I have two children, they are 1 1/2 and 6 months old respectively. Obviously I have some time before they start their formal education, though we read to them, play with puzzles, and interact with them as much as we can(hence why I'm not online as much anymore ) My wife had a great public school experience. She was a straight "A" student and says that she learned immensely at the school that she attended. She was a varsity athlete in two sports and earned a track scholarship to a local university. I attended a catholic high school where I earned mediocre marks. My "real" education did not occur until I attended college and then dived in with an intrinsic interest in education. I would study and even read extra books(gasp!) until the library closed. My own high school experience is somewhat jaded in that regard and I've become more intrigued with the possibility of homeschooling our children, at least through the elementary years. (K-6) I only feel that it is necessary for them in the elementary years. I do not have confidence in the elementary school where I live and feel that my wife and I(four college degrees between us and certified educators) could do a better job ourselves than the current staff that is in place where we live. Our reading and writing scores are absolutely horrible, and it's a silently uttered collective belief in the secondary that when it comes to our problems in reading and writing, that "........the problem is down there in the elementary."

Questions for debate:

1.)Ignoring "knee jerk" positions on this issue, what are the best reasons for or against homeschooling your child that pertain to education?

2.)If you have homeschooled your child-what is their take on their educaton?

3.)If you are pro-homeschooling, when if ever, did you put your children back into public schools? Do you believe that some public schools can do a good job?(as in the case of my wife)

as a parent, you must decide... the general direction in which you want to push your kids. leader/follower. both are just as important.

over the course of the time ur kids were welcomed into this world, i'm sure you and you and your wife have an idea of which position suits each one of ur children.

as far as your question on education... in regards to academic education and social education.. the source for both (two birds w/ one stone) is via public schooling. in return.. you'll have a more well balanced teenager in regards to both categories. the tradeoff... is most that go thru traditional schooling (society schooling), don't normally excel in any area, or a lot of areas... all skills fluxuate around the average percentile.

homeschoolin' isolates ur kids from social life, which breeds a social outcast for their latter life... dependin' on how they're homeschooled... they'll most likely excel in atleast a few precision skills.

"magnet" programs offered by many public schools, combine both.. for the usual best results in rewardin' you with a very well rounded/highly skilled (in many areas) individual by the time they're in their mid 20s.

1.)Ignoring "knee jerk" positions on this issue, what are the best reasons for or against homeschooling your child that pertain to education?

This statement may shock some people, but I feel that many of the problems facing public education can be overcome by parental involvement. Most of the problems with public schools in this country revolve around the fact that public schools are bureaucratic and they turn off and turn away parents who try to do more than the school administration will allow.

That said, the biggest drawback to home schooling, in my view, is the lack of social interaction. This, of course, can be overcome by joining book clubs at your local library, getting involved in sports at the local Y or local church and thru other interactions. They do, however, take a lot of work. This is especially true on the elementary level (where schools in the US do a pretty good job compared to schools elsewhere, it isn't until the high school level that US students drop off...).

Elementary school is just as much about developing a good sense of self-worth. That involves interacting with other children and being able to deal with problems.

3.)Do you believe that some public schools can do a good job?(as in the case of my wife)

Obviously, some (most even) public schools work. It is generally larger, more bureaucratic school system which do not work well for individual students.

My advice would be to send your kids to public school until grade 5 or 6 and then home school. Parental involvement at an early age is critical to getting kids to not only understand how important school is, but to get them to appreciate the learning process. Positive reinforcement is a must.

Name one CEO, Senator, or self made multi-millionaire that sends their child to a public school? Lets face it, if you send your child to a public school, you have already cut their chances from ever attending an IVY League school without being in the top 1% of a graduating class of 1000 from an creditable public school, which most are not.

