My excuse is I am new here....so this is probably the wrong forum in which to open this topic...and perhaps it has been done before....so forgive me - and please feel free to move, delete, or award me the Pulitzer for chutzpah.

I mentioned subject of "hyphenated Americans" in another thread and it was suggested that this might be an interesting topic to discuss. I see this as not only a cultural but also a political problem/discussion.

How does this align with E Pluribus Unum?

How does this affect the way we see/think/explain ourselves?

Does this negate the existence of a distinctly American culture?

Is this a negative or positive feature in our society and political debate as a nation?

This has personally given me a great deal of difficulty in my interactions on a professional level in this part of the country. If there is interest in this thread, I will expand on this.

Hi Basheva, I'm DP. The resident argumentitive S.O.B Welcome to the forums

Long story short, I dislike the hyphenated terms we seem to coin. It's great to be proud of your heritege. I am of mine. Yet, it also serves to distance yourself from your current home



For those who may not know "Out of many, One"

X-Americans would make that more like: "Out of many, many more"



To me, it's like saying "I'm an American, but not really"


Absolutely. Our culture has been lost through political correctness, hyphenated names, and other forms of political segragation. Another 50 years, and our school children probably won't know who George Washington is, or what he did.



Pretty obvious that I think it's negative. I'm not afraid to call it how I see it



I totally, and 100% agree. As a white male, I sometimes am made to feel as though I can't be myself around those who are not white males. Should something I say be accidentally misconstrued, a lawsuit will ruin me for the rest of my life. I'd be branded a racist, would never hold a good job, etc etc. That is the kind of thing that would follow me around for the rest of my life.

I have heard others express the same feelings. It's a growing issue in the business community especially.

Many people I have known, have been writen up, or have had lawsuits filed, because what they said was misunderstood by someone who took offense.

This x-American nonsense is just one more thing that adds to the segregation of the races, and the loss of American culture altogether.

Yes, please do elaborate

--cheers

I love these sorta Q&A type threads - thanks.

It represents the "Pluribus".

If used to generalize, marginalize, or seperate, negatively; if used merely as a demographic identification, in a neutral fashion; if used to advance the rights of minority groups or to create diversity, perhaps positively.

An ethnic mix is what makes our culture distinctly American - so, no.

See question 2 for "our society; in terms of political debate, it can help identify the needs and issues of special interest groups. Ultimately, I'd like to see the day when such labels are irrelevant. Not in my lifetime.

Please expand.

The promised 'expansion'.....I live in a part of the country (and neighborhood) that is thoroughly and completely mixed: ethnically, racially, economically and I am a child of the big city so I am used to it, and I enjoy it (especially the diverse restaurants - sorry I couldn't resist that last one).

I taught ballet for over 25 years. For me the only thing that matters is how a student responds, is able to incorporate, the progress (or not) made, and the joy I can bring to a student in teaching what I love so much. I really don't care what that student looks like or where that student comes from. The ballet exists on every continent and is composed of dancers of every racial/ethnic/religious group. Anyone who thinks of the ballet as a 'white European' art form, isn't paying attention. That's where it started, but that's not where it is at today. By any means.

I taught in the southern part of San Diego County close to the Mexican border in a public high school with a performing arts curriculum (it was a product of out-reach for student diversity using the arts as the magnet. So, it was called a magnet school.) I could write an entire book on the problems encountered with teaching issues, PC issues, and the concommitant collapse (or near collapse) of the state of public education - but I am sure that belongs in a different thread. Perhaps a different board.

I found myself teaching a class of girls (mostly) who are the children of immigrants (recent and ancient) of Mexico. Teaching ballet is a very intimate process - mentally, physically and emotionally. Teachers and students get to know one another very well. I have no difficulty sharing myself with my students - it's part of my teaching methodology.

However, I drew the line when I was asked by the students - demanded actually - that I supply them with the hypen before my made-in-America self. No matter how many times they asked me, no matter how they insisted (which they did daily), no matter how they phrased it, no matter how polite/rude they were, my answer to their question "What kind of American are you?" My answer was always the same: "I am an American."

This got to be quite an issue. They considered this a very important thing to know about me. They said they had been taught, in public school no less, that everyone was 'something' American. I just kept repeating, I was born here - Philadephia actually, within walking distance of the Liberty Bell - and I am an American. Now if you ask me where my family originated from, that is quite a different question, but it has no bearing on my view of myself and my place and part of this country.

Interestingly, my mother was an immigrant. She defied bullets (yes, she was shot at), hunger, six years of waiting for a quota system that would allow her to enter this country legally. It was her pride and joy to become a citizen. She NEVER thought of herself as a hyphenated American.

