Alright... I am really, really white. As driven snow or whatever, but I am an urban dweller so unlike those who grow up in the suburbs (statistically undiversified) I have had much contact with our fellow races. I have always been sensitive to racist undertones, and the plight of our nations Afro-americans was one of the first things that really got me upset with the system. Read Moore's Stupid White Men, I can't remember the name of the chapter, but Mike got his hands on some ALARMING research.

It has been over forty years since the civil rights era, and for what was accomplished then, 50% of black children still live in poverty, as compared to something like 1 in 5 or 6 whites.

so my first question is:

1) What the heck is going on? (in regards to progress)

I am reading Cornel West's Race Matters right now and he suggests that Liberals and Conservatives are both wrong as to what to do. Liberals advocate Structuralism, as in changes in the structure of government to "lift" the black race into more favorable circumstance. Conservatives advocate behavioral changes on the parts of black culture. West argues that we need a different approach that he calls a prophetic approach. A prophetic approach would do away with the behavioral attacks of conservatives (fear of black youth etc.) without eliminating personal responsibility from the teachings. It would not assume that structure is the cure for the race problem, without reverting to a system that is traditionally biased for race. It would attack the Nihilism of black culture and work to find black leaders to do just that, to inspire and lead. It's a great book, I recommend to anyone who wants a good look at America's race crisis as it unfolds.

Now what I am wondering is:

2) What do you personally feel must be done on and individual as well as social level to adress the situation of Afro-Americans in our society?

3) Do you feel like we are moving forward or backwards over the last four years?

Yes, I can relate to being white. It's something I haven't been able to resolve either.

1) What the heck is going on? (in regards to progress)

Generally, it seems that the external orientation promoted by terrorism, by concern with oil supplies and various international conditions has drawn attention away from race issues in the United States. They are being somewhat overshadowed.

2) What do you personally feel must be done on and individual as well as social level to address the situation of Afro-Americans in our society?
There is very little dispersal of Afro-Americans into many parts of the country. Individuals can do something about that, and the consequences of it. It actually requires very few individuals to make a large perceptual difference in many unintegrated districts. Salt & pepper relationships help a lot, too. In the mid-90s I was partnered with a black gal, in a rural unintegrated area, and the reactions of people we encountered in public were a real privilege to witness. Many visibly struggled with multiple unbidden reactions, and most hauled themselves up by the bootstraps and did themselves proud.

3) Do you feel like we are moving forward or backwards over the last four years?
Muddling. In many cases, muddle might be the best thing to do. Society, like people, moves in ebbs & flows. We're stalled a bit here for a few years, but nothing really adverse is going on (aside from the usual..).

Nice vibes for the gays I think helps keep the race topic in folks' minds, too.

Here are my thoughts on "race". What was done in the past was wrong, immoral, and against the founding principles of our country. But the past is in the past and nothing can change that. At the same time, it's wrong to hold current Americans accountable for the sins of their ancestors.

With respect to performance of "afro Americans", the issue is not discrimination. It's behavior. It's culture. When 70%+ of "black" kids are born out of wedlock, there is nothing the government or "whites" can do to address that core individual issue. When over 50% of imprisoned people in this country are "black" when they represent 12% of the overall population, we're looking at behavior issues, not anything related to a person's skin tone. When young black kids who strive to achieve academically are derided for acting "white" and when "gangsta rappers" who indulge in every negative impulse are glorified, the issue is culture, not "race".

It's now time to move forward. The solution is to eliminate, as a practical matter, the entire concept of "race". The race industry and their allies in the democrat party are just making the situation worse by ignoring or denying the core issues and focusing on an irrelevancy; the color of a person's skin and their "racial" characteristics.

Individuals need to be held accountable for their individual actions. If we are going to condemn the "white surpremicist" movement (as we should), then the same criticism should be leveled at equally racist organizations such as the NAACP. If race is the core of the membership, then that organization should be looked down at. I am not in denial about history. However, organizations that were founded to correct a fundamental wrong have taken on a life of their own and an agenda that is far beyond eliminating illegal discrimination.

Instead, the focus should be on individual behavior and the choices that individuals make on a daily basis. Race should be taken out of the equation for good. It should become a non issue in this country. It is one area where we could truly be a beacon of "progress" for the entire world.

Every so often one stumbles upon postings on this board that are so removed from reality as to make you wonder if the poster forgot to include a Smiley face so you would realize they were not serious.

In what Bizzaro world is the NAACP "equally racist" as white supremacist organizations like the Ku Klux Klan, the White Citizens Council, or neo-Nazi hate groups? Whom in the NAACP is as "equally racist" as David Duke, Tom Metzger, or Richard Butler?

When did the NAACP blow up a church and murder four little white girls as the Klan did when it blew up the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church on September 15, 1963 in Birmingham, Alabama? When did NAACP members pick up a white man, chain him to the back of a truck and drag him to his death until the head and arms were torn from his body as James Byrd Jr. was in Jasper, Texas on June 14, 1998?

How many NAACP members have burned the homes of white people, or beat, whipped, and killed them? How many NAACP members have assassinated white political leaders? What NAACP member wrote the equivalent of The Turner Diaries, the race-war novel that inspired Timothy McVeigh?

The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks American hate groups on it's website, Tolerance.org. They list 136 organizations as being "black separatist" groups such as the Nation of Islam and the New Black Panther Party. That is in comparison to 158 Ku Klux Klan groups, 149 neo-Nazi groups, 39 racist skinheads groups, 31 Christian Identity groups, 91 neo-Confederate organizations and 147 "other" groups that don't fit into any the previous categories but hate somebody anyhow. That's 615 to 136 and the NAACP didn't make the cut. Where is the "equally racist" parity there, lord helmet?

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/index.html

Apparently, President Bush disagrees with you about the NAACP being a racist organization as he met with the group's outgoing president, Kweisi Mfume on December 21. Guess Bush must have blown off a sit-down with the Klan for that one, huh?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=350888

There are legitimate reasons to criticize the NAACP. Maybe it's stuck in a time warp fighting old battles that have already been won. Perhaps the organization has become too partisan and biased against Republican politicians? It could be said that the NAACP should evaluate it's effectiveness and mission in today's America. We can suggest that it's time for younger, fresher and more open-minded leaders to step to the forefront and forge a new NAACP.

What you can NOT say with any semblance of truth is the NAACP is a racist organization on the slimy level of a National Alliance, World Church of the Creator or Resistance Records. However, if you want to try lord helmet, bring something a little more substantial to the table than your totally unsupported opinion.

http://resistance.com/catalog/index.php?cP...2bd04a9f6099be3

Great post nighttimer.

Actually the NAACP was/is one of the more moderate civil rights organizations.

