLW on the scene, and there are plenty more in the wings. "A violent crime against an individual occurs every 18 seconds and an assault occurs every 29 seconds."
Pepper Spray Inc.
The military has been referring to microorganisms that eat asphalt and kevlar as NLWs, instead of biological warfare agents, hoping to avoid strong treaty sanctions - and they would rather the public not hear about it. Some of these bugs will have tactical civilian applications.
US non-lethal weapon reports suppressed
The NLWs phenomena has been honing its act for 30 years, and all indications are it is about to put on a show-stealing performance. During the next 1 to 3 years, expect to see a sensational buildup of public interest in an array of novel, non-lethal personal weaponry.
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Taser: Stunning in Plenty of Ways
Though Taser is getting the attention, it is by no means the only NLW on the scene, and there are plenty more in the wings. "A violent crime against an individual occurs every 18 seconds and an assault occurs every 29 seconds."
Pepper Spray Inc.
The military has been referring to microorganisms that eat asphalt and kevlar as NLWs, instead of biological warfare agents, hoping to avoid strong treaty sanctions - and they would rather the public not hear about it. Some of these bugs will have tactical civilian applications.
US non-lethal weapon reports suppressed
The NLWs phenomena has been honing its act for 30 years, and all indications are it is about to put on a show-stealing performance. During the next 1 to 3 years, expect to see a sensational buildup of public interest in an array of novel, non-lethal personal weaponry.
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
When did we loose this mentality? All the concealed carry laws passing in state after state seems to suggest that mentality is still going strong. I for one support these laws, basically because of my personal philosophy on defense and individual responsiblity and the statistical data that suggests they do no substantial added harm to our society and in fact create some small gains for society as a whole.
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
What regulation is needed here?
UL or another agency determines if the product are safe for consumers. If they are biologically based, I assume the FDA would have to approve them as well. As for bringing them them to market that should be about it.
If the product malfunctions and injures the user and / or a bystander, the manufacturer will be subject to existing product liability law regardless of the "newness" of the device.
As for there use. Assault is Assault. No new law or regulation is needed on tire-irons to prosecute someone for assaulting someone else with one. And no new law is needed to protect someone who was acting in self-defense when they did so. Use of these weapons, non-lethal or not would still be subject to the same legal code.
I can be slow at times, especially when I am sick (thanks to playing nurse to the family now I am the patient
), so it is quite possible that I am missing something here. If I am, please feel free to spell it out, s-l-o-w-l-y, using small words, and pass the Ibuprofen. 
When did we loose this mentality? All the concealed carry laws passing in state after state seems to suggest that mentality is still going strong. I for one support these laws, basically because of my personal philosophy on defense and individual responsiblity and the statistical data that suggests they do no substantial added harm to our society and in fact create some small gains for society as a whole.
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
What regulation is needed here?
UL or another agency determines if the product are safe for consumers. If they are biologically based, I assume the FDA would have to approve them as well. As for bringing them them to market that should be about it.
If the product malfunctions and injures the user and / or a bystander, the manufacturer will be subject to existing product liability law regardless of the "newness" of the device.
As for there use. Assault is Assault. No new law or regulation is needed on tire-irons to prosecute someone for assaulting someone else with one. And no new law is needed to protect someone who was acting in self-defense when they did so. Use of these weapons, non-lethal or not would still be subject to the same legal code.
I can be slow at times, especially when I am sick (thanks to playing nurse to the family now I am the patient
), so it is quite possible that I am missing something here. If I am, please feel free to spell it out, s-l-o-w-l-y, using small words, and pass the Ibuprofen.
Ok ... here's two Ibuprofen: <0>, <0>... and I'll go gentle. 
Overlandsailor asks:
When did we loose this (weapons-)mentality?
We do still have a modest degree of active weapons-mentality in mainstream America, but it is a feeble shadow of it's former self ... and of what it is capable of being.
Hells Angels have a decently developed weapons-mentality, as do some urban youth gangs. In both of these cases, though, the attitude is only partially developed, because it is practiced only by isolated groups embedded in the larger community.
Only a few generations ago, certainly in rural areas (which were then dominant..), being fully armed, dangerous, and experienced was the minimum qualifying norm. Average practitioners at that time would shame today's 'recreational arms-enthusiasts'.
I suppose the next issue is, "How could anything like that develop today"? I submit that indeed it could, and that a high-intensity fad for non-lethal armament could set the stage for it.
Overlandsailor asks:
What regulation is needed here?
The safety of these devices is largely a smokescreen. Their safety is immaterial - what counts is the intentions of the user. A police officer who faces one is not concerned with it's safety, but with the thoughts behind it's deployment.
Actually, the question of regulation is not posed as an inherent factor with NLWs. First, there is no existing regulator climate; second, major commercial interests are strenuously forestalling the possibility, and third the range of technologies and their high potential for diversification and further invention would make regulation almost pointless.
But I and others do see a likelihood that as NLWs become a 'craze', we will hear calls for "regulation!". Therefore, it seems prudent to have the question on the table from the beginning.
