You're right Nighttimer, African-Americans don't have equal access to education in America. In fact, most Universities will admit them with lower test scores, poorer grades, less extra-curricular activity... doesn't seem equal at all if you ask me. (Scholarships are given based simply on minority status, etc.)

No children are born in the US at the same point. This, however, has nothing to do with the color of their skin. Race has no bearing on scholastic success, unless of course their parents present it as a crutch. If you're discussing socio-economics, then do so. Playing the race card is demeaning to hard working people of every demographic. Asians came to know harsh working conditions, discrimination,etc in the US upon their arrival and tend to score even higher than caucasians. Why? Poor people have it tougher, this is true. However, our educational system does not discriminate specifically against "African Americans". I find that cynicism rarely can be hidden behind the ruse of "truth".

If the "African American" children in our nation are being starved educationally, it's predominantly due to cultural apathy. If your parents, community, and peer groups don't make education and hard work a priority, there is nothing that American tax dollars can do to change this trend. How have they made a difference as yet? You make a political statement mentioning that the GOP and GW don't believe that the government should promote the general welfare of American society. That is simply absurd. They, along with millions of Americans, believe that poverty is completely seperate from the blatent race debate that you attempt to employ in your post.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, why would our government not target alleviating poverty for everyone? Maybe, just maybe, in my lifetime we will move away from perpetuating generations of "hand out" driven youth. Very seldom in America will a CEO of a Fortune 500 company tell you that they were handed their success. There are plenty of Silver spoon fed politicians on both sides of the aisle, but realistically American commerce is driven by entreprenurial spirit, hard work, dedication, and ambition.

Small government SHOULD appeal to "African Americans". It should appeal to all Americans. The idea that it doesn't work for them insinuates a sense of helplessness and is exactly the problem as opposed to our culture. I deplore the idea that what's good for rural Vermont is good for the citizens of Dallas. This is where ineffective ideas like minimum wage come from. No educated member of American society would argue with the idea that the cost of living in DC is the same as it is in Corpus Christi.... Why is the min wage?
This is the idea that conservatives believe in. Until our government understands that socialized welfare-esque mentalities will never pull communities from poverty, we'll be doomed to repeat our failures.

Well said, aevans176 and spoken with the confidence that comes only when one is both utterly clueless about how race is lived in America and comfortable in their blissful ignorance.

If you think "race has no bearing on scholastic success unless of course their parents present it as a crutch" the only thing I can derive from such a statement is that you are a person that has no understanding of the realities facing African-American, Latino and yes--even Asian children in today's schools. You play the race card yourself, aevans176 by dragging Asians into this debate. Asians are often cited (or exploited) as the "model minority" by white conservatives looking for excuses to ignore the inequities in education that currently exist. Typically, what it most clearly illustrates is how superficial their understanding of the Asian people is.

As to be expected, you feebly attempt to compare the totally separate circumstances of African-Americans and Asian-Americans without providing any sort of correlation except since both are minority groups they must share a similar history, live under similar conditions and should reach similar results. Which is utter and complete nonsense.



If you bothered to look before you posted, you might have noticed aevans176 that this thread IS about the divisions between Black Americans and the Republican Party. How we have that debate without debating race is beyond me. Poverty is completely separate from race? What a novel concept! It's totally divorced from reality, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I would submit that millions of Americas DON'T believe that poverty is completely separate from race. Surprise! Some of them may be black. Some of them may be Republican. Some may even be both.

Well, Nightimer, ignorance is relative sir. The reality is that your post is flush with rhetoric and a complete lack of objectivity. I know for a fact that I, as well as my children and peers were denied government scholarship money that was inevitably given to minorities, regardless of scholastic merit or financial circumstance. You mention that there are "inequities" in education, but I would love to see some objective information that shows why skin color makes it so hard for anyone. (or easier in retrospect). I will never argue that Maslow's hierarchy of needs will dictate that in a family where electricity and food are scarce, it would be rough for a child to worry about Algebra. That has nothing to do with skin color. I surely hope that you won't venture to post about culturally biased testing as a retort.

I know for a fact that affirmative action is still a consideration and that "diversity" is still an issue on college admissions.

I know for a fact that American tax dollars support blatently racially centered ideas such as affirmative action.