Here's a link to some history of the organization:

http://www.africanaonline.com/orga_naacp.htm

The NAACP is an organization based entirely on the concept of "race". In other words, it's an organization that is not based on the content of one's character, one's personality, one's occupation, one's belief system, one's qualifications in any way, shape, or form. It's based on external superficial physical characteristics. Period. That's a concept that I find fundamentally "bizarre".

On that basis, the NAACP no different than the Neo-Nazi "hate" groups that you reference. They are also preoccupied with irrelevancies like "race" and, as you point out, have been successful in many instances in acting out that hate.

The past is history. It can't be changed. That isn't the question. The question is how to move FORWARD. How to move beyond obsolete concepts like "race" instead of falling into the trappings of them which have resulted and will continue to result in so much human misery until those concepts are rejected once and for all.

Is the way to fight the racism of the past through a counter movement of reverse racism and "black pride" and defacto self imposed cultural segregation? Is progress represented by attempts to justify black neo-racism by pointing out the past sins of white racists?

Have "white" people been killed out of racial hatred by "blacks"? Of course they have. When it happens, it sure doesn't get much press from the liberal media but it's happened and it continues. Are you stating that this has never happened?

I understand the reality of our country and of our past. But, as my mother said, two wrongs don't make a right. Our society will be a far better place when we learn that "race" is meaningless and that we have far more in common with each other than the shape of our noses, the texture of our hair, or the tone of our skin. Continuing to focus on those traits, as the NAACP and other "racist" organizations do, is not the way to the future. It's a continuation of a failed past.

Those who see "race" first and foremost and everything else second are "racists" in my book. The NAACP is just one organization that fits that bill. Yes, in some ways I see them as "worse" than the KKK and the others. Why? Because the NAACP has made racism "maintstream" and "socially acceptable". Nobody takes the Klan and the other groups seriously and no president would dream of inviting their leader to the White House for a "chat". Social acceptance of racism is not a positive force by any reasonable stretch of one's imagination.

You can resent that fact, but you cannot change it.

Actually, you are incorrect. The NAACP was founded to address the gross inequal treatment of, and unjust laws for people of color in this country. It is only based on the concept of "race" insofar as this deliniation was the one being made by the White institutions of the time. As far as I know, the NAACP itself, while being focused on civil rights, has always been open to members of any background or ethnicity. The bulk of their work, fighting for the rights of people with a shared set of "external superficial physical characteristics," was only such because of the society which enslaved and disenfranchised an entire people based only upon "external superficial physical characteristics."



Really? No different? Oh, let's count the ways....

1. I am white. I am a member of the NAACP. Nighttimer is black. Unlike me, he would never be allowed to join the KKK or the CCC.

2. The NAACP was formed to fight against a system which viewed all blacks as second class citizens, based purely on... a set of "external superficial physical characteristics!" Neo Nazi groups are based upon the premise of restricting civil rights for all citizens. They are based upon the idea of hate, where as the NAACP is based upon the idea of justice.

Those are stark enough differences, I'd say.



What you say is true; however (you knew there would be a caveat, didn't you?), couched in the context you are providing, this seems disingenuous at best. I mean, it's a nice sentiment and all, but let's not forget that the civil rights act in this country was only an embarrassingly short forty years ago. Sadly, this struggle is still ongoing, as so many people still have presumptive assumptions about people of color, based on nothing more than their "external superficial physical characteristics." It would be nice to move on; the NAACP is an organization that, I am sure, would love to make itself obsolete. However, one simply cannot deny that blacks in this country today still suffer from inequities. They are more likely to be charged with a crime; more likely to be convicted of a crime; more likely to be given jail time upon conviction; more likely to be sentenced to death row; receive, on average, less pay for equal work; have more trouble getting loans; pay higher interest rates for loans; pay higher prices for cars; the list, sadly, goes on.



No, and no. Thankfully, the foundation of the NAACP does not rest in these concepts. I don't know what more I can say about that spurious charge!



Of course it has happened. I'm not sure what "liberal media" you are referring to, though - perhaps the same one who relished tearing down Mr. Clinton for eight years, or maybe the same media whose majority of newspapers endorsed Mr. Bush in the 2000 election??

I did not get the impression that my colleague nighttimer was denying that black racism exists!



Well said! Of course, for this to really be a case of "two wrongs," blacks would have had to really be in charge and institute a system of apartheid under which whites had to live. Hasn't happened. And won't happen, because no one, black or white (outside of a few nuts) really wants that. So again, while I applaud your sentiment, it's misinformed. You are painting the redressing of the first wrong as a second wrong of somehow equal stature. Even perhaps problematic programs like affirmative action do not go anywhere near so far as to count as that "second" wrong!

1) What the heck is going on? (in regards to progress)

As lordhelmet's post shows, there is a prevailing feeling among many whites that 400 years of slavery and oppression have been somehow completely "disappeared" in the mere forty years since the Civil Rights Act was passed - apparently this balm erased all vestiges of institutional and cultural racism. As much as I wish this were the case, it is not. We often bandy about this idea of not paying for the sins of our fathers (our collective fathers, as it were), but really, we all do. It may not be fair, but we DO pay for the sins of our fathers, much the way a wealthy son, unearned except through the lottery of birth, inherets the wealth of his fathers.

I think that there are persuasive voices like Limbaugh and Horowitz who raise crops of rabid supporters by cleverly sowing the seeds of white-male victimhood. By repeating factoids (in the original sense of the word) and piecemeal statistics enough times, they become accepted as truths by people who want to find a reason to blame some "other" for their misfortune. Didn't get that promotion? Well, boy, thank the "feminazis" or the "race pimps" for that! Didn't get into the college of your choice? Must be because of Affirmative Action!

2) What do you personally feel must be done on and individual as well as social level to adress the situation of Afro-Americans in our society?

In the long run it won't be Affirmative Action or any other program that solves this. It will be time itself. It will be music and art and love that change us. It will be more and more mixed-race Americans. It will be the eventual minority status, not of whites, but of any people whose ancestry is of solely one ethnicity, that solves this. It will be the youth who grow up listening to Mos Def and Eminem, Fishbone and the Groove Collective, Femi Kuti and the Brand New Heavies, the Disposable Heroes of Hiphopricy and Manu Chao, who solve this. As Dr. King said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.

How can I resent "that fact"when you haven't bothered to present any. You replied at length with your opinion, lordhelmet, but you're sadly barren of even one genuine fact.

Let's just break down one paragraph:

"Those who see 'race' first and foremost and everything second are 'racists' in my book. The NAACP is just one organization that fits that bill." That is an opinion. Where are your facts to support it?

"The NAACP has made racism 'maintstream'(sic) and 'socially acceptable'. " Really? That's a fascinating observation but where is one single example to back it up?

