I found the entire speech captivating! But I found the emphasis of placing the first lady in charge of a national issue of respect for women and the de-glorification of gang lawlessness in America the most significant portion of the speech.

Perhaps I’m partial to rule of law, but I think we cannot allow lawlessness to go unchecked in America and expect otherwise elsewhere.

TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Is the first lady in a position to influence community behavior where gang violence exists?

Is gang culture too entrenched to consider a cure will occur in less than decades?

Sarge,

First, I also thought this stood out...I'm not sure a similar effort has been undertaken before. Second, I would like to say that this is clearly something that should get bi-partisan support...if anything, such a program is more in line (IMHO) with Democratic policy than it is with Republican. So, hopefully, it can be debated both here and in the community at large without resorting to demagougery.

Is the first lady in a position to influence community behavior where gang violence exists?

I haven't seen any details of the program, but, unfortunately, my first thought would be that no, she doesn't. I'm not really seeing how she has any 'street cred'. But, the program sounded like it was going to recruit people as role models...so I would imagine most of them would be a better fit. However, I don't really think its targeted at gangs or gang members to begin with...its targeted at those who might be considering it. This is a much broader group, and the very group where role models to follow might indeed be very effective.


Is gang culture too entrenched to consider a cure will occur in less than decades?

Cure? Sure....10 years from now, we'll almost certainly still have gangs. The question is...will the problem be getting better, or worse. If gang violence is reduced at all with this program, it is a success...and I can see that happening quite easily.

Is the first lady in a position to influence community behavior where gang violence exists?

Gang violence should be a concern for everyone. I remember another First Lady advising kids to "Just Say No" to drugs. In the long run that didn't work out too well. I don't see how Laura Bush can have much impact on gang violence.

Hey Hobbes

I had to go back and see exactly was said and this is what I found:
The entire State of the Union speech may be found at http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/february/0...otu_text1.shtml

(key text of last paragraph page 5, recommend you read the whole paragraph)
“Taking on gang life will be one part of a broader outreach to at-risk youth, which involves parents and pastors, coaches and community leaders, in programs ranging from literacy to sports. And I am proud that the leader of this nationwide effort will be our First Lady, Laura Bush.”

Other first ladies have had impact on society in the past and in the above framework are a lot of possibilities. Other issues from prison system to right to bear arms enter into gang violence. Then there is the popularity of the youth market with video games like San Andreas and music that makes it an acceptable lifestyle. When a rapper breaks down the basics of sending lead down range and beating his pregnant girlfriend or wife in the stomach to abort a child and that stuff sells a culture change is in desperate need (IMHO). This same popularity is spreading to Europe and I read some statistics from England related to the same social problems and maybe some of the European members will chime in and advise what the governments are doing there to stem this cancer.

Hey BoF

A lot of the stuff is just related to kids and changing a mindset. My boys like the games and the rap I find so disgusting.

Here we have some projects on the outskirts of San Juan where the drug gangs exchange pistol and rifle fire across the interstate between the two projects. The governor has to send the National Guard in every couple years so the police can gain access. Something has to be done and we have to stop making gang life desirable.

Kids, like cats, seem to have minds of their own. Changing mindsets is probably easier said than done. Sending in the National Guard every couple of years doesn't "cure" anything, it only slows it down temporarily.

This is not something I take lightly. About fifteen years ago, I taught at the largest high school in Fort Worth. Two female students, one of whom I knew slightly from the nearby yogurt shop got involved with some older gang members (men) who were into selling drugs. The one at the yogurt shop and her friend were apparently selling more than frozen desserts. They both ended up murdered.

I don't exactly agree with your approach of making gang life less desirable--that's punitive, but rather trying to create community programs that will give life more meaning than gangs.

BoF

You really got my attention, I had the idea you were a former prison management person when I just glanced at your profile, and I guess the hat threw me. Now, I took another look and realize you are an educator. Ah, I knew you were intelligent from the way you communicate but I was thinking prison management.

Now I’m really intrigued by your statement above. “that’s punitive”! I’m a punitive kind of guy and would support prison reform too. I think the guy(s) who caused the death of the yogurt shop girl should not be rehabilitated; rather I think a little punishment would be more in line. Please say you agree! Let’s look at the facts, without the goon the girl would have been selling boring yogurt and alive, with the guy she is dead. You say create community programs that are more attractive than his lifestyle. What community program will show competition with diamonds, a new BMW and the best clothes?

