Full Version: Disparities in Academic Performance
How do you explain the disparity in academic performance between minority (African American) students and White students when both attend the same affluent school district? A famous study called the Shaker Heights study was conducted in the 90s that looked at this issue. The study considered a relatively affluent minority group in an academically successful suburban school district. It found stark differences in performance between the two groups – even when the socioeconomic playing field was comparably level.
Two links that discuss the Shaker Heights study in more depth:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8069
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916557/posts
Question for Debate: How do you explain these discrepancies in academic achievement when they can’t be dismissed with the traditional explanations of inadequate teachers or disparities in school funding?
Two links that discuss the Shaker Heights study in more depth:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8069
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916557/posts
Question for Debate: How do you explain these discrepancies in academic achievement when they can’t be dismissed with the traditional explanations of inadequate teachers or disparities in school funding?
I volunteer at my daughters' school. I help out in my eldest's class...first grade..quite a lot. I give their weekly reading tests and so I think I am fairly knowledgable about their level of academic abilities.. The lowest rated readers in the class..and the two who consistently receive Ns which in first grade equals an F are white children...and white children in this class are a significant minority.
From my own observations..I think most of the children in this class are at equivalent socio-economic status. The only difference or disparity I ever notice in the children that has direct bearing on their ability and academic achievement is parental involvement. Those children...black or white..whose parents care about them taking the reading test and doing well...do well. Those children who bring home an F week after week and no one at home cares..or bothers to involve themselves will continue to do poorly until the school or the community is forced to involve itself and compensate for the parent's lack of concern.
I honestly could not stomach your provided articles...much too heavy on agenda. Yet from my own experience and involvement with children I feel the largest and most influential factor is the child's family and support structure. And again from my own personal experience that in itself is not pre determined by race.
From my own observations..I think most of the children in this class are at equivalent socio-economic status. The only difference or disparity I ever notice in the children that has direct bearing on their ability and academic achievement is parental involvement. Those children...black or white..whose parents care about them taking the reading test and doing well...do well. Those children who bring home an F week after week and no one at home cares..or bothers to involve themselves will continue to do poorly until the school or the community is forced to involve itself and compensate for the parent's lack of concern.
I honestly could not stomach your provided articles...much too heavy on agenda. Yet from my own experience and involvement with children I feel the largest and most influential factor is the child's family and support structure. And again from my own personal experience that in itself is not pre determined by race.
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Dec 30 2004, 09:41 AM)
How do you explain the disparity in academic performance between minority (African American) students and White students when both attend the same affluent school district?
Upon returning form an assignment in Germany I was assigned to the Washington, DC National Guard as an active duty operations and training NCO. The unit’s soldiers were all inner city Afro-American. I found brilliance mingled with status quo to the point I became disinterested to try to create change in the mind of leaders and subordinates alike. I would spend hours preparing new step by step training tasks with a sit down and learn this new task for preparing for war and the answer was always, lets stick to what we are good at in case the general inspects us. As a result we were great on a few tasks and ignorant on the rest. The Afro-American leaders argue if the generals want us to be evaluated on new tasks they would ask why we always do the same tasks.
I think much of the problem is within the black community and Hollywood condoning failure and placing emphasis on sports and ghetto gangster achievements. The guys at the DCNG told me it was un-cool to be too smart in the hood. The explanation was mind boggling as explained to me by a sergeant that beat me playing chess repeatedly as, in the hood being intelligent is being the “man” and the man is what keeps us down (not ignorance, implied). Go figure!
Some interesting facts relating to this topic may be found in information contained at this link:http://www.constitution.org/ps/cbss.htm "Counterintuitive Behavior of Social Systems".
Larry Elder authored a book titled “The Ten Things You Can’t Say In America”, ISBN 0-312-26660-X, is another great source of understanding the paradox.
QUOTE(bucket @ Dec 30 2004, 09:36 AM)
I honestly could not stomach your provided articles...much too heavy on agenda.
Please clarify. How were they heavy on agenda?
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Dec 30 2004, 08:41 AM)
Question for Debate: How do you explain these discrepancies in academic achievement when they can’t be dismissed with the traditional explanations of inadequate teachers or disparities in school funding?
1. Cultural differences dictate that even in affluent communities, often children still feel the need to associate themselves to their respective races. In other words, if academic achievement and educational success is pertinent to your social groups, people will generally bow to peer pressure. However, if it is acceptable to perpetuate mediocrity, often times children will follow suit.
2. Consider also that people often rise to the level of expectation. If a minority student knows that he/she can be admitted to college (if not get a scholarship) with average performance, what need does he/she have to put forth the effort to excel? What is the benefit?
3. As long as there are gov't programs and institutions that perpetuate mediocrity, regardless of race or social status, it will exist. As long as people are getting hand-outs in the form of checks, jobs, or admissions into inst of higher learning... people will rise to the level of expectation.
I attended a school for Native Americans until we moved in the 6th grade, and after that attended segregated and then integrated schools.
Most of the best teachers I had were either Native American or Black - because no one could accuse them of being a racist when they failed a student who turned in failing grades. White teachers would almost always give the black students more chances to improve their grades or just pass them to avoid any unpleasant meetings with the school administration.
I worked with a guy who was a college football great and he DID get a degree - too bad he really couldn't do anything. He held down more positions with our company because they were just sure they'd find SOMETHING he could do. And he freely admitted he was the token. There was also another who was allowed to flunk his drug test over and over again. He'd go into treatment, got back to work, and within a month come to work drunk again - again, for YEARS.
When schools or businesses allow minorities to progress without the same standards expected of everyone else, they are perpetuating the stereo type and do more harm than good. Big stupid black jock - passed so he could play ball. Drunk indian - what do you expect?
Color should never be a factor - if ANY student is failing or struggling to make a grade, the impetus should be on getting that student the help they need. If the home life doesn't provide it, then a program needs to be in place where a student can work after school in an atmosphere where they can learn.
Most of the best teachers I had were either Native American or Black - because no one could accuse them of being a racist when they failed a student who turned in failing grades. White teachers would almost always give the black students more chances to improve their grades or just pass them to avoid any unpleasant meetings with the school administration.
I worked with a guy who was a college football great and he DID get a degree - too bad he really couldn't do anything. He held down more positions with our company because they were just sure they'd find SOMETHING he could do. And he freely admitted he was the token. There was also another who was allowed to flunk his drug test over and over again. He'd go into treatment, got back to work, and within a month come to work drunk again - again, for YEARS.
When schools or businesses allow minorities to progress without the same standards expected of everyone else, they are perpetuating the stereo type and do more harm than good. Big stupid black jock - passed so he could play ball. Drunk indian - what do you expect?
Color should never be a factor - if ANY student is failing or struggling to make a grade, the impetus should be on getting that student the help they need. If the home life doesn't provide it, then a program needs to be in place where a student can work after school in an atmosphere where they can learn.
QUOTE
1. Cultural differences dictate that even in affluent communities, often children still feel the need to associate themselves to their respective races. In other words, if academic achievement and educational success is pertinent to your social groups, people will generally bow to peer pressure. However, if it is acceptable to perpetuate mediocrity, often times children will follow suit.
Your first point is valid. Peer pressure plays a major role depending on the type of people who accept being mediocre. If someone is associating themselves with those who feel academics/education is a waste of time, more than likely it will have an effect on their menatlity as it becomes the norm in their mind.
QUOTE
2. Consider also that people often rise to the level of expectation. If a minority student knows that he/she can be admitted to college (if not get a scholarship) with average performance, what need does he/she have to put forth the effort to excel? What is the benefit?
There is no benefit at all. However, developing long-term goals and coming face-to-face with the reality of struggling economically can change the perception of just being content with being an average performer academically. You will develop motivation and come to an understanding that a person can always do better than they think.
QUOTE
3. As long as there are gov't programs and institutions that perpetuate mediocrity, regardless of race or social status, it will exist. As long as people are getting hand-outs in the form of checks, jobs, or admissions into inst of higher learning... people will rise to the level of expectation.
