I noticed an interesting poll in the San Francisco Chronicle which prompted me to location this opinion piece in the LA Times - What's Wrong With American High Schools. This is an opinion piece written by Bill Gates, Chairman of Microsoft and co-founder of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.



I have to admit I found this piece more than a little humorous since Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard in 1976 and is currently one of the richest and most powerful men in America.

However, on to the debate questions:
1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?

2. In the article Gates suggests that the reasons behind the hiring or foreign born workers and outsourcing has to do with the education level of American workers (for white collar jobs anyway). Would outsourcing somehow be solved if our students were smarter and more prepared for the business world?

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?
Actually I don’t know what is being taught in American high schools these days. However, it is apparent that not enough emphasis is being placed on basics of economics within the home. The understanding of finance verses savings to purchase and amortization and the risks involved with all approaches to marketing.

I guess the high schools are teaching the college entrance requirements so if high school is broken then so is college.

I think high school should be divided into two tracks, one for college bound and one for trades or service industry and those not selecting or qualifying for college should attend half day and work apprentice a half day in the junior and senior years to allow teachers to focus on college bound students.

2. In the article Gates suggests that the reasons behind the hiring or foreign born workers and outsourcing has to do with the education level of American workers (for white collar jobs anyway). Would outsourcing somehow be solved if our students were smarter and more prepared for the business world?
I think 99% of off shore or import brains are not because of lack of talent produced in our education system rather it is like Wal-Mart slashing prices or costs in the case of business to those who can do the same work in a different economy or based on factors other than availibility of skills within country.

You make excellent points.

I agree particularlly with your idea of how high school needs to be run. High school is in a sad state of affairs. Since NCLB kids are no longer learning as much as they can and should. We are no longer concentrating on the subject or the core values it represents but on taking enough tests to make our school stick out so that we get funding and teachers get paid. High school is quickly becoming obsolete. My school is cutting 25 teachers because of lack of funding. Now tell me are kids going to learn better in a class with 40 kids or 20?

1. Yes, I do believe American High Schools are obsolete.

They perpetuate an economy designed to produce laborers for a manufacturing economy, rather than intellectuals for the service-based economy we are quickly moving toward.

Is education reform needed?

I have an axe to grind, not for any math teacher, but for the method by which mathematics is taught in the United States. I have sat in math class, interested in learning what was being taught, but like many high school students silently wondering, “Now what am I ever going to use that for?.” That one little question is the basis for a significant problem with the American teaching method of mathematics. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to undermine the importance of math, it is the only language that truly transcends time and cultural barriers. The problem lies with the fact that math is taught as an isolated intellectual exercise which relies on the student to connect concepts to other areas of study to fully comprehend.

A study conducted by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (reported in the December 7th New York Times), evaluated the mathematical skills of fifteen year olds in forty different countries. Their study found that the kids from the United States ranked 28th out of the 40 countries tested, while countries like the Czech Republic which spent significantly less per student on education, ranked in the top 10. Andreas Schleicher, head of the OECD's Educational Statistics and Analysis Division has said that, “students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.”

So there you have it. Rote learning and disconnected concepts. Mathematics is required by a governmentally-set curriculum to be taught as a discrete set of concepts.

Although examples which are based on real-life scenarios exist, the data put out by the OECD reveal that the United States may need to take a lesson on how to teach math from other nations in the world. I have always wondered why the core subjects are not more integrated. Why is science not advanced to a higher level by more complex mathematics? Why is literature not an integral aspect of the history curriculum? Isn't literature just the manifestation of human thought influenced by the time period in which it is written?

So to the US Board of Education (whose members hold degrees in education rather than teaching), I pose the following challenge: Revise our state's curriculum to couple subjects together in order to achieve a level of education comparable to that of international competition.

Well I'm still in high school so I thought I'd throw in an inside opinion. At my school at least science is taken higher by mathematics there are several science class you can't take until you've passed a high enough math class. I think math would be better understood if it showed a problem then explain how the math was used to overcome said problem. Literature is used in history as a tool to show the period but it is mostly used (and more effectively I might add) in grammar and writing style exercises in english classes. Also while literature is the manifestation of human thought almost all of the greatest writers of any generation are the ones that reject the mainstream thought pattern of the time period.