"Nobody takes the Klan seriously..." The FBI takes the Klan seriously. The Southern Poverty Law Center takes the Klan seriously. And yes, the NAACP takes the Klan seriously. You don't take the Klan seriously and the fact that you don't take an armed band of militant racists seriously reflects a failure to understand what a white supremacist organization really is.

"You can resent that fact, but you cannot change it." I repeat: what fact? The only "fact" evident in your post lordhelmet is that you resent the NAACP for reasons you never quite explain. Fine and good. Resent them all you want. The NAACP has done more to advance civil rights and equality in America by accident than any conservative group you could try to name has done on purpose.

This board is called America's Debate. Not America's Opinion. A reason for that may be that debating an opinion is like punching smoke: there's not much there of substance. You can state your opinion lordhelmet, but not as it were a proven fact. An opinion may gain attention, but it won't win the debate.

Add a few facts to your assertion that the NAACP is a racist organization and maybe then we'll have something to debate. As it presently stands, you are just offering rhetoric without any evidence to support it.

Because of my Native American origins, I think I have a small insight on the race question.

Race is the number one way of describing someone, but race should not factor in to any equasion after that. This buying into 'someone (white) owes me' does nothing but promote cultural genocide. I'm tired of hearing about all the land was ours and how it was stolen.................I don't want to live in the past any more. The world is changing and I'm going forward.

I want a chance at a good education. I want a chance at a good job. I want to live where I want to live - or marry who I please. I DON'T want separate criteria. One set of rules for the whites and then a lower set of rules for blacks, indians, etc. That is a complete insult - and by going along with that, you are admitting you are inferior. I don't want to be a token.

We will always have racist idiots who think the only way they can be superior is making some other race/gender look small.

I took the liberty of snipping much of this to get right to the core of the issue.



My argument is that the NAACP has no intention of making themselves obsolete and as a result has degenerated into a race-baiting organization intent on maintaining and increasing their power. Their web page (www.naacp.org) claims that:

“Today, we face a renewed effort as the forces of racism and retrogression in America are again on the rise. Many of the hard-earned civil rights gains of the past three decades are under assault”

Really? Where? How? One would think that James Byrd's are being dragged through the streets of every city in America by white hooded racists.

You claim that blacks are more likely to be convicted of a crime? Well, the FBI statistics back you up on that one for sure. Here they are:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

The reality in America today is that black on white homicide rates are 7 times greater than white on black killings. Furthermore, those DOJ statistics show that 85% percent of "inter-racial" crime is perpetrated by blacks on whites. That's one inequality statistic that we sure need to address. And what does the NAACP have to say about this? Their silence is deafening. Oh, I'm sure that they are against all racism and all race motivated attacks perpetrated by people of "all ethnic backgrounds" as you suggest?

Want more? In .2002, in the same town of Jasper TX where Robert Byrd was horribly murdered, a white man named Ken Tillery, hitched a ride. He was given a lift by four black men who then murdered him after holding him hostage and then beating him. . Then he was run over and crushed to death. This was clearly a copycat crime in retaliation for Byrd's death. Did this savage crime result in a national outcry? Did the NAACP make any comment condemning this obviously racist attack on an innocent white person? No.

Want even more? You can check out Larry Elder's web page (www.larryelder.com). He's been tracking these attacks since he seems to be concerned that all racism is bad, not just that perpetrated on black people. Oh, and I don't think that the KKK will be interested in Elder signing up in their group anytime soon either.

The once noble NAACP has degenerated into a group that plays the race card on every hand. It's locked at the hip with the democrat party and with other liberal activist groups and does not hesitate to exploit, for political purposes, any injustice, real or imagined, against blacks while turning a blind eye towards similar racist behavior committed by blacks against others. In fact, this recent trend is even threatening to put their tax exempt status at risk. Source:

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/naacp29e_20041029.htm

You're right, the civil rights struggle was a mere 40 years ago. What happened in the past left a terrible stain on our country's history. But tremendous progress has been made and now it's time to reject groups like the NAACP who are stuck in a time warp and move forward, to "progress". You become what you focus on. The NAACP is focused on "race", first, second, and third. When "race" is your focus, race is what you see. What does the KKK focus on by the way? Economics? Technology? Geopolitics? If you answer that question honestly, then I will be starting to make my point.

If the NAACP continues on their current path, they'll be saying that "it's only been 60 years, and then it's only been 100 years....". The reality is that slavery could have lasted 50 years or 400 years or 1000 years and the end result would be the same. Ideas die with generations. It doesn't take 100 years to make a substantial change. It takes about 20. Our society can make massive change if we decide to do it.

40 years ago is a long time. 60 years ago we were in a death struggle with Japan and Germany (and Italy) who are now our strong allies. 40 years ago Space Travel was just goal and the idea that nearly every home would have a computer would have one labeled as a "kook". 40 years ago the thought of a unified Germany and a reformed USSR were lunacy. The same would be true if one contemplated a China incorporated into the free global economy and a rapidly growing trade with our former enemy Vietnam.

There are plenty of challenges facing the "black" community. I'm all for contributing to solutions. My issue is that groups like the NAACP aren't currently part of the solution, they're part of the problem.

In my view, part of the solution involves de-mphasis on the entire concept of "racial differences" and instead focusing on what we have in common, not what's different. That's the key to any "team's" success. If the NAACP really was interested in progress, not just exploiting the race issue for political gain, they'd be out front on the core issues of crime, teen pregnancy (70%+ among black girls), the destruction of the black family unit, and a culture that glorifies criminal attitudes and destructive behavior. Exactly the sort of things that Bill Cosby recently spoke out about.... over the silence of the NAACP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/195095p-168538c.html

The NAACP will change my opinion of them when they drop the scare tactics, as shown right now on their web page, and instead start using their prestige, which was earned in a much different time, to influence positive behavior among those who may take them seriously. When they do that, I will even join their group.

I'm not going to dwell overmuch on your examples of criminality and pathology in the African-American community, lordhelmet. If we got into a tit-for-tat match comparing Black anti-social behavior with that of White anti-social behavior, it wouldn't even be a contest.

Serial killers. Manifest Destiny. Slavery. The near-eradication of the Native American. Bringers of death, disease and destruction to the indigenous people of various countries. The Tuskeegee Experiment. Adolf Hitler. Josef Stalin. The dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Jack the Ripper. The Spanish Inquistion. Lynching. Despoilers of the environment. White collar criminals. Political corruption. The Salem Witch Trials. The assasination of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Watergate. The suppression and subjugation of women. The Final Solution.

If black criminals are vicious, violent and ruthless sociopaths, it would have to be said that they found in this country the best teachers in the world. But when it comes to criminality and evil acted out on a grand scale, the best blacks can be are talented amateurs. Whites have mastered the game.

The likes of a Larry Elder, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas and their ilk have always found their most receptive audience to be among white conservatives who enjoy hearing their thoughts put into words by blacks eager to curry their favor. They speak for themselves because the contemporary black conservative is most driven by their own personal advancement over that of their own race.