I'm lost on this comment. It has nothing to do with expectations in regard to education. I suggest reading OL Sarge post. I think he made some really good points about how outside influence is corrupting these kids minds. These outside groups encourage kids to focus only on sports and certain music that promotes violence and sex.
But the most important thing is to realize the broken homes most minorities come from. Its plays a major factor of why some minorities struggle in a traditional educational setting. What most of these kids need is parental guidance.
QUOTE(cgorham @ Dec 30 2004, 02:00 PM)
But the most important thing is to realize the broken homes most minorities come from. Its plays a major factor of why some minorities struggle in a traditional educational setting. What most of these kids need is parental guidance.
I disagree that broken homes are minority related and an excuse for apathy. The divorce rate in America is over 50% and that doesn't even count children born out of wed-lock. That being said, I would venture to say that there are plenty of caucasian children that thrive without the presence of both parents. I would give the benefit of the doubt to poverty stricken households and the fact that minorities are far more likely to live below the poverty line. Maslow's hierarchy of needs typically dictates that people whom are hungry generally aren't going to care about Algebra.... but that's another discussion in itself.
What we're saying here is that in apples-to-apples comparisons, minority students typically don't perform as well as their caucasian counterparts. The idea that a "traditional education setting" is a part of the problem is also hard to digest. What other "setting" do you suggest? I believe whole-heartedly that driving home accountability to the students and educators is our only hope. As soon as we tie performance levels to the compensation of educators, we'll quickly realize that standardized scores and college admittance/scholarships come more quickly.
QUOTE
What we're saying here is that in apples-to-apples comparisons, minority students typically don't perform as well as their caucasian counterparts. The idea that a "traditional education setting" is a part of the problem is also hard to digest. What other "setting" do you suggest? I believe whole-heartedly that driving home accountability to the students and educators is our only hope. As soon as we tie performance levels to the compensation of educators, we'll quickly realize that standardized scores and college admittance/scholarships come more quickly.
Since the minority and caucasian students in this study are from the same school district I do not see how you come to the conclusion that tying teacher pay to performance will help. I think McWhorter has a good grasp on the problem. There is a mentality prevalent among minority students that academic achievement is "acting white" and nothing to be proud of.
It just doesn't follow personal experience. Some of the hardest working and most dedicated students I have ever known have been from the various minorities. It has generally been my experience that when given a chance they excel--most often because they want out.
I would also probably point to the pathetic state of most schools found in low income areas. Those kids will have a harder time because they were never given the tools needed to learn to learn.
I will agree that many are "taught" to fail because of the influence of many around them. People do tend to feed off others around them. My best work has always come from being in groups of people who are motivated, skilled and most importantly enthusiastic. A spirit of competition always brings out the best from people.
If one wants to be completely honest the majority of students will never be anything more than adequate--they will excel at mediocre repetitive jobs--so its great for business as they keep a fresh supply of drones who will sit still and behave-- but as far as learners who will ever go on to be scientists or innovators or entrenpenuers the school system and education in America will continue to be a failure. Both the Lefts refusal to make any substantive changes to the way the schools are run to the insistence of the Right for standardized testing and teaching for the test, America will continue its steady failure.
There is a mentality prevalent among minority students that academic achievement is "acting white" and nothing to be proud of.
Hell hugo, i would expect better than this from you. The "acting White" is rubbish. America has never been all that supportive of the educated. How often do we have to hear rants against intellectuals of any stripe. Being smart has always been the realm of geeks and poindexters and not considered the ideal for the American male. Drink beer play ball and get a good job has always been closer to the truth. Excelling in school and College have always received a response of "Think they're better than us " from our society. We have always been more "pulled myself up from my bootstraps and made my fortune by the sweat of my brow" orientated. Name me one educated person who is a role model for our youth..........................
Sports stars, Rock/Rap stars by the bushel, wealthy Trump type personalities but except for Bill Nye the Science Guy and Spock there are none.
As for the 2 articles--they may be trying to say it in a manner that doesn't sound racist, but my impression was their advice was-act like White Republicans. They are very careful to provide findings from black researchers-but it seems more like a disqualifier. "See even the black people say it" will scream the Cable TV chirping monkeys--soon to be echoed endlessly by their radio counterparts day in and day out until the it is ingrained into the heads of their followers and will be repeated verbatim--and even more sadly their followers will often believe they have personally had a revelation and excitedly call in to impress everyone with their new found insight. good boy here's your cookie.................
I do apologize but whenever I go to a site that has pushes the required reading list of the Neocon Deathcult worshipers I just cannot take much said there seriously.
Any other sources perhaps......... Its kind of like asking me to accept Michael Moore's view on America as my guiding light of Reason. May I suggest perhaps www.mises.org or even www.lewrockwell.com for intelligent work.
I would also probably point to the pathetic state of most schools found in low income areas. Those kids will have a harder time because they were never given the tools needed to learn to learn.
I will agree that many are "taught" to fail because of the influence of many around them. People do tend to feed off others around them. My best work has always come from being in groups of people who are motivated, skilled and most importantly enthusiastic. A spirit of competition always brings out the best from people.
If one wants to be completely honest the majority of students will never be anything more than adequate--they will excel at mediocre repetitive jobs--so its great for business as they keep a fresh supply of drones who will sit still and behave-- but as far as learners who will ever go on to be scientists or innovators or entrenpenuers the school system and education in America will continue to be a failure. Both the Lefts refusal to make any substantive changes to the way the schools are run to the insistence of the Right for standardized testing and teaching for the test, America will continue its steady failure.
QUOTE
There is a mentality prevalent among minority students that academic achievement is "acting white" and nothing to be proud of.
Hell hugo, i would expect better than this from you. The "acting White" is rubbish. America has never been all that supportive of the educated. How often do we have to hear rants against intellectuals of any stripe. Being smart has always been the realm of geeks and poindexters and not considered the ideal for the American male. Drink beer play ball and get a good job has always been closer to the truth. Excelling in school and College have always received a response of "Think they're better than us " from our society. We have always been more "pulled myself up from my bootstraps and made my fortune by the sweat of my brow" orientated. Name me one educated person who is a role model for our youth..........................
Sports stars, Rock/Rap stars by the bushel, wealthy Trump type personalities but except for Bill Nye the Science Guy and Spock there are none.
As for the 2 articles--they may be trying to say it in a manner that doesn't sound racist, but my impression was their advice was-act like White Republicans. They are very careful to provide findings from black researchers-but it seems more like a disqualifier. "See even the black people say it" will scream the Cable TV chirping monkeys--soon to be echoed endlessly by their radio counterparts day in and day out until the it is ingrained into the heads of their followers and will be repeated verbatim--and even more sadly their followers will often believe they have personally had a revelation and excitedly call in to impress everyone with their new found insight. good boy here's your cookie.................
I do apologize but whenever I go to a site that has pushes the required reading list of the Neocon Deathcult worshipers I just cannot take much said there seriously.
Any other sources perhaps......... Its kind of like asking me to accept Michael Moore's view on America as my guiding light of Reason. May I suggest perhaps www.mises.org or even www.lewrockwell.com for intelligent work.
QUOTE(Hugo @ Dec 30 2004, 04:08 PM)
Since the minority and caucasian students in this study are from the same school district I do not see how you come to the conclusion that tying teacher pay to performance will help. I think McWhorter has a good grasp on the problem. There is a mentality prevalent among minority students that academic achievement is "acting white" and nothing to be proud of.
If compensation is tied to educator performance, the administrators/teachers will quickly come to the conclusion that a certain portions of their schools have fallen behind. If schools were run like businesses, everyone within the system would focus on improving every student... regardless of skin tone. Money is the overwhelming reason most of us find ourselves putting on slacks and driving to work in the morning. If a 5th grade teacher, hypothetically, believed that there was a group in her class that kept her from reaching a std testing goal and needed individual attention, don't you think a little cash in her pocket would help? Right now they get a pat on the back and a plaque on the wall... seriously.
