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BoF
Among the issues that will be facing the new Congress are procedures involving ethics investigations.

QUOTE
WASHINGTON - In the wake of back-to-back ethics slaps at House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, House Republicans are preparing to make it harder to begin ethics investigations and could remove the Republican chairman who presided over the admonishments delivered to DeLay last fall.

A House leadership aide said that a package of rules changes to be presented to the House when the 109th Congress convenes Tuesday could include a plan that would require a majority vote of the ethics panel to pursue a formal investigation. At present, a deadlock on the panel, which is evenly split between the two parties, keeps the case pending. The possible change, the aide said, would mean that a tie vote would effectively dismiss the case.

<snip>

It remained uncertain whether Rep. Joel Hefley of Colorado, the head of the ethics panel, would stay in that post. A spokesman for Speaker Dennis Hastert, who would play a chief role in determining the appointment, said no decision had been made.

Many rank-and-file Republicans openly expressed dissatisfaction with Hefley after the committee reports critical of DeLay were issued. They said Hefley had allowed Democrats to score political points against DeLay, of Sugar Land, for conduct that did not merit such scrutiny. But the potential for change in the chairmanship has drawn criticism from Democrats and outside ethics watchdogs.

<snip>

Democrats are planning to try next week to force a floor vote on a proposal requiring any member of either party's leadership to step aside if indicted on a criminal charge. The move would reverse last month's vote by Republicans -- taken in a closed-door party meeting -- to eliminate such a requirement for Republicans; the aim was to protect DeLay should he be indicted in a campaign finance investigation under way in Texas.
In Texas, state Republican lawmakers are considering some maneuvers of their own in light of the investigation. One proposal would take authority for prosecuting the campaign finance case away from the Democratic district attorney in Austin, who has indicted three DeLay associates, and give it to the state attorney general, a Republican. Another possible move would legalize corporate campaign contributions like the ones that figure into the state case, potentially undermining the prosecution.


From Fort Worth Star Telegram article, Thursday, 12-30-04

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/10529687.htm

QUOTE
There's an unsavory -- and unacceptable -- trend detectable in the way Republican leaders in Congress are approaching ethics rules: Anything that becomes inconvenient to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay must go.
Thus, ethics rules changes being floated for the next Congress would allow investigations to be stymied, rather than go forward, if there's a tie vote on the panel.

<snip>
But Republicans, who came to power promising cleaner, more honorable government, now seem to prefer wagon-circling to even-handed ethics enforcement.

<snip>

Sure, House members should clamp down on disreputable conduct.

Even when it involves their own leaders.


From Fort Worth Star Telegram Editorial 12-31-04

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/10537965.htm?1c

QUESTIONS FOR DEBATE

1. With the changing of the Republican caucus rules several weeks ago, and possible actions on ethics procedures by the new Republican Congress does this indicate a trend as the Fort Worth Star Telegram implies?

2. I have heard more than one person say that “all politicians are crooks.” While this may be cynical, it’s out there. If the new procedures are adopted, will public reaction be:

a. Minimal, in other words involve a shrug of the shoulders and see it as more of the "same ‘ol, same ‘ol?"

b. With the indignation expressed by the relatively conservative Fort worth Star Telegram’s editorial.

c. Support rules changes by the Republican majority?


*Note: I alone am responsible for this thread, but wish to express my appreciation to Wertz for some helpful suggestions.
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Amlord
I think this issue is a "Slow News Day" type of story.

The format of these ethics investigations makes the Ethics Committee very similar to a Grand Jury. It is the job of a Grand Jury to ascertain whether or not criminal charges should be brought against a person. The Grand Jury does not decide on guilt or innocence, rather they decide if there is reasonable grounds for charges to be brought.

The Ethics Committee is similar. They decide whether or not an investigation is needed.

Now ask yourself: would you want Grand Juries to be able to bring charges with a split decision? Or does majority rule? Many grand juries have an even number of jurors, and a clear majority is needed to bring charges. What does a grand jury do?

Should this situation require less than a majority?
nileriver
I find this a common theme withing politics actually. IN washington state, many votes were nulled illegally, it then came back to them which changed the outcome of the voting overall in a major fashion, the other party in which did not care about the votes being illegally nulled were then trying to see if any laws were broken when taking those votes into account in the count. So in light of the many situations like this between the politics and power, the law for the most part stays on the drawing board or looked at as something to get around, as in to get your way. I am trying to be impartial in my post in any are wondering actually.

From florida, to texas, to washington, to most anything related, if it involves one of the two groups, you may find a force in the mechanism of such actions related to relations between the two groups withing politics overall. Like i said in another post, this trend will be something then forced to either indirectly or directly adapt to in order to stay fit for success.
BoF
QUOTE(Amlord @ Jan 4 2005, 10:21 AM)
I think this issue is a "Slow News Day" type of story.


If this is not a "Slow News Day" story, apparently it will be short lived. Fear of public retribution seems to have curbed Republican hubris, at least temporarily. The best part though is that “Hot Tub” Tom DeLay didn’t have the ball bounce in his direction this time. What a crying shame! ermm.gif If this sounds vindictive, then so be it. Nothing would give me more satisfaction than the total destruction of DeLay as a public "servant." This is the same DeLay that brought five new Texas Republican seats to the U. S. House by forcing the issue of redistricting in the Texas Legislature in three costly special sessions well before the traditionallly scheduled census year redistricting. What goes ‘round comes ‘round. w00t.gif

QUOTE
WASHINGTON - In a reversal that reflected fears of a public backlash, House Republicans on Monday rescinded an ethics rule adopted in November that allowed party leaders and chairmen to retain their posts if they were indicted.