But apparently, based on what I saw at the school at which I taught, the children were being taught that is not enough, one needs to be hyphenated to be believeable. And my taxes are paying for this - ack.

On a fairly recent TV cable news show one of those pseudo pundits was being interivewed concerning this issue. This female pundit interpreted E Pluribus Unum as "From One, Many" - which is of course incorrect. When her error was pointed out to her, she gave a very instructive answer: "Whatever"

It's a difference of tremendous import. It's not "whatever" at all. In my opinion.

I don't personally care what anybody calls themselves, we are a free society.

But what is the rational for hyphenating certain ethnicities and not others on forms and documents?
My example would be listing african-american and white.

Is this done because it's popularly accepted now?
Why are we the only country, to my knowledge that does this?

If someone sees me and calls me white, I don't care even though I'm scottish and indian.
But if I call someone black instead of african-american, I often get scolded.

Am I a non-politically correct Neanderthal throwback, or are we being hypersensitive?

My answer, yes.

Ideally we all would be American-Americans because this would mean we realized the color/ethnicity/religion/lifestlye etc. blindness created a discrimination free society.

However, self-knowledge is the most important kind. I think the ideal would be that we could celebrate our cultural heritage while being inclusive with all groups. Aww shucks, that's just a little to Pollyanna but it's snowing here and . . . . . . . I'll just stop while I'm behind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying one's ethnicity, even if in means using a dreaded hyphen. The fact is, that unless you are a Native American,(<--Note: No Hyphen), you get a hyphen whether you like it or not. That's the price of our ancestors invading and conquering their homeland. Pretty low price to pay for it, IMHO. We are a country of incredibly diverse culture, products of our ancestry, and that's just something we'll all have to live with.

As far as any arguments against 'political correctness'... What exactly is it that is so horrible about using a non-offensive term when referring to someone? Is it that big of a problem to show your fellow man a little bit of respect, instead of using old-fashioned, often derrogatory labels for people? As an Anglo-French-Native American, I feel a sense of pride in bearing my hyphens, and I don't think that it takes away from me being an American at all.

Basheva: I find it difficult to imagine a context in which you would be subject to a constant "demand" that you identify yourself as a hyphenated-American. You make it sound like some bizarre twelve step program, some Ethnics Anonymous: "My name is Liam and I am an Irish-American." [applause and cheers]

Do you maybe think that your seeming intransigence in refusing to identify yourself as anything other than "American" could have contributed to your students' curiosity? In the process of "sharing yourself", did you discuss your family's country of origin? If ballet is this "very intimate process", I would have thought that part of you and your students "getting to know one another very well" could easily include sharing your ethnic background or family ancestry - especially as you seem to have got to know them intimately enough to distinguish "recent and ancient" immigrants.

Were you able to discover why they felt that someone who would not disclose their ethnic backgound might not be considered "believable"? I find it difficult to imagine a teacher literally telling a classromm "If someone refuses to desribe themselves as a fill-in-the-blank-American, they are not to be believed." Was their insistence on hyphenation perhaps a misunderstanding of the notion that no one of any single race or national origin can lay claim to being "American" - that one of the unique features of this country is that we are all (with the possible exception of "native Americans") immigrants - and relatively "recent" ones at that? Did you try to explore this notion of theirs and help them to understand your spin on what makes an American?

And I'm still not certain how this hyphenation issue lead to "a great deal of difficulty in [your] interactions on a professional level". Was there an impact on your ability to teach ballet? Did your students refuse to go to the barre and plié until you disclosed your hyphen? Were you somehow reprimanded for breaching some code of ethnics by refusing to share your national descent? Apart from refusing to participate in a dialogue with your students, I'm not yet clear on where the "great deal of difficulty" laid.

I agree that the correct translation of e pluribus unum is of tremendous import - that, as a nation, we are not of a homogeneous origin - that we are not e unus unum - and that we should never forget just how inclusive this country is (or should be). This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to appreciate your reluctance to acknowledge that you, too, are but one of the diverse ingredients which make up our "oneness". The fact that my mother was German-Irish and my father a blend of Scots, Irish, French, Welsh, Dutch, and Mohawk is part of what makes me American - but the other part is that I live with fellow Americans who are 100% Nigerian or Cuban or Indonesian or Greek - or who are as much a mongrel as I am.

I like "mongrel-american", which can be shortened to "MA" (pronounced "em-ae"). Then we can have NMAs (non-mongrel-americans, pronounced "neemahs") and "other", as in "I am an other-american", or more to the point, "another American".

