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London2LA
The administration's insistence on sticking to the January 30th deadline for elections in Iraq, and Bush's statement that its time for Iraqi's voices to be heard made me think about the nature of Democracy in Iraq. In the west, we think of elections as a choice between candidates & parties that represent different ideas and philosophies, and we may switch between them at different times, in fact thats what makes the whole thing work.

In Iraq, the parties are forming strictly down ethnic and tribal lines, and its difficult to see voters doing anything but voting for their own ethnic party. Its tough to envision a bunch of Shia saying "I think I'll vote Sunni this time". The end result of this seems to me to be just domination by the majority tribe, you may as well just take a census and decide that way. In any event, it seems unlikely that the Sunnis and Kurds will be happy living under permanant Shia rule.


Is what is happening in Iraq really Democracy?

Even if it meets the technical criteria, is it a good solution for Iraq or just a recipe for Civil war?
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Jerrys Kid
QUOTE(London2LA @ Dec 3 2004, 03:24 PM)
The administration's insistence on sticking to the January 30th deadline for elections in Iraq, and Bush's statement that its time for Iraqi's voices to be heard made me think about the nature of Democracy in Iraq. In the west, we think of elections as a choice between candidates & parties that represent different ideas and philosophies, and we may switch between them at different times, in fact thats what makes the whole thing work.

In Iraq, the parties are forming strictly down ethnic and tribal lines, and its difficult to see voters doing anything but voting for their own ethnic party. Its tough to envision a bunch of Shia saying "I think I'll vote Sunni this time". The end result of this seems to me to be just domination by the majority tribe, you may as well just take a census and decide that way. In any event, it seems unlikely that the Sunnis and Kurds will be happy living under permanant Shia rule.


Is what is happening in Iraq really Democracy?

Even if it meets the technical criteria, is it a good solution for Iraq or just a recipe for Civil war?
*



Change Shia to "Southern Baptist" or "Evangelical Christian" and Kurds to "Liberals" and you have a strikingly familiar situation to the democracy we have in the US. In a Democracy, majority rules regardless of how it effects the minority. Just ask a Gay American.

Is what is happening in Iraq really Democracy?
Not yet, but it will one day be ruled by the Majority in Iraq, and then, yes, it will be a democracy. It cannot be considered one now as the President of the US, (or emperor of the world as he is known in some circles) has demanded that elections take place on a given date regardless of the the possibility of everyone being able to vote.

Even if it meets the technical criteria, is it a good solution for Iraq or just a recipe for Civil war? I guess we will just have to see. Remember, democracy in the US is only 200 years old, and some would say that it is already starting to disappear. Why Americans think that this justifies that everyone should live in a democracy is beyond me. We have not proven anything yet, and if the "true path" does lie between the extremes, then we need to start looking at alternatives here at home.

Force feeding democracy is UN-DEMOCRATIC, no matter what your leader says about it. Question authority.
TedClayton
QUOTE
Is what is happening in Iraq really Democracy?

Even if it meets the technical criteria, is it a good solution for Iraq or just a recipe for Civil war?

Jerrys Kid nails both these questions.

For a while some years back, there was a network of African American political activists who held up the fact that although Black Americans are about 20%, they lose contested issues in the Legislature virtually 100% of the time. "If we are 20%, how come we don't have 20% influence?"

When commentators clear their throat and say, "Well, Democracy is of course not perfect", this is a perfect example of what they are talking about . It is in fact not perfect. Same applies in Iraq, alright, as per Jerrys Kid.

But London2LA fingers what many consider the important point in the Iraq drama, "In any event, it seems unlikely that the Sunnis and Kurds will be happy living under permanant Shia rule."

Like, no kidding, huh? Bush Senior contemplated going to Baghdad himself. He did the arithmetic, and on his calculator the result always came up ugly. Civil War was a prominent conclusion, and it was the chief objection of many who differed with GWB's decision making process.

There are messes you can make and then unmake, and there are messes that cannot be unmade.
Vampiel
QUOTE
Force feeding democracy is UN-DEMOCRATIC, no matter what your leader says about it. Question authority.


I do not believe that's possible. What is possible is to force feed a country something other than Democracy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


It's virtually impossible to "force feed" a government by the people on themselves. What you are explaining is giving them the option to form their own government.

Is what is happening in Iraq really Democracy?