Not that there isn't a place for black conservatism. In an America where both conservative values and the Republican Party is on the ascent, it is a poltically astute tactic for blacks to have a prominent place at the table when decisions are made. While in another thread, you expressed your disdain for the sudden prominence of Senator Barack Obama, I can assure you that the absence of a African-American Republican in the Senate and House, speaks volumes about the inability of the GOP to field black candidates that can win white and black voters as Obama obviously did.

To your point that what happened 40 years ago was terrible and all, but now it's time to turn the page and move beyond being obsessed with race. Oh really? Says who? You? I don't think you're really qualified to make such a sweeping decision, lordhelmet. But don't worry...I'm not either. The difference is that I know I'm not.

It IS time to have a debate as to what the next step in advancing racial relations is, but I don't think that bold declarations that race no longer matters is a helpful first step.

Do you really think if blacks brutalize whites to the degree that whites have brutalized blacks it means we have reached some kind of "equality" in racial relations? God, what a miserable milestone that is. Are we going to set the bar so low that when blacks match whites in barbaric behavior that is how we know life is peachy and Dr. King's dream has been realized? That's just plain wrong. The worst of any group of people should not be the representatives of the best.

Does 40 years of fighting, bleeding and dying for civil rights and the resultant inconvience and irritation it causes conservatives mitigate the 400 years that preceded it? I don't think so. There is still work to be done, battles to be fought and victories to be won. The fact that it bugs white conservatives is unfortunate, but acting as if nothing's wrong is not a viable option.

I know for a fact that conservatism does not equal racism. Conservatives, as my compadre, Hobbes has pointed out, made it possible for the 1964 Civil Rights Act to be passed. If conservatives of conscience and good will had sat on the sideline then, the Dixiecrat Democrats would have won the day and the crown jewel of President Johnson's efforts would have been lost.

Here's a proposal: blacks should get off trying to guilt-trip and blame whites for problems they never caused, never benefited from and can't solve. Progress HAS been made and only a fool would say otherwise. Conservative, have to realize though that "personal responsibility" is a nice idea, but without real world solutions and options in place you're trying to tell someone to tie their shoes when they haven't even got up on their feet.

The anatomy of a good deal is where both sides give up something and neither gets exactly what they want. But who's going to make the first move?

Well, at least you didn't call Sowell, Thomas, and Elder Uncle Toms. I suppose that's progress.

What you also didn't do is address the specific points that I raised primary of which was my contention that the NAACP is part of the problem, not part of the solution with respect to race relations in the USA. I pointed out, with supporting evidence, that their claims to be concerned with race based attacks "on all ethnic backgrounds" is demonstrably false. I also pointed out that their scare tactic claims have no basis in reality. They are living in the past, not the current. If you listen to the NAACP, they paint the false picture that blacks are victimized and brutalized on a routine basis when exactly the opposite is the case. I also pointed out that their original mission has been subverted into political organization who uses the "race card" to advance liberal/democrat political goals, not necessarily the goals that the group was originally intended to promote and that they have largely ignored addressing the real issues that are addressing their "community" as pointed out by Bill Cosby.

With respect to your section on crime, I'm not even going to respond to that except to ask one question. Do the "racial" characteristic of a criminal absolve them of their accountability for their criminal behavior because of past world events? That's the implication I read into your words. If that's not the case, perhaps you could correct your meaning.

The issue is how to move forward, not how well we can recount past events in order to justify the current level of resentment. We have a choice.

We, as a society can continue the polarization of America and encourage the self inflicted segregation by black groups who want equality but at the same time refuse to join the larger society in many respects.

Or, we can move beyond race, consciously, and abandon the resentment, the hatred, and the suspicion that is based on something as superficial as race.

I'm glad you admit that you're not qualified to make such a bold pronouncement that the best way forward is to move beyond the concept of race. The tone and content of your posts and the animosity that you've directed toward me multiple times makes that abundantly clear.

But please don't tell me what I'm qualified to do, what I'm entitled to believe, or what I can propose is the most progressive way for this country. My "racial" characteristics are no less valid that yours. You have no idea of my personal history and my personal experiences. It's easy to get worked up and "hate" others for a wide range of reasons. The history of the world has taught us that. What's a lot harder, and a lot bolder, is to realize that resentment about past events limits the progress of the future and that moving past them is required for progress to occur.

In closing, what bugs "conservatives", such as myself at the end of the day, is that we believe that our way will bring more success to ALL Americans, independent of such inane characterizations such as "race" and that our efforts our routinely subverted, torpedoed, and undermined by those who claim to have the downtrodden's interests at heart, but who's actual track record is a tragic failure.

I didn't address your specifc points about the NAACP being a part of the problem because though you have moderated your tone in linking them with violent white supremacist organizations, you have demonstrated only that you have a strong antipathy toward their very existence. What am I supposed to address there? I have already granted you the premise that the NAACP has become too partisan and too identified with the Democratic Party. However, you see the organization as useless. I see it as useful. And there we are diametrically opposed with no middle ground in sight.



No. It doesn't absolve criminal behavior. It may however contribute to it.



Assimilation into the "larger society" has often served as a metaphor for "white society." That is not a goal that I strive for. To paraphrase James Baldwin, the only thing white people have that black people should desire is power and no one holds power forever. You regard race as superficial? Perhaps it is for one in the "larger society." For those of us not similarly blessed, race is still very much a reality. Getting beyond race is not accomplished merely because white people wish it would go away.



If you feel that I've been uncivil or disrespectful to you "multiple times" lordhelmet, then I would suggest you refer the offending remarks to a Moderator on this board for their interpretation. You give me more credit than I deserve. I haven't formed an opinion for you or against you. As of right now, you're just another guy on the board. I'm of the mind that you're confusing genuine animosity with plain speaking by a African-American man who speaks and writes in a blunt, candid and unflowery manner.



Likewise, I'm sure. Here is an excerpt from a column that I wrote in support of Dr. Willam H. Cosby's remarks. It didn't quite meet some people's expectations of what they had come to expect from me.

Violent, misgyonist rap keeps black folks stupid. Celebration of pimp, thug, and being a sociopath culture keeps black folks stupid. Drugs, alcohol and too much greasy, starchy foods keeps black folks stupid. A steady diet of trash TV, no books, no computers, and no library cards keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on immediate gratification, easy credit, and lack of fiscal discipline keeps black folks stupid. Too much emphasis on gold-capped teeth, $200 sneakers, tricked-out rides with the biggest rims, cell phones pressed to the ear, pit bull on a leash and pants hanging off the butt keep black folks stupid. Too much priority on being cool, getting paid and hustling instead of being smart keeps black folks stupid.