<snip>

The Republicans also backed away from a proposal that would have made it harder to punish lawmakers for ethical breaches. It appeared, however, that they were still inclined to adopt another change that would make it easier to kill an ethics complaint against a member of Congress.

The decisions illustrated growing Republican fears that any wholesale change in ethics rules would draw continued attention to rebukes of DeLay last year by the House ethics committee. Republicans said that controversy, if kept alive, would detract from their ambitious policy agenda.

<snip>

Brendan Daly, an aide to House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi of California, said: ‘Even for Republicans, this proposed change was unconscionable. The issue simply became too hot for them to handle, so they had to drop it.’


http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/10561913.htm?1c.

This link should open the first time. The Fort Worth Star Telegram apparently places a cookie on one's machine that prevents an articled from being opened a second time or a subsequent articles from being opened the first time without clearing cookies or registering. Registration is free.
Christopher
Sorry Amlord but this is definetly not a slow news day story.
But you should be heartened by the response of your fellow Republicans because apparently they made it very clear to the party leaders that they do NOT approve of what is taking place. Furthermore the attempts to remove the head of the Ethics Commitee itself has met opposition from republican loyalists vs. the party career politicians. Rep. Joel Hefley from Colorado apparently has many supporters among the GOP who will not let a principled man be hung out to dry for De lay---who may not have the popularity he needs. The GOP spin machine is of course on full steam and is already turning the change into a Hollywood esque day time TV drama of a man who would give it all away for the good of his party and America drumroll.gif us.gif drumroll.gif
Amlord
From the article:
QUOTE
Sure, House members should clamp down on disreputable conduct.

Even when it involves their own leaders.


I agree with this sentiment completely.

As the article states, the Committee has voted to "come down" on DeLay three times this term. How exactly is changing this rule equivalent to "circling the wagons" around Delay?

DeLay ethics rebuke steps up pressure on House 'Hammer'

QUOTE
The ethics panel, in a unanimous, bipartisan vote Wednesday night, rebuked DeLay for calling the Federal Aviation Administration to interfere in a Texas political dispute and for hosting a fund-raiser attended by corporate executives with an interest in a federal energy bill. The panel earlier admonished DeLay for allegedly linking Smith's vote on the Medicare bill to the endorsement of Smith's son.


I could see if the rebuke was evenly split and this change would have saved Delay, but this particular vote was unanimous.

The original op ed piece jumps to some fairly unsubstantiated conclusions about the reasons behind the proposed Rules change.

Notice how it was Delay that decided this was a bad idea. Kinda strange if he was to be the beneficiary of the change, don't you think? Maybe he is a stand up guy?

As BoF stated, all politicians are crooks, it's just a matter of degree. laugh.gif
BoF
QUOTE(Amlord @ Jan 4 2005, 03:52 PM)
As BoF stated, all politicians are crooks, it's just a matter of degree.  laugh.gif


Clarification. I didn't say this I said that some people already think all politician are crooks. LOL

QUOTE
Notice how it was Delay that decided this was a bad idea. Kinda strange if he was to be the beneficiary of the change, don't you think? Maybe he is a stand up guy?



I honestly think DeLay saw not pursuing the matter as in his own self-interest.
BlackOps
QUOTE
QUESTIONS FOR DEBATE

1. With the changing of the Republican caucus rules several weeks ago, and possible actions on ethics procedures by the new Republican Congress does this indicate a trend as the Fort Worth Star Telegram implies?

2. I have heard more than one person say that “all politicians are crooks.” While this may be cynical, it’s out there. If the new procedures are adopted, will public reaction be:

a. Minimal, in other words involve a shrug of the shoulders and see it as more of the "same ‘ol, same ‘ol?"

b. With the indignation expressed by the relatively conservative Fort worth Star Telegram’s editorial.

c. Support rules changes by the Republican majority?



1 - IMHO this is not a new trend, but actions taken by both parties over the years to reduce censure of their own as much as possible.

2a - Will most probably be the reaction by the majority of citizens. There will be of course those who will take up the cause and charge ahead with as much steam as they can muster in order to make appropiate changes.

For the most part, politics has been considered a "dirty" business. One only has to look at our national and state histories to find countless examples of unethical actions taken by our elected officials. You know the old sayings - "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", "What they (constituants) don't know won't hurt them", "Hey, you help me and I'll owe you big time", etc.

It is a regretfully "acquired" trait that many individuals seek powerful positions in order to advance their personal agendas and gain.

The Congressional Rules of Ethics (Conduct) is a manual of over 545 pages, containing legalese that would in some instances take a "Philadelphia Lawyer" to interpret, and then only to find countless loopholes.

While an Explorer Scout, I had the opportunity to live on an Native American Indian Reservation for 4 weeks. I was welcomed into the tribe, lived, ate, slept as they did and made my own clothing as they did. At the end of my stay, I was named by the Tribal Chief "Strong of Heart".

What I came away with was a sense of how life, individual and within a society should be, respectful, considerate, helping one another in time of need, a demonstrated code of ethics, morals and integrity. I have wondered all these many years why "civilized" man has to make life so damned difficult all in the name of progress.
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