It depends on what timeline you are giving. Currently the state is certianly not a Democracy. One can only predict what will happen in the future. Given the circumstance's there will be one of two occurances in Iraq. One will be a Democratic state with ongoing terrorist attacks though a more Taliban like strategy because of routed supply lines and limited volunteers. The other option will be a civil war. These are the only two outcomes that I can see.

Even if it meets the technical criteria, is it a good solution for Iraq or just a recipe for Civil war?

If a vote occur's that is approved by the UN and as long as each group has representation, I dont see why it would lead to a civil war. Democracy will not become a new achievement in Iraq.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rels/2/lectures/lecture3.html

QUOTE
In each city-state, political authority rested in a political assembly that practiced a primitive democracy.
Mrs. Pigpen
QUOTE(London2LA @ Dec 3 2004, 02:24 PM)
In Iraq, the parties are forming strictly down ethnic and tribal lines, and its difficult to see voters doing anything but voting for their own ethnic party. Its tough to envision a bunch of Shia saying "I think I'll vote Sunni this time". The end result of this seems to me to be just domination by the majority tribe, you may as well just take a census and decide that way. In any event, it seems unlikely that the Sunnis and Kurds will be happy living under permanant Shia rule.
*


The Iraq transitional constitution seems to be based on a decentralized federal political model offering much authority to the municipal and local governments. That is about the best way under the circumstances to assure local autonomy and give everyone a say in the political process, but maintain an equitable distribution of Iraq's oil and tax revenues (which might not be possible if the country were split into separate nation-states, rather than sharing a central government).
QUOTE
Article 52.

The design of the federal system in Iraq shall be established in such a way as to prevent the concentration of power in the federal government that allowed the continuation of decades of tyranny and oppression under the previous regime. This system shall encourage the exercise of local authority by local officials in every region and governorate, thereby creating a united Iraq in which every citizen actively participates in governmental affairs, secure in his rights and free of domination.

Article 53.

(A) The Kurdistan Regional Government is recognized as the official government of the territories that were administered by the that government on 19 March 2003 in the governorates of Dohuk, Arbil, Sulaimaniya, Kirkuk, Diyala and Neneveh. The term “Kurdistan Regional Government” shall refer to the Kurdistan National Assembly, the Kurdistan Council of Ministers, and the regional judicial authority in the Kurdistan region.

*snip*

c) Any group of no more than three governorates outside the Kurdistan region, with the exception of Baghdad and Kirkuk, shall have the right to form regions from amongst themselves. The mechanisms for forming such regions may be proposed by the Iraqi Interim Government, and shall be presented and considered by the elected National Assembly for enactment into law. In addition to being approved by the National Assembly, any legislation proposing the formation of a particular region must be approved in a referendum of the people of the relevant governorates.

(D) This Law shall guarantee the administrative, cultural, and political rights of the Turcomans, ChaldoAssyrians, and all other citizens.


To answer the questions to be debated...I think the government is set up appropriately for the situation. That doesn't mean there would be no chance of a civil war even with a decentralized government offering effective representation. This country was led by a very strong and authoritarian central government before, so time will tell if the people can live in harmony without one. Of course, first they must be reasonably safe for the democratic process to happen, and that's not the case at the moment.
Vampiel
QUOTE
Any group of no more than three governorates outside the Kurdistan region, with the exception of Baghdad and Kirkuk, shall have the right to form regions from amongst themselves. The mechanisms for forming such regions may be proposed by the Iraqi Interim Government, and shall be presented and considered by the elected National Assembly for enactment into law. In addition to being approved by the National Assembly, any legislation proposing the formation of a particular region must be approved in a referendum of the people of the relevant governorates.


This was written to encourage province powers within Iraq. This will allow a federal government to rule without the population feeling isolated from their ethnic background.

http://www.iraqigovernment.org/interim_government.htm

QUOTE
The judicial branch of government is as set out in the Transitional Administrative Law (TAL). It includes a Federal Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, which has the authority to resolve constitutional disputes.
...
The Transitional Administrative Law (TAL) is the supreme law of the land. The Iraqi Interim Government operates under the rule of law according to the TAL.
...
The term “transitional period” shall refer to the period beginning on 30 June 2004 and lasting until the formation of an elected Iraqi government pursuant to a permanent constitution as set forth in this Law, which in any case shall be no later than 31 December 2005, unless the provisions of Article 61 are applied.