Resentment about past events limits future progress is a point I agree with. But I also believe that when you reject the injustices of the past in a cavalier and casual dismissal that you dishonor the past in a rush to move toward a more comfortable future. I've never favored reparations for slavery because of two reasons: 1. it isn't economically feasible or legally sound to compensate people who have not directly suffered from the crime of slavery. 2. It places a price on a crime for which there could never be adequate compensation and absolves the criminals that perpetuated it of their guilt.



The efforts of conservatives to remedy America's racial schism has been "routinely subverted, torpedoed and undermined" but usually by their own calculated decisions such as supporting apartheid in South Africa, tax credits for Bob Jones University, racial profiling, waging a racist "drug war," police brutality and treating African-Americans as inferiors instead of equals.

I'm just going to address two of your statements this time because they just jumped out at me.



Your so-called "racial identity" is self imposed in my opinion. White society? Give me a break. There are so many different cultural subgroups within what you lump together as "white society" that your premise is absurd. What you should be striving for (and aren't sadly) is to be part of our American society. We are BLESSED by having so many people with so many backgrounds, not cursed. The shame of it is that segregation in our country is self imposed, not created out of legal injustice. That's so misguided, so flawed, and so destructive that I started another thread just to discuss that element. Our American society has taken elements from a variety of cultures and traditions and melted them into our own. People from other cultures have come to this country with nothing. Looking different. Talking different. Non "white". Having been discriminated against, waged war against, you name it. But many of them "get it" when it comes to succeeding in America and it isn't through a self imposed system of apartheid. Models for success are all around. You should look for them. White people wish it would go away? Which "white" people? What are "white" people? Just who exactly are you talking about?



This section is a load of baloney in my opinion. South Africa? That country ended apartheid because of the USA, not in spite of it. And you're grossly oversimplifying the political situation in that country during that time.

Racist drug war? What evidence do you have for that? Do you think we should just eliminate laws against drugs? That would sure help things

Bob Jones University? Well, we give tax exempt status to other organizations that are obsessed with "race" too but we just got done discussing that one. What's your point?

Conservatives treat African Americans as "inferiors"? What are you talking about? Just saying it doesn't make it so. Where are your jounalistic references for those outrageous claims? That type of nonsense is just not helpful.

1) What the heck is going on? (in regards to progress)

2) What do you personally feel must be done on and individual as well as social level to adress the situation of Afro-Americans in our society?

3) Do you feel like we are moving forward or backwards over the last four years?


Progress, as far as assimilation / integration, is being made. I say assimilation, despite nightimer's assertation that this is a metaphor for 'white society'. I daresay you can't find much of genuinely American Culture that is not heavily influenced by 'Black' america, from food, fashion, music, etc. Likewise, mixed 'race' children are much more common, and more accepted, at least in predominately white areas. I know black children, at least in my area, are incredibly hard on biracial children. For whatever it's worth, 'race' is becoming more and more irrelevant each day. However, I fear that without fundamental change, black families will lag behind white families simply for the fact that, as of 140 years ago, black families had nothing. I think people underestimate the benefit 140 years of capital accumulation has for whites as a group. The advantages may have been squandered by some, never had by others, and may be slight overall, but pervasive.

2) I think we should address the concept of property, capital, land, and 'the commons' to equalize access to natural wealth, while encouraging economic use thereof, and reducing the burden of taxation from wages, productivity, and employment. Make firms pay for what they take but allow them to keep what they earn, so that competition drives meritocratic hiring and promotion rather than the old boy system. We should also work on elimating the concept of race from our government system: discrimination is the act of separating items by their characteristics, and while we might be pushing the pendulum in the right direction now, we won't be forever.

3) We're moving forward, especially since we have a new 'race' to serve as whipping boy. (grimace)

Land (natural wealth) access reform is a big big part of my political ideology. The long and short of it winds up taking chance out of earnings; what you make is yours by the sweat of your brow (brains or brawn). I think this alone would give children and young adults a better perspective on who they choose as role models.

http://www.progress.org/index.shtml

Something you have to understand is that the vast majority of young educated Americans destined to hold the reigns in American gov't and business had nothing to do with the civil rights movement, injustices done, and have little or no idea of what true racism entails. Being bitter and engendered with race is only a stepping stone that you must overcome. Frankly, I know plenty of successful black, hispanic, and native Americans here in the Dallas area that have absolutely wonderful lives that were earned without the aid of gov't intervention or social advantages "created" (i.e. affirmative action).

I also understand that we all have a different set of cards to play. It's easy to say that being a young, white, caucasian professional in the US fits a stereotype. I often get comments from co-workers and subordinates alike about my age and level of success, and how they suspect I was helped along (my parents paid for college, I knew someone, etc). Frankly, I along with many other success stories worked my way through college, paid off student loans by joining the Marine Reserves (and serving my country), and have earned every accolade that I enjoy. I have peers of all skin tones and demographics, and everything I earned was absolutely open to all races. No one at the LSU admissions office put up the "whites only" sign and you better believe that the Corps was happy to commission a college educated volunteer... and trust me, they didn't care what color I was.

What I'm basically saying is that your bitterness is your problem and will only hinder your future success. Generation Y in America didn't take part in the horrible racist parts of our nation's past, but are destined to lead the future. We haven't been part and parcel to the discrimination that you discuss. If affirmative action isn't enough, what is? Men and women of my skin tone would love to level the playing field, but we cannot single-handedly change socio-economics that we didn't create nor do we perpetuate (other than by allowing generations of apathy via the welfare system).

As a young white man that was raised in a state with one of the highest minority contents in the nation (Louisiana), I have a strong grasp on race relations and was raised in a less than caucasian dominated community. What I've found, nighttimer, is that the vast majority of success stories feel as if they had control of their destiny while those resentful of America's history tend to stick to mediocrity.

You mention people like Colin Powell (as many men of color do) and his conservative stature. Quite frankly, he also worked his way to the top, came from meager beginnings, and believes in the American dream.

Is it perfect? Of course not... nothing is. But your "glass-half-full" cynicism will never lead you where you want to go...

I deplore your use of negativity towards conservatives, as if we were the ones enslaving blacks or perpetuating the cycle of hate.

Nighttimer, lest we not forget the south during the civil rights movement was the hotbed of racism, and predominantly full of Democrats. Abraham Lincoln was a republican and the very one to get this civil rights idea moving. Don't forget that the most religious portion of America identifies with the "conservative" label, and often have much in common with the "african-american" community (I deplore the term "african-american"... who's from Africa?)