I don't believe that everyone is dealt the same cards, but am elated that Americans have finally come to a stopping point with the gravy train. How many more tax dollars do we have to pour into social programs that very obviously don't work?

There is a sincere difference between objectivity and ignorance. The reasons that most "african americans" (of course not referring to those recently immigrated from Africa) don't lean towards conservative thinking and don't associate themselves with republicans has very little to do with objective thought and political understanding but more peer pressure and cultural tendencies.

Again, as I posted before, if you chose to discuss the affect of poverty on children's scholastic success (or any success for that matter), I'd be happy to agree.

Thank You Jaime.

I believe whole heartedly that the GOP has much to offer the African American community, and there are some stark similarities in fundamental thinking. We often times align ourselves on issues such as immigration, abortion, and defense. There are plenty of other issues that can be discussed... family values, church and state, etc.

Most Americans make political decisions based upon a number of reasons, one of which is social pressure. This is similar to regionalized differences, for instance Washington state tends to be more liberal than Texas. If you associate yourself with a group whom leans to the right or the left, your vote is often times cast accordingly (whether it fits your value system or not). African Americans, just as the rest of us, follow family ties and community tendencies.

Man I got a paper to write but I won't be able to start until I address some issues

NeoCon


Now you are a conservative and Republican I believe. What you've come up with is an outline of a plan... with no great details. Perfect. But the problem is.... your not the Republican party, and they aren't interested as a political party doing what you did. The fact that you make a comment like... "My idea of educational reform goes far beyond what 'No Child Left Behind' does, but that is for another debate." just shows that even a conservative Republican like yourself can see how woefully lacking the premier plan if the Republican party is. And here is another problem I think you will run into... the mindset of the Republican party. They are do not like helping people with tax dollars!! I take that back... To rephrase, unless the help comes in the form of bullets assailing other humans, Republicans do not want to help with tax dollars.
***Notice I said TAX DOLLARS*** I am sure they are for giving to charities and volunteering, but when money goes in the form of say "universal health care for all american" Republicans cry to the high heavens!! Now let's add now you say those people are Black in particular.... BRICKS, that's what will be coming out their tailpipes...BIG... RED... BRICKS!! Even if it is for urban people regardless of race, it will be seen as racial help. Blacks and Latinos are disproportionately poor, so anything that helps impoverished, especially urban impoverished people will likely have a Black or Latino face on it. Take affirmative action.... affirmative action has helped more white women than blacks, yet it is program that is always talked about in racial terms. My point is, if it helps the urban poor more than anybody else than it will help minorities more than anybody else and if it helps minorities more than anyone else the Republicans won't touch it.

Aevans


Well how about Republicans get out a plan to do that, then we won't talk about race. If repubs are ready to get serious on this war on poverty and start putting the billions like they do in this war of terrorism, I am sure they will start earning more Black and Latino vote, but I guarantee they will begin to alienate their base.

You know the best plan Republicans have for poverty?? Get married!! That's what it all boils down to.... unless you are gay, get married. The problem with Conservatives is they don't want to see the problem is poverty!! Poverty causes a lack of education.. Poverty causes an increase of criminality... Criminal activity increases decadent behavior.. The only thing worse than poverty is poverty mixed with overcrowding... i.e. the Ghetto. But republicans will never want to fight poverty because to fight poverty you have to fight the rich and Republicans ain't neeeeever been about doing anything but making rich people richer.

You can't fight poverty on an individual or moral grounds. You can only do it by mass social programs that address wealth redistribution in some form or another. Whether that be as Ol' Sarge put it "Robin Hood mania" or affirmative action programs.

I disagree!

I am always amazed how the black community automatically accepts they are unfortunate and deserving of a lift up from poverty as a race. That theory made since following the Civil War but I think we can all agree that was a very long time ago along with billions of dollars contributed to level the playing field, yet the problem seems to get progressively worse.

Education is the problem blacks are not equal in social status and all of the black posters on this board are proof of that very fact. Check this out I was born to poverty and my dad worked an average 12 hours a day seven days a week milking cows for a house, an outhouse spot, a gallon of milk a day, a garden spot, a hen house spot and $35.00 a week. I worked from age 13 for $0.30 an hour like a man in the fields doing slave labor and the ten-hour day rewarded $3.00 that would pay for one pair of Levi’s. My mother had a sixth and dad a fifth grade education. The minimum wage was $1.75 an hour so every black made more money than my family that worked equal hours.

