Full Version: Illegal Poetry
Do you think that it is reasonable to prosecute an individual solely for expressing themselves through poetry or other artistic mediums if the message behind those expressions is violent and could be construed as intent to commit a crime or is this another case of criminalizing thought?
California high court to decide if student's poetry is criminal
California high court to decide if student's poetry is criminal
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In the boy's poem, he threatened to bring guns to school and kill students. His attorney, Michael Kresser, said the boy's prosecution was an exaggerated response to student attacks like the 1999 Columbine High bloodbath that left 15 people dead.
Kresser said Thursday that the poem was artistic self-expression and that George T. was prosecuted for thoughts, not actions.
"Freedom of speech and expression to express unpopular or disturbing thoughts is guaranteed by the First Amendment against all state action," Kresser said.
The high court did not indicate when it would hear the case.
In the poem, titled "Faces," he wrote: "I slap on my face of happiness but inside I am evil! For I can be the next kid to bring guns to kill students at school."
He gave the poem to at least two students, one of whom notified a teacher, who in turn called police. Authorities later found other works that read: "Probably I would be the next high school killer."
Kresser said Thursday that the poem was artistic self-expression and that George T. was prosecuted for thoughts, not actions.
"Freedom of speech and expression to express unpopular or disturbing thoughts is guaranteed by the First Amendment against all state action," Kresser said.
The high court did not indicate when it would hear the case.
In the poem, titled "Faces," he wrote: "I slap on my face of happiness but inside I am evil! For I can be the next kid to bring guns to kill students at school."
He gave the poem to at least two students, one of whom notified a teacher, who in turn called police. Authorities later found other works that read: "Probably I would be the next high school killer."
I am against designating speech/thought as a hate crime.
What this child needs is help - not incarceration. I don't see this as a judicial matter (except that a judge might compel the family to seek help for this child). It is a matter that needs professional intervention and help.
My only caveat would be, that so much of psychological intervention is dependent upon prescribing pills (anti-depressants, etc.) which, in my opinion, often exacerbates the problem. But that's another issue.
What this child needs is help - not incarceration. I don't see this as a judicial matter (except that a judge might compel the family to seek help for this child). It is a matter that needs professional intervention and help.
My only caveat would be, that so much of psychological intervention is dependent upon prescribing pills (anti-depressants, etc.) which, in my opinion, often exacerbates the problem. But that's another issue.
No, I do not think it is reasonable to prosecute an individual solely for expressing themselves through poetry or other artistic mediums. I think it is an unconstitutional outrage. Not much more to add to that, really.
And I would agree with Basheva's tangential observation as well: the Ritalin Generation, to me, marks the end of significant dissent in this country and the beginning of a nation of mindless drones. But, like she said, that's another issue...
And I would agree with Basheva's tangential observation as well: the Ritalin Generation, to me, marks the end of significant dissent in this country and the beginning of a nation of mindless drones. But, like she said, that's another issue...
There are a large number of teenagers (and adults as well), who have fantasized about, and even written about retaliating violently against bullies. The number of children who act out those fantasies, however, is incredibly small.
Stephen King, at the age of 17, wrote a story called "Rage", which similarly depicts a teen taking weapons to school, holding the class hostage, and so fourth... Should he have been arrested for writing it?
If however, you think that having a revenge fantasy is wrong, perhaps you should consider where the fantasy comes from in the first place. Having been in a position where I was bullied by the "A-crowd" through many of my years at school, I, too, had a great number of fantasies about getting back at them. Some of them were gruesome, to say the very least. Had the rules been enforced in the school, however, to prevent the perpetual harrassment and bullying I had to endure on a daily basis, I don't think I would have ever had a single fantasy about revenge. If somebody was beating you up on a daily basis, and you couldn't do anything about it, do you not think you would have a revenge fantasy?
As to the child in question in this case, I agree... He needs help. It is obvious to me that the faculty and staff at his school need to be more involved in monitoring students to prevent whatever sort of behavior is causing him to dream and write about retaliation.
Stephen King, at the age of 17, wrote a story called "Rage", which similarly depicts a teen taking weapons to school, holding the class hostage, and so fourth... Should he have been arrested for writing it?