I think we should address the root cause of the problem not throw dollars away trying to treat the symptoms and wasting valuable educational assets on children who do not wish to learn.
Henry Louis Gates, distinguished scholar and chair of Harvard's African and African American Studies Department.
It is a problem that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, mainstream media sources are afraid to touch it. That is why the need to use right-wing sources in making the case for a change from within the black, and other minority, communities.
And from McWhorter's artice title "what's Holding Blacks Back?" at www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_whats_holding_blacks.html
Later, in the same article
Henry Louis Gates, distinguished scholar and chair of Harvard's African and African American Studies Department.
QUOTE
I remember a poll where black kids were asked to list the things they considered 'acting white. The top three things were: making straight A's, speaking standard English and going to the Smithsonian. Now, if anybody had said anything like that when we were growing up in the '50s, first, your mother would smack you upside the head and second, they'd check you into a mental institution.
What I'm trying to figure out is why our kids...embrace those modes of behavior as authentically black. It is killing our people. And it makes me sick....Our leaders are geniuses at jumping on white racism...when anti-black racism by anybody manifests itself, I'll be right there pouncing on it, too. But unless we do the second, necessary, act of leadership, which is to critique pathological forms of behavior with any African American community, our people will be doomed, doomed to perpetuate the class divide...
.What I'm trying to figure out is why our kids...embrace those modes of behavior as authentically black. It is killing our people. And it makes me sick....Our leaders are geniuses at jumping on white racism...when anti-black racism by anybody manifests itself, I'll be right there pouncing on it, too. But unless we do the second, necessary, act of leadership, which is to critique pathological forms of behavior with any African American community, our people will be doomed, doomed to perpetuate the class divide...
It is a problem that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, mainstream media sources are afraid to touch it. That is why the need to use right-wing sources in making the case for a change from within the black, and other minority, communities.
And from McWhorter's artice title "what's Holding Blacks Back?" at www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_whats_holding_blacks.html
QUOTE
The worst result of the sense that black America is a fundamentally separate realm is a widespread cult of anti-intellectualism. Consider the data: even in middle-class suburbs, increasing numbers of middle-class black students tend to cluster at the bottom of their schools in grades and test scores. Black students whose parents earn $70,000 a year or more make median SAT scores lower than impoverished white students whose parents make $6,000 a year or less, while black students whose parents both have graduate degrees make mean SAT scores lower than white students whose parents only completed high school.
Why? All through modern black American culture, even throughout black academia, the belief prevails that learning for learning’s sake is a white affair and therefore inherently disloyal to a proper black identity. Studying black-related issues is okay, because learning about oneself is authentic. But this impulse also implicitly classifies science as irrelevant, which is the direct cause of the underrepresentation of minorities in the hard sciences. The sense that the properly “black” person only delves into topics related to himself is also why you can count on one hand the number of books by black Americans that are not on racial topics.
Why? All through modern black American culture, even throughout black academia, the belief prevails that learning for learning’s sake is a white affair and therefore inherently disloyal to a proper black identity. Studying black-related issues is okay, because learning about oneself is authentic. But this impulse also implicitly classifies science as irrelevant, which is the direct cause of the underrepresentation of minorities in the hard sciences. The sense that the properly “black” person only delves into topics related to himself is also why you can count on one hand the number of books by black Americans that are not on racial topics.
Later, in the same article
QUOTE
The “acting white” charge—which implies that you think yourself different from, and better than, your peers—is the prime reason that blacks do poorly in school. The gifted black student quickly faces a choice between peer group acceptance and intellectual achievement. Most, out of an utterly human impulse, choose the former. Even if they open themselves to schooling in college or later, their performance all too often permanently suffers from the message they long ago internalized that “the school thing” is an add-on, not a mix-in.
QUOTE
If compensation is tied to educator performance, the administrators/teachers will quickly come to the conclusion that a certain portions of their schools have fallen behind. If schools were run like businesses, everyone within the system would focus on improving every student... regardless of skin tone. Money is the overwhelming reason most of us find ourselves putting on slacks and driving to work in the morning. If a 5th grade teacher, hypothetically, believed that there was a group in her class that kept her from reaching a std testing goal and needed individual attention, don't you think a little cash in her pocket would help? Right now they get a pat on the back and a plaque on the wall... seriously.
Come on, run a school like a business?? And let me guess, the students are the products? As I said in my previous post, it has more to do with home life than what a teacher is paid. But no matter how much a teacher is paid, you just cannot assume everybody in the class is going to get straight As. That doesn't make sense. If children have no one at home to GUIDE them, then its going to have a larger effect on their ability to focus on school. You cannot run a school system like a corporation.
QUOTE(cgorham @ Dec 30 2004, 07:06 PM)
Come on, run a school like a business?? And let me guess, the students are the products? As I said in my previous post, it has more to do with home life than what a teacher is paid. But no matter how much a teacher is paid, you just cannot assume everybody in the class is going to get straight As. That doesn't make sense. If children have no one at home to GUIDE them, then its going to have a larger effect on their ability to focus on school. You cannot run a school system like a corporation.
I agree...education has everything to do with a child's home life. You can go to the best schools, have the best teachers, and have as many opportunities as possible...but if you do not have a parent or guardian who motives and protects you then your chances of accomplishing something drop greatly. It is very hard for someone to succeed without a stable nurturing environment to grow up in...i don't care who you are. In rare cases, kids can make it out of such predicaments. But when an entire social landscape is set up for uninvolved parents and students who care nothing for education then "you reap what you sow."
QUOTE
Please clarify. How were they heavy on agenda?
The question of debate you proposed was why this was happening..or how it is to be explained. Although as I already pointed out this is probably not the same case scenario in every situation..certainly not in ones I have personally witnessed.
You supported your claim that this was the universal reality in this country...without any proof...but two articles which mention this study's findings. The first paragraph of the first link was enough for me..somehow I got the feeling this debate was meant to invoke more than just a debate on why or how this occurred..all the comments about how not only was affirmative action unfair, possibly illegal, but it was allowing all those minority kids to not even have to try hard at school..as others in here stated..they are assured the handout.
Sorry just rubbed me the wrong way and didn't really make me all too interested to have to read anymore of it. I hadn't thought it was required reading anyways.
I remember a kid I went to high school with...KK. I was an absolute pro at how to get through school and pass it with the minimum amount of not only time required in school but effort. I had figured out that if you just randomly fill in the bubbles on those multiple choice placement tests you will find yourself in a class so utterly basic that not only should anyone who can not pass it not be allowed to graduate they shouldn't be allowed to breed. KK was in this class with me..it was the last ditch attempt from the school to get you to pass your SATs. KK couldn't even read..not badly..just not at all..he was illiterate..and guess what he went to college..for free! How come? Well because KK was my high school's basketball star and every one of his teachers had to know he could not read or write and yet every one of them made an exception because they felt KK would only make it on his physical abilities..and they couldn't hamper his only chance. There has got to be many kids like KK who got greased through the system..who had their physical abilities valued more than just their basic right..because I feel in a country like this it is a right..to be literate.
And somehow people here seem to think kids like this are lucky..are being given handouts..and are taking advantage of the system. Well I think it is the other way around..I think the system is taking advantage of these kids..I think in the end being able to read would probably have been a better deal then going to college for free. I like reading..it is one of life's great pleasures..and many kids in America are not afforded this pleasure and often society itself allows this..because they would rather see them run around on a basketball or football field.
QUOTE
If a 5th grade teacher, hypothetically, believed that there was a group in her class that kept her from reaching a std testing goal and needed individual attention, don't you think a little cash in her pocket would help? Right now they get a pat on the back and a plaque on the wall... seriously.
Oh you must not personally know any teachers or ever go to your child's class..if you have a kid. I would like to know where a teacher with 25+ kids in their class is going to find the extra time to spend with the children who are falling behind because they are at a much lower academic level then others, because they may have a learning issue or because they never do their homework and no one at home cares if they don't. Why do teachers need to be penalized for poor parenting? Or a developmental problem? Or even possibly a language barrier? As I said before I volunteer regularly at our public school and my mother is a 3rd grade teacher. Teachers already carry a heavy enough burden as is...if you wish to only further increase this burden by placing their own financial health at stake..then I am sure finding good teachers will become even more difficult.
