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Vicideon
QUOTE
At Los Angeles International Airport two weeks ago, FBI agents arrested an Irish businessman they had spent a week tailing all over California's Silicon Valley, from the offices of two electronics manufacturers in Sunnyvale to a hotel in Mountain View and down a quiet cul-de-sac to a suburban house in San Jose. The technology exporter, according to court papers, had purchased sophisticated computer components in the U.S. to send to Russia through Ireland. He now stands to be charged in mid-February with "unlawful export of 'defense articles.'" U.S. officials point to this little-noticed case as one manifestation of a troubling reality: although the cold war is long over, Russia is fielding an army of spooks in the U.S. that is at least equal in number to the one deployed by the old, much larger Soviet Union.

Russia runs more than 100 known spies under official cover in the U.S., senior U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement officials say. And those are just the more easily spotted spies working under the classic guise of diplomat. An unknown number of so-called nocs—who work under nonofficial cover as businessmen and -women, journalists or academics—undoubtedly expand the Russian spy force. "They're baaaaack," says a former senior U.S. intelligence official who worked against Moscow during the cold war. "They're busy as hell, but I don't think we've really got what it is that they're doing." The number of Russian spies in the U.S. is especially surprising, given that it was less than four years ago that the Bush Administration expelled 50 of them in retaliation for the humiliating discovery that FBI counterintelligence agent Robert Hanssen had been spying for Russia for 21 years.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1022559,00.html

So just what type of relationship DO we have with the former soviets? Are they still enemies because they spy?

If so then israel should be classified as the same because they spy on us as well?


Just how friendly should we be with a "former" enemy that still seems so hostile?
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VDemosthenes
To in actuality be hostile you must be taking an offensive posture or taking provisions to prepare for a first strike. Statements that Russia is anywhere near hostile are farfetched and at this point clearly representing no truth or reasonable thinking. All contacts that the United States has made with foreign countries are precious no matter what the nation we are obligated to tolerate them under the basis that we are allays and companions in our global village. I am a strict believer in the common good, the reasonable philosophy that allows all people decency and goodness before making a sound judgement.
The fact that Israel, Russia, or even Britian are "spying" on us is of little consequence and are claims that action cannot be taken upon. If any person should find the workings of daily life so grand and secretive enough to hide I challenge them now to barricade themselves in their home, for the risks we take as being American's are worth any report that reaches foreign offices. Should our relations be different with any nation known to be "spying" on America? I do not believe so. It seems far too private, we are a nation that rules the media. If America has stage fright then it is not worthy trying to bring about good in this world if citizens find the workings of daily life uncomfortable.
All these "spies" do, or attempt to do, is gather the functions and morale of the people whom which live in our nation. My evidence is not documented and does not need to be for people to understand that it is truth. If many of the labeled "spies" work as journalists, businessmen, or other diplomatic occupations they have little access to the deep and innermost workings of our government or it's troop deployments. For paranoia to be such a driving force in this world I have found of late for there to be an excess. To let relations be damaged with Russia for having officials of the government in our country is outrageous. If anyone believes America to be so trusting as to not have it's own "spy" force in Russia or other countries I ask them now to speak out and tell me wrong.
How logical does it seem for America not to have it's own secret army of "spies" or "information gatherers?" If other nations do whose idea do you believe it was?
To let paranoia rule us to the point of finding wolves among the sheep I think that this country shall be a country of xenophobes within the next ten years. To classify Russia and Israel as enemies would be too damaging to not only our friendships but also our validity as an accepting nation. We live in a diverse land, but why does our toleration and acceptance stop at the ocean's borders? We cannot move to allow extremist factions who believe that the Cold War never ended to change the daily outlook of all. We must trust our friends in whom we undoubtedly have our own "spies." Is this an issue in other nations? Likely not. Do we have anything to hide? People would make it seem as such would they not?
Vicideon
QUOTE(VDemosthenes @ Jan 31 2005, 07:18 PM)
To in actuality be hostile you must be taking an offensive posture or taking provisions to prepare for a first strike. Statements that Russia is anywhere near hostile are farfetched and at this point clearly representing no truth or reasonable thinking.
Are not ICBM's still aimed at us and are they not still developing weapons that are offensive? They do still have a weapons program.Seems the only thing different between now and before the fall of the wall is the rhetoric. The rest has changed little.