Finally, the idea that the color of someone's skin is never reason for apathy, complacency, and lack of success is absurd and will never prove to change anything. I don't know what "real world solutions" you propose, but let's discuss Native Americans, probably the most discriminated against group in America... or maybe Asians, whom were thrown into internment camps as recent as WWII... or maybe the Irish Catholics who were treated with more contempt than blacks (even in the south as recent as JFK). Why aren't they sitting up at night wondering how to pull their races from the throws of dispair? I suppose you're going to tell me that these folks didn't have it as bad and that the "majority" gave them a break... Frankly, I would venture to guess that they forced my parents and grandparents to respect their acheivement. It's hard to turn a blind eye on motivated people.

Quite frankly I'll never agree that gov't intervention is ever going to teach our youth to fend for themselves. "Social programs" have NOT worked. According to the NAACP and similar organizations, you'd think that we should dole out executive positions and college degrees. The very basis of capitalism is that the less qualified and less motivated get the shorter end of the stick... and, unfortunately, that some people are left behind. It's up to every parent to teach their children that this nation has more to offer than the way they were raised, and to hoist the bar with every generation. Our grandparents did it with their children, and our parents with us. Make education a priority regardless of your income level. Teach hard work and perservearance. Those, my friend, ARE conservative values.

Oh well, as Chuck D. used to say, "Here we go again."



Ah yes. Good ol' Abe. The man who set the Negroes free. Never mind the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually set one slave free. It sure was one helluva speech. But why do conservatives have to constantly dig up Lincoln as proof of how much they care about Negroes? The man has been dead for 140 years now. Isn't there at least one current, living Republican with a sterling and progressive reputation on civil rights?

Lest we forget, Lincoln also said this:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. (emphasis added)

http://www.bartleby.com/251/41.html

So you'll have to understand that I don't melt like butter at the invokingoof the name of Abraham Lincoln. A great president? Yes. The patron saint of Negroes? No.



Pray elucidate aevans176, what exactly it is the "most religious portion of America" has in common with the "african-american" community? A shared opposition to same-sex marriage based on religious dogma and homophobia? I'll grant you that. What else you got?

And while you "deplore the term 'african-american,' it is a popular and widely-accepted term for a group of people who have historic roots in Africa. You don't have to be from Africa to reflect pride in the historical ties to the continent. Just ask Teresa Heinz Kerry.



There's no "probably" about Native Americans. They were almost exterminated from their own country by the invaders. I've read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, so you're not going to me into a "ouch contest" between blacks and Indians. Irish Catholics more discriminated than blacks? You'd have to make a pretty convincing case to sell that one. I don't recall anything like the Middle Passage, the Dred Scott decision or Jim Crow segregation being directed against Catholics. Yes, they certainly suffered discrimination for their religious faith. I can't deny that. But even the Ku Klux Klan has dropped Catholics from their list of people they hate (Jews and blacks still being high on the list).

Nor would I suggest that the majority gave anyone a break. If anything can be said about oppressed groups of people in America it is that they have never been given jack from a "majority" acting out of goodness and mercy. Every right that has been won in this country from the 40-hour work week to the civil rights movement has been paid for in blood, sweat and sacrifice.



That's okay. Your agreement isn't necessary, aevans176. The existence of the black middle class didn't magically happen. Affirmative action programs, grants, student loans and other programs have made it possible for blacks to fully participate in the American Dream.

No credible advocate of civil rights has EVER said that excutive positions and college degrees should be doled out to blacks and other racial minorities and the burden of proof is upon you aevans176 to prove otherwise.

I mention Colin Powell because I respect Colin Powell, admire Colin Powell and would be thrilled if my son were to achieve half the success Colin Powell. His politics differ from mine, but it in no way diminishes how highly I regard him. Not the least is because he has never given up his pride as a black man or hesitated to speak truth to power as he did during the 2000 Republican National Convention:

We must understand, my friends, we must understand that there is a problem for us out there. We must understand the cynicism that exists in the black community, the kind of cynicism that is created when, for example, some in our party miss no opportunity to roundly and loudly condemn affirmative action that helped a few thousand black kids get an education, but you hardly hear a whimper when it's affirmative action for lobbyists who load our federal tax code with preferences for special interests. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You can't make that case.

http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/...ts/u000731.html

Colin Powell "gets" it. It's a shame that so many in his party do not.



What you describe as "bitterness" aevans176 is instead what I call a unsentimental rejection of your skewed version of American history and the condition of how race is lived in America now. You may be sincere with your anecdotal rememberances of your life in Lousiana and your grasp on race relations, but it really has zero-minus-zero on MY reality, thank you very much. You presume that you have something to give African-Americans? No. You don't. The only thing you can do for African-Americans is to get out of their way and allow them to control their own destinies and make their own decisions.

Generation Y is deluding itself if it believes that its youth means it is exempt from the history of its elders. Generation Y didn't take part in the Middle Passage, the Trail of Tears, or the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean that the damage caused by the sins of the fathers aren't visited upon the sons.

It is not incumbent upon white people of any political philosophy to lower the number of out-of-wedlock birth rates, reduce the plague of drug and alcohol addiction, spousal abuse, dysfunctional families or false values that plague black people. Only black people can heal their own illnesses of the body and soul. But they don't need white people to make that healing more difficult.

Your definitions of success aren't necessarily the same as mine, aevans176 My life is hardly lived obsessed by race. I recognize it, deal with it accordingly and move on. James Baldwin said, "The power of the white world is threatened whenever a black man refuses to accept the white world's definitions. " How I live might not meet your standard of success, I'm not wasting any time wishing that I woke up with Donald Trump's life, money or comb-over.

Fight the power. By any means necessary. Sho' nuff. Ya dig?

1. Of which "elders" of generation Y do you speak? "White" ones? People who had direct descendents who were even IN this country during the time of slavery? Well, you'll just need to be more specific. Was it the elders on my mom's side who were persecuted by the British or the elders on my dad's side who were persecuted in Eastern Europe by two separate German Reich's and neither of whom were even in the USA until the mid 1900's? Who are you specifically holding accountable for your "people's" past? And while you are at it, how old are YOU? Are you in your 20's? 30's? 40's? Were you even ALIVE when these historical events occurred?

2. Again, what is your definition of "white"? And, while you're at it, what is your definition of an "African American"? My good friend looks pretty much like a guy you'd call "brother" (and is probably darker than you), yet his wife looks like someone you'd call "white". What does that make their two kids in your eyes? What about my nephew who just married a woman who you'd likely call "sister" and who has a baby on the way? What would you call that child? "White"? Black? Some obscenity? Which narrow eugenic classification would you place on these human beings to fit your "undistorted" history? As I stated in a prior post, your broad brush classification of human beings into narrow eugenic classifications is absurd. And, it's racist too.

3. Why can't Americans of ANY ethnic or political background be concerned about the horrific problem of out of wedlock births, crime, drugs, and low educational levels? Are you living in a separate country than we are? Are Americans not entitled to care about what occurs in our country?? Why are you implying that segregation is the preferred order of our country? Do you have any idea how destructive the history of that idea is?

