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DaffyGrl
There are 586 articles on Google about Prince Harry’s latest faux pas: dressing up as a Nazi at a costume party.

QUOTE
The picture was snapped by a guest at a costume party on Saturday and apparently sold to the Sun. Prince William, Harry's older brother, reportedly was attired as a leopard and lion for the birthday party, which had a "native and colonial" theme.

"It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize," Harry said in a statement issued through the office of his father, Prince Charles. CBC Canada

What I’d like to know, what do the Nazis have to do with “native and colonial”? And how do you dress up as a leopard and a lion? wacko.gif

Anyway, back to the topic, what is up with seemingly intelligent people doing things like this (remember the judge who went to a party in blackface)? What incredibly poor taste for someone who knows he's always going to be watched.

Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?


And just out of curiosity, is it credible to think there are still people in this world who believe dressing in blackface or Nazi uniform is OK?
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Government Mule
Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

I think that he went to a costume party, and intended to have a little fun. What is he? 20? I think that 20 somethings don't understand the the horrors behind the Nazi symbol. That is a good thing. We are moving on. We are getting past that moment in history.

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?

It is unimportant because it was a costume. Akin to an American dressing up as a towel head.

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?

No. If so, to who? What Harry should do is hire more body guards. The paparazzis should be the ones apologizing.
AuthorMusician
Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

One would hope so. In college, one of my female friends dressed up as a pregnant nun, which was very tasteless for the Catholics at the Halloween party. Good thing everyone was smoking pot (1974). It shocked, then was funny and the music went on . . .

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?

I'll say it's more important when you're a public figurehead and a prince. Show a little class, will yah?

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?

Yes, because his smart butt is supported by the public. Either that or get everyone stoned and into the music . . . purple haze, all in my brain . . .

I do want to see the leopard/lion getup. Sounds like something I'd do, mix up costumes -- and there's no drug excuse any longer! Just seems like fun.

Oh, and I hope we never get over the Nazis.
turnea
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 13 2005, 05:38 PM)
Oh, and I hope we never get over the Nazis.
*


Gotta ditto AM on this one, if "twentysomethings" don't understand the horrors of the Nazis then we can be darned sure the UK's history education system really needs some serious help.

I think it was a pretty lousy joke, he should apologize, and submit to education by some of the leading Jewish groups. That'll teach the runt... laugh.gif
Rancid Uncle
Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?
I think this is much worse than that. A Nazi uniform is disgusting, I don't see how Prince Harry or anyone for that matter could stand to wear a one. He wrapped himself in a symbol of some the greatest human cruelty that's ever existed.

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads? He's a symbol of Britain. Britain should be ashamed their symbol is that ignorant and insensitive.

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?
That seems sort of superficial. What he should do is go to a holocaust museum.
lordhelmet
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jan 13 2005, 04:05 PM)
 
There are 586 articles on Google about Prince Harry’s latest faux pas: dressing up as a Nazi at a costume party. 
 
QUOTE
The picture was snapped by a guest at a costume party on Saturday and apparently sold to the Sun. Prince William, Harry's older brother, reportedly was attired as a leopard and lion for the birthday party, which had a "native and colonial" theme.  
 
"It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize," Harry said in a statement issued through the office of his father, Prince Charles. CBC Canada

What I’d like to know, what do the Nazis have to do with “native and colonial”? And how do you dress up as a leopard and a lion? wacko.gif

Anyway, back to the topic, what is up with seemingly intelligent people doing things like this (remember the judge who went to a party in blackface)? What incredibly poor taste for someone who knows he's always going to be watched.

Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?


And just out of curiosity, is it credible to think there are still people in this world who believe dressing in blackface or Nazi uniform is OK?
*



Perhaps, ole Harry was on his way to a casting call for Mel Brook's "The Producers" and took a wrong turn?

Seriously, Harry should have exhibited better judgement. Keith Moon, the late drummer from "The Who" used to pull that stunt to shock people but he was a rock musician and well known lunatic. A member of the royal family, whether he likes it or not, will have every move scrutinized. Harry was foolish if he didn't think that such a getup would result in a serious reaction.

It really puts his maturity at question. Or, he's crying out for help and wants to be disowned by the royals as soon as possible?

If that is not the case, he should make a public apology.
Fife and Drum
Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

With all do respect to the House of Windsor, if you read the British message boards many claim that he’s really not that bright.