If however, you think that having a revenge fantasy is wrong, perhaps you should consider where the fantasy comes from in the first place. Having been in a position where I was bullied by the "A-crowd" through many of my years at school, I, too, had a great number of fantasies about getting back at them. Some of them were gruesome, to say the very least. Had the rules been enforced in the school, however, to prevent the perpetual harrassment and bullying I had to endure on a daily basis, I don't think I would have ever had a single fantasy about revenge. If somebody was beating you up on a daily basis, and you couldn't do anything about it, do you not think you would have a revenge fantasy?
As to the child in question in this case, I agree... He needs help. It is obvious to me that the faculty and staff at his school need to be more involved in monitoring students to prevent whatever sort of behavior is causing him to dream and write about retaliation.
The student's rights are being violated. Period.
I wrote some pretty dark stuff while in the throws of adolescence (add old essence?) too. It's one way to get your yah-yahs out without causing harm to people, other than the sensitivities of English instructors and school administrators.
I wrote some pretty dark stuff while in the throws of adolescence (add old essence?) too. It's one way to get your yah-yahs out without causing harm to people, other than the sensitivities of English instructors and school administrators.
Not to say that I think this kid should have been prosecuted, but do you folks who think any speech is ok think it would be okay to verbally make threats upon the lives of other students or faculty?
Do you think that a verbal threat to one's life constitutes legal action?
If you think either of these would be an arrestable offense, I ask why it is ok to commit the same threats if written on paper and passed off as "art"?
Mike
Do you think that a verbal threat to one's life constitutes legal action?
If you think either of these would be an arrestable offense, I ask why it is ok to commit the same threats if written on paper and passed off as "art"?
Mike
No, I don't pass it off as art because it is written. (except when I write it - sorry couldn't resist). 
Seriously, when this kind of thing happens whether written or spoken by a child, that calls for professional intervention, but not incarceration.
Now, you asked Mike about legal action.....sometimes the intervention can come about through the means of legal action. An example would be when the family refuses to acknowledge that there may be a problem, a judge may have to compel intervention, such as psychiatric help or some kind of counseling. (Which as I said in another thread, also brings problems - but that's better than ignoring it.)
We have all had our dark moments of fantasizing revenge or power, but most of us learn to channel it. With a youngster this needs to be recognized and coping mechanisms taught, sending the younster to incarceration is not the answer. Although in severe cases the child might need a restraining envirnment until counseling can begin to affect outcome.
Seriously, when this kind of thing happens whether written or spoken by a child, that calls for professional intervention, but not incarceration.
Now, you asked Mike about legal action.....sometimes the intervention can come about through the means of legal action. An example would be when the family refuses to acknowledge that there may be a problem, a judge may have to compel intervention, such as psychiatric help or some kind of counseling. (Which as I said in another thread, also brings problems - but that's better than ignoring it.)
We have all had our dark moments of fantasizing revenge or power, but most of us learn to channel it. With a youngster this needs to be recognized and coping mechanisms taught, sending the younster to incarceration is not the answer. Although in severe cases the child might need a restraining envirnment until counseling can begin to affect outcome.
I don't think it's appropriate to prosecute a child for writing violent poetry, because it doesn't necessarily signify intent to act in a threatening manner. Poetry is, in fact, a very good way of channeling some of that negative energy.
It is appropriate, in my opinion, to pay closer attention to the child's psychological state after reading such poetry, because it could mean that the child is preparing to act on his thoughts or it could mean that the child is being tormented enough by his peers that he just feels like he needs to kill them in effigy on paper. Either way, this kid needs some attention, particularly love and acceptance, and maybe, psychological counciling.
Having been the victim of abuse in school and put through school counciling for it, I feel that this is often ineffective, because If you tell on someone in school or someone gets caught doing something to you and they get punished, it has a tendency to elevate the situation, at least in my experience. This doesn't mean that I think that teachers and support staff shouldn't step in, but I think that tolerance should be taught beginning at a very young age and continue throughout the entirety of a student's education so that less of these situations occur. They will never go away, because kids will be kids, but I think that they can be reduced.
No, not in the case of a teenager, because they are known to push the limits, and they are often embroiled in their own teen angst, meaning that things often come out more emotionally than they really are. There is a lack of maturity there that needs to be considered, and I think that while it is cause for increased awareness and attention, it is not something that should be prosecuted on its own.