Like I said, you are proof education made the difference since you all are more articulate than I indicating you have encountered a better education than me. Neither my family nor I ever took one cent of state or federal aid, not one penny. My brother and sister also graduated high school and I even managed to take three years of college. None of us has found it necessary to seek help from the government for our needs and my sister is divorced and her son attends college and my brother has five children who all completed high school and now owns a farm in OH. My sister, brother and I own our own homes and I have one son in private school and one in public school that was expelled from private school last semester. I just don’t get the unfortunate part if you see where I’m coming from?

I see a group of people who are convinced they are unfortunate because of their color and I can only conclude they feel that way because the Democratic Party told them they were unfortunate and only the government could help them. Darn, I knew I was unfortunate but I did the deal of capitalism and did it inside of the law along with my family and we are all just above poverty with a bright future for our children who are being prepared for an even better outcome if they apply themselves, heck maybe my kids will be as smart as you guys once they’re education is complete.

My whole point is until the black community accepts they are poor and acknowledges education is the only way out the Dems will keep them that way. How can those DC moms and Dads support the union teachers the Dems prop up with $75 K and bennies and demand if the government gives the teachers more money it will get better? Why do they support a party that would refuse an opportunity for success in a voucher program even though that would subvert the rich teachers turning out jailbait? Why do the moms and dads make the drug dealers hero’s by giving their kids money to buy the gangster rap CD’s? Why do the blacks support a party that says a disproportionate percentage of blacks go to jail? The folks go to jail because of the moms and dads support the party that is fixing everything and not being angered by poor academic performance and celebrates success of drug dealers, gangsters and excuses the failure of their children because they are unfortunate because of the bad Repubs refusal to prop them up with blind eyes to crime, give more money to failing teachers and refuse to be the kids mom and dad. Who will be the responsible adult to demand the kids go to school to learn more than the teacher drives a nicer car than mom and dad and is equally stupid and uncaring?

Bad behavior should be knee deep in pig crap and I’m talking drugs and lawlessness and the teachers not doing their jobs should be spit on and the kids doing well in school should be elevated. Until bad behavior is scorned in a vile way by parents no amount of money will “lift up” unfortunate people from my humble opinion.

Then you never received any money from the government due to your work in the military? And that never helped you or gave you a leg up?



These are some pretty bold assertions here. First off that the black community at large doesn't accept their general position in the United States is a bit off base. I'm pretty sure they know where they fall, and where they'd like to be. Also, the Dems want to keep the Afro. Am. down? Is that what I'm seeing? I think this is just ridiculous. I know some people view welfare and other government programs as hand outs that only keep people in their positions because people decide to keep getting something for nothing than show any work. But let's not pretend it's only blacks "taking advantage" of the system, there's whites, mexicans, latinos, asians, basically all americans who are on a gov. system can take advantage of it. So let's get serious here.



Yes billions of dollars have been spent, but if people don't make the necessary changes in their behavior then that money is wasted. I'm always amazed at how people dismiss the problems faced by the black community as being in the past. The problem is this: America is 229 yrs old, slavery was ended about 150 yrs ago, UNEQUAL treatment of minorities (mainly blacks) was ended in schools about 55 yrs ago, and the civil rights movement "ended" 30 yrs ago. Do you think people have had time to change their ideas, conceptions, and stereotypes by now? I certainly don't. And I believe this is one thing that is keeping blacks, and other minorities down. What people self-report (ie. I'm not racist) is not necessarily how they act, whether one likes it or not.

So where does this all go? The idea that blacks got themselves into this situation and should be able to get themselves out with a little elbow-grease, determination, and gumption is a little naive. The plight of many minorities is due to many many factors, not just "they're lazy and if they really wanted to succeed they could do it." Oversimplification of a complex problem, like social ones, is ridiculous.

How do we solve these problems? Difficult question. Obviously education helps anyone become more successful, but there needs to be a fundamental shift in how people think and act. Research indicates that this is happening and that people expect there to be less stereotypes in the future than there are today. I think people just need to be more realistic about the problems being faced. I would posit that there is still discrimination, although more covert, in hiring for jobs and college acceptance.