Still I am the exception. Few at my school are as well spoken or as well read as I. There are several reasons for this and our school system is one by tending to cater to the lazy and unable. Instead of setting high standards that must be reached the minimum is so low that I could have passed them in 5th grade.

Well my friends are here but I'll post again later.

CHTT, I know what you mean about math. In high school I did a bit below average in math, but in the military, I did very well. Military technical schools teach application right along with the theory. Years later, in the civilian world, I was going for a degree and had a lot of trouble with calculus, because it was being taught by a mathematician. Getting some help from an engineer allowed me to get a C, but I did not enjoy the class at all. The professor spent all his time derivations and proofs, while we students just wanted to learn how to use it.
And I can agree with Ol Sarge. Those who are content to flip burgers should be introduced to it by working in the school cafeteria starting in 8th grade. Well, that was a bit tougue-in-cheek, but certainly some attitudes need adjusting starting at about that age. My wife and son teach 8th graders and a lot of them have already decided to do nothing with their lives.
It would be nice if there were schools just for students who WANT to be there, and have the support of their parents, so the teachers can put their best efforts toward assisting those who are worth the effort. Dumbing down the curriculum to the level of those who could care less about education is hurting everyone. Adult life is not easy, and the sooner our children learn that, the better.
So, yes, I agree that our schools are obsolete, but not just in curriculum.

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?

The whole society is obsolete if you ask me.

First off, get smarter with building cities and towns. Check out this site:

Rocky Mountain Institute

Second off, teach how to be in control of one's own life:

Richard Bolles Knows

That way folks would not have to work for Microsoft

Third off, consider one-room schoolhouses:

ORS

Seems that both teachers and students thrive in this kind of environment.

2. In the article Gates suggests that the reasons behind the hiring or foreign born workers and outsourcing has to do with the education level of American workers (for white collar jobs anyway). Would outsourcing somehow be solved if our students were smarter and more prepared for the business world?

Bill Gates is out-of-date and out-of-touch with today's reality. We have plenty of high-tech workers, so there's no need to import them, and our high-techies are as smart as anyone else. Maybe more so, since we invented what the foreign outsourcers are learning.

Poor Bill, maybe none of the really good techies want to work for Microsoft. Maybe they like IBM and SUN Micro better. I'd never want to work for that guy.

As far as outsourcing goes, we have domestic outsourcers too, like EDS -- the outfit I'm contracted to through yet another domestic outsourcer.

1. Our highschools are horribly out of date. There is a lot of study technology available out there that the schools do not take advantage of. They could save a lot of time and money if they started some longterm planning instead of a series of quick fixes.

I understand that it is hard, the school system is faced with a lot of seemingly more important everyday issues like drugs, and violence.

Children are simply not being taught to solve problems. They are given the answers and ae told to read or recite them until memorized. This does not teach our children to be flexible in the real world or make them able to make their own decisions. We need to teach children to make their own decisions, and to take responsibility for them.

2. A lot of our problems with outsourcing is that Americans expect a higher pay for the same amount of output. Because of laws, taxes and costs here in America, it is more cost-effective to outsource. A companies job is to make money and flourish. Companies don't just outsource to other countries fro the fun of it. Foreign workers will produce the same or more product for less money. It is american arrogance that makes the jobs go away. If we would take responsibility for ourselves and our actions and prove that we are worth the extra pay, then the jobs will come back.

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?


I do agree. I find it interesting that there have been comments made in this thread that there needs to be two tracks: One for those going to college, one not. It used to be those not going to college were one of three things: Some were not mature enough to take school seriously and so goofed off but later went on to college (that's me, I graduate in a few days, and if I had been put in a 'never gets to go to college track' it would have been a waste, as I am far less competent in a factory or office job than in a job that requires more education-I get bored, and I have a trick spine). Some kids were not overly bright. And some were the applied math and science kids who loved shop: working on cars, designing things, etc. I suppose it's still very much that way now, fifteen years later.