What needs to be done is more people should volunteer their time at their local school..we have a program at my daughters' school where senior citizens come and read with or assist children who happen to be struggling..usually due to lack of involvement at home. We had one little girl who was reading so poorly..failing all her tests and still struggling over the basic sounds of some of the letters. The teacher signed her up for the senior program and twice a week this old guy came and read with her for 15 minutes...that is all it took 15 MINUTES and she got a 100% on her last test. It had to be one of the most rewarding things I have ever seen happen so easily..and she was so proud. It only takes a tiny smidge of an amount of time to so drastically alter a child's performance..and really their perception of not only school but their self..and far too many kids get far too little. If you are so concerned about children doing well in our public schools then go volunteer at one.
Christopher wrote:
As for the 2 articles--they may be trying to say it in a manner that doesn't sound racist, but my impression was their advice was-act like White Republicans. They are very careful to provide findings from black researchers-but it seems more like a disqualifier. "See even the black people say it" will scream the Cable TV chirping monkeys--soon to be echoed endlessly by their radio counterparts day in and day out until the it is ingrained into the heads of their followers and will be repeated verbatim--and even more sadly their followers will often believe they have personally had a revelation and excitedly call in to impress everyone with their new found insight. good boy here's your cookie.................
I do apologize but whenever I go to a site that has pushes the required reading list of the Neocon Deathcult worshipers I just cannot take much said there seriously.
Any other sources perhaps......... Its kind of like asking me to accept Michael Moore's view on America as my guiding light of Reason. May I suggest perhaps www.mises.org or even www.lewrockwell.com for intelligent work.
My response
Christopher, I heard about this study from a special that was done on PBS during the week we were celebrating the Brown v. Board of Education 50 year anniversary. I remembered it and thought it would be a good topic for this board. So I went and did an internet search and found these two articles. So, its source (at least for me) was PBS and not a typically "right wing" source.
As for the 2 articles--they may be trying to say it in a manner that doesn't sound racist, but my impression was their advice was-act like White Republicans. They are very careful to provide findings from black researchers-but it seems more like a disqualifier. "See even the black people say it" will scream the Cable TV chirping monkeys--soon to be echoed endlessly by their radio counterparts day in and day out until the it is ingrained into the heads of their followers and will be repeated verbatim--and even more sadly their followers will often believe they have personally had a revelation and excitedly call in to impress everyone with their new found insight. good boy here's your cookie.................
I do apologize but whenever I go to a site that has pushes the required reading list of the Neocon Deathcult worshipers I just cannot take much said there seriously.
Any other sources perhaps......... Its kind of like asking me to accept Michael Moore's view on America as my guiding light of Reason. May I suggest perhaps www.mises.org or even www.lewrockwell.com for intelligent work.
My response
Christopher, I heard about this study from a special that was done on PBS during the week we were celebrating the Brown v. Board of Education 50 year anniversary. I remembered it and thought it would be a good topic for this board. So I went and did an internet search and found these two articles. So, its source (at least for me) was PBS and not a typically "right wing" source.
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Dec 30 2004, 09:29 PM)
I heard about this study from a special that was done on PBS during the week we were celebrating the Brown v. Board of Education 50 year anniversary. I remembered it and thought it would be a good topic for this board. So I went and did an internet search and found these two articles. So, its source (at least for me) was PBS and not a typically "right wing" source.
Source number one, home page
QUOTE
Thanks to your support the Center for the Study of Popular Culture has published powerful exposés on the Open Border's Lobby, Theresa Heinz Kerry's radical left philanthropy and now the "shadow party"... the cloaked, subversive people and groups that have made the Democratic Party their tool for forwarding their radical agendas.
We have run article after article on our web magazine, FrontPageMag, exposing the left, and now I'm asking for your help to continue this effort so that we can continue to ensure that mainstream Americans learn about the influence of these radicals, who they are, what their agenda is and how they're going about subverting our democratic process.
We have run article after article on our web magazine, FrontPageMag, exposing the left, and now I'm asking for your help to continue this effort so that we can continue to ensure that mainstream Americans learn about the influence of these radicals, who they are, what their agenda is and how they're going about subverting our democratic process.
Front Page
Source number two
QUOTE
Welcome to Free Republic!
Free Republic is the premiere online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
Free Republic is the premiere online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
Free Republic
So these sources are definitely conservative sources. Horowitz's site more to the leftist conspiracy theory by appearance. But these links are not PBS, and they are biased sources. I think it is completely fair game to at least question the source. You can question organizations as PBS, but you will not find anything in their news programming that describes their information as advancing a liberal agenda.
I think studies like the Shaker Heights study are very important for our country. As Hugo has pointed out on earlier debates, it is so politically incorrect to ask why the performance disparity has come about that the questioner and not the issue often become the topic of debate.
This anthropologist did what many other scientists would not do in his place, ask the tough questions. We need more people like him willing to wade into issues like this in a scientific manner. Unfortunately Mr. Ogbu passed away this year.
I found it interesting in researching this issue that Mr. Obgu was invited to conduct this study
QUOTE
Distressed that their teen-aged children's grades were lagging behind those of their white counterparts, despite having similar socioeconomic advantages in the racially mixed school district, the black parents organized their own investigation.
They invited anthropology Prof. John U. Ogbu, a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for the past 30 years, all the way from the University of California at Berkeley to examine the district's 5,000 students and figure out why the black-white performance gap persists.
They invited anthropology Prof. John U. Ogbu, a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for the past 30 years, all the way from the University of California at Berkeley to examine the district's 5,000 students and figure out why the black-white performance gap persists.
What black parents must do now ...
He likely came into the study thinking that his earlier findings would be confirmed.
QUOTE
I've been following Ogbu's work since the 1980s, when he and fellow anthropologist Signithia Fordham, now at the University of Rochester, stirred up a national hornets nest by finding significant numbers of black students rejected rigorous pursuit of academics as "acting white."
same link
This is a subject in which too many people seem to come in with preconceptions, and that in the various socio/economic/race/gender/region/education issues that are involved in such a complex issue as academic performance, it seems impossible to come up with a scientific way to measure the reasons for performance or lack thereof.
The core of this seems to come down to an African American culture that does not place proper emphasis on education and expects schools to do the job of education.
Or on the other hand a system which victimizes African Americans and enforces overtly and subtly or even accidentally the problems through racism, lowered expectations, and stereotyping.
The encouraging thing to me about looking into this question in the 21st century is that there is not a loud voice trying to claim that African Americans are not as intelligent as whites.
We had a previous thread about the IQ gap between blacks and whites that led many to conclude Hugo believed blacks were genetically dumber than whites.
But in the academic studies that gap seems to actually support affirmative action as laid out in the following study cited by Hugo in that thread.
QUOTE
Compare the average intelligence test scores of blacks and whites during their senior years in high school and whites tend to outscore blacks by as many as 15 IQ points. But send those students to college and the IQ scores of black students who graduate increase more than four times as much as those of their white college classmates, effectively cutting the black-white IQ gap in half by graduation.
This is one of the key findings of Washington University research that holds important implications for the current debate over federal and state attempts to roll back affirmative action programs.
"Our study shows that differences in IQ test scores among blacks and whites may have little to do with genetics, and much to do with the relative quality of the educational opportunities afforded to blacks and whites," said Mark R. Rank, Ph.D., associate professor at the George Warren Brown School of Social Work.
This is one of the key findings of Washington University research that holds important implications for the current debate over federal and state attempts to roll back affirmative action programs.
"Our study shows that differences in IQ test scores among blacks and whites may have little to do with genetics, and much to do with the relative quality of the educational opportunities afforded to blacks and whites," said Mark R. Rank, Ph.D., associate professor at the George Warren Brown School of Social Work.