Racism is a problem that needs to be addressed in the United States. I've offered some potential ideas. I see you haven't. You've only put out propaganda of the type that one hears from hucksters like Sharpton and Farakhan. If you have ideas, I would sure like to hear them though. I've scanned your posts and have found a lot of rants against "whites", "conservatives", and "republicans". Frankly, if you replace the words "black" and "white" in your posts, it sounds a lot like what you can read on David Duke's web page..... but he's not a racist, right?

You claim that you are not "obsessed with race". I suggest that your words speak otherwise, loudly, and in volumes.

Peace

I don't respond to personal attacks lordhelmet. I would suggest that you scroll back to the top of this thread and remember this thread is about "Afro-American Futures." Not, "I disagree with everything Nighttimer says."



I dunno. I don't read David Duke's web page. Apparently, you do. So you tell me.

Please don't try to hijack this thread and try to make me the subject of this thread. I don't have any interest in engaging in a flame war with you. All you'll end up accomplishing is getting the thread closed.

And my skin color is quite frankly none of your business.

I simply requested "clarification" from you.

I'll be simple and to the point.

You have used the terms "whites", "blacks", "african americans" and "elders" who are responsible for the past.

What, specifically, in detail, do you mean by those "definitions".

Thank you.

This statement seems to opposed affirmative action, set-asides, and preferential treatment, while requiring individual accountability and responsibility for consequences of choice. I back this 100%.

I'm not opposed to the goals of affirmative action, i'm opposed to the act of discriminating, based on superficial 'race', in order to determine who benefits from affirmative action. I think similar goals could be reached by lessening the length, depth, and effects of poverty. Part of which, due to my personal understanding of economics, leads me to support some of the programs backed by the GOP. Namely, social security reform: a poor family that relies on social security through retirement leaves nothing for the next generation, whereas a poor family with some form of savings can leave something for the next generation to use for education, a downpayment on a home, or to squander as they see fit.

What IS important for me, in my goal to advance a real free-market agenda, is to remove the "affirmative action for lobbyists who load our federal tax code with preferences for special interests." before we remove the programs that help individuals go from being dependent on welfare to being self-sufficient. I just don't like the idea of race being used to determine who gets what.

I truly believe that affirmative action, and the like, have set the African American community back: witness the 332nd fighter group, Howard University, black scientists and intellectuals such as Benjamin Banneker, G.W. Carver, Frederick Douglass, et al. All of these were realized before the onset of AA. Since AA we've not seen a black role model that wasn't an athlete or an entertainer. Those blacks that have achieved success and respect of the world at large (e.g. Colin Powell) are seen by many blacks as being too 'white". (I am hopeful about the recent success of Senator Obama). I think AA was useful for a time, but overt racism is now taboo, and AA should be ended.

Excellent point. If conservatives wish to work with minorities, it seems obvious that will certainly require much more than pointing back to someone from the past, and actions taken over 140 years ago...or even 40. There must be current works, and planned future actions.



I believe that, in general, African Americans and other minorities have strong ties with conservative beliefs--but that the Republican party presents issues which cloud that foundation. We could debate this in more detail if needed, but I think minority groups do tend to be 'conservative' in basic issues.



I would like a little clarification of your position here, if I could. Are you advocating 'equal' rights programs, and indicating that 'special' priveleges should not be required (I may not be wording this properly, but hopefully you will get the gist of my question)? If so, I would agree, as this gets to the heart of my disagreement with some of the programs I see being advocated by minority groups. I recognize that minorities are often not given equal treatment, and that programs/laws need to be put into place to rectify that. But, when it comes to giving preferential treatment to minority groups, I think this runs the risk of creating more of the very prejudice such programs seek to eliminate.



I would agree with the sentiment you highlighted in his speech, but would like to focus on another passage, as it points to a crucial philosophical difference in how conservates approach civil rights, and why that difference must be understood in order to measure progress (ie, the 'what have conservatives done for civil rights lately?' question)

"Overcoming the cynicism and mistrust that exists, and raising up that mantle of Lincoln, is about more -- it's much more about than just winning votes, it is about giving all minorities a competitive choice.

They deserve that choice. And if we give them that choice, it will be good for our party. But above all, it will be good for America, and we need to work to give them that choice.

Good for America -- that must be the measure for all that we do.[I]"

Conservatives, in general, are going to prefer laws/programs that follow this standard...which seek to address general issues rather than target laws/programs at specific groups. Therefore, you might not see any large initiative geared specifically at a minority group...or even at all of them. Rather, you would (or should, anyway) see programs that seek to give everyone, regardless of race, an equal footing. Therefore, it is harder to point to specific programs to show how conservatives are indeed addressing minority concerns--since the programs are geared at everyone, not just minorities. This makes it harder to find any flag-bearer for demonstrating how conservatives are improving at addressing the concerns of minorities...and also points to why minorities are sometimes so swayed to the Democratic Party. The Democratic party does believe, IMHO, in programs that address specific groups...and therefore has something more specific to offer them. The question, then, to me, becomes whether minorities want special treatment, or want to be treated equally (which is why I requested clarification on your statement above--it addresses this question).

QUOTE

Colin Powell "gets" it.  It's a shame that so many in his party do not.

Yes, I would agree...but would say that many, many more in the party do now than did before.

QUOTE

What you describe as "bitterness" aevans176 is instead what I call a unsentimental rejection of your skewed version of American history and the condition of how race is lived in America now.

Yes, this is a good point.

QUOTE

You presume that you have something to give African-Americans?  No.  You don't.  The only thing you can do for African-Americans is to get out of their way and allow them to control their own destinies and make their own decisions....It is not incumbent upon white people of any political philosophy to lower the number of out-of-wedlock birth rates, reduce the plague of drug and alcohol addiction, spousal abuse, dysfunctional families or false values that plague black people.  Only black people can heal their own illnesses of the body and soul.  But they don't need white people to make that healing more difficult.

Your definitions of success aren't necessarily the same as mine, aevans176  My life is hardly lived obsessed by race.  I recognize it, deal with it accordingly and move on.

I respect this statement very much.

QUOTE

Generation Y is deluding itself if it believes that its youth means it is exempt from the history of its elders.  Generation Y didn't take part in the Middle Passage, the Trail of Tears, or the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean that the damage caused by the sins of the fathers aren't visited upon the sons.

While I can't argue with this, I think the issue is how to address it without causing further harm (ie, creating more prejudice)?