Looking at the statistics provided by the EPAA in 1999, we can see that home school children achieve higher then their private school counterparts, and much higher then their public school counter parts, yet test scores do not speak to social skills. And if I may speak to social interactions, in order to home school your child, you must be attached either to a charter (public home school) or a private school. Both the charter and private schools conduct weekly field trips and offer biweekly class where the children are intermingled with other home schooled children. Plus the charter further requires your child to be physically active, which tacts on the community programs such as t-ball, basketball, soccer, and pop warner.

Yet what is their social interaction? According to statistics most home schooled children come from white, middle class, religious families. Is this a good representation of the population of the US? By no means. And unless your home schooled child pulls off a 1500 on his or her SAT, then they will not be admitted to the IVY League.

When it comes to private schools, those that are creditable are attached to IVY League colleges and pretty much guarantee your child admittance into the school, provided your child meets all minium requirements. The school then acts as an advocate for your child to the IVY League, that no public school could provided.

I agree with Amlord, the issue is always parent involvement. In public schools you have little to no parent involvement. In private schools, it is required of you to donate time and money to be involved with your child. In home schooling you are in a daily parental involvement.

With my children, my wife and I decided to enroll them in a charter school at home for K-2 grades. The reasons were to build a solid foundation of if they had questions they could come to us, that home is not a play zone but a place of education, and that we could offer them the one on one education need to develop a strong reading and math bases. These being the building blocks to the entire education system, we felt it necessary that it be done with two college educated people in a total educational engulfed environment only achieved by boarding schools and home schools. The charter school was beneficial due to the accreditations of a public schools, the requirement of yearly test matching the public schools, and the added bonus of free educational supplies and money to purchases such ongoing field trips as year passes to the San Diego Zoo and Sea World. This being done my children have been reading 2nd grade level books in kindergarten and facing the introduction of time tables in second grade. It worked for us.

Why stop at 2nd grade? In the eighth grade my wife and I both met our first friend that we cared for many years building a strong relationship. From the charter school the children will entire a private school that is attached to a high school which is attached to an IVY League school. This will give them the option to pick any school they wish and receive the grades to attend.

Not that I have kids or anything, but being relatively fresh out of school and with the ability to compare my situation to some of those who home school, my perspective on this is quite the reverse.

I agree that social interaction is a critical part of early learning, I don't think this is necessarily served best in a school setting (not that it is a bad place, just not the only place).

I do feel that after grade 5 or 6 homeschooling becomes less desirable. I especially do not feel that parents should leave a child's high school learning up to themselves.

I consider myself a pretty capable hand at high school math. Here in college I have taken up through Linear Algebra and Differential Equations. I tutor Calculus II and General Chemistry at the school 15 hours a week.

I could handle teaching a little pre-calculus, but I don't think it would be best.

Even a capable parent cannot make up for a good teaching staff.

1. A person not trained as a teacher tends to forget little details that are important for a beginning student until they are able to understand concepts more intuitively.

2. It is hard to find a parent which sufficient expertise in everything. Sure I could have an 10th-grader primed and ready for Calculus but Heaven help the kid if he/she wants to understand The Great Gatsby.

3.The experience of out-of-home schooling helps to prepare a child for college. I imagine that after homeschooling its an entirely different ball game.

If the choice is between a lousy school and homeschooling then by all means make that choice.

..but the ideal is a good school with a range of teachers to produce a balanced student.

(sorry the post doesn't answer any of the questions directly)

I was homeschooled. Specifically, I was unschooled. Unschooling is an odd branch of homeschooling which believes that kids will pick up what they need through natural curiosity and extremely gentle parental guidance. My "education" was whatever I got out of our weekly trips to various libraries. Most people (including myself until recently) would think it was a complete waste of time. Despite a completely lack of preparation, my standardized test scores somehow got me a admittance (as well as full tuition) to a state university. With absolutely no tools or experience, I jumped into institutional education.

Semesters have passed, and I'm doing well. Great grades, planning on going into an engineering field, and I still enjoy taking time to sit around and read just for the hell of it...