And that last category needs some thinking about: This third group, the "trade skills group" needs to go to college as much or more than the lit nerds! This is the group we need in college, if we're not going to forever lose our technological advantage to other nations. I don't agree with Bush on much, but he remarked recently that more financial aid should be available to people willing to go to college for math and science related fields. And Edward Kennedy proposed training more math and science teachers and improving the standards of early math and science education. I agree with both policies.




2. In the article Gates suggests that the reasons behind the hiring or foreign born workers and outsourcing has to do with the education level of American workers (for white collar jobs anyway). Would outsourcing somehow be solved if our students were smarter and more prepared for the business world?


No, I think this is incorrect. If this were the problem, they'd bring in teachers to teach our citizens whatever their citizens know. This is about the sweatshop labor and the higher profits. Since I do not want to compete for jobs against a twelve year old making twelve cents a day who doesn't dare organize a strike or union lest she be shot by the local warlord, I think we need anti-sweatshop tariffs on everything coming into this country. Because there is no appeasing the corporations. If one is permitted to profit by hiring the aforementioned 12 year-old, then the rest will either lose ground or do the same. It's called a race to the bottom, and it's laws against these practices and the right to enact protective trade barriers that will control outsourcing, not laws mandating the preparation of students. Unless by preparation you mean "prepare them to work for slave wages, with no health benefits, in dangerous conditions, without complaint, and without striving for something better."

And that will not work in America, because even Americans, complacent as we sometimes are, have our breaking point.

I'd like to suggest that the problems of the modern day High School began much earlier than the appearance of NCLB. As a student myself, I believe that the impact of NCLB (at least in the state of Nebraska) has been most present in the changing mentality of the public school system. By this I mean to say that although there have been an increasing amount of standardized tests, the majority of teachers haven't bended their curriculum "to the test" as strongly as many believe. Teachers with minds of their own recognize the value of true education over national standardization.

So, in answer to the question of "Are our schools obsolete?" I reply: Admittedly, of course, there are problems (that is apparent in volumes of research and decreasing test scores and an increase in school violence, etc.), however, obsolete is an overly extreme and unnecessary term. I believe these such problems were created throughout the 20th century, without being able to pinpoint a particular decade or point in time. If we compare the image of a public school in 1900 with one in 2005, we would see two vastly different entities with different standards of teaching, acceptable behavior, and punishment. In modern schools, it is fair to say that the administration has taken a relatively laissez-faire position in how students should be taught. Today, there is a lack of punishment (child abuse laws, potential to be sued, etc.), and decreased educational standards (a general distaste for memorization, more readiness to cram the information and regurgitate it, teachers accepting late work). School administrations are unwilling to increase their expectations for students. Those who are highly motivated "achieve" and those who are lazy unmotivated students STILL GET BY . No, our schools are not obsolete, however, if we wish to see a brighter more productive future in the world of the economy, politics, skilled and scientific labor, and education, a radical reform must take place in the school systems of the United States.

-Aeschines

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?

I believe that Bill Gates is trying to sell more software. The reality is that there is absolutely no such thing as the 20th Century Classroom. I would assert that a 15th century mathematician would acquire programming and other computer skills as deftly as would any modern one. We are trapped in our own momentum and somehow have been led to believe that humankind is changing as rapidly as the microchip.
The reality is simple. A sound thinker with intellectual rigor can solve nearly any problem put before them. (Albet Einstein admitted that he was not the brightest of his generation, only the most stubborn) Our challenge as a society is simply to create such individuals. Putting computers in the classroom is, perhaps, beneficial. However, first we must simplify our cirricula, educate parents, and reduce our dependance on instant gratification.

