Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Israel-Palestine
America's Debate > Archive > Assorted Issues Archive > [A] International Debate
Google
liberaldude81
I was recently reading up on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and noticed that there has been much debate on Jerusalem. Israel claims Jerusalem, but it is actually Palestine's.

Questions for debate:
Should Jerusalem become an independent city, like Vatican City?

If yes, do you believe Israel will turn over the land?
Google
apa med fez
i believe israel should become a country for palestinians and israelis. i don't think creating a new country is necessary, the problem is though that the seperation between the two groups are becoming bigger and that the problem will be solved is becoming smaller.
liberaldude81
QUOTE
i believe israel should become a country for palestinians and israelis. i don't think creating a new country is necessary, the problem is though that the seperation between the two groups are becoming bigger and that the problem will be solved is becoming smaller.


This doesn't solve the problem. The problem will never be solved unless Palestine gets their own country. Until that time, Palestine will never be happy. They want land they can call their own.
Hobbes
QUOTE(apa med fez @ Apr 13 2005, 04:56 AM)
i believe israel should become a country for palestinians and israelis. i don't think creating a new country is necessary, the problem is though that the seperation between the two groups are becoming bigger and that the problem will be solved is becoming smaller.
*



This would be extremely tricky. There are far more Palestinians than there are Israelis. So, following democratic concepts, this would either convert Israel into another Arab state (something most Israeli's are understandably against), or Palestinians would have greatly diminished voting rights. Neither of these alternatives is really workable long-term.
Ultimatejoe
QUOTE
i believe israel should become a country for palestinians and israelis. i don't think creating a new country is necessary, the problem is though that the seperation between the two groups are becoming bigger and that the problem will be solved is becoming smaller.


I suppose that is a solution... except for the fact that Palestinians don't want it, Israelis don't want it, and there is no feasible way to do that.

I'm curious; how exactly did you think that such a plan would work?
apa med fez
the reason why i think that israel could become a country for both israelis and palestinians is based upon the thought that if people tolerate eachother, they can live with eachother. if this is to happen, the integration has to start soon as i said before the gap between the groups is becoming bigger.
loreng59
QUOTE(Hobbes @ Apr 13 2005, 09:35 AM)
QUOTE(apa med fez @ Apr 13 2005, 04:56 AM)
i believe israel should become a country for palestinians and israelis. i don't think creating a new country is necessary, the problem is though that the seperation between the two groups are becoming bigger and that the problem will be solved is becoming smaller.
*



This would be extremely tricky. There are far more Palestinians than there are Israelis. So, following democratic concepts, this would either convert Israel into another Arab state (something most Israeli's are understandably against), or Palestinians would have greatly diminished voting rights. Neither of these alternatives is really workable long-term.
*

Since when are there more 'Palestinians' than Israelis??? It is the other way around. Israelis out number the 'Palestinians' by about 2 to 1.

The fact is neither side wants the other's residents.

Israel was founded as a Jewish state and I have very serious doubts as to their changing it.

Should Jerusalem remain in Israeli hands? The only time that people have ever been totally restricted from going to Jerusalem was when it was under Jordanian control and they ethically cleansed the majority residents and destroyed hundreds of places of worship.

As for if the world thinks this a good idea, then there will be a need for a very large military force to make it happen since there will be millions of armed Israelis that will fight that idea. Jerusalem is the heart and sole of the Jewish people. It has a much meaning to Jews as Mecca does to Muslims. This one idea, if carried out will result in the deaths of tens of millions of people, has to be one of the worst ideas ever proposed.
Ptarmigan
QUOTE
Since when are there more 'Palestinians' than Israelis??? It is the other way around. Israelis out number the 'Palestinians' by about 2 to 1.


According to the CIA World Factbook:
Gaza Strip = 1325000 Palestinians
annual birth rate - death rate = 36.67 per 1000 population. (i.e. 3.67% inc per yr)
West Bank = 2311000 Palestinians
abr-adr = 29.14 per 1000 (2.91 inc per yr)

Israel (inc settlers in above areas) = 6200000
Birth rate - death rate = 12.26 per 1000 (1.23% inc per year)

On top of that , net annual migration into Palestine is roughly 2 per 1000 and net migration into Israel is 0.7 per 1000. However I am not very sure what this number signifies...

So 2:1 looks about right.

However, the net rate of population increase of Palestinians looks to be around 2.5 to 3 times higher than that of Israelis. So doing the math suggests that the ratio will be at 1:1 in 30-40 years, depending on what figures you use...and birth / death rates do tend to be stable over the long term...