It is appropriate, in my opinion, to pay closer attention to the child's psychological state after reading such poetry, because it could mean that the child is preparing to act on his thoughts or it could mean that the child is being tormented enough by his peers that he just feels like he needs to kill them in effigy on paper. Either way, this kid needs some attention, particularly love and acceptance, and maybe, psychological counciling.
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As to the child in question in this case, I agree... He needs help. It is obvious to me that the faculty and staff at his school need to be more involved in monitoring students to prevent whatever sort of behavior is causing him to dream and write about retaliation.
Having been the victim of abuse in school and put through school counciling for it, I feel that this is often ineffective, because If you tell on someone in school or someone gets caught doing something to you and they get punished, it has a tendency to elevate the situation, at least in my experience. This doesn't mean that I think that teachers and support staff shouldn't step in, but I think that tolerance should be taught beginning at a very young age and continue throughout the entirety of a student's education so that less of these situations occur. They will never go away, because kids will be kids, but I think that they can be reduced.
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Do you think that a verbal threat to one's life constitutes legal action?
No, not in the case of a teenager, because they are known to push the limits, and they are often embroiled in their own teen angst, meaning that things often come out more emotionally than they really are. There is a lack of maturity there that needs to be considered, and I think that while it is cause for increased awareness and attention, it is not something that should be prosecuted on its own.
Do you think that maybe the school is exercising "zero tolerance" for threats of school violence because they want to cover their butt against the chance of being sued by parents if, heaven forbid, this kid acts on these threats? What if the school just gave that boy a talking to, and let his threats pass as teen typical teen angst? What if that boy comes to school with an AR-15 and shoots a few kids? Do you actually think that the parents of the his victims wouldn't sue the school for not taking his threats more seriously and did everything in their power to ensure the safety of their students? I think this is a very prudent response to this boys violent threats in this day and age.
-Kisov
-Kisov
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Do you think that maybe the school is exercising "zero tolerance" for threats of school violence because they want to cover their butt against the chance of being sued by parents if, heaven forbid, this kid acts on these threats?
You are probably right about the reasoning behind the school's response, but it still doesn't mean that the situation was handled properly. The boy got 100 days in juvenille hall for words written on a piece of paper. I just think back to my days in high school and some of the thoughts that I entertained on paper, and I shudder at the thought that I could have been prosecuted for thoughts. I was angst ridden and I expressed it, but I would never have acted on my musings. It was merely a release for me. Perhaps, it is similar for this boy; perhaps not. Shouldn't there be further evidence that he is planning an assault, though?
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What if the school just gave that boy a talking to, and let his threats pass as teen typical teen angst? What if that boy comes to school with an AR-15 and shoots a few kids? Do you actually think that the parents of the his victims wouldn't sue the school for not taking his threats more seriously and did everything in their power to ensure the safety of their students? I think this is a very prudent response to this boys violent threats in this day and age.
Schools shouldn't necessarily ignore the behavior. That's not what I'm saying. They do need to be attentive to their students and protect the student body, but this case seems more like they are using this kid to make an example of him, and it just doesn't make sense to me to prosecute him on words alone, in poetry no less, which oftentimes serves as a metaphor for something larger. I wish that they would have posted the entire text of the poem in the article, because oftentimes, bits and pieces don't portray the entire meaning of the poem.
cyan- Very good points on all counts... I feel, too, that school intervention such as counselling, and increased attention to the student in question would have been sufficient. Jailing him for writing something is unconstitutional, plain and simple.
I agree the child who wrote the poetry needs help. Jailing him is not the answer. He wrote something. not acted on something. I do inderstand "Zero Tolerence". I think after Columbine you better pay attention to any kid who talks or writes about killing other kids. And zero tolerence means just that.These kids know about zero tolerence. I think a child who was in their right mind would write the poetry but not show it off to others knowing the consequences of zero tolerence. I think he is calling for help and this is the only way of showing it. A lot of people posted that they had wrote or felt like getting revenge. They never did anymore about it. Times are different now. Not just the columbine thing. Killings every day. There was columbine but here in Illinois there was the Brown's Chicken thing. So I think we have to take any thing seriously. But I am rambling. sorry! I agree get this kid some help and Jail is not the answer.