As far as curriculum goes, the US is woefully barbaric in its approach. Let me illustrate an example of the American method of problem solving. I used to work at Pratt & Whitney (a jet engine manufacterer). A metallurgist who worked there compared the US's and the Russian approach to fighter jets this way: "The US tries to make a super expensive jet that does everything and is always on the cutting edge, meanwhile the Russians make a simple jet, focused on only a few things, that costs a lot less. So, effectively, our jets would have to defeat 5 of theirs in order to be worth their cost."

Our education system works in the same way. We try to teach everything to kids in broad, often unfocused brush-strokes. For example, my fiancee was at a math curriculum meeting in which a presenter compared the state's and a Japanese math curriculum for third graders. The Japanese curriculum was only a few pages wheras the US one was nearly a phonebook. The Japanese focus on basic, core concepts and do it unceasingly with young children. In the US we go only skin deep on hundreds, if not thousands, of second tier applications.
By the time kids get to high school they have seen a thousand applications to a mathematical concept they have never really attacked head on.

When the tree is sick look to the root.....


So no, I do not agree with Bill Gates. We don't need students trained in technology, we need thinkers. If a thinker decides to learn programming they will do so easily...no need for training.


This feels good. It has been a while since I have had the time to join AD and discuss things. I'm glad to be back. Oh yeah, Ole Sarge , I agree with you about tracking students for various schools of study. There is a regrettable prejudice against the tradeskills and service industries in this country. I see many brilliant, would-be mechanics fall to the wayside as "trouble makers" in collegiate focused high schools. I only disagree with you on one thing...we shouldn't track students in order to free up teachers to help college bound kids. Rather, we should send kids to trades programs to give them the chance to realize their own, equal potential.


Please forgive my typing oddities...Spellchecker won't highlight the mistakes it only tells me I have them and my tired brain can't find them on its own.

What our classrooms suffer from is a lag. The teachers aren't as tech savvy as they need to be. Certainly it's a natural turn of events as they are of another era. Schools will catch up in a few years.

And it's my belief that our education system has been reeling for decades from the effects of Mel and Norma Gabler. Don't know who they are? Just a couple in Texas who watered down the textbooks for a nation. Google them.

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?

Yes, I do agree and I think they've been obsolete for a very long time. The way we teach Math in America is not only boring but to a kid, seems like time wasted on learning something with no practical use. We'd be better served teaching math in a more practical, hands-on way. Teach kids math in the context of all the practical uses involved in it. Also schools need to stop changing the terminology used and methods for deriving solutions for problems. Often parents are accused of "lack of involvement" in their childrens educations when in fact the problem is we were taught math differently, using different terminology and methods for arriving at solutions to math equations. You have to read the entire Chapter before you can even attempt to help your kids with their math. The methods and terminology seems to change every couple years. If we teach our kids the methods we were taught, even if the answer is right, it's STILL wrong because they arrived at the answer using a different process.

Science is in the same boat. Kids respond better to hands on applications than dry theory and memorizing information. Applied concepts have a tendency to be remembered far better than abstract ones that are read about in a text book.

But the biggest problem I see is the cost of Higher education and how much time is spent on areas having nothing to do with the field of study students are pursuing. Many Americans would gladly go to College but it's too expensive and part of that expense is paying for a bunch of classes that have ZERO to do with their chosen careers. I understand the concept of a "well rounded education" but with the prices for taking umpteen courses unrelated to your career, you end up with many Americans getting no education at all. An educated workforce is vital and we need to address the costs of that and make it more available to Americans.

Do you see the contradiction in these two statements? A well-rounded education is one that creates people who are capable of learning on their own. The ability to respond to hands-on applications COMES FROM a thorough education.

I would submit the problem with our education system stems from a "results-based" approach. Bush went to Washington to spread this disease in which we care more about test results than truly educating. True education is creating lifelong learners--the kinds of folks who show up on America's Debate. He used the Texas model, which is not particularly effective in Texas, and then failed to adequately fund it! Nevertheless he continued to spread the mistaken idea that education is learning facts and has an end. Education should only end with death.