Challenging 'The Bell Curve': College education halves black, white IQ score gap
The question for debate:
How do you explain these discrepancies in academic achievement when they can’t be dismissed with the traditional explanations of inadequate teachers or disparities in school funding?
I think is a very important one to ask. This is one that needs more study. It is difficult to tell from a computer screen whether black students were given equal opportunity to be in the best classes, or whether teachers tended to approach black students with lower expectation, or whether the culprit is a student culture that more proportionately discounts placing a high value on grades or academic learning, or whether it is a African American cultural tendency to place a lower emphasis on learning and school performance.
So debates like these get pulled into uglier debates that expose preconceptions ranging from what some would call blaming the victims for their condition to what others would call the need for greater assimilation into "mainstream" American values. This issue needs more people that ask the question, intend to come to a scientific based conclusion, and aspire for neutrality at a professional academic standard.
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Dec 30 2004, 10:45 PM)
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Dec 30 2004, 09:29 PM)
I heard about this study from a special that was done on PBS during the week we were celebrating the Brown v. Board of Education 50 year anniversary. I remembered it and thought it would be a good topic for this board. So I went and did an internet search and found these two articles. So, its source (at least for me) was PBS and not a typically "right wing" source.
Source number one, home page
QUOTE
Thanks to your support the Center for the Study of Popular Culture has published powerful exposés on the Open Border's Lobby, Theresa Heinz Kerry's radical left philanthropy and now the "shadow party"... the cloaked, subversive people and groups that have made the Democratic Party their tool for forwarding their radical agendas.
We have run article after article on our web magazine, FrontPageMag, exposing the left, and now I'm asking for your help to continue this effort so that we can continue to ensure that mainstream Americans learn about the influence of these radicals, who they are, what their agenda is and how they're going about subverting our democratic process.
We have run article after article on our web magazine, FrontPageMag, exposing the left, and now I'm asking for your help to continue this effort so that we can continue to ensure that mainstream Americans learn about the influence of these radicals, who they are, what their agenda is and how they're going about subverting our democratic process.
Front Page
Source number two
QUOTE
Welcome to Free Republic!
Free Republic is the premiere online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
Free Republic is the premiere online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
Free Republic
So these sources are definitely conservative sources. Horowitz's site more to the leftist conspiracy theory by appearance. But these links are not PBS, and they are biased sources. I think it is completely fair game to at least question the source. You can question organizations as PBS, but you will not find anything in their news programming that describes their information as advancing a liberal agenda.
I think studies like the Shaker Heights study are very important for our country. As Hugo has pointed out on earlier debates, it is so politically incorrect to ask why the performance disparity has come about that the questioner and not the issue often become the topic of debate.
This anthropologist did what many other scientists would not do in his place, ask the tough questions. We need more people like him willing to wade into issues like this in a scientific manner. Unfortunately Mr. Ogbu passed away this year.
I found it interesting in researching this issue that Mr. Obgu was invited to conduct this study
QUOTE
Distressed that their teen-aged children's grades were lagging behind those of their white counterparts, despite having similar socioeconomic advantages in the racially mixed school district, the black parents organized their own investigation.
They invited anthropology Prof. John U. Ogbu, a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for the past 30 years, all the way from the University of California at Berkeley to examine the district's 5,000 students and figure out why the black-white performance gap persists.
They invited anthropology Prof. John U. Ogbu, a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for the past 30 years, all the way from the University of California at Berkeley to examine the district's 5,000 students and figure out why the black-white performance gap persists.
What black parents must do now ...
He likely came into the study thinking that his earlier findings would be confirmed.
QUOTE
I've been following Ogbu's work since the 1980s, when he and fellow anthropologist Signithia Fordham, now at the University of Rochester, stirred up a national hornets nest by finding significant numbers of black students rejected rigorous pursuit of academics as "acting white."
same link
This is a subject in which too many people seem to come in with preconceptions, and that in the various socio/economic/race/gender/region/education issues that are involved in such a complex issue as academic performance, it seems impossible to come up with a scientific way to measure the reasons for performance or lack thereof.
The core of this seems to come down to an African American culture that does not place proper emphasis on education and expects schools to do the job of education.
Or on the other hand a system which victimizes African Americans and enforces overtly and subtly or even accidentally the problems through racism, lowered expectations, and stereotyping.
The encouraging thing to me about looking into this question in the 21st century is that there is not a loud voice trying to claim that African Americans are not as intelligent as whites.
We had a previous thread about the IQ gap between blacks and whites that led many to conclude Hugo believed blacks were genetically dumber than whites.
But in the academic studies that gap seems to actually support affirmative action as laid out in the following study cited by Hugo in that thread.
QUOTE
Compare the average intelligence test scores of blacks and whites during their senior years in high school and whites tend to outscore blacks by as many as 15 IQ points. But send those students to college and the IQ scores of black students who graduate increase more than four times as much as those of their white college classmates, effectively cutting the black-white IQ gap in half by graduation.
This is one of the key findings of Washington University research that holds important implications for the current debate over federal and state attempts to roll back affirmative action programs.
"Our study shows that differences in IQ test scores among blacks and whites may have little to do with genetics, and much to do with the relative quality of the educational opportunities afforded to blacks and whites," said Mark R. Rank, Ph.D., associate professor at the George Warren Brown School of Social Work.
This is one of the key findings of Washington University research that holds important implications for the current debate over federal and state attempts to roll back affirmative action programs.
"Our study shows that differences in IQ test scores among blacks and whites may have little to do with genetics, and much to do with the relative quality of the educational opportunities afforded to blacks and whites," said Mark R. Rank, Ph.D., associate professor at the George Warren Brown School of Social Work.
Challenging 'The Bell Curve': College education halves black, white IQ score gap
The question for debate:
How do you explain these discrepancies in academic achievement when they can’t be dismissed with the traditional explanations of inadequate teachers or disparities in school funding?
I think is a very important one to ask. This is one that needs more study. It is difficult to tell from a computer screen whether black students were given equal opportunity to be in the best classes, or whether teachers tended to approach black students with lower expectation, or whether the culprit is a student culture that more proportionately discounts placing a high value on grades or academic learning, or whether it is a African American cultural tendency to place a lower emphasis on learning and school performance.
So debates like these get pulled into uglier debates that expose preconceptions ranging from what some would call blaming the victims for their condition to what others would call the need for greater assimilation into "mainstream" American values. This issue needs more people that ask the question, intend to come to a scientific based conclusion, and aspire for neutrality at a professional academic standard.
Well said and well done Eeyore! What can I say, you hit the nail on the head. The question needs to be asked in the first instance, then scientifically studied.
It does no good to rebut the premise of the question (that the disparity existed between the two similarly situated groups) with personal experience. I would like to see more studies of the type conducted by Ogbu. The PBS special that I saw was great. If I can find a link I will post it. It was looking at the larger question of whether Brown had corrected the disparities. It also looked in depth at the study itself, interviewing many of the students at Shaker Heights to see what their impressions were. Very interesting. Some spoke of a peer pressure within their (Black) community that discouraged academic performance. Others spoke of being intimidated in the higher level classes that were majority white. A group of african amercan men organized a special group in response to the study to encourage good role modeling. I think alot of good came from the study and we need more people not afraid to ask the difficult questions.
QUOTE
It does no good to rebut the premise of the question (that the disparity existed between the two similarly situated groups) with personal experience.
I will assume this is directed to me..which I am probably correct in assuming. I didn't deny the disparity...I denied it was a constant universal thing here in the US.
The children I have a regular experience with are only in grade school..they are the next generation..maybe perhaps self perception of the black community is changing...could this be possible? I don't think in 1997..when the Shaker Heights study took place that we had Colin Powell standing side by side with the president of the United States on our Tvs regularly..I don't think we had Condoleezza Rice aiding the world's most powerful leader..I don't think Tavis Smiley was on NPR...or Barack Obama had made a speech at the democratic convention and had received such non-partisan praise. Maybe this whole racial perception of one's ethnicity as a whole or a group evolves...maybe? Because personally I think racial issues in our world are ever changing..I don't think the past ever dissipates..and does shape the future outcomes...but at the same time I think we are masters of our destiny.