The social process that I think could develop/emerge starts with a core of basically familiar personal weaponry of the non-lethal sort, but transformed into a high-advertising, high-me-tooism, 'racey-sensational' 'enjoyment' of a formerly 'forbidden' 'dangerousness'.
Then, people discover that what they have in the way of NLWs are a joke, even downright hazardous in their wimpiness. They need better versions of these things. More range. Multi-round capacity. Countermeasures.
Within a climate of high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, their wishes will be granted.
It looks like the components are in place for a runaway positive feedback ... craze.
QUOTE
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
Overlandsailor asks:
When did we loose this (weapons-)mentality?
We do still have a modest degree of active weapons-mentality in mainstream America, but it is a feeble shadow of it's former self ... and of what it is capable of being.
Hells Angels have a decently developed weapons-mentality, as do some urban youth gangs. In both of these cases, though, the attitude is only partially developed, because it is practiced only by isolated groups embedded in the larger community.
Only a few generations ago, certainly in rural areas (which were then dominant..), being fully armed, dangerous, and experienced was the minimum qualifying norm. Average practitioners at that time would shame today's 'recreational arms-enthusiasts'.
I suppose the next issue is, "How could anything like that develop today"? I submit that indeed it could, and that a high-intensity fad for non-lethal armament could set the stage for it.
QUOTE
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Overlandsailor asks:
What regulation is needed here?
The safety of these devices is largely a smokescreen. Their safety is immaterial - what counts is the intentions of the user. A police officer who faces one is not concerned with it's safety, but with the thoughts behind it's deployment.
Actually, the question of regulation is not posed as an inherent factor with NLWs. First, there is no existing regulator climate; second, major commercial interests are strenuously forestalling the possibility, and third the range of technologies and their high potential for diversification and further invention would make regulation almost pointless.
But I and others do see a likelihood that as NLWs become a 'craze', we will hear calls for "regulation!". Therefore, it seems prudent to have the question on the table from the beginning.
The social process that I think could develop/emerge starts with a core of basically familiar personal weaponry of the non-lethal sort, but transformed into a high-advertising, high-me-tooism, 'racey-sensational' 'enjoyment' of a formerly 'forbidden' 'dangerousness'.
Then, people discover that what they have in the way of NLWs are a joke, even downright hazardous in their wimpiness. They need better versions of these things. More range. Multi-round capacity. Countermeasures.
Within a climate of high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, their wishes will be granted.
It looks like the components are in place for a runaway positive feedback ... craze.
QUOTE(TedClayton @ Dec 3 2004, 07:22 PM)
Ok ... here's two Ibuprofen: <0>, <0>... and I'll go gentle.
Thanks, but I usually take four
QUOTE
We do still have a modest degree of active weapons-mentality in mainstream America, but it is a feeble shadow of it's former self ... and of what it is capable of being.
Hells Angels have a decently developed weapons-mentality, as do some urban youth gangs. In both of these cases, though, the attitude is only partially developed, because it is practiced only by isolated groups embedded in the larger community.
Only a few generations ago, certainly in rural areas (which were then dominant..), being fully armed, dangerous, and experienced was the minimum qualifying norm. Average practitioners at that time would shame today's 'recreational arms-enthusiasts'.
Hells Angels have a decently developed weapons-mentality, as do some urban youth gangs. In both of these cases, though, the attitude is only partially developed, because it is practiced only by isolated groups embedded in the larger community.
Only a few generations ago, certainly in rural areas (which were then dominant..), being fully armed, dangerous, and experienced was the minimum qualifying norm. Average practitioners at that time would shame today's 'recreational arms-enthusiasts'.
I see you're point, but I don't think America will ever reach that level again. People used to talk about how violent sports were getting and how Gladiatorial Combat was just around the corner. That was in the 80s.
QUOTE
I suppose the next issue is, "How could anything like that develop today"? I submit that indeed it could, and that a high-intensity fad for non-lethal armament could set the stage for it.
Oh it could happen, it's just not likely. Now if we had surges in crime rates and people began to really feel unprotected that it could happen. I just don't expect it to go there.
Look at the concealed carry laws. Naysayers said everyone would be armed, their would be shootouts in bars and America would return to the wild west. It just hasn't happened.
QUOTE
QUOTE
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Overlandsailor asks:
What regulation is needed here?
Actually, the question of regulation is not posed as an inherent factor with NLWs. First, there is no existing regulator climate; second, major commercial interests are strenuously forestalling the possibility, and third the range of technologies and their high potential for diversification and further invention would make regulation almost pointless.
But I and others do see a likelihood that as NLWs become a 'craze', we will hear calls for "regulation!". Therefore, it seems prudent to have the question on the table from the beginning.
Why specifically are you proposing we regulate. You say safety isn't the issue. I assume you agree with me that criminal use of these things can be currently prosecuted, under existing law. So what are you proposing we regulate? Are you suggesting a NLW registration process similar to guns?
QUOTE
Then, people discover that what they have in the way of NLWs are a joke, even downright hazardous in their wimpiness. They need better versions of these things. More range. Multi-round capacity. Countermeasures.
