A public holiday is merely a holiday. What any free individual chooses to do on that day - whether it be setting up nativity scenes or having a wild hedonistic orgy in the back yard or worshipping a big blue space moose is up to them.

Public holidays in most countries have some historical relevance to them. Having Christmas as a holiday harks back to the Christian roots of the first American settlers (even though Christmas itself is based on the older pagan festival of Yule, which was appropriated by the early Christians).

No one HAS to remember Christ on Christmas - but it is a day when the majority of Americans would like to. Therefore, if you are going to have public holidays, then Dec 25th would be a sensible time to have one, as it co-incides with the desire of a large segment of the population to remember Christ.

However, it becomes an issue if people would like to take another day off for religious reasons and are prevented from doing so. In which case, the answer may be to allow everyone a set number of days for (say) religious holidays but not to determine when they have to take them. So Christians could take Dec 25th off as their religious holiday, but people of other religions could save up that holiday and use it on a different day.

Nothing has changed! America is still a Christian nation; Japan and Korea have Buddha’s. I’m American, I’m secular but our nation is a Christian nation so why be polite for it? Would you demand Buda holidays be removed if you moved to Japan or Korea? Of course you wouldn’t, you went there not under force to a Buddhist nation; you knew they were Buddhist when you went there. If that doesn’t make sense then read it slow out loud in a high voice several times. So you should not feel politically correct challenged to display your manger scene any more than a Japanese would display Buddha’s.

Well! I think it provided significant basis for reasoning that Jefferson just didn’t want to pick a single denomination from the Christian religions to back. We are a Christian nation without a state support for any particular denomination of that religion. If you read anything more into that it must be solely based on personal reasoning and interpretation of something unwritten.

This entire debate is based on a false premise, that being that Christmas is a Christian holiday. If you look at the history of it, it was a holiday long before Christianity even existed. A good link can be found here. The opening paragraph is a good summary:



So, with that in mind, I'm not really sure where the drive to get rid of Christmas comes from. It is much more of a tradition than it is a religious holiday. Are we now so far down the PC path that we can't even keep any of our traditions? If so, where exactly does this stop?

I agree. We just have to accept the Christmas holiday as it has become which is a commercialized traditional holiday. For Christians, it is a time to reflect on the birth of Christ as we should everyday. I'm really just disgusted of how the media just wants to take the real meaning of Christmas away and put the focus on material wealth.



I think you made a good point in your post OlSarge. However, as a Christian I don't agree with your assertion that America is a Christian nation because of what the Bible teaches about a Godly nation. God's kingdom is spiritual not physical. If America was a Christian nation, there will be a concrete effort by our government to end poverty, no promoting violence and war, no sex on the TV.

The scripture reads in 1 Peter Chapter 2: 7-21:




This scripture is talking about those who chose to follow Christ and how they should conduct themselves. Just because you have a country where people claim to believe in Jesus doesn’t mean it’s a Christian nation.

James Chapter verse 12:



The scripture I just posted shows you that our country is NOT a godly nation because we do not obey everything the scriptures tells us to do. As I said before, God’s nation is spiritual.

The very assertion of Christmas not being a celebration of faith is laughable. Christmas was established as the offical celebration of the birth of the Christian Savior Jesus Christ. As explained before, those pioneering the early Church attempted to make the conversion simpler for life-long Pagans by making the official celebration the 25 of December because it was the day already celebrating as the birthdate of the Pagan God of the Sun.
To even claim Christmas is not a promotion of faith is short-sighted. The supposed God of modern-day faith was ceded to be celebrated on this day. Correct in terminology I assumed that God is in a religious context, by which making December 25 a holy observance. Since the government endorses, promotes, and celebrates this observance of religion it is the duty of the people to hold true to the Constitution and remove aspects of an influence in the beliefs and practices of the people. Those who allowed secular division to rip at the seams of government were weak and met no opposition. Times have changed and the narrow-minds that once controlled the government have changed with them.
God was established as a platform for politicans in the earliest and darkest days of history. Now, God is ruling the narrow-minds who insist on breaking the foundings of freedom of religion by letting his "Son" ruling Christmas. Jesus Christ is part of the Trinity, a religious icon, and it is his birth some celebrate on the 25 of December. Christ is the symbol of a religion, Christmas is his established "birthday." The celebration of a religious icon's birthday is Unconstitutional and in direct violation that no religion shall be promoted or sponsored by the government.

Well I’m not religious but I’ve been around since dust and when I was growing up the tree had a star or an angel on top of it, the gifts were explained as gifts the three kings gave to the baby Jesus since you were a child of God you cashed in too. The first sprouts from a pine or spruce tree in the spring form the shape of a crucifix.

Here in Puerto Rico the original observance of the gift day is January 6th, the day the three kings finally got to the baby Jesus with the gifts. Here we celebrate both Christmas and Three Kings Day, the kids are off for a month for the holidays. Everyone with the exception of me and maybe a couple others are Christians, there is no separation wall and from Ricky Martin to the ugly Puerto Rican guy who killed the star in the movie Ghosts wears gold crosses or other religious saints symbols around their necks every day.