I don’t believe in rehabilitation and blame it for crime America experiences today. Punishment for being a citizen that knowingly takes advantage of freedom deserves punishment! Punishment shouldn’t cost a penny to any taxpayer and should be administered after a very fair trial. Minor offenses should be community service and then punishment held as “do it again and see what happens”.

To take the glory out of the diamonds, a new BMW and the best clothes put the guy in with others of his kind without guards in a commune set up like fellow citizens chose to live, the Pennsylvania Dutch Quakers. Set up a corral in West Texas with pigs, cows and chickens and put all the A-social people there for a period of time the court determines. Let them be Quakers or die, let the strong among them overwhelm the weak without guards, the work for food remains there if they are to eat. Send them in and take them out naked after a cavity search so as not to allow them to have access to their cherished drugs. Shoot to kill anyone that climbs out of the corral. Is that the kind of prison reform you had in mind too? And, more importantly would young people celebrate such lifestyle or reject it for boring yogurt?

What percentage of black males are already in the "system" today? How is anything he said going to influence or curb gang violence in any way? Why in the world would ANY impoverished black kid listen to a privilaged white wife of a guy that is pretty much universally reviled and held with contempt by everyone in thier circle of influence?

I mean really, do you guys really think GW will have any kind of influence whatsoever among folks that might be headed towards gang life? Much less his Waspy affluent wife of privelage> I mean, c'mon LOL

The only thing GW has at his disposal that would be short term solution would be martial law.

What, do you want the guy that brought you NCLB (that was based on a lie, and very unsucceful ) , Medicaid drug act (whose passage was based on lies, and of dubious, if any, success) trying to actually find an answer to an entrenched issue like this?

It was rancid hot air made to have his constituents say "what a man" while they fawn over his greatness- and that is the total limit of that issue in the SOTU

Ol Sarge,

You have jumped contexts on me. I was debating your words about making gang membership unattractive by sending in the National Guard every couple of years, not about whether someone convicted of in a court of law should be punished for murder. In the first case it's summary action in the second its lawful imposed consequences of a crime applied by the courts. In the first case I think it better to try to create programs that give kids something constructive to do, as an alternative to joining gangs. Sending in the National Guard is likely to produce results like those at Kent State.

The death of the two girls cast a cloud over the campus. They, however, were not completely without culpability. They had been selling dope for the two gang members. As sometimes happens things went wrong and they got killed execution style over it. That certainly doesn't make it any prettier, but neither were they completely innocent. As best I can remember the two guys were convicted of murder and may have been sentenced to death. Edited to add. I checked both current death row inmates and inmates who have been executed from Tarrant County and found no record of anyone being there for those crimes. I remember two suspects being arrested, but don't remember a trial. The same two were accused of holding up a supemarket and harassing customers with a shotgun. It is possible that they entered a plea rather than face trial. I don't remember, but I think I can call around and maybe find out from some other people who taught at the school at the time.

Please explain what you mean by the word "goon." In the South that is a racial epithet.

BTW: Murder didn't seem to bother you all that much when it was a "macho" soldier killing a gay commander.

In the case here the NG was sent in because the gangs wouldn’t let police in the projects. There were innocent people in the projects with gunshot wounds and the gangs pinned down ambulance and police with suppressive fire. It is a fact the NG doesn’t cure anything. To solve a drug – gang problem you have to recognize the variables and take action on the variables that least affect the innocent law abiding public.

Police cannot be reactionary anymore than the NG to cause cure. However, the government can address the problem systematically. 1- Why do people buy illegal drugs? 2- How can the government discourage the violation of this vice with least impact on law-abiding citizens?

Solutions 1- Have the government distribute illegal drugs in the same manner as dealers that result in near death symptoms of the buyers; remove desire. Publicly punish those who became ill as a result of attempting to buy illegal drugs with public service. 2- Make the punishment for selling drugs so undesireable that no one would want to take the chance for the easy money. End of drug problem.

Goon: a thug hired to harm or intimidate opponents; a stupid oafish person. Nothing more or less intended, the gang guy on the street is working for a fat milk skin rich white, rich Hispanic, or a rich powerful black guy up the food chain and is just a tool.

You seem to have an opinion that I would support a soldier killing a gay commander and your opinion is incorrect. Go back to the thread and approach what I tried to communicate with this spirit in mind: I do not want openly gays placed in the military because they are not welcome there, should such a thing happen many macho types would depart causing a draft that would result in my children be drafted. The macho types would be conscripted and then would kill the gays anyway. If you read the news you know that hardly a year passes where a gay is discovered in the barracks and beat to death with a baseball bat or thrown down three flights of stairs to his death. I do not condone such violence and Barney Frank and I recognized this REALITY when the don’t ask - don’t tell policy was enacted.