I once wrote a poem and put it on a motorcycle helmet. It was about the yearning to be free. It had a nightbird flying to no one place, etc.
Somebody in junior college (now a community college) copied the poem and brought it to a psych class. Prognosis? Schizoid.
My uncle, who happened to be in the class, had a fit. I was laughing my butt off upon hearing this tale.
It is a freaking POEM! Read Poe.
But hey, if you're 13 or so years old (okay, I was 19), how better to get attention and raise yourself among your peers?
I swear, the more I get older, the more I am ashamed to be an adult.
It was a poem. I put it on the helmet because it felt good. Besides, I borrowed heavily from Jimmie Hendrix. I was a hack. The "authorities" were poor excuses for clowns.
That's what the kids are seeing.
I don't know for sure, but this kid of the thread is screaming for attention, IMHO. Somebody needs to give it.
Somebody in junior college (now a community college) copied the poem and brought it to a psych class. Prognosis? Schizoid.
My uncle, who happened to be in the class, had a fit. I was laughing my butt off upon hearing this tale.
It is a freaking POEM! Read Poe.
But hey, if you're 13 or so years old (okay, I was 19), how better to get attention and raise yourself among your peers?
I swear, the more I get older, the more I am ashamed to be an adult.
It was a poem. I put it on the helmet because it felt good. Besides, I borrowed heavily from Jimmie Hendrix. I was a hack. The "authorities" were poor excuses for clowns.
That's what the kids are seeing.
I don't know for sure, but this kid of the thread is screaming for attention, IMHO. Somebody needs to give it.
QUOTE(Momof3 @ Jan 20 2003, 11:09 PM)
He wrote something. not acted on something.
By the time he does act on something, it's too late :/
Jailing him might not be the best answer, but.... when will the rights of the innocent victims to live their life, come before the rights of those who threaten it?
I wonder what kind of sign the Columbine killers gave away before they commited that heinous act. I wonder if they were allowed to so freely express themselves.
Or, How about the kid, who a year or so later, killed his parents one night, then shot up Thurston High School the next morning, only a few hours from my home, and the alma matter of a good friend of mine?
It's about time we start nipping this in the bud before someone gets killed. I would rather violate his rights NOW, than sacrifice another school child in the name of personal expression. Freedom of expression is not worth human life. If you want to sacrifice yourself for it, fine. But thos people he may or may not kill wouldn't get a choice now would they?
Jail him, counsil him, get him a shrink, I don't care....but do NOT and I reapeat do NOT let this go unnoticed or ignored. This is a text book cry for help.
--cheers
PS: threatening to kill someone is a crime, punishable by jailtime. For an adult anyway.
QUOTE(Digital Patriot @ Jan 22 2003, 10:00 PM)
It's about time we start nipping this in the bud before someone gets killed. I would rather violate his rights NOW, than sacrifice another school child in the name of personal expression. Freedom of expression is not worth human life. If you want to sacrifice yourself for it, fine. But thos people he may or may not kill wouldn't get a choice now would they?
You "would rather violate his rights NOW"?????? So you're saying that he has a right to express himself (as we all do, whether we're criminals or not), but you would choose to ignore his right. If we willingly violate his right, why not anyone else's? Where do we stop? Who defines what is threatening? BETTER CALL THE THOUGHT POLICE!
"Freedom of expression is not worth human life"? Hmm. How many people have died to ensure that we are able to enjoy the first ammendment? Scholars say the rights guaranteed in the constitution are fundamentally ensured by the maintenance of the first. How many countries fought wars to gain freedom? How many people have died so that others have the right to say what they want? You're saying it wasn't worth it?
Be very careful what rights you are willing to give up. You might find it extremely hard to get them back. I, for one, am not going to give them up for one measly high school kid writing bad poetry.
Digital I agree this should not be ignored, but you can't take a persons rights away for something he/she wrote. He/she did not commit a crime. He/she wrote poetry. You can't convict anyone and put them in jail for not doing anything. What are you going to put them in jail for? Writing poetry? Ridicules! 
QUOTE(Momof3 @ Jan 25 2003, 12:37 AM)
Digital I agree this should not be ignored, but you can't take a persons rights away for something he/she wrote. He/she did not commit a crime. He/she wrote poetry. You can't convict anyone and put them in jail for not doing anything. What are you going to put them in jail for? Writing poetry? Ridicules!