I find the “new America” of political correctness worrying about atheists and other religions feelings as strange as those same Americans that blame America for everything wrong in the world today.

A nation may be Christian without the government following the gospel the same as Japan government being Buddhist without following strict Buda concept. The fact is our nation is the people and the majority of the people are Christians. If you don’t believe me check out the debate on the God theme I opened in the Current Events and Headline News forum.

I see...so, we celebrate the birth of Christ by killing trees and engaging in a materialistic orgy? I'm sorry, but if anything is laughable, that would have to be it. All of these traditions were established before Christ was injected into it. Further, I know a great many people who do not practice Christianity but who do celebrate Christmas. If Christmas is indeed just a religious holiday....what are they celebrating?

I am not arguing that there is a religious component to it, or that a great many people do view it as a religious holiday. But I think that if you removed all the religious connotations from it...we'd still have Christmas. It is much more of a tradition now than anything else....just as it was before the time of Christ.

Christmas was not given it's name for nearly three hundred years after the death of "the Messiah." It had no meaning to anyone other than European Pagans celebrating the birth of the Sun God. The tie-ins that became famous were the religious theming of God. I will not defend my point by repeating what has all ready been stated; rather, I shall make an observation.
The government assured the people the freedom to follow what ever path of faith they wished to walk? True? Then, why would Christmas be a holiday in any way endorsed by the government? It has religious theming: is not the celebration of the supposed birth of a deity a religious observance?
I need not an answer to know that my remarks were not read in full entirety or context. It is shameful that the very questions of this forum have been forgotten; to keep it simple: faith was injected into the vain of celebration and masked by the old Church Masters to be a celebration of Jesus' birth, as known this "celebration" mocks the belief that Pagans were not to be associated with. When this form of worship was brought to America our Founding Fathers went against their supposed "Moral Code" by even allowing Christmas to exist, it is a direct impediment on the rights ordained by our Constitution.
Christmas challenges the right to let the people worship freely by directing them toward Christianity because Christmas seems to be the only holiday that our government has ever supported. How can we have a government who preaches free practice of a religion but celebrates a specific religious function? It is a scandal, it is worthy of no other name because the government has broken their own promises to the people whom they professed to love.

Perhaps you overlooked some information a few posts back in posts #98 & #102 where I clearly explaind how this could happen.

Edited to remove repeated word "explained" & removing condescending attitude wording. Please forgive my absence of PC I’ve been away from America half of my life.

I have disregarded no information in my on-going attempt at explanation and clarification. I appreciate your candor and your concern however, I have all ready affirmed the point that though Christmas may not be manufactured by government it is used as a pedestal to promote their supposed religion. Faith means many things to different people, while some may have a religious view others have totally different stand points.
I have had faith my entire life that religion divides; Christmas now is being used as a weapon of division. Christmas is the best attempt at faith employs of the government can come up with. Out of fear of being different they all pretend to be pleased that Christmas is the only celebration accepted by a blind people. After reflection I have asked myself how many of our Presidents have been of a different religious upbringing than Christianity? I do not need an answer for the answer is in the question.
For those in government to use Christmas as a pedestal shows that it is no longer a divine celebration but a platform of conformity. We as people should question their motives, and the motives of anyone who promotes this holiday. It was said that no one religion shall be impressed upon the likes of the people, but by Christmas being the only mold for convention allowed I find myself in a most interesting position. I say that all holiday's of religious founding or religious importance need be abolished and removed as a Federal/Public holiday because it directly is affecting and destroying the very fabric that sows our country together.

Perhaps this information will provide some insight of our nations religious history as a nation that supports the concept of Christmas as a holiday and the thought that went into the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
Bush Affirms U.S. Commitment to International Religious Freedom
http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/shanghai...0118/epf207.htm

I still can’t understand your concern for minority beliefs since our nation is a Christian nation and welcomes all persons, religious or not. But it welcomes them to the Christian nation of America.

To agree with your concept of Christmas in relation to the government I would also have to agree to bulldoze all the crosses from Arlington National Cemetery. Non-Christians did not come kicking and screaming to America to be changed to Christians. They came knowingly with full knowledge whatever religious faith or lack thereof would not be a factor of freedom. Christmas isn’t a government endorsement of a religion; it is a celebration or our nations base of Christianity verses Buddhism.

A rather interesting concept of knowledge and concept of understanding you present. It is not what the people do it is what the government tells them to do. Long ago when the freedoms were being spelled out to the people of America a right of freedom to religious worship became deeply entrenched. Since that day the practices of no one have been questioned. Except in this young nation we are now at a crossroad. We are meeting fully the people's will and unity by testing the freedom's to religious worship and ideology.
Also, your claims that America is a "Christian" nation are false. No where are we given the religion of Christianity that we must accept and worship. America's motto is not "One nation under the Christian God." We have no obligation to be submitted to beliefs of the Christian's. Nor should we, because we were promised the freedom without impeachment of our personal beliefs. The minority of America are those who think and see things clearly. Religion in governmental hollidies is illegal, but people still accept this illegal practice though it is a violation of our Constitution.