QUOTE

I think a distinction must be made between the 'white world' and the 'business world.' While I won't argue that the latter is dominated, at least currently, by whites, it is often not a 'white' world. What I mean by this is that business is business, and the power of money generally trumps any inherent prejudices. It also has its set of standards and expectations...which are adaptable, but for which those that don't conform are not given the opportunities of those that do. Whites also have to conform to these standards. Granted, whites set the standards, so many of them might be easier for us to conform to...but we're just as outcast if we don't (consider the prejudice against overweight or 'ugly' people). Why I bring this up, is that (and this is just my opinion) I think that other minorities seem to be more willing to conform, in general, than blacks and this is why they seem to have progressed farther. For example, I don't see the equivalence from other minority groups of 'Black Pride'. There are probably numerous cultural reasons for this, which would certainly be a separate discussion. Or, I might be completely off-base in this opinion....but I would appreciate your comments on it.

Do I have something to give "African-Americans" Nighttimer? First I'll address your previous reference to the African-American sentiment and your reference to Teresa Heinz-Kerry... umm... she IS from Africa! Calling a whole race of people "African-Americans" is as absurd as calling me an English-American. My ancestors came here long after slavery, as did many Americans' families. The black culture in America is no more African than I am British. Take a trip to the continent and see how absolutely near-sighted the comment is. The only thing the majority of black people associate with Africa is their skin color. This is as true as I am nowhere near a "Euro-American"... truly. I've actually been to Africa sir, and it nowhere resembles our nation or its people. I was in Somalia for 6 weeks as I was also in Egypt for 10 days. Neither time did I ever feel as if the people there resembled anyone here in my our wonderful country.

Secondly, in reference to white people giving "something to african-americans" is precisely the problem. We should'nt have to give anything to anyone. If you really believe that we should get out of the way of "african-americans" and allow them to make their own decisions, why not elminate affirmative action? Why have preferencial treatment in reference to educations? Really... what do you think the NAACP would say if we stopped the gravy train... hmm.... Being a Marine, a graduate of a state college, and a young professional I understand that everyone has their hurdles, but these steps are in place to "lower" the hurdles for some...

Thirdly, in reference to damage caused by "sins of the fathers", please pray tell, tell me what damage you experience. How exactly has America descrimintated against you? Is it skin color or attitude/motivation that stops people from getting to where they want to be in life? Frankly, I'd bet the latter in nearly all cases.

White people making it more difficult? Why.. because people like me call out the apathetic, the complacent, and the un-motivated for what they/who they are?
Socio-economics is the issue at hand here, Nighttimer, as are Maslow's hierarchy of needs and cultural values. As long as people teach their children that being black means things are going to be more difficult, I believe that this cycle will remain.

Finally, back to native-americans. I am 1/4 Native American, and spent large amounts of time with my grandmother who was good ol' 100% "Indian" as she preferred to be called. Frankly, she never felt like her successes and failures fell upon the ignorance of the few. She lived in the deep south for the majority of her life where racism ran rampant and biggotry was taught like religion. Why don't Native Americans spend time talking about the difficulty they have getting jobs? Why don't they have rallies and talk about "discrimination"? I'll tell you... Pride, and an extremely strong work ethic. These are values that envoke respect regardless of your skin tone... it's also no secret that the vast majority of Native Americans not living on reservations are Conservatives....

And what about the rest of the conservative values such as more EMPOWERMENT
to corporations.

Tax cuts for the wealthy.
Limiting medical liability claims. (I guess the poor can't sue even when they get bad medicine)
Eliminating affirmative action
Cutting corporate dividends
demonzing those who don't agree with the conservative agenda (REAL MORAL VALUES! )

Do these sound like programs or ideas that will benefit or even help minorities. And conservatives wonder why many minorities don't flock to their party. It doesn't take a genius to know that many minorities benefited from these programs and still benefit from these programs.

Just because we no longer live according to the ways endorsed by old white America in the 1950s, 60s etc. doesn't mean racism has been resolved.
If you want to hear solutions, here are a couple for starters:

1) Keep the programs in place that have benefited many minorities. The only changes that need to be made is to have more restrictions in place to weed out the bad apples.

2) Conservatives need to understand that you can't walk on both sides of the
fence. You can't say the past is the past and yet when I look at the Republican Party, endorse organizations or schools such as Bob Jones University.
Nobody seems to mind that President Bush got into Yale because of his father.
Don't believe me, check out this site:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jan03/112130.asp


And conservatives say get rid of affirmaive action?? would you like whip cream with the cake and ice cream.

The problem is that many Americans don’t have even a clue about these contributions. I’ll use music as an example. Chuck Berry has undoubtedly had more influence (or better, been copied by more rock musicians) than any man in history. Yet years ago a young white lad, upon hearing him the first time exclaimed, “Man that cat sounds just like Commander Cody!” Then I remember a young lady calling up K-LUV (the local oldies station in the Metroplex) and requesting that song about Beethoven that John, Paul, George and Ringo wrote. The DJ had difficulty explaining, that while Lennon andn McCartney had written many songs, they didn’t write that one. Then someone crowned Elvis “King of Rock ‘N’ Roll,” a title that can be disputed just as Benny Goodman’s title, “King of Swing” can also be challenged. I could provide other examples, but this one serves to make the point.

I don’t care for the term "assimilation." It suggests that the smaller group is or should somehow be swallowed up (or should allow itself to be swallowed up) whole by the larger group. I think the word “synthesis” better describes what you are talking about.

I deem it necessary to reply to your whole post!!! This is going to be a good one... why all the conservative bashing on this board? ? ? ?

1. Why are there about 10 references to Bob Jones U on this board? Until I read about it today, I had no idea what this place even was... AND I'm a staunch republican.
2. Getting admitted into universities based upon LEGACY is common practice, even at Harvard, William and Mary... your precious Hampton University, Georgetown, etc, etc.
It's a way the universities keep the donations rolling in. If a high rolling booster is donating large amounts of money to a university to that his/her children cannot attend... how long do you think the checks will come in?
3. Affirmative action at Universities based simply on racial preference hasn't proven effective in graduating more minority students. In fact, the Stanford Law review thinks otherwise... it surely does bump deserved students.
4. Limiting malpractice suits is simply a measure to keep the actions relative to the compensation. The vast majority of malpractice suits don't even involve negligence. Read as much as you can... please. Realistically these are generally "ambulance chasing" suits that denegrate both the reputations of the plaintiff as well as the litigators. All the limits would do is keep the suits limited to those that really deserve them. Doctors are a whole lot like mechanics, and unfortunately, even though they do their best... things do awry. Negligence, however, should be pursued.
5. Tax cuts... wow, you all will never let up. The tax cuts predominantly went to small business owners, the back bone of the US economy. However, they also went to the American middle class. NO-they weren't really extended to people below the poverty level as they nearly pay no taxes in the long run anyway... what should we do, give them money they didn't even pay in??
6. Demonizing people that don't fall into "conservative values"? That's not true at all... but it's impossible to stand behind some liberal leaders and their characters such as Bill Clinton or John Kerry. Read the book by Clinton'