Within a climate of high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, their wishes will be granted.
Within a climate of high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, their wishes will be granted.
I don't see the problem here. If people want more powerful NWLs then companies will make them because there are buyers out there. If the level of power of these devices becomes a public safety issue at that time, then we should probably look into regulation of them.
They simply are not a public safety issue now.
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America? I'm doubtful that this will happen. Pepper spray has been available for a while now, and I don't know of anyone who carries it...certainly no one who has ever used it. I don't imagine that the military-style microorganisms you described would ever be available to the general public (EPA restrictions, if nothing else). We had a thread on TASER a while back, and it sounds as though the safety precautions actually exceed those of more lethal weapons.
I agree with you that high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, are all selling points for these weapons, but a large limiting factor is the potential for liability. That is the reason TASER set up the above precautions, and any other company would likely do so as well.
QUOTE
* TASER International's unique Anti-Felon Identification (AFID) system
enforces accountability for each use of the TASER via the dispersal of
tiny unique coded tags every time the device is fired. When police
are called to investigate any TASER use, they can find these tags and
contact TASER International for a complete trace on the serial number.
* TASER International will employ a technologically advanced and
comprehensive Social Security Number and credit card validation
system, in order to verify age and identity before shipment. We will
not ship to post office boxes, and credit card billing addresses must
match physical addresses obtained via Social Security number searches.
* TASER International has partnered with the law enforcement community
to offer expert training on the responsible use of the TASER X26C
Citizen Defense System. Private Citizens who purchase this device
will receive a coupon redeemable for a one-hour in-home training
course from a local law enforcement officer who is trained in TASER
safety and use. Over 1,000 police officers have enlisted to
participate in this training program.
enforces accountability for each use of the TASER via the dispersal of
tiny unique coded tags every time the device is fired. When police
are called to investigate any TASER use, they can find these tags and
contact TASER International for a complete trace on the serial number.
* TASER International will employ a technologically advanced and
comprehensive Social Security Number and credit card validation
system, in order to verify age and identity before shipment. We will
not ship to post office boxes, and credit card billing addresses must
match physical addresses obtained via Social Security number searches.
* TASER International has partnered with the law enforcement community
to offer expert training on the responsible use of the TASER X26C
Citizen Defense System. Private Citizens who purchase this device
will receive a coupon redeemable for a one-hour in-home training
course from a local law enforcement officer who is trained in TASER
safety and use. Over 1,000 police officers have enlisted to
participate in this training program.
I agree with you that high commercial success, market responsiveness, and mounting competition, are all selling points for these weapons, but a large limiting factor is the potential for liability. That is the reason TASER set up the above precautions, and any other company would likely do so as well.
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Not sure there was ever a weapons mentality back then, at least not the same kind we have now. Back then, in the more civilized towns in the west, guns were not as common as the TV shows try to make us believe. Today, some of the guys I know who eat, sleep, and breathe guns are the delusional type who think that a mugger is around each and every corner. I don't carry a weapon on the street, but then I almost never go to the part of town where I might feel I need one, and forget about bars and similar type hangouts, and never at night. A very high percentage, usually a large majority, of the crimes committed in the bad parts of any town are alcohol or drug related. If you don't hang around those parts of town, you don't need the weapon or the weapon mentality.
We don't regulate sharp, pointy things that can be used to stab someone, and they are everywhere. There is no effective way to regulate the weapons, what we need to regulate is the criminal. And once he has established himself as a violent person who will use a weapon, he should be put away, or put down, like an animal would be when it is determined that its behavior is likely to remain violent.
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
Not sure there was ever a weapons mentality back then, at least not the same kind we have now. Back then, in the more civilized towns in the west, guns were not as common as the TV shows try to make us believe. Today, some of the guys I know who eat, sleep, and breathe guns are the delusional type who think that a mugger is around each and every corner. I don't carry a weapon on the street, but then I almost never go to the part of town where I might feel I need one, and forget about bars and similar type hangouts, and never at night. A very high percentage, usually a large majority, of the crimes committed in the bad parts of any town are alcohol or drug related. If you don't hang around those parts of town, you don't need the weapon or the weapon mentality.
We don't regulate sharp, pointy things that can be used to stab someone, and they are everywhere. There is no effective way to regulate the weapons, what we need to regulate is the criminal. And once he has established himself as a violent person who will use a weapon, he should be put away, or put down, like an animal would be when it is determined that its behavior is likely to remain violent.
QUOTE(TedClayton @ Dec 3 2004, 09:36 AM)
Will a mass consumer fad for non-lethal weapons lead to a 21st century revival of the old-fashioned 'weapons-mentality' in America?
Are there effective ways to regulate these products?
A. I sure hope so. The Bush administration's reaffirmation that the 2nd amendment's reference to the "people" is not the only part of our constitution where the "people" doesn't mean "the people" was also refreshing. I was growing tired of the left's insistence that this single reference somehow referred to the National Guard independent of all other references to "the people". The right to self defense is unalienable. The government should not be able to infringe upon it.
B. Why? They are "non lethal" by definition. I would think that regulation would be far less an issue.
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