Not only is that rediculous but, look at hate crime laws. This person put down a thought...are they up NOW to be put in jail for hate? VERY dangerous ground here if we start convicting mere thought.
Darcaine
QUOTE(LFTHNDTHRDS @ Jan 24 2003, 05:44 PM)
How many countries fought wars to gain freedom? How many people have died so that others have the right to say what they want? You're saying it wasn't worth it?
No no no no no. Wars have been fought to protect our first amendment rights....your right. But no one puts a gun to your head to MAKE you join the military (except vietnam and the draft, but we weren't exactly fighting for our rights were we?) When you join the military, you do so voluntarily, and knowing full well that you MIGHT get killed in the line of duty.
Do school children go to school thinking they MIGHT get killed by a classmate? No, don't be silly.
The lives of this kids CLASSMATES are not worth sacrificing to protect HIS freedom of speech.
Call me selfish, but rights of victims or potential victims, mean more to me than rights of criminals....present or potential.
Also, this is not mere thought. This is the next step. He didn't just say something in the heat of the moment cause he was mad, he wrote it out....thought it out...wrote poetry....he took the time to put forth an effort to write this.
This is the stage where it NEEDS to be taken care of before I have to turn on the news and see the warzone that has become his school.
To hell with rights of criminals..... victims have rights too ya know....
--cheers
QUOTE(Momof3 @ Jan 24 2003, 10:37 PM)
Digital I agree this should not be ignored, but you can't take a persons rights away for something he/she wrote.
Since when am I removing his rights? Throwing him in jail or sending him to a shrink would remove his rights?
If I sent you a letter, and told you I was going to kill you....would you not consider that a threat, and call the police?
OH WAIT, it's freedom of expression right? I have a RIGHT to poetically write how much I hate you and how I would go about killing you.....right?
WRONG. You can be thrown in the jail for that.....
--cheers
PS: I don't really hate you. I was just trying to illustrate a point
QUOTE(Digital Patriot @ Jan 27 2003, 10:23 AM)
No no no no no. Wars have been fought to protect our first amendment rights....your right. But no one puts a gun to your head to MAKE you join the military (except vietnam and the draft, but we weren't exactly fighting for our rights were we?) When you join the military, you do so voluntarily, and knowing full well that you MIGHT get killed in the line of duty.
Do school children go to school thinking they MIGHT get killed by a classmate? No, don't be silly.
The lives of this kids CLASSMATES are not worth sacrificing to protect HIS freedom of speech.
Call me selfish, but rights of victims or potential victims, mean more to me than rights of criminals....present or potential.
Also, this is not mere thought. This is the next step. He didn't just say something in the heat of the moment cause he was mad, he wrote it out....thought it out...wrote poetry....he took the time to put forth an effort to write this.
This is the stage where it NEEDS to be taken care of before I have to turn on the news and see the warzone that has become his school.
To hell with rights of criminals..... victims have rights too ya know....
--cheers
Do school children go to school thinking they MIGHT get killed by a classmate? No, don't be silly.
The lives of this kids CLASSMATES are not worth sacrificing to protect HIS freedom of speech.
Call me selfish, but rights of victims or potential victims, mean more to me than rights of criminals....present or potential.
Also, this is not mere thought. This is the next step. He didn't just say something in the heat of the moment cause he was mad, he wrote it out....thought it out...wrote poetry....he took the time to put forth an effort to write this.
This is the stage where it NEEDS to be taken care of before I have to turn on the news and see the warzone that has become his school.
To hell with rights of criminals..... victims have rights too ya know....
--cheers
DP - When you start branding people as potential criminals based on the art that they are creating, you open up the possibility of branding many other people for thought crimes. For example, do you feel that professional screenwriters that depict violent scenes should be branded as "potential criminals?" What about writers like Stephen King? It takes a pretty grotesque imagination to come up with some of the images that are portrayed in the media, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person who is creating them is unbalanced.
It's is possible that this kid has some emotional problems that need to be worked out. Putting him away for expressing those ideas on paper (which is actually a positive release of negative energies that is used in professional therapy) is not going to fix the problem. If anything, the kid's emotional state is going to get worse while he's rotting in juvenille hall.