On one hand I have the utmost empathy for this young man. I can’t imagine the pain he endured watching the marriage of his royal parents dissolve over a mistress, his mother tragically killed when he was still young and the conspiracy theories that followed (many accusing his father). One can easily understand his lack of sensitivity.

But when it boils down to it, he’s still responsibility for his royal actions.

If I had to choose between the two options, I'd go with rebellion, he just simply may not enjoy being a royal. My guess: he's twenty! If I made the headlines everytime I acted the idiot when I was 20 I would have needed my own newspaper.

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figure heads?

I think that’s the reason it is important. As the ‘face of the Union Jack’, the royals are probably the most visible symbol for all of the United Kingdom.

The timing couldn’t have been worse, the Queen is set to attend a commemorative ceremony at Auswitch in a few weeks.

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?
Many Brits are claiming he should attend the Auswitch ceremony and take an active role or make an apology on the the tely. Both are probably appropriate.
bucket
In case some of you are unaware the whole Nazi Hitler WWII thing is often treated in a very comically joking manner in the UK. Like in Faulty Towers when they did the....don't mention the war skit with the German guests. Or that whole utterly ridiculous show that takes place in France during the war....can't even be bothered to remember it's name. Making fun ridiculing and presenting the the Nazis in a frivolous manner is a time honored tradition.
What about even the American show Hogans Heroes.? I have no idea how having idiots yukking it up on TV in SS uniforms running a concentration camp is any less disrespectful than poor Harry was being.

The press is just... as usual... trying to sell newspapers...when I first saw it I thought..my god what is he doing? Then when I actually read the article and learnt it was for a costume party..well... I immediately lost interest. In fact I even felt a little bit tricked.
Paladin Elspeth
I think that if Prince Harry is just doing it for shock value and not taking into consideration that his family is the symbol of the U.K. and therefore taken seriously for their actions, then he should be afforded only the same amount of respect he demonstrates, and considerably less serious attention.

Harry violated a taboo, and while we don't need his head on a platter for it, Britons in particular do have a right to ask just what kind of education in history and values he obtained from the allegedly top-shelf schools he attended, at the cost of his subjects.

I join the ranks of those intoning, "We are not amused."
DaffyGrl
Fife and Drum, your post was prophetic. It looks like an angry dad is sending his son to Auschwitz:
QUOTE
Britain's Prince Charles has ordered his son Harry to visit Auschwitz after he caused outrage around the world by wearing a Nazi uniform to a party, the Sun newspaper reported on Friday.
<snip>
The voice of the establishment, The Times, dismissed his apology as "feeble" and said he had fallen in with "a dubious group of self-indulgent young men who are apparently content with a life of pointless privilege." Reuters

QUOTE(bucket)
What about even the American show Hogans Heroes.? I have no idea how having idiots yukking it up on TV in SS uniforms running a concentration camp is any less disrespectful than poor Harry was being.

Funny you should mention HH. It was very controversial in its day. One item to remember: the show took place in a POW camp, not a concentration camp. The Germans were portrayed as fools that the Americans easily triumphed over. From this site:
QUOTE
Yes, this is Nazi Germany, or at least as close to it as a half-hour sitcom reasonably could be expected to come. Writer Richard M. Powell, who set the show’s tone in the first script and went on to write 29 of the 168 episodes, explains that rather than trivializing Nazis his purpose was to show them "’in a highly unfavorable light…. I tried to show that the whole Nazi regime was based on fear’" (Royce, xv). One subject, however, apparently was either explicitly or implicitly forbidden – the attempted genocide of Europe’s Jews. No episode of Hogan’s Heroes mentions Jews, deportations, ghettos, concentration/death camps, or mass murder. On the other hand, references to "the Master Race" are common, and allusions in many episodes do lead viewers to the distinct conclusion that the Nazis indeed are engaged in far more atrocious behavior than we see onscreen.

So, while confusion of Hogan’s Heroes with the events of the Holocaust probably is unjustified, association is reasonable. 

I disagree with your portrayal of the costume as trivial. I believe he showed an appalling lack of sensitivity, and incredibly poor taste.
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Ptarmigan
Harry's not very bright and acts exactly as an incredibly rich teenager might...i.e. he drinks like a fish, does what he likes and doesn't really care what the papers say, because - at the end of the day, his family own castles....

Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?

I doubt it - he has very little to rebel against - and the royal family don't really care very much about shocking the public - they really have very little contact with them. Their social circles tend to be the incredibly rich - and the incredibly rich tend not to worry about the opinions of anyone who isn't incredibly rich.

Also these people live in a different world. He's a pampered elite - so why should he care. He probably just saw a Nazi uniform and thought 'Nazi's - cool, no-one else will be dressed as a Nazi - thats the costume for me!'.

Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?

It is important to the royals - they exist purely because they have the support of the British public. If the British public start to greatly dislike the Royals then their chance of surviving the 21st century are greatly diminished.
But Harry isn't anyone important otherwise - his brother may be King one day (personally I hope not - William's only slightly more intelligent) - but Harry is never going to be anything other than the drunken brother of a King. (Unless Will dies of course).

Should Prince Harry make a public apology?
Again, because he isn't really anyone of importance I don't see why he should. He probably will, but only because his dad is terrified that one day the British public might decide that they would prefer to be a republic.

bucket pointed out that we tend to treat WW2 as a joke - and in many ways we do - but then treating it as a joke was very common during the war and kept up public morale during the Blitzkreig. Very few British people would consider dressing up as a Nazi to go to a fancy dress party though (other than the incredibly dim) - for one thing, Britain today is an incredibly multicultural country, so at any fancy dress party, your chances of meeting (say) someone of German, Jewish, Polish etc descent are sufficiently high to make it too risky!

BTW I'm a strong supporter of the idea of a British Republic, where we elect the Head of State and kick out the royal family. Sadly only about 20% of the UK agrees with me on this - but hopefully Harry's antics should maybe get another 1 or 2% on there.... But my arguments will be biased because of this!
Julian
I agree entirely with Ptarmigan on this - I'm rather pleased that Harry has shown himself to be an insensitive igrorant fool with no more right to held up as a figurehead than any other 20 year old with few qualifications and no personal ambition beyond family inertia.

Royal commentators here have been saying since Diana died that the one hope for a 21st century monarchy was to consistently demonstrate how in touch with ordinary Britons the younger generation of Royals are, and this kind of thing (along with fighting with photographers outside nightclubs in the small hours, waltzing into Sandhurst ahead of hundreds of more qualified candidates) helps to reinforce the real message that they are completely out of touch and probably unable to ever be in touch without radical reform of the monarchy.

I mean, the theme for the fancy dress party in question ws "Colonials and Natives"!! - the kid had to be pretty stupid to link this to a Nazi. Also, the costume he had was pretty rubbish - basically a beige shirt and chinos with some stuck-on collar studs and a home-made Nazi armband. Either he went to the cheapest hire shop he could find and had to take what they had left (so didn't give it much thought - damning in it's own way) or he chose to wear it from a larger selection (or got one of his servants to do it for him - either way, rather MORE damning since he had to make a decision).

His brother (the supposed sensible one) doesn't come out of it well either, since he didn't stop his brother making such a fool of himself. Maybe someday we'll remember than even his sainted mother thought Gordonstoun was too old fashioned and decided that Eton was the modern school with its finger on the pulse of modern Britain that her boys neeeded. Yes Di. Using junior boys as personal slaves and wearing frock coats made them into the men they are. Thanks. Republicans up and down the country are thanking you for it as type. thumbsup.gif

By the way, the photo splashed on the world's front pages yesterday wasn't taken by an intrusive paparazzo with a telephoto lens - it was taken by another of the chinless trustafarians attending the party trying to make money. Even they were so clueless about the significance that they thought the pictures of Wills in his big cat cossie were worth more money than Ubergruppenfuhrer Harry.

One good thing that might come out of this is that his stupidity and ignorance (and I don't think there was any real malice involved) has highlighted a recent survey that showed that most under-25s in the UK don't know what the Holocaust was or who it involved. Maybe some of the coverage of this story, especially now Charles has laid down the law and sent him to the Auschwitz memorial ceremonies as "punishment" (only the Royals could look on a foreign holiday with deep significance as "punishment"), will help to reverse this trend.