I'd like to add to what Aeshines said (May 22 post) and bobmcbob's comment (July 10) about a well-rounded education creating people cable of learning on their own.
Virginia began statewide standardized testing when George Allen was governor, our Standards of Learning testing program, so that when NCLB became law, VA was a bit ahead of the game...ours schools have been at this a while.
Throughout the years since SOL testing began, I have observed the administrators and teachers in our local school system building a common sense movement that has helped test scores steadily rise across the board...the major focus in teaching, remediation, and after-school tutoring has been shifted to READING. (Reading is also emphasized in classes other than English, and all teachers have been required to do professional development and take classes to help them become better "reading teachers" in their own particular subject areas.)
Many kids do poorly on standardized tests because they haven't mastered the reading level on which the tests are written. "Able readers" are capable of learning on their own. When schools do all they can to assure that students are "able readers", I believe the pressure to "teach-to- the-test" will be reduced for teachers, and they will be able to encourage more problem-solving and higher-thinking activities and have the time in their classrooms to facilitate these activities.

I'd just like to put in my two cents to agree that not all students should be pointed toward college. That's because not all jobs require a college degree, and not all students will WANT to secure one.

I have a high school diploma and a vocational school diploma, and have worked as a secretary for twenty-odd years. I never felt the lack of a degree harmed me any. I have always been able to find work and am satisfied with the career I have had.

If we make college degrees a baseline requirement, it will only lower the quality of the education comprising them. I like Ol Sarge's idea about different "tracks" in high schools. It makes sense to me.

Do you not see the contradiction in pricing higher education out of reach of the people who would otherwise utilise it? From personal experience, people are who they are. Some are more interested in the world around them, in numerous different subjects, ideas and concepts than some others are. Forcing people to take thousands of dollars worth of courses that don't pretain to their chosen career field does nothing to make them more curious or well rounded. It merely cuts down on the number of people that can afford higher education. I never needed college to make me more interested in any number of divergent interests. I tend to be curious about many different subjects and I persue them on my own, not because I was forced to take classes in them but because I'm a curious person by nature. I have friends with degrees and many of their "well rounded" educational experiences have done nothing to stimulate their interest, curiousity our pursuit of subject they weren't already interested or involved in. We are who we are and our personalities determine our level of interest in expanding our knowledge, not how many courses we are forced to take in college.

I agree strongly with you here Lin731, If we forced people to take courses that they dont want to take it would only be a waste of money for many people especially those that are struggling to get through college as it is. I don't think that someone trying to major in political science should be required to take physics or bio medicine. By forcing them to do things like that we would only be scaring people away from higher education not bringing them closer to it. If I were required to do such things I would take my chances without it entirely. So in short let them choose their path they'll be right no matter what it is.

If Bill Gates is truly concerned that Americans aren't getting a high-tech education,
he could donate several billion dollars to America's school districts to build his dream classrooms. Basically, he could put his money where his mouth is.

The answer to the second question is self explanatory. If he wants educated workers, he could make the investment and grant the necessary scholarships.



I don't claim to have the answers to America's education woes. One thing is for certain though. We need to get the Federal Government out of education. When that happens, the education system can cut the red tape and be ran by the parents once again.

I truly do not know what the answer is either. Our system is bad.

I believe you could dump all the money in the world into our educational system and nothing would change, until we as a culture value education again and parents put their childs education first. Put it behind sports, entertainment.
In countries like South Korea, Japan, China...they put education first and it shows.
Students respect their elders and teachers, something that is really lacking in our school systems. They are EXPECTED TO SUCCEED AND THEY DO. They set high scholastic goals and parents are instrumental in making this happen.

Money is not the answer. Better teacher education is needed as well.