Wertz - were I to address all the issues you bring up concerning classroom atmospherics I would be taking this topic off topic, so I will try to address only a couple while still trying to maintain the integrity of the discussion.

No, I was never reprimanded - ever. But it did affect the classroom. There were a few other children whose ethnicity was not obvious and they just wanted to get on with the work at hand. It introduced an issue into the classroom that, in my opinion, did not further the learning process of the subject matter.



Though you may find this difficult to imagine - nevertheless, it was true. The degree to which these children found this issue to be of importance - truly amazed me.



What you label as my 'intransigence' - I label as my 'choice.'



By sharing myself intimately - I am alluding to sharing the experiences I have had as a professional ballet dancer - my experiences surrouding the learning process - which since it is a physical experience (using the body as an instrument) though still keeping it on a professional plane, can become quite personal.

I never delved into the backgrounds of the children in the classroom, but when they are speaking Spanish as their first language, and declaring they are Hispanic/Chicano/Latino/Mexican Americans, it becomes obvious.

As for using the words 'recent and ancient' - I was merely giving courteous acknowledgement to the fact that many people from Baja California were here originally - and many have come later. I was 'bowing' to both groups as a whole, not to any individual person.

These children had been taught in other classrooms (and perhaps at home, I don't know) that it is of great importance to know this about a person. I let them know I feel culturally intact without a hyphen. That was an entirely new thought for them. I think perhaps by the end of the term they might have begun to see that my choice was as valid as theirs.

As for it affecting demi and grand plié at the barre - I never teach grand plié except in second position. I have many good and solid (or so it seems to me) reasons for choosing to teach it in that way, and my choice as to whether to hyphenate myself doesn't affect that. My choices as to how to teach ballet is not based upon hyphens either of myself or my students.

Perhaps, by the end of the term they may have agreed.

Not true, stefan, I have never been given the choice of european-american, or any other ethnicity than 'white'.
I have never been referred to as anything other than 'white'.

I've lived in and travelled to many other countries, and I have found that we are the only populace that practices this, why???

What would other ethnicities in this country think of a movement to demand that I and others who look like me be called european-americans?
I doubt it would be greeted with open arms.

I think this it the whole point here, this 'oneness' is distinctly American. No other country in the world can claim such a large, diverse mix of national origin or ethnicity.

The hyphenated ancestry thing, I believe, is pretty recent. My buddy Sean's dad (he's in his 50s) has entertained me with long and passionate tirades about other (younger) black men's attempts to convince him of the inappropriateness of any term other than "African-American." He says he's black, he's always been black, and he will always be black. His mother takes offense at being called anything other than "colored"--how well do you think that would go over today? But that's what she grew up with. I suspect the x-American nomenclature is an organic term that reflects the collective desires of minority groups to maintain distinctions within an increasingly integrated society, suggesting to me that racism is on its way out (or at least, not remotely as prevalent or accepted as it once was).

If that's the case, then it seems as though, overall, it may have been a positive experience for your students - despite the "great deal of dificulty" in making your point.

Is this something that happens on TV a lot, or something? I ask this because 1) I don't have TV, and 2) in my own experience, the hyphenating thing never comes up. Like never. It's not that the subject of race never comes up, it's just, I don't know.

- DTOM, I'm having trouble imagining your conversations in which when you call someone black, they scold you, or you get scolded. I've never been in a conversation where I pointed someone's skin color out to them, and I don't see where it would come up. Not for PC reasons, it's just that when do you address people by their ethnicity? Do you say, "hello, black person," or something? BTW, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'd just like you to expand on that because I don't understand.

The most common ones I've heard are, of course, Native American and African American. I think that these are reflections of both a political (Native) and a historical (African) awakening. One thing to remember with African Americans, is that when Africans were brought here as slaves, their African culture was crushed out of them. By the 20th century, most blacks in this country had no concept of African culture or their own heritage. They no longer knew what tribe they were from, what their religion had been, etc. The rediscovery of African heritage was really a pretty huge thing in terms of group self image and respect.

For Americans of European descent, even though many of our ancestors were persecuted or brought here as indentured servants, there was no immediate, violent, purposeful erasing of culture. Even now that many of us are mongrels, we can usually trace our bloodlines to particular nationalities and ethnicities. It's important to remember, I think, that hardly any black people can do the same thing. They don't know what percentage is Wolof, or Masai, or Zulu, or Hutu. Africa as a continent is all they have as a history. The specifics are mostly lost.