QUOTE
All contacts that the United States has made with foreign countries are precious no matter what the nation we are obligated to tolerate them under the basis that we are allays and companions in our global village. I am a strict believer in the common good, the reasonable philosophy that allows all people decency and goodness before making a sound judgement.
The fact that Israel, Russia, or even Britian are "spying" on us is of little consequence and are claims that action cannot be taken upon. If any person should find the workings of daily life so grand and secretive enough to hide I challenge them now to barricade themselves in their home, for the risks we take as being American's are worth any report that reaches foreign offices. Should our relations be different with any nation known to be "spying" on America? I do not believe so. It seems far too private, we are a nation that rules the media. If America has stage fright then it is not worthy trying to bring about good in this world if citizens find the workings of daily life uncomfortable.
All these "spies" do, or attempt to do, is gather the functions and morale of the people whom which live in our nation. My evidence is not documented and does not need to be for people to understand that it is truth. If many of the labeled "spies" work as journalists, businessmen, or other diplomatic occupations they have little access to the deep and innermost workings of our government or it's troop deployments. For paranoia to be such a driving force in this world I have found of late for there to be an excess. To let relations be damaged with Russia for having officials of the government in our country is outrageous. If anyone believes America to be so trusting as to not have it's own "spy" force in Russia or other countries I ask them now to speak out and tell me wrong.
How logical does it seem for America not to have it's own secret army of "spies" or "information gatherers?" If other nations do whose idea do you believe it was?
To let paranoia rule us to the point of finding wolves among the sheep I think that this country shall be a country of xenophobes within the next ten years. To classify Russia and Israel as enemies would be too damaging to not only our friendships but also our validity as an accepting nation. We live in a diverse land, but why does our toleration and acceptance stop at the ocean's borders? We cannot move to allow extremist factions who believe that the Cold War never ended to change the daily outlook of all. We must trust our friends in whom we undoubtedly have our own "spies." Is this an issue in other nations? Likely not. Do we have anything to hide? People would make it seem as such would they not?
*

They were getting technology illegally. This has nothing to do with learning about us personally at all. Our contact is not worth our lives and freedoms no mater hoe naturally decent one thinks the world may be. Its history has proven otherwise.

Remember the Japanese made no clear threat until Pearl harbor was surprised. Now if you say they stated demands and warning then the same can be said for Russia who has clearly warned us to stay out of her former republics and they clearly state our new influence is a threat to them.

One does not have to accept a serpent into their home to claim kindness to animal.
VDemosthenes
How narrow-minded he who speaks in response of that which he has no experience. If naive enough to believe that we ourselves do not have missiles breathing down the neck of the Kremlin then the question was not directed toward you or anyone who believes that. We have 2,600 more nuclear devices resting soundly in facilities around the globe, do you not feel that the government has plans to attack each nation should trouble arouse and the panic button needs pressing?
We most likely have battle plans and contingencies drawn for our allies more pronounced than our enemies. Why? We know not only our allies secrets to battle, but we also know the arsenal and the military might without having to "spy" on them. Friendship on an international scale is the same as two girls playing telephone at a sleep over. Secrets are passed, information is gathered by both nation's by studying the very movements of the other. I feel more secure knowing that ICBM's are pointing at the heart of the United States, for I know with the events that transpired after September the eleventh that America would likely not be caught off guard again, even if it means policing our friends.
For each warhead they have pointing at America, at some point in the world, America most believably has ten pointing at Russia. If anyone can possibly have faith enough in our government to believe that we ourselves have not been using overseas factories to develop "illegal" substances or items, I pity them. For I know the flaws in my government, but I also know the roots by which they planted freedom and the life it reaped. Our government is one of the most questionable on this earth because we have broken several treaties citing the advancement of industry and technology during this period. To comment to your Peral Harbor retort I would pose you with another question. Had we had any diplomatic relations with Japan that made the people believe we were in any way at peace with them; and had we had any signs of warning pointing to the contrary? We are a nation concerned with peace and the lives of the people, we do not live expecting an attack, but when one occurs extremists are always in favor of putting a little glass bubble over America. People must try to accept people at face value and not see the misdeeds until the board is set to make an advancement on reports the attack is eminent. Japan rendered no warning to an attack, so we took them as neutral; granted our mistake. America cannot watch the world as you seem to have built as a belief in your pez dispenser of general knowledge.
Julian

So just what type of relationship DO we have with the former soviets? Are they still enemies because they spy?
If so then israel should be classified as the same because they spy on us as well?
*



We have a mature relationship with the "former soviets" (or "Russians", as they are called by almost everyone these days; I don't remember the Soviets ever being called "former Russians".) As you point out, the Israelis (a close American ally) have spies in the USA.