So maybe my personal experiences and the children I interact with are a reflection of what is to come.
Since you are obviously not going to attempt to find more honest, open and fair articles that present this study and it's findings I read up on it myself.
I was bothered by a few things..firstly how distorted many seem to be interpreting the data/findings of this study. Mr. Ogbu..who is now dead..studied this type of field for over 30 yrs. He said this kind of inferior performance of minority groups in mainstream society was universal. It happens in Japan to the Buraku people .. and the Koreans in Japan too. Even in England to the working class..this I can also vouch for with my fallible personal experiences because my father was raised in England in that era where he was told all he would ever achieve was faithful and laborious servitude to the queen. Ogbu classified this occurrence as involuntary minorities..meaning mostly enslaved.
This is how he explained that it was happening to African Americans in the US and not Asians or Latinos. This is how he explained that it was not a racial issue..genetically... but rather an issue of that particular ethnic groups history in that country.
I was also bothered by the idea this was an issue of parents not caring or being more reliant on the system ...firstly if the parents cared so little how did this issue get taken as seriously and as far as it did without the parents involving themselves? It is the parents who requested the school district to do something..they must have organized themselves to some degree..they most have been taking on some degree of responsibility for the outcomes of their child's education..they must have felt the system itself was not going to just care for it on it's own.
Then I was left wondering who were the African American families in the study? Were they first generation college graduates..yes most of the were. Were they single family homes? Did they have family or other support groups in the community? Or were they recent transplants? Did they have to work longer and put in more hours to achieve their financial successes? I am sure that peer pressure has a lot to do with how a child, acts, performs and behaves in school..I just think in situations such as these many things accumulate and interact and are responsible for the outcome of an individual's life.
To Bucket:
You wrote:
Since you are obviously not going to attempt to find more honest, open and fair articles that present this study and it's findings I read up on it myself.
I don’t see why you have a problem with the articles I presented. They describe the study. They provide three possible reasons for the results found in the study. There is not much more to it than that.
You wrote:
I was bothered by a few things..firstly how distorted many seem to be interpreting the data/findings of this study. Mr. Ogbu..who is now dead..studied this type of field for over 30 yrs. He said this kind of inferior performance of minority groups in mainstream society was universal. It happens in Japan to the Buraku people .. and the Koreans in Japan too. Even in England to the working class..this I can also vouch for with my fallible personal experiences because my father was raised in England in that era where he was told all he would ever achieve was faithful and laborious servitude to the queen. Ogbu classified this occurrence as involuntary minorities..meaning mostly enslaved.
This is how he explained that it was happening to African Americans in the US and not Asians or Latinos. This is how he explained that it was not a racial issue..genetically... but rather an issue of that particular ethnic groups history in that country.
The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it. Too pat of an answer. And I never suggested that there was a genetic difference. Where did you get that from?
You wrote:
I was also bothered by the idea this was an issue of parents not caring or being more reliant on the system ...firstly if the parents cared so little how did this issue get taken as seriously and as far as it did without the parents involving themselves? It is the parents who requested the school district to do something..they must have organized themselves to some degree..they most have been taking on some degree of responsibility for the outcomes of their child's education..they must have felt the system itself was not going to just care for it on it's own.
I think all the parents called for the study to try and understand why the disparity existed. I think it is great that they did. But the findings indicated that there was something in the “culture” that was promoting the disparity. They should act on these findings.
You wrote:
Then I was left wondering who were the African American families in the study? Were they first generation college graduates..yes most of the were. Were they single family homes? Did they have family or other support groups in the community? Or were they recent transplants? Did they have to work longer and put in more hours to achieve their financial successes? I am sure that peer pressure has a lot to do with how a child, acts, performs and behaves in school..I just think in situations such as these many things accumulate and interact and are responsible for the outcome of an individual's life.
Perhaps all of the above are true. Many factors contribute to why a specific “culture” develops or exists. The point is that we have to identify that the “culture” is the culprit and work to change that. Like I said in my post to Eeyore, I found out about this study for a PBS special that went in depth about all these things. Apparently, a group of young afr. Amer. Men was subsequently formed to provide better role modeling for the youth. All the better.
You wrote:
Since you are obviously not going to attempt to find more honest, open and fair articles that present this study and it's findings I read up on it myself.
I don’t see why you have a problem with the articles I presented. They describe the study. They provide three possible reasons for the results found in the study. There is not much more to it than that.
You wrote:
I was bothered by a few things..firstly how distorted many seem to be interpreting the data/findings of this study. Mr. Ogbu..who is now dead..studied this type of field for over 30 yrs. He said this kind of inferior performance of minority groups in mainstream society was universal. It happens in Japan to the Buraku people .. and the Koreans in Japan too. Even in England to the working class..this I can also vouch for with my fallible personal experiences because my father was raised in England in that era where he was told all he would ever achieve was faithful and laborious servitude to the queen. Ogbu classified this occurrence as involuntary minorities..meaning mostly enslaved.
This is how he explained that it was happening to African Americans in the US and not Asians or Latinos. This is how he explained that it was not a racial issue..genetically... but rather an issue of that particular ethnic groups history in that country.
The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it. Too pat of an answer. And I never suggested that there was a genetic difference. Where did you get that from?
You wrote:
I was also bothered by the idea this was an issue of parents not caring or being more reliant on the system ...firstly if the parents cared so little how did this issue get taken as seriously and as far as it did without the parents involving themselves? It is the parents who requested the school district to do something..they must have organized themselves to some degree..they most have been taking on some degree of responsibility for the outcomes of their child's education..they must have felt the system itself was not going to just care for it on it's own.
I think all the parents called for the study to try and understand why the disparity existed. I think it is great that they did. But the findings indicated that there was something in the “culture” that was promoting the disparity. They should act on these findings.
You wrote:
Then I was left wondering who were the African American families in the study? Were they first generation college graduates..yes most of the were. Were they single family homes? Did they have family or other support groups in the community? Or were they recent transplants? Did they have to work longer and put in more hours to achieve their financial successes? I am sure that peer pressure has a lot to do with how a child, acts, performs and behaves in school..I just think in situations such as these many things accumulate and interact and are responsible for the outcome of an individual's life.
Perhaps all of the above are true. Many factors contribute to why a specific “culture” develops or exists. The point is that we have to identify that the “culture” is the culprit and work to change that. Like I said in my post to Eeyore, I found out about this study for a PBS special that went in depth about all these things. Apparently, a group of young afr. Amer. Men was subsequently formed to provide better role modeling for the youth. All the better.
QUOTE
I don’t see why you have a problem with the articles I presented. They describe the study. They provide three possible reasons for the results found in the study. There is not much more to it than that.
I already explained this. I am not the only one here who had "a problem" either. When Eeyore pointed out to you the biases of these sources you congratulated him on his astuteness and even promised to find better sources. I don't understand why I get such a different response.
QUOTE
The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it. Too pat of an answer.
Why do you accept Mr. Ogbu's other theories then? Why so selective? This is his idea..his term..his theory..involuntary minority..this is what Mr. Ogbu claimed was occurring in Shaker Heights. This is how he believed the African American culture in the US often lead to these kinds of educational outcomes..because this minority is an involuntary minority. If you think Mr. Ogbu is so smart on all the assertions that African American culture is the main factor in their educational disparity then why do you reject the reasons he believes their culture presents these outcomes?
How is saying it's their culture enough for you? Don't you wonder why it is their culture? Couldn't their history of enslavement in this country..their classification as an involuntary minority... be the why you claimed to be seeking with the start of this debate?
You said in your last post yourself you are interested to see or read more of Mr. Ogbu's work..and when I present you with basically his life long thesis..minority education and the differences of voluntary and involuntary minorities .. you so easily dismiss it. Can you explain why you insist on being so selective of this man's work?
To quote some of what Mr. Ogbu theorized....
The under-achieving minorities in these countries, including blacks in the United States, all had one factor in common: They are what Ogbu calls "involuntary minorities."