"Poor Marks For U.S. Education System" CBS News, WEb ARticle

UNICEF rankings of educational systems in the world's richest countries, indicating the percentage of 14 and 15 year olds scoring below a minimum level in literacy, math and science.
1. South Korea 1.4 percent
2. Japan 2.2
3. Finland 4.4
4. Canada 5
5. Australia 6.2
6. Austria 8.2
7. Britain 9.4
8. Ireland 10.2
9. Sweden 10.8
10. Czech Republic 12.2
- (tie) New Zealand 12.2
12. France 12.6
13. Switzerland 13
14. Belgium 14
- (tie) Iceland 14
16. Hungary 14.2
- (tie) Norway 14.2
18. United States 16.2
19. Germany 17
- (tie) Denmark 17
21. Spain 18.6
22. Italy 20.2
23. Greece 23.2
24. Portugal 23.6

I have said this on other threads- I am pretty sure I am target spot on- on this issue- the problem is not with schools, funding, teachers or school boards. All other countries have some of these problems, if not all of them, and even worse than we have. Take Russia- a school system I know something about- and a few other third world countries that, when thier kids go to school, do better than us in school. They have very low pay for teachers- the schools are in a terrible state of repair, and the materials can be very old, if even they even have them at all- so why does Russian kids take calculus at 5th and 6th grade and such?

I think the answer is self evident- in no country in the world I have ever visited, not one, does the parents abdicate the responsibility of thier childrens education to the school system itself.

In America, the school system is basically free child care for 99% of parents. The parental involvement in thier childrens education is nil.

I went to a school board meeting out of curiosity over one of those "controversial" books- in a honor's level high school literture class. The students had a choice of books to read, but the popular one (can't remember what exactly it was) was fairly adult material- which, when you are talking about 17 and 18 year old honors students advanced literature class, seemed appropriate to me- it dealt with prostitution, the occult and the hard life in central america of several characters- I understand is was an incredible book, and the book realistic and dealing with adult subject matter in a serious manner.

A bunch of the local religious nuts (the usual suspects) were all up in arms over the book. - during the debate, one father was the main complaintent against the book- they were the fundamentalist christian types- and that his son "had" to read it.

Well, he didn't have to read it, he could have made another choice.

After listening to the usual drivel on this- I finally had to make a comment- I said "Hey, can you name me the last four books your kid had to read, say, even one of them, can you name me all of his teachers he has this semester, did you ever meet this teacher prior to this hearing"- guess what? this "concerned parent" couldn't do any of it- it wasn't until his child showed him the book that he had any clue!

This parent, a self described "family values conservative republican that doesn't like his kids exposed to this liberal crap"- had never, in the prior 11 years of education, taken the time to really understand anything about his childs education, until some hot button was pushed by his son.

We blame the teachers for this mess, we blame the teachers union for this mess, we blame the school board etc etc- the blame lies squarely on the parents shoulders in America- they need to stop treating the school system as thier personal baby sitter and start paying attention to thier childs education.

One of the reasons always cited in the reason that Language immersion schools do so well, as well as other "lottery choice" public schools (such as montessori, ABC etc) is because PARENT INVOLVMENT IS MANDATORY FOR THE SCHOOL TO SUCCEED- typically, with some exceptions, these schools operate with the same funding formula's as other schools- so extra money is required to be raised by the parents for these schools to maintain thier curriculum- so, there is some "buy in" of the school program by the parents- or the school fails.

American parents need to be taught how to raise thier children, the school system doesn't need the extra burden of raising thier children for them!

1. Do you agree with Bill Gates' assessment, that our high schools are obsolete? Why or why not?

Absolutely disagree- because, as i posted above, many schools in the world that are doing better than us are using "old, outdated" models of education that Bill mentioned- it is the parents that are making the difference.

2. In the article Gates suggests that the reasons behind the hiring or foreign born workers and outsourcing has to do with the education level of American workers (for white collar jobs anyway). Would outsourcing somehow be solved if our students were smarter and more prepared for the business world?

Well, yes. Look at Russia and India- you think they have better funded school systems than us? You think they are more modern than us? - but who are these outsourced computer jobs going too? -

Now- look at the parental involvement in education in those two countries- and you will find a glaring common denominator- the parents take 100% responsibility and control for thier child's education- and are more involved than the teachers themselves.

CrusingRam right on !!!! I totally agree with you.