One day I'm going to have to make my own choice of whether or not to homeschool my kids. And I'm genuinely up in the air about it. What I do know, what I've gotten from my story, is that fear of what could go wrong with homeschooling shouldn't be a deterrence to trying it. You don't have to get a the best pre-post-secondary education to make it in the world. I was a worst-case scenario, and I managed to walk away better than many of the people I might have gone to school with. The decision should be based on what your kids can get out of home schooling, not what they could lose from doing it.

Edit: And the whole "anti-social homeschooler" thing is nonsense. Getting them into sports or something at a young age causes the whole issue to work itself out.

It has been mentioned earlier that academically homeschooling exceeds private schooling, and private schooling exceeds public schooling. I completely agree with this.

As far as the social part of it, home-schooled children are not disadvantaged. Check out this article for just one example: http://www.athomeinamerica.com/Article_4YearStudy.mv. And it makes sense logically. If you want your children to be socially adept, then their role models should not be other children, who likely learn a great portion of their own social skills from TV. Have their role models be well-adjusted adults, and they will act like well-adjusted adults.

One thing that turns me off about public schools is that academics is only part of what they are taught. It is not politically correct to disparage any lifestyle or belief, and public schools of necessity must adhere to that rule. If I am teaching my kids, though, I am at complete liberty to pass on to them my foundation of right and wrong.

One of the pastors in my area, who appears as a guest regularly on a radio program I listen to, has spoken highly of his experiences home schooling his children. He only did so through the second grade, but all three of his children went on to excel academically, to be well-adjusted functional adults, and to be active in their church and community. They were not disadvantaged socially at all, and their early years of home schooling gave them the moral strength needed to weather the outright degeneracy found in many of their later peers.

One idea I've had for homeschooling. My wife and I aren't confident in our ability to keep the program going. We are considering forming a homeschooling coalition, though, with our close friends and neighbors. Just maybe 4-6 families who share common religious and political ideals, each directly teaching our own and each others' children. I have no idea how well it would work. I'm sure the NEA would have a fit, though, and not because we might fail to meet standards of excellence.

I would be extremely wary of that as a rule. I fail to see how a homeschooling program can replace an able teaching staff. It just wouldn't make any sense.

I appreciate the importance of parental involvement, but parents can only teach their children so much. It is also important to appreciate the value of a well-trained educator.

In order to give a child the best shot at education, don't try the do-it-yourself approach.
You won't find to many home owners capable at plumbing, electric repair, roofing and automotive care.

Why pretend as though one person teaching math, history, social studies, science, art, literature and foreign language is any different?

To say nothing of the resources available to a well-funded school. Most parents can't afford to provide the sort of opportunities that I received in school for instance.

Schools tend to get better software deals.

Very true. The study I sited early only shows higher test scores, this does not show higher knowledge or higher ability to obtain knowledge, or a higher ability to retain knowledge. It only shows a higher ability to take a test.

I will agree that mothers or fathers who wish to home school should want to educate themselves on child development. However, lets say the mother has a master's in education. The father his degree in construction management, could they "do-it-themselves?" Obviously since they took their time in school to study such abilities. If you plan to take on the job of home schooling, you will need the proper training in order to provided exceptional service to your child. Someone with no education in automotive repair maybe a good mechanic by simple 'tinkering around'; able to make the car run and past a 'test' but they will not provided exceptional services.

Is this not what a teacher pre middle/jr. high does? Attempts to teach all subjects to a group of 30. I mean in home schooling you are attempting to teach the same to a class of 1 maybe 2 (as shown by the statistics).

Yes well funded schools have great resources, however a charter home school (public home school) provides the same amount of opportunities. Secondly if the parent becomes apart of any home school group that provides a main address and registers with the state (per CA regulations), that parent will be listed as a teacher and will receive said software at the same said discounted prices. It is all about educating yourself to doing your job to best of your ability.