It would if that is what the reps. were doing, you know, making gov. smaller. I don't think cutting social programs can necessarily count as making gov. smaller. Maybe making gov. help smaller.

Ol Sarge I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Now that Roberto Alomar appears washed up, maybe we could hire him to spit on all those shiftless teachers.

I'm sure John Hirschbeck will understand.

Seriously, I don’t think you have any idea just how hard most teachers work. It is true that they (I say they because I'm in a band now--The Grateful Retired ) only work 10 months a year, but the 10 month salary is just divided by 12. You might say teachers have 5/6th of a job. Kind of sounds like something in the Constitution droop224 mentioned. Then there’s a lot that has to be done outside or after class. There’s endless lesson plans, grading papers, frequent after school staff and professional development meetings, meetings with parents who just can take off from work, but expect teachers to stay after school to meet with them. I never did, but some teachers are so dedicated that they even give their home phone number to their students’ parents. Speaking of spending extra time. You know, the district I worked in required every employee to spend six hours a year for five years doing "diversity training" because a few loud mouths didn't understand that they couldn't use racial epithets at will, that they had to at least make an effort to be politically correct--this was on our watch without extra pay.

And you know what else? When I started in 1968, Texas teachers didn't get any time during the day for planning, didn't even get time to eat lunch away from the kids. Then that pesky damned union demanded change. Teachers got a 50 minute planning period every day and a 30 minute duty-free lunch. Imagine that! What's easier to imagine is that recent legislatures have toyed with the idea of stripping these menimal rights. You know, if every teacher has a class during that 50 minutes, we don't need as many teachers. What a bargain. The state saves money. Wow! Fortunately, the fools in the Texas legislature haven't yet rushed in where angels fear to tread.

Then there’s always the matter of spending money out of one’s own pockets. I don’t know too many teachers who haven’t purchased copy paper, bulletin board materials, etc. How many times have teachers bought museum tickets out of their own pocket so that broke students don’t have to remain at school while their peers go on a field trip? How many teachers have I known who have bought items of clothing for students--students who might otherwise come to school in freezing weather without a coat or with holes in the soles of their shoes?

Whether a teacher works in a poverty stricken district or the Hamptons, the overwhelming majority of teachers care about their students. They work hard despite the fact that many find it a thankless task.

The rub is this. If things continue as they are, low salaries, lack of respect, little support from administrators and sometimes parents, then there will be a teacher shortage in this nation the likes of which we have never known. Already, alternative methods of certification are needed to fill critical areas such as math, science and special education.

Lockheed Martin has a huge facility in Fort Worth. When defense contracts wane, people who were making gobs more money flock to teaching. It's their rainy day game plan. Then when the aircraft industry picks up--you guessed it, they are gone--outta there. If we lose our core of professional teachers--and I think it is going to happen--then we're left with the Lockheed Martin layoffs and such, who vanish as soon as the rain stops and the defense industry pot of gold reappears at the end of the rainbow.

Conservatives here tout education as an answer for minority students and then say, perhaps in jest, that those teachers some self righteous know-it-all assumes aran’t doing their jobs, should be spit on. It’s a shame, but the exodus from education by professional teachers and those gifted younger people who look at teaching as an option and say NO won’t hurt BoF, won’t hurt Ol Sarge, won’t hurt that cadre of conservatives who support Bush’s under funded and over stress producing “No Child Left Behind.” No, the coming lack of teachers will only hurt kids—Black kids, White kids, Asian kids, Hispanic kids, Native American kids and kids we can’t even classify.

Spit on teachers? Indeed, sir.

First of all getting a letter congratulating me for being chosen to be a pop up target for my country is a lot different than taking the welfare dime. If you don’t think the military earns every penny they receive you have never served!
We are debating blacks and Repubs. The affiliation the blacks have with Dems is the welfare dime. The exclusion from the Repubs is the desire for more welfare dimes and prop up’s. If the Dems aren’t keeping them down who is perhaps Hollywood? It is so cool to become a ball star, a gangster rapper and drug dealer, yet so un-cool to be educated.

I never had any real close contact with blacks until being drafted into the military and as a 19 year old private living in an open room with about 30 soldiers about 60-40 mix working three shifts of MP duty one learns what people are like. They were no different than me other than skin color, body odor, and music preference. In the field training we, blacks and whites complained equally about how bad the other race smelled after ten days in the woods without a shower and laughed at the reality of it calling each other to get their “goat smelling butts away”. We worked equally hard and played the same and if a bigot passed over a promotion for a black we felt their pain. The bigots soon disappeared and the field was level for upward mobility.