Just how friendly should we be with a "former" enemy that still seems so hostile?
Since when is spying in itself evidence of hostility?
Surely it depends what information is being gathered, and to what purpose?

Think of it this way. Today's America is the world's only superpower - politically, economically, militarily, and (to a lesser extent) technologically.

It is just plain prudent for lesser countries to do everything they can to find out what America really thinks about issues that are dear to their own hearts, and international relations being what they are, there is no guarantee that straightforwardly asking the question will get a truthful or complete answer.

And these modern Russian spies seem to be (on the strength of this information) less interested in infiltrating and influencing policy-making, than in obtaining information on technology.

America has (quite recently) demonstrated that it no longer sets much store in the nuclear MAD doctrine - so is setting up a missile shield that will cover some of its closest allies but notably will not cover Russia. It pumps billions of dollars on defence technology research - one of the few areas of tax expenditure nobody in America seems to question, and not all of this defence technology is very defensive.

America has also (quite recently) demonstrated that it is more than prepared to attack a foreign country with a vastly inferior military that has not first attacked America, for reasons that much of the world (Russia included) did not agree with or even, perhaps, understand.

So, put yourself in their shoes. A superpower holds all the aces over you in money and tehcnical toys; sets up a missile sheild in such a way that the unspoken assumption is that you remain some kind of threat to them, or at least that you are not regarded as unthreatening; and demonstrates that it is prepared to act in ways you find both disagreeable and unpredictable. Moreover, on current form, it is prepared to act militarily against nations where there is a big disparity between American overall military capability and the other party's defensive and retaliatory capabilities - North Korea had nukes and did not get attacked, while IRaq didn't and did. A simple calculation, no matter how misguided it might be.

In this situation, faced by modern America, would Russia not be completely insane and careless of its national interest if it didn't put a big effort into spying on America and trying to steal it's technology?

Disregarding all of that, I can't help but think that it is naive in the utmost to believe that spying should only take place on declared enemies in wartime. Does anyone who holds this view imagine that America withdrew all their spies from Russia the minute they held democratic elections? Come on this is the nuts and bolts of statecraft!

Spying is only intelligence gathering, and someone who has no intelligence is - well - stupid.
loreng59
So just what type of relationship DO we have with the former soviets? Are they still enemies because they spy?Pretty much the same as we have had. The Russians are not our friends or allies. We do not have the same ideas or goals and we have technology and information they want. Just as we still spy on the Russians, they spy on us.

If so then israel should be classified as the same because they spy on us as well?The US spies on everybody, especially Israel. Last month Israel chased an American submarine from their territorial waters, what was it doing there? My guess the same thing they did in the Cold War, tapping into underwater telephone cables.

The United States spies on France and England as well as everybody else. So every country is now the 'enemy' not hardly. We must realize that to keep in the loop so to speak the US is running intelligence operations in the US and every other country in the world and most of the world is doing the same to us.

Just how friendly should we be with a "former" enemy that still seems so hostile?I think that we should have a healthy regard for the former Soviet Union. But just because the Cold War is over there is no reason to regard them as friends, we still have differences of opinions. Besides which there is no reason to assume that Putin will remain the President. Somebody else will take over and may even decide to resume the Cold War someday.
j10pilot
QUOTE(Vicideon @ Feb 1 2005, 07:28 AM)
So just what type of relationship DO we have with the former soviets? Are they still enemies because they spy?

If so then israel should be classified as the same because they spy on us as well?


Just how friendly should we be with a "former" enemy that still seems so hostile?


1. Neither friends nor enemies, the same one we have with you mrsparkle.gif

2. I honestly had a hard time understanding why America supposes Israel so much, but hey that's not my business. And no, neither Israel spying on America nor vice versa would change the relationship significantly.

3. There's a difference between wanting more about you and wanting to kill you mrsparkle.gif

Well, the world is not black and white, and if anyone think it is, then their world view is, to quote former Chinese president Jiang Zemin, *with a Chinese accent* "too simple, sometimes naive." mrsparkle.gif
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