Anyone who jumps into any situation blind will always fall flat on their face. Knowing the three factors that provided a great educational (learning environment (home and school), well funded, and the right tools at the right age) then any child can succeed to a level. As I said before, without the right credits from the right school, you will not go everywhere you want.

My 11 year old daughter is in public school. However, I may homeschool her once she is in junior high or high school. The issue is not that I think I can do it better or that the public schools don't have the resources to educate the kids. My issue is that once the kids hit that age, the school essentially loses control. Too many kids get messed up from peer pressure and everything else.

These days there are too many kids with both parents working. There is too much unsupervised time. Even though I may be there when my daughter is home from school, that doesn't mean her friends parents are supervising them. With all of the terrible influences in schools today I completely understand why parents pull their kids out. The schools are a mess and homeschooling which is growing exponentially is responding to this.

Would it not be easier to force your daughter to return home from school before she goes to her friend's house, then to remove her from her friends? I mean the goals in child rearing is not to prevent them from being in harms way, but to teach them what to do and how to defend themselves from harm. To teach your daughter that the lack of supervision provided by her friend's parents in inappropriate and the only way to defend against it is not to go. Given children the tools to make rational independent decisions on right and wrong is far more important then education.

yehoshua,

I think you are right. It's been said that children should be given both roots and wings. Roots refers to values, while wings means giving the child some room to explore and learn things from themselves. Cutting kids off from their friends, smothering them with too much supervision is no better parenting than just ignoring kids and letting them raise themselves. A balanced approach is what's needed.

I think the balanced approach is better achieved when kids attend either public or private schools. As I look back, I'm glad my parents didn't hover over me 24/7.

My comment didn't really accurately convey the problem. It is not so much that I am worried that she will be over friends homes where there is no supervision. Rather, I am worried about the type of influence this type of kid has on the school population as a whole. Teenagers naturally look to their peers and identify. It is natural because they are growing up and it is their way of taking steps toward independence. The problem is that the student population as a whole is into things that are very bad. I graduated from high school 25 years ago and I was no angel but I am SHOCKED at how different things are. It has gone way too far.

The things that my sitter tells me about what is going on is BEYOND BELIEF. I don't want my daughter exposed to this EN MASSE. Personally, I have resolved that as long as I see her as hanging out with good kids, good grades etc. I will let her stay-- but the minute I see anything else, I will pull her out and home school her.

Yep the rumors have been flying in schools for years; everyone is having sex, drinking alcohol, and doing drugs. Yet as statistic show, it is more like a third of the students in high school. The real worry is not high school but post high school where 75% of people between the ages of 18 to 25 try drugs or sex. This doesn't change the basic principals we work towards as parents; to teach our children right from wrong. If you raised a strong daughter, she has picked good friends, doesn't fall victim to peer pressure and knows right from wrong. Peer Pressure is there in preschool, its just how your child handles it.

That is the key, and i don't think any good parent would not do that. The minute the child slips into peer pressure, you have lost your grip and either to tighten your grip recognizing that your child is not strong enough to handle peer pressure.

The plan of attack (and I say it is plan) if my children ever fall victim to the wrong crowd not really to home school the child, but to remove everything the child ever cared. Car > gone, type of clothes > gone, weekends at friends > gone. And then they earn things back, its a trust issue. The problems with today's world which to me is the downfall of home schooling is parents that want to be their childs friend. They are the parents not the friends, two total different relationships and should be honored and treated as such.

At the same time, you have to be aware that the ability to make rational independent decisions comes with maturity. Young children have very limited abilities, and older children still have limits. Even in our early twenties we haven't completely mastered decision-making.

So while I agree that it is important to let your children learn the danger of, say, falling out of a tree, I don't think you should let them learn the danger of trying to pet a crocodile.

Some middle schools. The one I went to had two main teachers, wih others for Spanish, Art, music etc. I could see how an educated parent could manage (I don't think they could do quite as well).