http://www.iraqigovernment.org/law_tal.htm

QUOTE
Article 3

This Law is the Supreme Law of the land and shall be binding in all parts of Iraq without exception. No amendment to this Law may be made except by a three-fourths majority of the members of the National Assembly and the unanimous approval of the Presidency Council.



http://www.daggerjag.blogspot.com/

QUOTE("DaggerJag")
For several reasons, including expediencey, inclusiveness, and simplicity, the UN and the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq (IECI) decided to make all of Iraq a single electoral district. This means that, unlike in the US where each state is guaranteed representation in Congress based on population, there is no guarantee that each of the Iraqi provinces will have representation. The ballot is the same in Basra (far south) as it is in Mosul (far north) and the Iraqis will have a choice of at least 156 political "entities."

Most of the political "entities" are political parties but some individuals have registered as political entities on their own. The parties have submitted lists of their "candidates" and the number of seats each party gets is based on a "threshhold" number of votes. If, for instance, all of the estimated 15 million eligible voters cast ballots, then the threshhold number is 54,454 votes (15 million dividied by the 275 seats in the National Assembly). If a party garners that many votes then the first candidate on their list wins a seat in the National Assembly.



Basically there will be 275 seats available and these parties will consruct the permanent constituion. Every ethnic group will have representation as long as they vote. All of the TAL laws can be amended. Therefore ultimately the Iraqi people will chose what form of government and law's their country will abide by.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

Indeed Iraq will become a Democracy as long as the country does not spiral into civil war.

http://www.daggerjag.blogspot.com/

QUOTE("DaggerJag")
Well things are moving along nicely right now. I keep seeing all these articles on CNN or in the earlybird saying the Iraqi elections are going to be postponed but, so far, we've seen nothing to that effect. We're still looking forward and preparing for 30 January. It is a very confusing process and that's becoming more apparent as the registration for candidates has proceeded. The whole process is different than what the Iraqis are used to but, despite some of the drawbacks, I think it is the best system they could hope for in such a short time. It took three years to prepare for the elections in Afghanistan and Iraq is doing it in about 20 months.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140110,00.html

QUOTE("Some guy at FOX")
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraq's president, an influential Sunni Muslim (search), threw his support Wednesday behind holding the Jan. 30 election on time despite insurgent threats he said have paralyzed voter registration voter registration in some Sunni areas of the country.
...
However, President Ghazi al-Yawer, who wields considerable influence among Sunni tribal figures, told reporters in Baghdad he opposed any delay.

"I personally think that there is a legal and a moral obligation to hold elections on the set date," he said. "Legally and morally, we have to abide by the date set for the elections in the country's administrative law" which mandates a ballot by the end of January.


So far everything seems to be going foward.

Ohh and some guy working for the UN said something along the same lines.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140107,00.html

QUOTE("Some guy in the UN")
"I won't say I am happy, but I am satisfied with the process," Carlos Valenzuela (search) told The Associated Press in an interview. "People tend to have these very unrealistic expectations about elections. ... They are not a panacea, but they seem to me at least at this moment the one way to go that would help the transitional process" in Iraq.
turnea
QUOTE(London2LA @ Dec 3 2004, 04:24 PM)
In Iraq, the parties are forming strictly down ethnic and tribal lines, and its difficult to see voters doing anything but voting for their own ethnic party. 
*


It is important to note that although it is true than many of the parties are homogenous when it comes to their sectarian make-up, there are a number of parties contending for a power base in each sect. This means it is not a simple choice of Sunni-Shia-Kurd.
QUOTE
A rift has developed among the major Shiite political groups here, raising the prospect of fierce competition for votes among rival Shiite factions in the coming elections and possibly altering the religious and political alignment of the country's new national assembly.[...]
Ayatollah Sistani was reportedly trying to repair the rift through intermediaries as late as Monday evening. But the divisions over power sharing and other issues appeared to be so deep that it was "almost impossible" to reconcile the two sides, officials with the Shiite Council said.

Rift Among Shiite Factions May Hurt Them in Election
The Kurds have had two major competing parties for some time.

The situation isn't as simple as some would have you believe, and it looks now that Iraqi Democracy (contrary to previous exclamations that such a thing is impossible rolleyes.gif) is on track on the political end of things. Security may be another matter.
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