Why do you think we are at a crossroad?

Let me first say at the time of the forming of the Constitution there was probably more difference of opinion than there is today about government and religion. Intellectuals ruled everything and if you look at many things in the Constitution the “intellectuals” were supposed to protect the government and the ignorant from themselves. Many checks were put in place, like the appointment of Senators, the Electoral College where the people were minimized to a learned intellectual. The enlightenment period was in its final bloom and angel wings were becoming smaller and smaller, but religious fervor was alive and kicking. I’m sure in my heart that some of the founding fathers wanted a secular government, but they were in such a minority it was impossible because of the strength of religious factions. The first amendment was truly a compromise to ensure one of the stronger denominations didn’t take over the government as had happened in Europe.

You have to read George Washington’s farewell speech! It is there you can see the truth that the nation would not have had its beginning had it not been for his ability to go into the countryside and rally Christians of like values to fight for independence. I lived fifteen minutes from his home plantation when stationed in VA and visited it and saw his slave quarters and the bed he slept in. Growing up in WV I lived just a few miles away from Harpers Ferry WV where secular insurgents started the Civil War. A lot has changed since the beginning of our nation; democrats were the ones who started the KKK for example.

The facts are bothersome though that America was founded on “common law” that allows for the majority to change law as society changes. The majority then and now has and will always be Christians and there is no denying that fact. Because of this common law the majority is supposed to decide change but in the case of church and state and other “laws of the land” it has been judicial who interpreted the spirit and intent as you do that made change. To do that is UNAMERICAN! Please read the thousands of hours of research that went into the link mentioned in post #98 and you will learn we are a nation of citizens under “common law” and not “Roman law” where the judiciary makes up laws as it goes along.

Perhaps Ophra Winfree or some oh’s or ah’s in the background sounds of a South Park episode have convinced you otherwise but facts will continue to prove you wrong when it comes to the founding of our nation. I’m not Christian but I’m not ready to bulldoze the Arlington National Cemetery crosses down. The majority just isn’t there or with you!

It is most comforting to know that each village is still keeping up with the old tradition. I find your grasp of the facts refreshing. Of little consequence to yourself and others I have first-hand experienced the indifferences of our nation and the politics of many. I have not only read but I have studied the speech given by George Washington. Adversity had little impact on the creation of bylaws for our land since the only goal of our Founding Father's was freedom. It was not taxes, it was not a system of banking, it was simply freedom; and each day a piece of our freedom is ripped away.
Our country is far from a Christian nation, if it were so there would be no "capital punishment," weapons research, or even television. For television outlets non-Christian raging and hatred. Your claim that more diversity of opinion was common when the shaping of our nation was taking effect is amusing. It suprises me, for you are obviously not a complete claude, that you believe the people desire such horrors in their daily activities that difference in opinion brings. If our Founding Father's had not celebrated Christmas, I would go so far as to say breaking the law, then this debate would be of no value.
For the men who shaped America broke their own law, something they believed as sacred as any religion, they promoted a religion, a specific religion. The first administration of the office of President set a precedent in all things that they did: Washington, by only staying two terms he set an example. It became a custom that Christmas become the unoffical holiday of the government. It was used for political gain and advertisement. My views are not sparse or as remote as my colluge may believe. Turn on the news! View what your country has to say on the supposed Christian land that you claim we all live in.

Well, how did you come to all of your conclusions? Why not join in on the debate referred to in post #98? Facts and references for you discomfort and concern would be persuasive and possibly change my position on the issue.


What Christian nation are you comparing America to when you say, “Our country is far from a Christian nation, if it were so there would be no "capital punishment," weapons research, or even television.”? First, I think you have no idea of the Old Testament of the Bible, and neither do I but I do remember “eye for and eye” and the like. While I’m totally opposed to the death penalty you probably wouldn’t like what I would do with a convicted murder either. Death is too easy! I would sentence them to be Quakers for the remainder of their lives in the Alaska Wildlife Reserve at no taxpayer expense in a commune or some frozen island off of Alaska. What opposing non-Christian punishment could you justify? You are wrong, I’m a complete claude if you mean (clod), I’m a hayseed from West Virginia but if you mean Claud Debussey the French composer I’m far form him, but you just don’t have any facts to prove you are no less claude (clod) than I am. So please don’t defame me with French connotations if that was your intent. Well, if you want to you may because my feelings are really hard to hurt.


In the former paragraphs you use the words, “our Founding Father's “, “Our country is far from a Christian nation” and in this paragraph you follow with words, “View what your country has to say on the supposed Christian land that you claim we all live in.”, so which is it our country or my country? America is a grouping of countries equal to the European Union formed to serve certain specific purposes. Your reading into the supreme authority of the founding fathers is laughable. The founding fathers had no basis for bargaining, not even as to equal those of the EU in these modern times. The Constitution was a functional document to serve separate sovereign nations (states) to an end. The nations, the original states did not force the federal government on themselves, they compromised to accept what would work for each state and all the rest is South Park absent of facts! What, in your wildest dreams do you think the founding fathers had as bargaining power to demand certain requirements on sovereign Christian countries or states if you like?