QUOTE(cyan @ Jan 27 2003, 10:48 AM)
Putting him away for expressing those ideas on paper (which is actually a positive release of negative energies that is used in professional therapy) is not going to fix the problem. If anything, the kid's emotional state is going to get worse while he's rotting in juvenille hall.
At least in Juvenile Hall, he won't be able to hurt or kill someone who's only crime was attending class.
The columbine killers showed signs before all that took place. No one did anything about it? Negligence? Protection of their freedom of speech? Whatever the case, no one did anything about the signs, and one day...they snapped
Forgive me for getting *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off enough to want to PREVENT columbine from happening AGAIN. Just because this kid might or might not actually do anything, doesn't mean the next one won't. By the time it happens, it's too late and someones dead.
--cheers
Oh, and about the whole movie director thing? Movie directors and producers are not using movie making as an outlet for their real feelings. If they were, then I say lock them up too, or get them some help.
I highly doubt the makers of Terminator series is really a violent man. But if he were, then proper action should be taken to prevent more innocent deaths.
This kid used poetry as an outlet for his TRUE thoughts. If he was kidding or joking around, it would be one thing. But it doen'st sound like he is....so it should be taken far more seriously.
Society will only get worse, Columbines will continue to happen, until one day we wake up, and realize that protecting criminals right of expression and murder, is not as important as protecting human life. Protect victims, not criminals
--cheers
I highly doubt the makers of Terminator series is really a violent man. But if he were, then proper action should be taken to prevent more innocent deaths.
This kid used poetry as an outlet for his TRUE thoughts. If he was kidding or joking around, it would be one thing. But it doen'st sound like he is....so it should be taken far more seriously.
Society will only get worse, Columbines will continue to happen, until one day we wake up, and realize that protecting criminals right of expression and murder, is not as important as protecting human life. Protect victims, not criminals
--cheers
QUOTE(Digital Patriot @ Jan 27 2003, 10:55 AM)
QUOTE(cyan @ Jan 27 2003, 10:48 AM)
Putting him away for expressing those ideas on paper (which is actually a positive release of negative energies that is used in professional therapy) is not going to fix the problem. If anything, the kid's emotional state is going to get worse while he's rotting in juvenille hall.
At least in Juvenile Hall, he won't be able to hurt or kill someone who's only crime was attending class.
The columbine killers showed signs before all that took place. No one did anything about it? Negligence? Protection of their freedom of speech? Whatever the case, no one did anything about the signs, and one day...they snapped
Forgive me for getting *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off enough to want to PREVENT columbine from happening AGAIN. Just because this kid might or might not actually do anything, doesn't mean the next one won't. By the time it happens, it's too late and someones dead.
--cheers
Right, the Columbine killers did show signs before the attacks, and no one did anything. Don't you think it would have been appropriate for the parents and the school to step in and offer help to those kids who were obviously having emotional difficulties getting through school? Perhaps it could have been prevented, and all of those lives, including the lives of Harris and Klebold could have been saved.
The Columbine killers targeted specific groups of people, because they had been constantly picked on and harassed. I'm willing to bet that the same situation applies to the kid who is on trial for writing violent poetry. My suggestion would be to remove this kid from the high school that he is attending, because it is obviously not a functional environment for him to get an education in, enroll him in an alternative school, get him into some constructive counciling, and get his parents involved, particularly in a positive dialogue, as opposed to the negative dialogue of: "You're bad. Don't do this. Don't do that. What's wrong with you?, etc."
I'll probably get harangued for this one, but ce la vie. Those kid's classmates' only crime is NOT just sitting in class. Obviously, this kid has been provoked by his school mates, meaning that they probably tease him on a daily basis. A person can only take so much emotional abuse before they start reacting in a negative manner. I'm not suggesting that his classmates' deserve to be responded to in a violent manner, but I am suggesting that schools make more of an effort to teach tolerance to those kids and to discipline, from a very young age, kids who tease other kids.
I TOTALLY agree Cyan. That is all I'm asking for...get him help, remove him from the school. And don't let him back into any school, until he is emotionally ready.
I would be in favor of throwing him in jail if and only if, there is no other way.
I'm not trying to advocate throwing him in jail and throwing away the key for life, without ever trying to understand. I get emotional about this subject, and if that is how my thoughts were interpreted, than I apologize.