Involuntary minorities are those who did not immigrate to a country by choice. They became minorities through enslavement, colonization or conquest, a status that continues to shape how they are treated by the dominant group and how they perceive and respond to that treatment. Involuntary minorities developed their identity in opposition to the majority group that had oppressed them. As a result, they are often suspicious of societal institutions run by the dominant group, including the schools, believing that the curriculum threatens and denigrates their heritage. "
source
So again I must ask...why are you so willing to accept this man's theories that it is a cultural influence on minority's feelings towards education but at the same time reject his explanation as to why it is a cultural factor?
[quote=cgorham,Dec 30 2004, 07:00 PM]
[quote]
[quote]3. As long as there are gov't programs and institutions that perpetuate mediocrity, regardless of race or social status, it will exist. As long as people are getting hand-outs in the form of checks, jobs, or admissions into inst of higher learning... people will rise to the level of expectation.[/quote]
I'm lost on this comment. It has nothing to do with expectations in regard to education. I suggest reading OL Sarge post. I think he made some really good points about how outside influence is corrupting these kids minds. These outside groups encourage kids to focus only on sports and certain music that promotes violence and sex.
[/quote]
I have to take exception to the expectations part here. My mother-in-law, wife, and son are teachers. They will tell you that if you have low expectations, you have a good chance of successfully achieving low results across the entire spectrum of student types. Only a few will excel despite the teachers/parents/administrations combined effort to lower the bar.
High expectations will not float all the boats, but it will raise the bar for everyone, and then it will be only a few who do not achieve the higher standards.
It may be that the school environment is the only place some students will be asked to achieve, due to cultural differences, lack of support from parents, or outside influences, or whatever.
[quote]
[quote]3. As long as there are gov't programs and institutions that perpetuate mediocrity, regardless of race or social status, it will exist. As long as people are getting hand-outs in the form of checks, jobs, or admissions into inst of higher learning... people will rise to the level of expectation.[/quote]
I'm lost on this comment. It has nothing to do with expectations in regard to education. I suggest reading OL Sarge post. I think he made some really good points about how outside influence is corrupting these kids minds. These outside groups encourage kids to focus only on sports and certain music that promotes violence and sex.
[/quote]
I have to take exception to the expectations part here. My mother-in-law, wife, and son are teachers. They will tell you that if you have low expectations, you have a good chance of successfully achieving low results across the entire spectrum of student types. Only a few will excel despite the teachers/parents/administrations combined effort to lower the bar.
High expectations will not float all the boats, but it will raise the bar for everyone, and then it will be only a few who do not achieve the higher standards.
It may be that the school environment is the only place some students will be asked to achieve, due to cultural differences, lack of support from parents, or outside influences, or whatever.
For Bucket:
I get the feeling we are talking past each other for some reason. I congratulated Eeyore on his post because I thought he called it right. I never said I didn't think the "sources" for those links weren't right wing. They are. But I don't think it matters for the purposes of why I cited them. To the extent they described the study by Ogbu, and put forth 3 reasons for the results-- they were accurate. No slant possible.
As far as I can tell, we both agree that the discrepancy is not explained by two of the reasons: difference in IQ or entrenched societal racism. I think we agree that the discrepancy is explained by "Black culture". What you and I seem to be quibbling about is what "culture" means. I don't reject Ogbu's finding about "involuntary minorities" and how that may somehow affect a minority's culture. But I don't believe that is the only factor that plays into why the culture is as it is.
So do we both agree that the discrepancy is explained by the "culture" that exists (or existed at the time of the study)?
I get the feeling we are talking past each other for some reason. I congratulated Eeyore on his post because I thought he called it right. I never said I didn't think the "sources" for those links weren't right wing. They are. But I don't think it matters for the purposes of why I cited them. To the extent they described the study by Ogbu, and put forth 3 reasons for the results-- they were accurate. No slant possible.
As far as I can tell, we both agree that the discrepancy is not explained by two of the reasons: difference in IQ or entrenched societal racism. I think we agree that the discrepancy is explained by "Black culture". What you and I seem to be quibbling about is what "culture" means. I don't reject Ogbu's finding about "involuntary minorities" and how that may somehow affect a minority's culture. But I don't believe that is the only factor that plays into why the culture is as it is.
So do we both agree that the discrepancy is explained by the "culture" that exists (or existed at the time of the study)?
hayleyanne...
I am not seeking to find where you and I agree or to parse words on this subject. I was interested in Mr. Ogbu's work as a whole...as it was not presented in the articles you began this debate with. On the surface I disagree with Mr. Ogbu's findings or I should clarify more..how his findings were originally presented in this debate. I see African American children everyday who come from loving families who care very much about their child's education.
What I am interested in..and what you did not answer me on ..and I have directly asked you..is why are you content with leaving it at the explanation that it is a result of culture? Why do you wish to not question it further? And why do you reject..because you did just that when you said..."The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it." a major factor of this culture's identity, history and relationship in this country? I was hoping rather than you trying to convince me I somehow agree with you...which I don't believe to be true..you would explain why you accept Mr. Ogbu's belief it is a result of cultural differences but not why he feels our cultures differ?
QUOTE
So do we both agree that the discrepancy is explained by the "culture" that exists (or existed at the time of the study)?
I am not seeking to find where you and I agree or to parse words on this subject. I was interested in Mr. Ogbu's work as a whole...as it was not presented in the articles you began this debate with. On the surface I disagree with Mr. Ogbu's findings or I should clarify more..how his findings were originally presented in this debate. I see African American children everyday who come from loving families who care very much about their child's education.
What I am interested in..and what you did not answer me on ..and I have directly asked you..is why are you content with leaving it at the explanation that it is a result of culture? Why do you wish to not question it further? And why do you reject..because you did just that when you said..."The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it." a major factor of this culture's identity, history and relationship in this country? I was hoping rather than you trying to convince me I somehow agree with you...which I don't believe to be true..you would explain why you accept Mr. Ogbu's belief it is a result of cultural differences but not why he feels our cultures differ?
QUOTE(bucket @ Jan 11 2005, 01:23 PM)
hayleyanne...
I am not seeking to find where you and I agree or to parse words on this subject. I was interested in Mr. Ogbu's work as a whole...as it was not presented in the articles you began this debate with. On the surface I disagree with Mr. Ogbu's findings or I should clarify more..how his findings were originally presented in this debate. I see African American children everyday who come from loving families who care very much about their child's education.
What I am interested in..and what you did not answer me on ..and I have directly asked you..is why are you content with leaving it at the explanation that it is a result of culture? Why do you wish to not question it further? And why do you reject..because you did just that when you said..."The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it." a major factor of this culture's identity, history and relationship in this country? I was hoping rather than you trying to convince me I somehow agree with you...which I don't believe to be true..you would explain why you accept Mr. Ogbu's belief it is a result of cultural differences but not why he feels our cultures differ?
QUOTE
So do we both agree that the discrepancy is explained by the "culture" that exists (or existed at the time of the study)?
I am not seeking to find where you and I agree or to parse words on this subject. I was interested in Mr. Ogbu's work as a whole...as it was not presented in the articles you began this debate with. On the surface I disagree with Mr. Ogbu's findings or I should clarify more..how his findings were originally presented in this debate. I see African American children everyday who come from loving families who care very much about their child's education.
What I am interested in..and what you did not answer me on ..and I have directly asked you..is why are you content with leaving it at the explanation that it is a result of culture? Why do you wish to not question it further? And why do you reject..because you did just that when you said..."The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it." a major factor of this culture's identity, history and relationship in this country? I was hoping rather than you trying to convince me I somehow agree with you...which I don't believe to be true..you would explain why you accept Mr. Ogbu's belief it is a result of cultural differences but not why he feels our cultures differ?