IT would only take a couple of generals losing thier jobs and the whole military attitude would change over night Sarge and you know it. The violence is condoned by the higher ups and that is why it exists.

The question is though:

Is the first lady in a position to influence community behavior where gang violence exists?

If the first lady had any credibility outside her husbands constituency, perhaps, but, really, do you think she has any influence other than a parody of herself in those communities? Hillary or Bill would have some influence, but certainly not this regime LOL

Is gang culture too entrenched to consider a cure will occur in less than decades?

I deal with wanna-be gangsters and actual gangsters every day. Gang culture is entrenched in our culture for a few reason

1) rampant materialism of ALL strata of our society. Working hard for what you want has no value-simply having the thing is the issue.

2) All "legitimate" businesses in our society are viewed by young folks as equally corrupt and evil as any gang leader- and it is not far from the truth. The ruthlessness it takes to succeed in business today- well, the succesful criminal gang is modeled after corporate structures- coincidence ? To help this problem- we need to clean shop at the top first- you guy's watch the Dave Chappelle show? He did the best explanation of this in a skit that could ever be done by a debater- he switched places of the Enron exec and the crack dealer. They busted in the exec's house, shot his dog, beat him up, molested his wife and generally trampled his rights, gave him a public defender that only had about 15 minutes to deal with him- while the crack dealer made an appointment to see the DA about what kind of plea deal that would be acceptable to him etc.

3) rampant poverty and lack of general hope, and add low self worth to the equation. Winning the lotery and lifting themselves out of thier situations have about equal chances. The gang is the only way they have any chance of having the same things we all take for granted on this board.

You ever see a republican of any type EVER even doing the smallest things to help any of these items? Heck, they can't even admit the problem LOL


And Ol' Sarge- do you really believe your solutions to the "drug problem" would be solved by your ideas? Do you have any vices? Smoke cigarettes? Drink Beer? Drink coffee? All drugs! Depending on how they affect your life, they are either okay drugs or bad drugs. The only difference is somebody has arbitrarily with no common sense whatsoever made some illegal and some legal. There has to be a consistant and reasonable drug law in order for them to be enforceable. That doesn't exist at this time.

p.s. - who removed the "other" options- otherwise, the poll is seriously flawed.

We need a choice of "it is all just hot air, to bad we can't harness it"

Is the first lady in a position to influence community behavior where gang violence exists?

Is gang culture too entrenched to consider a cure will occur in less than decades?

There have been gangs as long as there have been different kinds of people. Early 20th century gangs didn’t have easy access to real weapons, and fights were usually fists, bats and chains, and occasionally knives. While murders occurred, there weren’t nearly as many. Gangs even had “codes of behavior”, something that’s hard to imagine in the days of random drive-by shootings. Racial tensions in the 60’s contributed a lot to the rise in gang violence, and the 70’s and 80’s brought with it drugs and easy access to weapons.

To me, eliminating the allure of drugs and guns is the key to curbing gang violence, followed closely by programs to make children feel worthwhile and that they have a future, no matter what circumstances they might grow up in. Discouraging young people from drugs and violence can’t be an easy task, and I’m afraid a white woman of privilege such as Laura Bush wouldn’t have a clue. Preaching at them is pointless. You have to be able to relate to kids in order to have enough credibility to get through to them. If angry, disenfranchised kids are going to learn from anyone, it will be the older, “reformed” gang members who have been incarcerated, who have been shot, shot at or have shot someone, who have been through the whole drug scene, and have had their lives ruined by the gang lifestyle…organizations such as the Alliance of Concerned Men (which is kind of a dumb name, but...). Personally, I think there is potential for Mrs. Bush to do more harm than good by peddling her and her husband's peculiar brand of "hope".