As an aside, the closest large town to where the party was held - the one most likely to have a costume hire shop - is the one I'm sitting in. I'd put money on which one he went to if it was rented, and he should have gone to Skywalker's instead. At least he might actually have looked vaguely like a WW2 German soldier, rather than the slow-witted scruffy Nazi sympathiser he ended up looking like. Plus they've got a pretty good selection available - nobody would have batted an eyelid had he been dressed as a walrus, a Klingon or a Roman soldier.

For those that say I'm heartless and that poor Wills and Harry have to live under round the clock scrutiny - well, they could always renounce all their rights not only to the monarchy but also to the inherited wealth and privilege they live on and go make their own way in the world. In a moment of lucidity, Diana once said she hoped that one or both of her boys would go to medical school and work as a hospital doctor to actively and personally put something back into the world. What does Wills study instead? Art history. What is his chosen career path afterwards? Sandhurst and the Army. Harry is too much of a thickie, or too lazy, to even qualify for university level education (which given that he's received one of the finest schoolings money can buy, doesn't bode too well for his innate abilities). What does he choose for a career? Sanhurst and the Army. About the only career that pretty much guarantees both of them will only ever have to mix with hoi polloi on official Royal engagements.

Jeez, don't strain yourself, kids.

Lastly, it is a dangerous misconception to think that the monarch is "just a figurehead". They still have some real and important powers - not least appointing the Prime Minister. The convention of appointing the leader of the winning party in a General Election as Prime Minister is just that - a convention, not a law or a duty. In a close election, it would be very easy for the monarch to appoint the candidate they like most, even if they got fewer votes. (This has apparently happened under Elizabeth II, though I don't remember when.)

The current incumbent monarch has seen political neutrality to be a necessary cornerstone of the institution. Her eldest son as yet shows no such compunction. If he lives to be King and still spouts his half-thoughts on political matters from the throne I predict renewed vigour in British republicanism (so I , as a British republican, hope he does so.)

And many of the powers of Government that people hate so much in this country - not requiring cabinet or parliament approval of decision making - rest on the Royal Prerogative - the power of the Crown. To my mind, that power should not rest with the monarch in person, or the constitutional edifice of the monarchy and its ministers, but with the people. I want the armed forces and the police to swear allegiance to People and Country, not Queen and Country. I want a national anthem that's about the people, not the monarch. (Luckily, being Welsh, I have one. mrsparkle.gif )
bucket
QUOTE
One item to remember: the show took place in a POW camp, not a concentration camp. The Germans were portrayed as fools that the Americans easily triumphed over.

Oh right a POW camp..well then that does make it much more funny. wacko.gif
I just don't see much of a difference and I don't get how you can defend this TV show and yet condemn Harry. Seems to me they are of equal poor taste...or at least in the same genus. Also I don't see how having Harry in a Nazi youth costume somehow removes the foolery from the portrayal.
Artemise
The thing is, I dont think he meant/understood anything by it, his younger brother went along with him to rent the costume and didnt pick up on it either.

Ok, so here are the most highly educated in the world, and they see nothing strange about a Nazi uniform. That might tell you what is being taught in schools to the elite, and their sensibilities, and also perhaps, they are just dumb teens.

In my mind, its an easy oversight from a teen. Excusable, and I know he is suffering from it, today and for awhile.

Its not as if the Royals cared a crap for the Jews, or their plight, that is utterly clear by the fact that the poor boy never learned in school that it was a big deal. What they dont want is a member 'appearing' not to care! Horrors.

Its a shame he will have to take the blame for his 'eduators' oversights, but live and learn. Its all scandal with them, all the time. Why Britain annoys themselves putting up with them Ill never understand, they should revolt like the French and just denounce the whole lot as freaks and (moslty) useless parasites.
DaffyGrl
QUOTE(bucket)
Oh right a POW camp..well then that does make it much more funny. 
I just don't see much of a difference and I don't get how you can defend this TV show and yet condemn Harry. Seems to me they are of equal poor taste...or at least in the same genus. Also I don't see how having Harry in a Nazi youth costume somehow removes the foolery from the portrayal.

The show aired in the early 60's; not exactly the most politically correct time. How do you equate a 45 year old TV show with a young person's actions in 2005? And PS, I don't appreciate your sarcasm. I was not evaluating the show's "funniness", just pointing out a misconception about it.
bucket
Hogan's Heroes is the only American example I can think of.