..but when it comes to a high school education it's no contest.



Jeepers! There are people with his much time on their hands?

I have my doubts as to whether the vast majority of parents could afford such a thing, though it does seem to have its advantages.

This still doesn't make up for the enormous gap in teaching capabilities between 1 or two parents and a good teaching staff.

You left one out. The quality of the teachers can make an enormous difference. It certainly did for me and I watch it here at college every day.

Homeschooling is just at an unavoidable disadvantage.

[quote=turnea,Feb 17 2005, 03:12 PM]I could see how an educated parent could manage (I don't think they could do quite as well).[/QUOTE]Besides the conflict of parent/teacher vs child/student, what other limitations are there for a home schooling parent?

[quote=turnea,Feb 17 2005, 03:12 PM]..but when it comes to a high school education it's no contest.[quote]This is very true. High school is a stepping stone to college for some. For others, the educational growth period during high school becomes slower and drawn out. So let me throw out another possibility for our home schooled children that will apply for high school and might adress the other issues you bring to the table.

During high school most public college and community colleges offer classes for high school students. What if the child were to be enrolled into these classes while still receiving instructions in school from their parent?

[quote=turnea,Feb 17 2005, 03:12 PM]Jeepers! There are people with his much time on their hands? [/quote]If you are dedicated to your job of home schooling, you would have figured this out. Plus charter schools to assign assistants to help you (1 for every 20 students), who are not only licensed educators but have in the past home schooled their children. With a little time and an internet connection, you can find cheap deals.

[quote=turnea,Feb 17 2005, 03:12 PM]You left one out. The quality of the teachers can make an enormous difference.[/quote] That is the part about educational environment. The teacher provided the environment. The unfortunate party as we have seen with public education, is that you can't take the teacher and the classroom home with you when you start your homework. Nor can you take the teacher to the next level of education. And come on teachers are a business and people to. In school the 1st grade teachers talk to first grade teachers, the second talk to second, etc...to high school where the english talk to english, math to math, etc. again. There is not that great community of 50 plus teachers ranging from kindergarten to 12 that are watching you and helping you through school. And some teachers hate others and then will tell you everything opposite. In fact whenever there is a problem with the student and the teacher, it is the parents job to draw the attention to it, not another teacher or the principal.

Schools are assembly lines passing defects along, it is the job of the parent to be the eyes of quality assurances.

If these courses are well taught, and the parent enrolls the student in all of the courses where they lack teaching expertise I see how it could be a match. Then, of course, I suspect the student will spend precious little time at home.

It is, of course, much simpler just to find a good high school.


Heh, define "cheap"...

Running a large homeschool with capable assistance is not very common even among those who do homeschool. I suppose it could be as good as a well-staffed high school but it's a real stretch.

I, predictably, went to a good high school

..at this school I had opportunities that I can be sure were offered to precious few homeschooled students. I literally earned more college credit than I know what to do with.


I think you missed my point. Good teachers don't merely provide a learning environment. The number one benefit of a good teacher is the quality of instruction.
An excellent teacher knows what to teach how and when.

A teacher that can give a clear, focused, informative lecture and come up with pertinent examples, individual help and an organized assessment scheme that watches a students progress in detail is what homeschools will find very difficult to come by for all the course where it is necessary.



1. There is interaction among teachers, some (most) good and some bad.

...but that description is a little funny

"And some teachers hate others and then will tell you everything opposite."

Have you every had such a thing happen to you? If so parental involvement should make sure that teacher is looking for another line of work. Personally, I've never heard of such a thing.

Again, parents are (by and large) not teachers. Teaching is a delicate skill that most people simply cannot perform well. Combine that with the fact that accumulating the expertise to teach one subject (particularly at high school level) just about counts out the idea that you will be able to teach another....

My history teachers were great, but I saw no indication that any of them could stand in and teach Calculus....

and I think it requires a special sort of madness (a good sort mind you) to teach literature.