However, we have a better chance of finding peace between Isreal and Palestine, than we do ridding the world of school yard bullies. Yes, he probably got picked on. That sucks. But it happens to all of us at one time or another. Like you said, they would not deserve his potentially violent wrath.
--cheers
I would be in favor of throwing him in jail if and only if, there is no other way.
I'm not trying to advocate throwing him in jail and throwing away the key for life, without ever trying to understand. I get emotional about this subject, and if that is how my thoughts were interpreted, than I apologize.
However, we have a better chance of finding peace between Isreal and Palestine, than we do ridding the world of school yard bullies. Yes, he probably got picked on. That sucks. But it happens to all of us at one time or another. Like you said, they would not deserve his potentially violent wrath.
--cheers
This is a sensitive subject. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is. On the one hand, the student's act of sharing this poem with a few classmates is a definite sign that there is trouble brewing. More so than if he had written the poem and made no attempt at secrecy - in other words, it would be considered more of a creative exercise if there had been no attempt to hide it, if it had been written and turned in as part of an assignment.
On the other hand, punishing the kid in some ways only furthers the sense of oppression he is obviously already feeling. In a way, it legitimizes the tormentors, while punishes his outlet of reaction, which at least so far has not been violence, but the fantasy of violence.
When I was a freshman in high school, I was a "punk." I had a mohawk and wore combat boots. One Friday night on my way home from a football game, I was jumped by 9 older kids from my school. In the process of having the s*** beat out of me, I escaped and ran home. I had my wrist cut with a knife, a black eye, and I knew I was lucky that was all. When the police, and later the administration, asked me if I knew who had done it, I said I didn't know them. The truth is, of course I knew who they were. I said nothing because I was afraid they would get a punishment, and then return to school, this time full of even more malice against me - the first crime had been one of circumstance, the second would be revenge and personal. No thanks. However, they certainly fueled many, many, revenge fantasies on my part, all of them violent.
I didn't write poems about it. I was always aware that what I felt was a fantasy, not something I was going to act upon. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they never bothered me again. I suppose I passed the test. I didn't talk.
How do we deal with this kind of a system? I know there are many kids out there who get bullied constantly, beat up, put down, insulted every day. Some of them snap, probably the ones with the least parental involvement in their lives. This kid needs to be spoken to, probably needs some counseling, but this should be done in the context of addressing the root of the problem, the bullies. Sure, everyone encounters a bully at some point, but for some kids, it is a constant and terrorizing presence in their lives. The real criminals are the kids who are allowed to get away with the violent physical and psychological dominating of other kids. Counseling and intervention in the schools should be focused largely on this population. They aren't the ones who usually snap and bring a gun to school. They are more likely to get away with ongoing bullying, and in turn aid the development of these "potential Columbines."
I understand one cannot eliminate bullies. They will always exist. They are usually kids acting out for lack of attention at home, or who through their family dynamics do not know how to deal with others except with force or the threat of force. But we should try. Someone should sit down with this young poet and say, "man, when I was in school, there were these guys I hated so much, I really wished at times they were dead. It made me so mad, they would pick on people, and get away with it, all the time." It might serve as a fruitful start of a conversation. This kid needs to be defused, but not in a way that says "your dreams of retribution are wrong and unwarranted. We will now punish you, as you have been "punished" by these bullies so often. Get used to it. You are bad."
On the other hand, punishing the kid in some ways only furthers the sense of oppression he is obviously already feeling. In a way, it legitimizes the tormentors, while punishes his outlet of reaction, which at least so far has not been violence, but the fantasy of violence.
When I was a freshman in high school, I was a "punk." I had a mohawk and wore combat boots. One Friday night on my way home from a football game, I was jumped by 9 older kids from my school. In the process of having the s*** beat out of me, I escaped and ran home. I had my wrist cut with a knife, a black eye, and I knew I was lucky that was all. When the police, and later the administration, asked me if I knew who had done it, I said I didn't know them. The truth is, of course I knew who they were. I said nothing because I was afraid they would get a punishment, and then return to school, this time full of even more malice against me - the first crime had been one of circumstance, the second would be revenge and personal. No thanks. However, they certainly fueled many, many, revenge fantasies on my part, all of them violent.
