Full Version: Mexico Threatens to Sue Arizona
Saw this story a couple of days ago, and I'm surprised no one else has brought it up yet.
In November, Arizonans passed Proposition 200, to help combat the problems they are having with illegal immigration, and what it's costing the state.
Proposition 200 has two basic parts. One attempts to prevent illegal immigrants from voting, by requiring proof of citizenship, and proof of identity, when registering to vote. The second provision, requires anyone applying for public funds, such as welfare, to provide the same - Proof of citizenship, and a valid ID.
Apparently, though, the Mexican government considers these requirements odious, as Arizona government no longer allows the use of the "Matricula Consular" a much fraudulently used document, as a valid form of identification. Further, Mexico seems to think that these requirements are a violation of "Human Rights", and is threatening to sue Arizona in US Federal courts, and even in International Court, if possible, to have Prop. 200 overturned. The story is here.
Questions for debate -
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
In November, Arizonans passed Proposition 200, to help combat the problems they are having with illegal immigration, and what it's costing the state.
Proposition 200 has two basic parts. One attempts to prevent illegal immigrants from voting, by requiring proof of citizenship, and proof of identity, when registering to vote. The second provision, requires anyone applying for public funds, such as welfare, to provide the same - Proof of citizenship, and a valid ID.
Apparently, though, the Mexican government considers these requirements odious, as Arizona government no longer allows the use of the "Matricula Consular" a much fraudulently used document, as a valid form of identification. Further, Mexico seems to think that these requirements are a violation of "Human Rights", and is threatening to sue Arizona in US Federal courts, and even in International Court, if possible, to have Prop. 200 overturned. The story is here.
Questions for debate -
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?
No. Never. They have absolutely no place trying to dictate to America how we run our country. To ever consider it would be a dangerous precedent. For Mexico to try and act offended because we are tired of their refugees streaming across our borders is ridiculous. For a country that forces their own people to have to flee their homes to try and find ways to support their families shows a sick and twisted lack of compassion for their own people. If Mexico is not careful they shall probably find that we are very close to the point where we could get enough votes to force the complete sealing of the border. As well as simply automatically deporting all illegals when they are discovered. The police forces here have avoided this but tension in the state are beginning to turn ugly.
Perhaps it is time the International community begins to place pressure on the Mexican government to finally deal with the problems their people face instead of hoping that illegals can send home enough money to keep things going back home.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
None, simply because except for a few of the sillier fringe liberal types I doubt any American would take any such ruling seriously.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
As long as businesses can continue to profit from the virtual slavery of the Illegals market their will never be any answer from Washington until tensions rise to a boiling point and people get hurt. Virtually every politician and professionals group here in AZ--doctors-nurses-firefighters--tried to prevent support for Prop 200 from building and the result was failure.
Even the attempts by politicians like the Mayor of Phoenix have failed as the courts have upheld the Prop. I firmly believe that this issue may be a breaking point for politicians. Try to prevent and you will probably not get re elected.
The people of the state of Arizona have gone beyond the point of tired and I foresee more propositions designed to make life here in Az next to impossible for illegal border crossers.
Personally I support the idea of sending the Mexican government the bills we encur here in AZ for the services and schooling we provide the illegals and sue for damages.
No. Never. They have absolutely no place trying to dictate to America how we run our country. To ever consider it would be a dangerous precedent. For Mexico to try and act offended because we are tired of their refugees streaming across our borders is ridiculous. For a country that forces their own people to have to flee their homes to try and find ways to support their families shows a sick and twisted lack of compassion for their own people. If Mexico is not careful they shall probably find that we are very close to the point where we could get enough votes to force the complete sealing of the border. As well as simply automatically deporting all illegals when they are discovered. The police forces here have avoided this but tension in the state are beginning to turn ugly.
Perhaps it is time the International community begins to place pressure on the Mexican government to finally deal with the problems their people face instead of hoping that illegals can send home enough money to keep things going back home.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
None, simply because except for a few of the sillier fringe liberal types I doubt any American would take any such ruling seriously.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
As long as businesses can continue to profit from the virtual slavery of the Illegals market their will never be any answer from Washington until tensions rise to a boiling point and people get hurt. Virtually every politician and professionals group here in AZ--doctors-nurses-firefighters--tried to prevent support for Prop 200 from building and the result was failure.
Even the attempts by politicians like the Mayor of Phoenix have failed as the courts have upheld the Prop. I firmly believe that this issue may be a breaking point for politicians. Try to prevent and you will probably not get re elected.
The people of the state of Arizona have gone beyond the point of tired and I foresee more propositions designed to make life here in Az next to impossible for illegal border crossers.
Personally I support the idea of sending the Mexican government the bills we encur here in AZ for the services and schooling we provide the illegals and sue for damages.
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?if it passes why should they waste our time and money. If it has not then let it go to court and be upheld.