You have your own view of this and it is without question from an American perspective..I have a different perspective and I am quite aware of how the Germans and more specifically the Nazis are portrayed in the UK. I don't think you are. So it seemed futile to me to continue to make mention of the British media examples because apparently you must not be familiar with them as I would have thought you would have commented on John Cleese goose stepping about with his finger held under his nose.
Harry seeing the Nazi uniform as a joke is a very plausible explanation. German Nazis are to this day a pretty popular target in British media and I am sure Harry has seen them in a comedic light far more than he has in a serious one.

I am also sure you are unaware that this is a current theme or issue between these two nations. Even DE's foreign minister has made complaints about the British media's portrayal of Germans. Perhaps to you and your own cultural norms this is a horrid and appalling act ..but to me it is a very common (if not xenophobic) national pastime.
Wertz
Heh - one of the most interesting things about this, which no one seems to be picking up on (at least, not here), is that maybe Harry's roots are showing. Further to Julian's thoughts, perhaps this will serve as a reminder to some British royalists that the "House of Windsor" is, in fact, the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and that the current monarchy is about as English as wienerschnitzel.

Ironically, Princess Diana was, in part, descended from the Stuarts, so her offspring would have a more legitimate claim to the throne than anyone since James II. Sadly, it would appear that the young prince is taking more after his father's side of the family. shifty.gif
Ptarmigan
QUOTE
Heh - one of the most interesting things about this, which no one seems to be picking up on (at least, not here), is that maybe Harry's roots are showing. Further to Julian's thoughts, perhaps this will serve as a reminder to some British royalists that the "House of Windsor" is, in fact, the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and that the current monarchy is about as English as wienerschnitzel.


True, but given that the English themselves are a mixture of the original Britannic tribes, Romans (Italians), Saxons (Germans), Normans (French), Vikings (Danes) (if you're a Scot) and the huge number of British people who are of Indian or African descent, then really, that the royal family is descended from Germans is neither here nor there!
ConservPat
QUOTE
Is it just a matter of rebellion and an immature desire to shock?
Could be that, or he could just be an idiot. I don't know enough about Harry to make much of a judgement...Either way, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do. I guess he cut his Party Etiquette 101 Class in Oxford [or wherever he goes].

QUOTE
Is this unimportant because the “royals” aren’t much more than figureheads?
No. The only real job of any importance that the royals have nowadays is just to not do something stupid in public...Oops.

QUOTE
Should Prince Harry make a public apology?
I wouldn't really care either way. But he should take some time to think about what he did, perhaps take the time to think about the millions who were killed by people who wore Nazi unis to parties also.

CP us.gif
Wertz
QUOTE(Ptarmigan @ Jan 19 2005, 04:37 AM)
QUOTE
Heh - one of the most interesting things about this, which no one seems to be picking up on (at least, not here), is that maybe Harry's roots are showing. Further to Julian's thoughts, perhaps this will serve as a reminder to some British royalists that the "House of Windsor" is, in fact, the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and that the current monarchy is about as English as wienerschnitzel.


True, but given that the English themselves are a mixture of the original Britannic tribes, Romans (Italians), Saxons (Germans), Normans (French), Vikings (Danes) (if you're a Scot) and the huge number of British people who are of Indian or African descent, then really, that the royal family is descended from Germans is neither here nor there!
*

Granted, but the import of "foreign" monarchs is relatively recent in the overall scope of British history - and certainly the departure from primogeniture and the severing of the bloodline following the restoration should be of import to die-hard royalists. Those who are genuinely staunch supporters of the monarchy should all be Jacobites. As it turns out, those who are most loyal to their ersatz royalty are usually the least loyal to the history and traditions of monarchy. smile.gif
Leonard
I think it is apparent that Prince Harry will never be a Rhodes scholar.

While it is hard to believe that he hasn’t been exposed to the horrors of the Nazi regime in school, one should note that he didn’t put on the armband as an act of malice.

Before his untimely death, I recall seeing Israeli news photos of posters of Yitzhak Rabin in a black Nazi uniform appparently plastered up by supporters of his political opponents. Now, that was malice.

Harry was thoughtless. But he is young and I am certain he has learned his lesson.

The whole incident is unfortunate. But what truly troubles me is that Prince William and others at the party should have realized that the symbol stood for a movement that was one of the most heinous in history.
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