Why do I say all of this stuff? Because we were unequal until the bigots disappeared but then equal as we all performed in competition without one side being propped up. The black guys earned respect! Yes there was a big brother making sure the bigots were cleaned out of leadership but no crutches were issued to the black soldiers. Crutches were issued to women soldiers later on in my service and on my retirement there was more resentment towards women soldiers than black male soldiers.

All people respect earned respect efforts like demonstrated by Martin Luther King and his supporters. People reject being told to accept lower expectations and I personally consider it a crutch people will lean on until it is taken away.

Perhaps I was a little harsh with my “spit on the teachers that produce only jailbait” remark. I taught grown soldiers computer applications for a government contractor after retiring to a mixed group of students of computer savvy and illiterate students and it was quite challenging to keep the attention of those being bored to death while leaving no one behind. I don’t know how you made it?

My outrage is more towards the status quo in DC of sending more money into DC schools like it will make a better result with more money. Students will only learn when taught at a rate they can comprehend and if a male child makes it to puberty without great reading, math and science skills he is screwed by his hormones for any possibility of success if there isn’t a dominate role model to place his priorities. This is where I say the family is just as responsible as the student for success or failure. There can’t be an adult attitude that drug-crime riches is celebrated while acceptance of poor performance in school is excused and hope for any change. The young men will always take the easy route to shiny things that attract the T’s and A’s like water flowing down hill when hormones dictate. A young man will always consider himself wiser than his mom and dad and I have one in my family, my oldest son who thinks rock stars are more cool than school and he is 100% sure I wasted his time until midnight last night making him complete his homework.

I don’t believe in minimum wage or unions and think they are un-American. Unions can only be fair if every citizen has one to include housewives and househusbands. If the job manager sucks move on otherwise don’t complain. Supply and demand will result in proper compensation if left alone.

WOW.
First of all, as a veteran and a caucasian republican, I cannot say that I agree with your assertion about the "welfare dime", democrats, and black Americans.

Realistically, Black Americans relate to Democrats due to years of socialized politics. The democrats assert that they will cater to the needs of problems that black Americans believe are unique to them, such as urban poverty or single-parent families for instance. Republicans as a whole do not necessarily associate the "welfare dime" with black Americans as a group. Please don't throw us all into that boat.

However, what you will find is that liberal politicians have targeted urban areas, poorer Americans, and the less educated portion of America. This happens to encompass the elderly and minorities as a whole. The irony is that often times these groups have conservative values on many topics, but align themselves politically with the left.

Why? I believe that it basically has to do with the GOP's lack of discerning the differences during elections, not marketing to these minority groups, and focusing more on the portion of their constituency that funds election campaigns. Many republican leaders believe that by targeting minority America and attempting to cater to specialized needs will alienate the "far right", and this may be true. It's the conundrum that centrist/moderate republicans face.

Your point about education being "uncool" is somewhat true. Cultural differences can sometimes be construed as apathy or cynicism, of which no amount of tax dollars or gov't intervention will control. This, however, has little to do with why most Black Americans are not republicans...

What an utterly racist remark. You see, all of you, who claimed that racist stereotypes dont exist and that race is not an issue today? There you have it. Big and bold and disgusting as it comes.

'People' are affiliated with the Dems because they dont like to be lied to about wars their children are going to be dying in. Perhaps they dont like the fact that they, and their children are going to be paying the price for wealthy tax cuts together with huge deficiets and wars to free Islam which the cost will fall on their backs far into the future, or budget cuts in education for all of us 'americans' with kids in public school and environmental protections erosion to boot, oh but black dems could not be concerned with that! Or like myself, do not appreciate the wealthy getting richer on incentives, while being told that incentives make the poor lazy. But its not even about the poor, Id really like to hear what middle and upper class black democrats think about that 'Dems Welfare dime remark', because I am a Dem, but Im white and not on welfare. Am I included in your remark about a welfare dime, with two kids in public school, or is that reserved only for black democrats.

You know, with the comment you made, I could but I dont even have to go on, you have SAID IT ALL.