So there is a definite need to sort out the situation before then, because sooner or later, unless Israel becomes two countries, Palestinians are going to have to be given a proper say in the running of the country in which they are going to be the majority. I have no idea who 'by rights' should get what, but I think that changing demographics are going to start becoming an increasingly relevant issue.

loreng59
Okay, let's see:
Number of 'Palestinian' refugees is 3.7 million (UN), Israel is 6.78 million (Israeli census)
'Palestinian birth rate' 3.1% (UN again), Israeli 4.8% (Israeli Health Min.).

We could also look up death rates, and immigration, but that would show that the 'Palestinian' death rate is higher than Israel's and that there has been a statically zero immigration for those areas as well. The same can not be said for Israeli immigration.

About the only way that the 'Palestinians' are ever going to exceed Israel's population is if Israelis stop having children and there is no immigration to Israel, neither scenario is very likely.
Ptarmigan
Loreng

I don't automatically dispute your figures, however it is odd that the birthrate that the Israel ministry is so different to the ones listed in the CIA World Factbook.

So - my figures come from this link:
CIA World Factbook, Israel
CIA WFB West Bank
&
CIA WFB Gaza Strip

The US census bureau also has a global database that supports the figures the CIA are using (its probably the same data)
US Census Bureau, Demographic Data

Our current population figures (6 mill and 3 mill) seem to agree, but we seem to have come up with very different birth rates.

So, if we use your birth rate figures - then the Israeli population is already twice that of the Palestinian population with a much higher birth rate, so the Israeli population will probably be triple that of the Palestinian population in about a decade or so. In which case there isn't much to debate really.

My figures suggest that the opposite is true - that the Palestinians will end up outnumbering the Israelis, hence the need for Israel to come up with a solution right now whilst it still has twice the population.

Generally I am neutral on the issue - I don't live there and I certainly don't agree with Palestinian terrorism, but then I also think that the status quo is untenable in the long run and that the Palestinians will have to be given a viable state of their own.

Okay, for arguments sake, lets suppose that my figures are closer to the truth and that the Palestinian's will outnumber Israeli's in about 40 or so years time. What do you think the best way for the Israeli government to deal with this would be?
Google
loreng59
I can not answer for the CIA. They seem to march to a different set of 'facts' on the MiddleEast. I have rarely found their figures to be even in the same ballpark. At best what they publish is usually years out of date. The UN figures are just a suspect because nobody has ever moved from the territories, nor has anybody ever died and been removed from the rolls. If the 'Palestinians' have 3 million people it is only on paper. They also include in that figure Arabs not living there to the tune of more than 200,000. The real figure is most likely nearer to 2 million and the birth rate may even be lower than that.

The solution is simple there is a 'Palestinian' state and has been one since they got 78% of the original 'Palestine' mandate territory and they should be deported as illegal aliens. That would be the only 'just' solution but barring that since that is not going to happen none of the solutions are going to work at this point.

Arab terrorism has continued with the assistance of countries like Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt without let up. The PA has yet to fulfill any of their obligations and the US is now demanding that Israel be divided into two separate countries. A solution there is none. War will happen and thousands will die.
SirAjh
I do not think this is an issue having to deal with Isreal and Palestine entirely. Their are many other arabian states. I find it unfortunate those states do not welcome the Palestinians with welcome arms. Instead, most of them teach their children to hate Isreal instead of helping the Palestinians themselves.
Ptarmigan
QUOTE
do not think this is an issue having to deal with Isreal and Palestine entirely. Their are many other arabian states. I find it unfortunate those states do not welcome the Palestinians with welcome arms. Instead, most of them teach their children to hate Isreal instead of helping the Palestinians themselves


Well there are about 3 million Palestinians...Whilst there are other Arab states, neither individually or combined could they handle 3 million refugees very easily.

Secondly different Arab peoples don't feel that much kinship (in much the same way that different Caucasian nations don't). Whilst Arab nationalism has been an ideological stance held by a few dictators, it hasn't really taken hold amongst different arab peoples.

(I suppose you could say that Canadians and Americans are ethnically similar, yet if the entire of Canada emigrated to America, Americans might be a little peeved off...! Not the best analogy though...)

I think that a two state solution is the best available option at the moment. Provided a Palestinian state can be stabilised (through international intervention) enough not to descend into terrorist ruled anarchy of course...
SirAjh
I wouldn't mind if all the canadians moved here.

We are America, and I feel anyone should be allowed to live here.

But obviously, if you look at the middle-east, Israel is very tiny. It does not take up much space. Obviously, those 3 million refuges would probably be better off with people that share their religon and ideals, then live in limbo-land where bombs are constantly going off.

How did the Palestine refugees leave Israel anyway? I am not sure, but If I recall didn't they all flee because the 6 infamous Arab nations told them too before they invaded Israel and lost?

I do not feel those people could find a suitable home in Israel considering all the violence that is going on and the hatred in their hearts.

This is a simplified version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.