Since it states it has been upheld this is nothing but an extortion atemptattemptxicoMexicob]2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? [/b]
none. The only power or court that matters is one that has the ability to back it up with force.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
As long as they are in the vote buying business and the companies can rake in the bucks,never.
It will take an even biger biggerevent that came up from the south to even get their attention.
http:/http.lowwwolocr/frdrrdfrdipdf/TerrOrTerrOrgCrimedf
[pdfte] A Growing Threat in the Tri-BoTrir Area of South America. (Terrorist and Organized Crime Groups in the Tri-BoTrir Area (TBA) of South America. A Report Prepared under an InteraInteragencyment by the Federal Research Division, Library of Congress, July 2003.)[/quote]
Since it states it has been upheld this is nothing but an extortion atemptattemptxicoMexicob]2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? [/b]
none. The only power or court that matters is one that has the ability to back it up with force.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
As long as they are in the vote buying business and the companies can rake in the bucks,never.
It will take an even biger biggerevent that came up from the south to even get their attention.
http:/http.lowwwolocr/frdrrdfrdipdf/TerrOrTerrOrgCrimedf
[pdfte] A Growing Threat in the Tri-BoTrir Area of South America. (Terrorist and Organized Crime Groups in the Tri-BoTrir Area (TBA) of South America. A Report Prepared under an InteraInteragencyment by the Federal Research Division, Library of Congress, July 2003.)[/quote]
QUOTE
Apparently, though, the Mexican government considers these requirements odious, as Arizona government no longer allows the use of the "Matricula Consular" a much fraudulently used document, as a valid form of identification. Further, Mexico seems to think that these requirements are a violation of "Human Rights", and is threatening to sue Arizona in US Federal courts, and even in International Court, if possible, to have Prop. 200 overturned. The story is here.
Then is it safe to assume that the Mexican government would have no problems with illegal immigrant Americans coming to Mexico during their next election cycle to try to effect change? Perhaps, this is a plan worth considering.
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?
If they feel they have been violated by that state I see no reason why they should not be able to sue. However, I think they will be extremely hard pressed to prove that such "violations" damage the Mexican government or citizens in anyway. Without damages there is no case. For there to be a successful civil suite there must be documental damages.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
Well considering a good portion of the world already seems to think we are "the devil" I doubt it will sway international public opinion much. As for it effecting the law in Arizona it is highly unlikely considering that we as a nation have not recognized the authority of the international court (last I knew). And things like this is the reason.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
When they stop seeing illegal immigrants as potential voters for them. When they stop seeing this issue as a way to garner the Hispanic votes for them. When the various lobbies that support illegal immigration stop giving them gobs of campaign contributions. When they start doing what is best for the country and not what is best for their re-election. In other words, when pigs fly (without the assistance of a catapult).
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country? No, all dealings with foreign governments are handled by the Federal government. As a result, a foreign gov't would have no standing to sue a state, or more accurately, it has no ABILITY to sue a state, just as an adult cannot sue a 5 year old for causing an accident. The Mexican gov't can sue the Federal gov't, but on what grounds?
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? Such a decision would destroy US-Mexican relations. The American public has become remarkably distrustful of international organizations, and for such an organization to void American democracy in action would also probably deliver a critical hit to any viability of "international courts" as far as Americans are concerned. Frankly, I'd love to see it happen, as I can easily imagine the trickle down.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries? Don't know. Methinks there may be more going on here than meets the eye, and I'm not talking about corporations lusting for cheap labor or the like. Let us agree that Mexico is a toilet, rife with corruption and squandered opportunity. Millions of illegals are learning that it doesn't have to be that way... what happens when they start demanding better from their homeland?
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? Such a decision would destroy US-Mexican relations. The American public has become remarkably distrustful of international organizations, and for such an organization to void American democracy in action would also probably deliver a critical hit to any viability of "international courts" as far as Americans are concerned. Frankly, I'd love to see it happen, as I can easily imagine the trickle down.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries? Don't know. Methinks there may be more going on here than meets the eye, and I'm not talking about corporations lusting for cheap labor or the like. Let us agree that Mexico is a toilet, rife with corruption and squandered opportunity. Millions of illegals are learning that it doesn't have to be that way... what happens when they start demanding better from their homeland?
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?
I find the concept hillarious. Hey, if Mexico wants to sue Arizona, shouldn't Mexico extradite Arizona out of the US? And what is the offense, that Arizona passed a set of laws to control illegal activity by Mexican citizens within Arizona's borders? Could Arizona counter sue Mexico for running a country with a bad economy, pushing the cost of labor down and stealing US jobs?
Maybe that last one is for Michigan to pursuit.
Finally, the US should sue Mexico for all the money we spend on these illegals. We'll take it in oil. Oh wait, maybe we already do.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
Just an airing of complaints. I don't think the Arizona legislature is going to care what Mexico wants, not without some sweet deal like oil for educating Mexican illegals. It's not unfair to disenfranchise illegal immigrants.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
I am sure there are sweet deals between the US and Mexico that we don't know about. I am also sure that business in the US likes hiring illegals to "do the work that US citizens don't want to do," like construction labor, hotel/restaurant labor, and picking crops. Sorry, if a citizen is out of work, the citizen should get first dibs on employment over an illegal immigrant.