I didn't write poems about it. I was always aware that what I felt was a fantasy, not something I was going to act upon. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they never bothered me again. I suppose I passed the test. I didn't talk.
How do we deal with this kind of a system? I know there are many kids out there who get bullied constantly, beat up, put down, insulted every day. Some of them snap, probably the ones with the least parental involvement in their lives. This kid needs to be spoken to, probably needs some counseling, but this should be done in the context of addressing the root of the problem, the bullies. Sure, everyone encounters a bully at some point, but for some kids, it is a constant and terrorizing presence in their lives. The real criminals are the kids who are allowed to get away with the violent physical and psychological dominating of other kids. Counseling and intervention in the schools should be focused largely on this population. They aren't the ones who usually snap and bring a gun to school. They are more likely to get away with ongoing bullying, and in turn aid the development of these "potential Columbines."
I understand one cannot eliminate bullies. They will always exist. They are usually kids acting out for lack of attention at home, or who through their family dynamics do not know how to deal with others except with force or the threat of force. But we should try. Someone should sit down with this young poet and say, "man, when I was in school, there were these guys I hated so much, I really wished at times they were dead. It made me so mad, they would pick on people, and get away with it, all the time." It might serve as a fruitful start of a conversation. This kid needs to be defused, but not in a way that says "your dreams of retribution are wrong and unwarranted. We will now punish you, as you have been "punished" by these bullies so often. Get used to it. You are bad."
They should let the poor misguided poet read your post quarkhead, I think it eloquently addresses alot of schoolkid's problems.
Oh, and about not caring about "potential" criminal's rights:
Isn't everyone a potential criminal? Everyone has the capability to commit a crime. Some believe they have a reason, some would if they thought they could get away with it, and some might even commit crimes out of negligence. However, EVERYONE has the potential to become a criminal. Fortunately, we're not until we actually COMMIT a crime. Not talk about commiting one. Actually DO the DEED.
If they removed potential criminal's rights, we'd all be screwed.
Isn't there a quote something like "The quality of a society can be determined by the way it treats its criminals."?
Can anyone help with the quote/quoted?
Oh, and about not caring about "potential" criminal's rights:
Isn't everyone a potential criminal? Everyone has the capability to commit a crime. Some believe they have a reason, some would if they thought they could get away with it, and some might even commit crimes out of negligence. However, EVERYONE has the potential to become a criminal. Fortunately, we're not until we actually COMMIT a crime. Not talk about commiting one. Actually DO the DEED.
If they removed potential criminal's rights, we'd all be screwed.
Isn't there a quote something like "The quality of a society can be determined by the way it treats its criminals."?
Can anyone help with the quote/quoted?
I'm not sure about the quote, but it certainly fits with Zen, as well as with the teachings of Jesus. I would put it this way: The true character of a person is determined not by how he treats those he wishes to impress, but by how he treats the very least of his brethren.
QUOTE(LFTHNDTHRDS @ Jan 27 2003, 08:10 PM)
Oh, and about not caring about "potential" criminal's rights:
Isn't everyone a potential criminal? Everyone has the capability to commit a crime. Some believe they have a reason, some would if they thought they could get away with it, and some might even commit crimes out of negligence. However, EVERYONE has the potential to become a criminal. Fortunately, we're not until we actually COMMIT a crime. Not talk about commiting one. Actually DO the DEED.
If they removed potential criminal's rights, we'd all be screwed.
Isn't there a quote something like "The quality of a society can be determined by the way it treats its criminals."?
Can anyone help with the quote/quoted?
Isn't everyone a potential criminal? Everyone has the capability to commit a crime. Some believe they have a reason, some would if they thought they could get away with it, and some might even commit crimes out of negligence. However, EVERYONE has the potential to become a criminal. Fortunately, we're not until we actually COMMIT a crime. Not talk about commiting one. Actually DO the DEED.
If they removed potential criminal's rights, we'd all be screwed.
Isn't there a quote something like "The quality of a society can be determined by the way it treats its criminals."?
Can anyone help with the quote/quoted?
Yep, no crime has been commited. But if we wait around until a crime does happen, someones dead, and it's too late.
True, we all have the capability to commit a crime, but I don't think we all have the potential.
That poem was the next step, which follows personal thought. He put it out on paper. Time to yank him from society, in one way or another, and get him some help before he kills someone.
--cheers
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