How about Al Gore or the Black Caucus do you think they also look out for blacks and minorities? The reason I’m a house husband is because they wouldn’t help when my black fellow employee from GA was told by a supervisor on the USCG base where we worked “I’ve been needing a (insert the “N” word) to put my feet on” when he reported for work the first day. I was a witness among 17 others and the only one to stick with him to the formal case at San Juan some two years later. The DOT lawyer tried to get me disqualified for my second letter to the Vice President Al Gore where I politely cursed him out for his lack of assistance. I didn’t give the CG a copy of letters I sent to the VP. The command twice falsely charged me, took away my freedom of speech, freedom of movement, refused my appeal and set conditions of employment that I must use direct route to and from my work, carry my own drinking water and toilet paper. Al wrote me two days before the trial advising me to get a good lawyer. I worked under those conditions for almost two months until the Army Chief of Staff contacted DOT and had my rights restored. While waiting for help my black friend wrote registered-certified letters to Jessie Jackson and every member of the Black Caucus with full details and begged for help explaining our congress representative was in the DOT’s pocket. Not one helped! The case is available under the freedom of information act and I’ll send you info by PM if you want or fax you a copy of Al’s letter to me. My friend lost the case and it is OK for a supervisor with some black blood in his body as a supervisor on a US government base to make that statement still today. The supervisor was shot dead two months later and another employee committed suicide when the CG did the same to him as they did to me. The commander was retired immediately, the XO sent to Alaska and the manager agent was promoted and transferred to Fl where later she cost the DOT over two million dollars on, you guessed it a race case she failed to act on. I quit because I feared for my family’s life and safety. You don’t endorse your guy on unknowns and I’ll do the same, because I think if Bush had been in office a like outcome could have occurred.



Yea, I watch Chappelle regularly and like his skits quite a lot for their reality. But the argument that blacks or Hispanics from underprivileged neighborhoods can’t succeed is poorly based. I came from a very poor state and a very poor family and never received one penny from the government and consider myself a productive citizen. My father earned $35 a week and a house to live in my early childhood and I learned responsibility from his insistence to be self-reliant and not be like (insert the N word), he was in the KKK. It is the liberal side of politics that keeps propping the blacks up with crutches and giving them excuses for doing so poorly. I’ve worked with thousands of great black soldiers and perform equally to any race. To be respected and accepted any man must be responsible and try within his abilities to do his best before laying down with dogs waiting for table scraps or becoming dependant on Robin Hood. There wouldn’t be a racial division if more those dependant on the government of all races try to carry their own weight.

I agree they, for the most part didn’t have a stubborn dad of Scottish decent guiding them to be responsible but, with all the crutches and, many more than they should been given more should have picked themselves up by the bootstraps and became successful by now than that have. Read this link subject Counterintuitive Behavior of Social Systems http://www.constitution.org/ps/cbss.htm and deny too much help can be worse than none at all.




I believe in rule of law and anything less is not acceptable and anarchy. Yes the actions would correct the drug problem but the gang problem, no. The crime would change to robbery and housebreaking for spending money. The key is to give hope.

Here we have two major parties that range far left to Kennedy to far right Joe Bidden. Job Corps are very busy in the hoods where little hope exists. Failures are treated harshly but they usually don’t go to jail, they work.

My brother-in-law got married young dropped out of school, two babies and then divorce. Then remarried and bam! Another baby followed by divorce. Child support on minimum wage took all of his money so he turned to drugs and on the second bust, about two years ago he was placed in a government construction company where he builds for the government and they take his pay and give it to his kids and provide him housing but no freedom, well I guess that is minimum security jail.



This is my second poll and I didn’t even know I needed a topic to debate. I’ll be sure to add other next poll I do.






That is what I was saying on another thread on the racial tensions were allowed to have air escape too early by the Supreme Court. Had the movement gained the momentum before the Brown case and been non-violent then much would friction would not have gone underground. Remember where the most problems were? Not in the south but in the north for the reasons mentioned on that thread.

People in gangs are normal as you state and is simply a state of anarchy or absence of rule of law, kind of like Iraq right now only they have access to larger weapons. When the draft was going on many were put into the military and functioned great as soldiers.

We are only talking about drugs and gangs and women abuse associated with them in this thread and I mentioned some possible cures for those ills. Regardless, as pointed out the hopelessness issue requires being addressed also or the method of income production will simply move to property verses a retail operation.

Desire is created by money and what it purchases and guns come with the territory and cannot be controlled in an open society. Here in PR I could get a brain surgeon license before I could legally buy a gun but I can pick up a gun in five minutes on the street. Guns are illegal here so to make them illegal is not the cure.

I’ll do some research and see if I can find out how the first lady plans to approach the mission and post what I find later. I agree from the living room of the Whitehouse she will have little or no impact.

Sorry to post back to back but I found more specifics on the First Lady's youth program and wanted to share it with you guys.

You may read details at link, which emphasis direct and indirect actions involving 150 million dollars directed primarily to young boys in high-risk areas for gang involvement.


Link:http://www.whitehouse.gov/firstlady/