Cheap labor, that's the driving force here from business. Oil has something to do with this as well, as we get a pretty good share of our supply from Mexico.
3.0 billion barrels/day 2002
I find the concept hillarious. Hey, if Mexico wants to sue Arizona, shouldn't Mexico extradite Arizona out of the US? And what is the offense, that Arizona passed a set of laws to control illegal activity by Mexican citizens within Arizona's borders? Could Arizona counter sue Mexico for running a country with a bad economy, pushing the cost of labor down and stealing US jobs?
Maybe that last one is for Michigan to pursuit.
Finally, the US should sue Mexico for all the money we spend on these illegals. We'll take it in oil. Oh wait, maybe we already do.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have?
Just an airing of complaints. I don't think the Arizona legislature is going to care what Mexico wants, not without some sweet deal like oil for educating Mexican illegals. It's not unfair to disenfranchise illegal immigrants.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries?
I am sure there are sweet deals between the US and Mexico that we don't know about. I am also sure that business in the US likes hiring illegals to "do the work that US citizens don't want to do," like construction labor, hotel/restaurant labor, and picking crops. Sorry, if a citizen is out of work, the citizen should get first dibs on employment over an illegal immigrant.
Cheap labor, that's the driving force here from business. Oil has something to do with this as well, as we get a pretty good share of our supply from Mexico.
3.0 billion barrels/day 2002
1. Should foreign countries be able to sue individual states in Federal Court, who have created laws that pass constitutional muster in our country?What for? States do not and can not make treaties, or foreign policy. As part of the United States, they can not be sued for anything by any foreign government. This is absolutely nuts.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? Hopefully convince the federal government that we need less Mexicans in America and more of them in Mexico.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries? When Americans convince the politicians that this is a serious problem and the foreigners are guests and not running the place.
I have never understood the attitude that a non-citizen has a 'right' to be in somebody elses country period. It makes no sense at all, but Mexico and other countries not only think that, but also think that they have rights to services in the countries which they entered in violation of the local laws. These people have committed a crime when they crossed the border without legal American documents, they have no rights here. If they don't like those rules then they can go home.
2. What effect would losing this case in an international court have? Hopefully convince the federal government that we need less Mexicans in America and more of them in Mexico.
3. When will the Federal government "get it", and start supporting our border states in efforts to stem the tide of illegal immigration, rather than siding with the governments of foreign countries? When Americans convince the politicians that this is a serious problem and the foreigners are guests and not running the place.
I have never understood the attitude that a non-citizen has a 'right' to be in somebody elses country period. It makes no sense at all, but Mexico and other countries not only think that, but also think that they have rights to services in the countries which they entered in violation of the local laws. These people have committed a crime when they crossed the border without legal American documents, they have no rights here. If they don't like those rules then they can go home.
Okay, I think the initial report was a little off.
As Loreng and others have pointed out, Mexico cannot sue Arizona.
What (some) members of the Mexican government have proposed is that they issue a complaint to the UN Court of Human Rights, on the grounds that Arizona's policies will promote racial discrimination - in that it will make life harder for legal Mexican immigrants - they will forever have to be carrying identification when legal immigrants / citizens will not have to.
Mexico does not promote or approve of illegal immigration to the USA. However, what the Mexican government does try to do is make life easier for Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise who live in the USA.
Anyway, I guess that makes question 2) moot.
Question 1) - Not under the current system of nations...countries deal with each other through negotiation. There would need to be an international court with jurisdiction over both Mexico and the US to allow one party to sue the other. No such court currently exists.
3) Bit of a loaded question! When will US citizens accept that illegal immigrants keep their economy afloat and that no government in its right mind would seriously try and stem immigration, beyond making 'token' gestures ?
As Loreng and others have pointed out, Mexico cannot sue Arizona.
What (some) members of the Mexican government have proposed is that they issue a complaint to the UN Court of Human Rights, on the grounds that Arizona's policies will promote racial discrimination - in that it will make life harder for legal Mexican immigrants - they will forever have to be carrying identification when legal immigrants / citizens will not have to.
Mexico does not promote or approve of illegal immigration to the USA. However, what the Mexican government does try to do is make life easier for Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise who live in the USA.
Anyway, I guess that makes question 2) moot.
Question 1) - Not under the current system of nations...countries deal with each other through negotiation. There would need to be an international court with jurisdiction over both Mexico and the US to allow one party to sue the other. No such court currently exists.
3) Bit of a loaded question! When will US citizens accept that illegal immigrants keep their economy afloat and that no government in its right mind would seriously try and stem immigration, beyond making 'token' gestures ?
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