Whoah Bucket-- now I am really confused. I never said I don't accept Ogbu's conclusion that Black and White Cultures differ or that some of the differences are attributable to the fact that blacks were slaves. But what relevance does that have to the question posed? Please clarify. The question for debate specifically asks how to explain the disparity in academic performance between similarly situated (in terms of economics) black students and white students from the same school district. Are you saying that the disparity is explained by the fact that blacks were held as slaves? How does slavery affect academic performance today? Or maybe I have missed your point. If so, again, please clarify.
QUOTE
Whoah Bucket-- now I am really confused. I never said I don't accept Ogbu's conclusion that Black and White Cultures differ or that some of the differences are attributable to the fact that blacks were slaves. But what relevance does that have to the question posed? Please clarify. The question for debate specifically asks how to explain the disparity in academic performance between similarly situated (in terms of economics) black students and white students from the same school district. Are you saying that the disparity is explained by the fact that blacks were held as slaves? How does slavery affect academic performance today? Or maybe I have missed your point. If so, again, please clarify.
Why must I do all the explaining around here? I have asked you a specific question..and I felt I already explained my position thoroughly.
When I gave the concept of involuntary minority and specified that in relation to the black community this meant slavery or enslavement..you said and I will quote again...The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it So exactly how did you except this theory of Mr. Ogbu's ? I keep asking you to explain to me how you reject slavery as a major component for this disparity and yet at the same time accept Mr. Ogbu's findings? I honestly have no idea how I can further clarify my position.
My point.... which I guess I have to make as clear as possible is.... once I read what Mr. Ogbu theorized from a more informative source I realised I did agree with him much more than I thought..just not how he was being represented in the sources you provided. I believe..as did Mr. Ogbu..that African Americans are a involuntary minority here in America and that has shaped and influenced their culture and we see this influence in things like educational performance and attitudes. I also agree with his other studies on the concept of involuntary minority. The same occurences he found in other cultures or ethnic identities throughout the world that were also enslaved or subjugated. I think this just further illustrates that it is not so much the individual cultures themselves that permeate these factors but rather the involuntary minority factor that does..it is the one thing they all share in common and all seem to be struggling against...still.
Bucket wrote:
The original question in the thread asked: How do we explain the disparities in academic performance between similarly situated white and minority students in a school district?
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
Black culture explains the disparity. As you indicated, Mr. Ogbu's studies seem to indicate that "cultures" that have been subject to involuntary servitude share certain characteristics: one being a distrust of the majority culture. I can accept this. The black culture has a component that fosters a distrust of the majority culture. The original question posed: What is the explanation for the disparity----- The explanation still boils down to #3: black culture.
The relevance of even asking the question about the root cause of the disparity is to try and get at how to change the disparity. If the explanation for the disparity is Black culture, well then that culture must be changed. What difference does it make why Black culture has a component that mistrusts the "majority"? Isn't the relevant question: how do we change that aspect of Black culture so that it does not promote such academic disparities?
QUOTE
Why must I do all the explaining around here? I have asked you a specific question..and I felt I already explained my position thoroughly.
When I gave the concept of involuntary minority and specified that in relation to the black community this meant slavery or enslavement..you said and I will quote again...The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it So exactly how did you except this theory of Mr. Ogbu's ? I keep asking you to explain to me how you reject slavery as a major component for this disparity and yet at the same time accept Mr. Ogbu's findings? I honestly have no idea how I can further clarify my position.
My point.... which I guess I have to make as clear as possible is.... once I read what Mr. Ogbu theorized from a more informative source I realised I did agree with him much more than I thought..just not how he was being represented in the sources you provided. I believe..as did Mr. Ogbu..that African Americans are a involuntary minority here in America and that has shaped and influenced their culture and we see this influence in things like educational performance and attitudes. I also agree with his other studies on the concept of involuntary minority. The same occurences he found in other cultures or ethnic identities throughout the world that were also enslaved or subjugated. I think this just further illustrates that it is not so much the individual culturals themselves that permeate these factors but rather the involuntary minority factor that does..it is the one thing they all share in common and all seem to be struggling against...still.
When I gave the concept of involuntary minority and specified that in relation to the black community this meant slavery or enslavement..you said and I will quote again...The disparity is explained because African Americans used to be slaves? Sorry don’t buy it So exactly how did you except this theory of Mr. Ogbu's ? I keep asking you to explain to me how you reject slavery as a major component for this disparity and yet at the same time accept Mr. Ogbu's findings? I honestly have no idea how I can further clarify my position.
My point.... which I guess I have to make as clear as possible is.... once I read what Mr. Ogbu theorized from a more informative source I realised I did agree with him much more than I thought..just not how he was being represented in the sources you provided. I believe..as did Mr. Ogbu..that African Americans are a involuntary minority here in America and that has shaped and influenced their culture and we see this influence in things like educational performance and attitudes. I also agree with his other studies on the concept of involuntary minority. The same occurences he found in other cultures or ethnic identities throughout the world that were also enslaved or subjugated. I think this just further illustrates that it is not so much the individual culturals themselves that permeate these factors but rather the involuntary minority factor that does..it is the one thing they all share in common and all seem to be struggling against...still.
The original question in the thread asked: How do we explain the disparities in academic performance between similarly situated white and minority students in a school district?
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
Black culture explains the disparity. As you indicated, Mr. Ogbu's studies seem to indicate that "cultures" that have been subject to involuntary servitude share certain characteristics: one being a distrust of the majority culture. I can accept this. The black culture has a component that fosters a distrust of the majority culture. The original question posed: What is the explanation for the disparity----- The explanation still boils down to #3: black culture.
The relevance of even asking the question about the root cause of the disparity is to try and get at how to change the disparity. If the explanation for the disparity is Black culture, well then that culture must be changed. What difference does it make why Black culture has a component that mistrusts the "majority"? Isn't the relevant question: how do we change that aspect of Black culture so that it does not promote such academic disparities?
QUOTE
The original question in the thread asked: How do we explain the disparities in academic performance between similarly situated white and minority students in a school district?
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
Great and I asked you already several times why you were content with just leaving it there and laying blame with their culture?
How is African American culture a separate thing? It is a culture within American culture..yes? So isn't it really a part of our culture too? Don't we have some influence to how it has evolved and some responsibility to it as Americans ?
This is a debate not a homework assignment and I am not required to inhibit how I think or what conclusions I will come to on this issue. I think I already explained I rejected your resources and made my own conclusions based on my own research. Your question of debate is not limited to only three possible explanations...your sources were very partisan and only offer a limited view point and even a limited insight into Mr. Ogbu's work and thesis.
So I am allowed to choose another explanation or discuss another possible reason..and I did..involuntary minority.
QUOTE(bucket @ Jan 12 2005, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE
The original question in the thread asked: How do we explain the disparities in academic performance between similarly situated white and minority students in a school district?
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
The article I linked to--broke down three possible ways to answer that question:
(1) institutional racism;
(2) genetic differences;
or
(3) black culture
I do not believe that the disparity is explained by genetic differences-- I think that is absurd. I do not believe that the disparity is explained by institutional racism. Of the three possible explanations-- I choose: black culture.
Great and I asked you already several times why you were content with just leaving it there and laying blame with their culture?
How is African American culture a separate thing? It is a culture within American culture..yes? So isn't it really a part of our culture too? Don't we have some influence to how it has evolved and some responsibility to it as Americans ?
This is a debate not a homework assignment and I am not required to inhibit how I think or what conclusions I will come to on this issue. I think I already explained I rejected your resources and made my own conclusions based on my own research. Your question of debate is not limited to only three possible explanations...your sources were very partisan and only offer a limited view point and even a limited insight into Mr. Ogbu's work and thesis.
So I am allowed to choose another explanation or discuss another possible reason..and I did..involuntary minority.
From your response I can't tell whether you want to continue discussing this issue or not. If you don't that's fine. If you do, then I would ask: What is the difference between saying that the disparity can be explained by "aspects of the Black culture" or explained by the effect that "involuntary servitude" has had on Black Culture? As I stated in my prior post, the purpose for posing the question at all is to try to posit possible solutions to the problem. Does the difference in the explanation for the disparity (if there is one) mean that the possible solutions are different? If so, how?
This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.