I think that the use of African American will probably decline in coming generations, because people of African descent in this country are now taught a more truthful history of their origins, and further generations will simply take that heritage more for granted, just as most European Americans take mostly for granted their own ethnic origins - it's way in the past and has no real bearing on their present lives.

The same will probably be true of Native Americans as well. I have lived on two reservations now, and with each generation, there are more and more mixed-race children. Here on the Makah nation, most of the younger people look pretty white. This is very true for most small tribes, for obvious reasons! The Navajo still have a much stronger racial cast, as do the Cherokees, as they are large tribes.

I don't think a big deal needs to be made about hyphenating, in most cases I think it will pass in the longer run. It doesn't bother me at all, as I don't think it comes into play in personal situations. My best friend is a very dark-skinned Dravidian who's parents moved here from Sri Lanka. In 23 years of friendship, I have never heard the term Sri Lankan-American being used, by him or about him. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it seems to me if people are experiencing situations like some of those described here, there's gotta be something bringing it on. Some way of behaving, or some way of speaking, that brings up the whole issue. As a musician, I have had close relationships with people from all over the ethnic spectrum, and never once has someone insisted they be referred to as a xxxx-American. Probably because it just never comes up. The only way I can imagine it coming up is if I were to speak in a derogatory way to or about someone regarding their ethnicity, which I don't ever do - not out of fear or PCness, it's just something I don't think about (except in abstracted debates like this, of course!) or focus on.

Let me see I am basically European -American, My wife is a Filipina, I guess this classifies her as a Pacific Islander American When she lived in the Phillipines she was a Malay-Chinese-Spanish -Filipina, I guess. Now my son is a European /Pacific Islander American. He is dating A Mexican/Native American woman. If they have children they will be.....sorry,I am getting confused.

In a society where individual rights take second place to group rights this hyphenated nonsense occurs.

Yes quarkhead, I will expand on that. Being in the Army, I constantly have to describe a soldier to someone who is unfamiliar to them. It is common practice, at least in the military, to use ethnicity or skin color to describe someone, ie..white, black, asian, etc..

In addition, I am a graduate of the Army's Equal Opportunity Leaders Course. I instruct soldiers on Army policies concerning race, sexual harassment, etc..
During these occasions, I sometimes get scolded by some of my peers, that they are not black, but african-american. Even though Army policies refer to whites and blacks as such.
So no, I don't say 'hello black person', although I'm picturing how silly that would sound.

got it, and I do understand that context. Sorry if it sounded trite, I really was trying to imagine how it would come up in a conversation!

"Why, hello there, black guy, how's it going?"

"What did you call me?"

"Black guy."

When you greet me in the future, I would rather you say, 'hello there, African-American guy.' "

"Those darn PC bastards!"

Diversity is a great thing for America. Diversity serves the purpose of exponentially increasing the number of issues, whether they be religious, linguistic, racial, ethnic et cetera that can divide a population into factions and pit Americans against one another as enemies. I mean honestly, look what happened to America on 9/11. Possibly in the long run diversity will dismember America to the point where it ceases to exist as a nation such as in the now non-existant USSR, Czechoslovakia, or Yugoslavia. Diversity in the past has come close to breaking up Canada and threatens the UK even today. This is why I am a big supporter of bi-lingual education and immigration. The less Americans have in common with each other, the less they can even communicate with each other, the more they accent their differences which are now becoming numerous, the more they are at each others throats, the more likely they are to keep their nose out of my business and the world's business. I cannot think of a better Trojan Horse than diversity. Diversity will bloody America's nose better than 5 million Osama bin Laden's ever could. With that all said, America nees more diveristy.

Do you think that by hyphenating ourselves (well, some of us anyway) that this contributes to a desire to re-segregate?

For instance, on many college campuses the students are re-segregating themselves in the cafeteria, in student union activities and organizations and by requiring the college to provide facilities for separate graduations.

(On the latter....I wonder how well it would go over if the white students wanted a whites-only graduation ceremony? )

What the "Hyphenated-American" does to our society is create problems that one of these groups amplifies to the collective, that puts the focus on the group, instead of the individual.

What we need to do is focus on the accomplishment and failures of individuals not the group they come from.

I think there might be some confusion between "diversity" and "division". In Canada, for example, the only problems of which I'm aware surround French separatists in Quebec - who are certainly not advocating diversity. I'm not sure to what you're referring in relation to the UK - unless you're referring to the Scots and Irish nationalist movements which, again, have nothing to do with "diversity". Amplify?

I agree, overall, with your support for bi-lingual education (where practicable), immigration, and the positive effects of even more diversity in the US, but I don't see how this tallies with your fears about the possible impact of such diversity.