I would like to make one comment about school vouchers and school choice.
Americans deserve the right to choose where their children get their education. Whether it be in private schools, or charter schools, they have the right to decide. We should not be forced to only have the option of public schools.
Even the teachers themselves know it because a large percentage send their children to private schools. Why?
Public education has failed. Maybe the majority of Americans do not buy into this but, teachers know the truth. I know the truth.
And in this day and age, when people and groups fight for the right to do and go where they want I find it odd that groups such as the ACLU do not find vouchers a valid option. They feel that vouchers pose a threat to the American system of public schools and the constitutional principle that government may not fund or promote religious education. All they see is the fact that vouchers would drain the public schools of money and that children would not be receiving the left wing liberal education the ACLU wants them to receive.

I know this is not a voucher discussion, however, I would like to tie them together to make this point. If we put the blame on the parents, where I think the majority of blame should be, we have to allow parents ways of fixing it. Whether it be to send their children to a charter school, private school, why should they be forced to send their children to public schools if they do not have faith in the system.

I have the right to decide somewhat the curriculum of my childrens education.
Maybe I do not want my child to recieve a religious education, sex education, liberal education, but then maybe I do. Maybe I want my kids to go to schools that are strict, that have tough rules, high ideals.
We have the choice in America to go to just about any doctor we want to go to. We have options and are not penalized for it.
In education we are. Are hands are tied especially if your poor.

The ACLU say religious schools would produce kids that would proselytize, they would promote schools that discriminate. They want to force all children into the public schools where they will receive left- wing liberal educations.
FORCE,,,,,,a word they do not like most arenas, yet they like it in this one.

Parents should be allowed to fix the problem. If you want them involved then you can't tie their hands and force them into doing what the state feels is the best for their children. I do not believe the state cares like a parents does. They will decide what is best for the masses.

Like CrusinRam said parents are a big slice of the problem. But looking beyond that, we have to allow parents the right to solve it, and that is freedom to send their children where they want to send them.

I however, do not want to go back to the old days when we taxed individuals and gave the money to the church- which is precisely what school vouchers do- they take tax money and give it to a church- there is no law against putting your child in a private school- just use your own dang money to do it- and furthermore- having attended a PACE Christian school myself- this is no panacea of learning- it is a place where they indoctrinate you in the church, brainwash you with thier world view- and generally fail in actually educating anyone- in other words, no better than the worst public schools have to offer- without the extra benefit of chemistry labs and sports

You have the right to send your kids to the school you want to- so use it, don't blame the goverment because you are too cheap to do it- just do it.

I had to make up four years of high school in one year of junior college because of my parents awful decision- and joined the army rather than attend that awful bob jones university.


The funny thing is- we always yap about communist countries indoctrination of thier children etc towards communism- when in fact, most of thier system was actually- you know, educating LOL

Public school systems work just fine all over the globe, and no country on the planet has what you are suggesting on any kind of scale- why not just copy what say, the number 1 or 2 most educated countries do? Why is that so hard for America? Because we would have to admit we are not the best at something and someone might have a better idea?

Finland is an excellent example- they had a horrible education system, so they improved their PUBLIC school system to the point they are the most literate country in the world- why don't we just copy them?

School vouchers are nothing more than a smoke screen for churches to recieve tax dollars without any responsibility.

Our ranking on that list is absolutely embarrassing. Our public schools are broken. They are pathetic. I know first hand.


Copy Finland in education? I say go for it.

....And lets copy Poland too.......abortion was once legal there, now its illegal and they have very few abortions.

If we did that, we would have more children sitting in desks at schools. One third more to be exact.

Parents need to wake up. They need to care enough in their children's education to DEMAND excellence from teachers and schools.
As it is now, parents don't care.

NO-- parents don't need to demand excellence from thier parents- just competence- the parents need to demand excellence from thier children- teachers should only have to present the information and do thier job - the same with the other 20+ kids in thier class- it is the parents responsibility to make sure that the kid is in the right frame of mind to learn and to be disciplined in school.

Teachers already have too much on thier plate besides teaching- right now, they are also raising our children- and the only time we notice is when they do something that goes against some personal pet peeve- like teaching gay rights or something equally horrible

It is the parents fault that teachers have to work so hard for so little-

You are still scapegoating teachers and such- the blame still truly falls on the parents in every part of the US education system.

After parents get thier collective acts together- then perhaps we can focus on the teachers education and such.

There are a great many countries that don't have some kind of silly extra teachers tests and stuff that some are trying to shove down teachers throats right now- some of the teachers are just barely more literate than the students they teach- but it doesn't matter- because the parents are facilitating the job of the teacher to teach- instead of the teacher facilitating the parents to raise thier child.

American High Schools are unique among world wide secondary schools. None of the other industrialized nations have them. Of course, Europe is struggling with large unassimilated Islamic populations with large numbers of young men who resent the non-Islamic majorities around them. At their core, American high schools are the real melting pots of American multi-culturalism. The fact that most young Islamic males in American consider themselves American Muslims rather than merely muslims in America is attributable to public high schools where both college bound and technical or trade school bound students of all religious and ethnic backgrounds mingle. In every other G-8 nation, secondary schools are divisive rather than unifying in nature. Students have to take exams to determine whether they will go to a University Prep school or to a Trade or Technical school and within those two broad separations there are many levels of schools all separated from one another by the tested skill levels of their students and the socio-economic status of their parents. Hence, the sons of Islamic immigrants in Britain have far less chance to become full participants in British life and culture than do their counterparts in America.

Does Bill Gates want us to become more like other G-8 nations who have a lot of worries over unassimilated minorities? The idea of a school that helps students to learn with students of a variety of ability levels and from a variety of ethnic and cultural backgrounds is very desirable to Americans and was a big part of the original design. European and Asian populations, on the other hand, were almost entirely homogenous back when secondary education was developed across the world. They did not need to assimilate young people from differing backgrounds into a single unified people, but now that they do, their schools prevent it from happening. Cultural assimilation is part of the design of American High Schools and a part we cannot afford to lose. It would be like trying to turn back the clock to before Brown versus Board of Education or 1957 and the Little Rock NIne. American cultural assimilation is a genie that only a fool wants back in the bottle in a post 9/11 world.

Also, because American High Schools are not just University Prep Schools, students have an array of post-high school objectives. And these varied objectives cut across all social and economic boundaries within high school populations. Thus, what appears to be a lack of focus to Bill Gates who is interested in only one sort of high school graduate is actually a multi-faceted focus that aims to meet the needs and goals of all types of students.

The real education evolution that is taking place, however, is not that high schools fail but that the needs of our society extend the amount of training needed beyond the limits of high school graduation at age 18. The nation really needs to realize that two years of community college have become the new threshold of being ready to enter the educated workforce, just as high school graduation once replaced eighth-grade graduation as the minimal threshold. Most high schools already aim all students who do not plan to attend a four-year university toward attending a community college. Thus, it is Bill Gates and not the high schools who is out of touch with the real educational needs of America.

Furthermore, we harm our children if we assume that every child must be trained to become a mathematician or a scientist. Our society would collapse under its own weight if that were the case and yet, everyone acts as if those two pursuits were the only important reasons for sending kids to school. How would we continue to enjoy all the art and entertainment of the media if we suddenly stopped training students in the Visual and Performing Arts? Our pioneer ancestors understood the need for art and entertainment while spreading across the west. The first time Shakespeare was performed in Utah, for example, was also the first night that Mormon pioneers slept in the territory, according to the directors of the Utah Shakespeare Festival in Cedar City, UT. And to this day, Utah, a relatively small state in population, does more with Visual and Performing Arts education than does California, the Mecca of modern art and entertainment.

The very diversity of instruction and of population in our high schools is part of what makes them vital to America and not an antiquated relic ready to be swept aside. That is why so much of our pop culture focuses on high school and the high school experience. High School is what puts the mix into our Multi-Cultural America. Take high schools out of the picture and the picture will soon come apart like an arch without its keystone.