Full Version: Patty Murray-Democrat/Anti-America
SEN. Patty Murray, democrat from Washington state, pride of the Northwest, has been quoted as saying Osama Bin Laden built roads, hospitals, schools for Afghanistan. SHe also said that he attacked AMerica because of our anti-muslim, anti-arab policies. Nevermond that she is a liar and all her statements have been proven untrue. The story is that she represents the Democratic party, she thinks like all democrats do. THe democratic party is anti-american, pro-terrorist. I just wish people like here would leave America and go to Iran or Iraq where things are so great. Please will a liberal out there explain why you choose people like this to represent you?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75114,00.html
Go to this link for Patty Murray's comments on Bin Laden
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75114,00.html
Go to this link for Patty Murray's comments on Bin Laden
HeatherRob, Do you have a link with a transcript of what SEN. Pat Murray said?
QUOTE(HeatherRob @ Jan 20 2003, 04:50 PM)
SEN. Patty Murray, democrat from Washington state, pride of the Northwest, has been quoted as saying Osama Bin Laden built roads, hospitals, schools for Afghanistan. SHe also said that he attacked AMerica because of our anti-muslim, anti-arab policies. Nevermond that she is a liar and all her statements have been proven untrue. The story is that she represents the Democratic party, she thinks like all democrats do. THe democratic party is anti-american, pro-terrorist. I just wish people like here would leave America and go to Iran or Iraq where things are so great. Please will a liberal out there explain why you choose people like this to represent you?
I addressed this article in the biased news debate...after that pretty much made the point about the media.
Case, point and match.
Darcaine
HeatherRob:
How about instead of making blanket statements against all Democrats and Liberals, you post something to back up your opinions? Don't presume to think that you could possibly know what I think about any given issue, or whom I support or don't support. Unless you've somehow learned to read minds, you have only conjecture on your side.
To suggest, as you did, that everybody who disagrees with you leave the country, is simply outrageous, and statements like this have no place in any forum of intelligent debate. I think you would do better to stick to the Yahoo! MB's where generalized views that lack factual basis are more readily accepted. In case you hadn't noticed... We're not big on attacking each other here. We're more interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty of issues, and learning the FACTS, and how they shape our personal opinions.
I'm familiar with the speech that Patty Murray made, and here is the LINK to the transcript of her ACTUAL statements, and not what everybody SAYS that she said. I think if you read the whole thing, and actually put some thought behind what she said, which she declared from the beginning as being "HIGHLY DEBATABLE", you may see things in a new light.
Ms. Murray was merely suggesting why she thinks that OBL is so popular in the middle-east. She suggested nothing about somehow admiring what he's accomplished, or in any way supporting anything he's ever done.
She suggested alternatives to war to further the American agenda, and gain more support in the Middle East, as well. Heaven forbid anybody should speak out against WAR!
That being said, HeatherRob, I'm going to ask you to PLEASE back up your statements here with some facts.
What statements that she made were proven untrue, and by whom? Any sources?
Quoted by whom? SOURCE?
How about instead of making blanket statements against all Democrats and Liberals, you post something to back up your opinions? Don't presume to think that you could possibly know what I think about any given issue, or whom I support or don't support. Unless you've somehow learned to read minds, you have only conjecture on your side.
To suggest, as you did, that everybody who disagrees with you leave the country, is simply outrageous, and statements like this have no place in any forum of intelligent debate. I think you would do better to stick to the Yahoo! MB's where generalized views that lack factual basis are more readily accepted. In case you hadn't noticed... We're not big on attacking each other here. We're more interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty of issues, and learning the FACTS, and how they shape our personal opinions.
I'm familiar with the speech that Patty Murray made, and here is the LINK to the transcript of her ACTUAL statements, and not what everybody SAYS that she said. I think if you read the whole thing, and actually put some thought behind what she said, which she declared from the beginning as being "HIGHLY DEBATABLE", you may see things in a new light.
Ms. Murray was merely suggesting why she thinks that OBL is so popular in the middle-east. She suggested nothing about somehow admiring what he's accomplished, or in any way supporting anything he's ever done.
She suggested alternatives to war to further the American agenda, and gain more support in the Middle East, as well. Heaven forbid anybody should speak out against WAR!
That being said, HeatherRob, I'm going to ask you to PLEASE back up your statements here with some facts.
QUOTE
Nevermond that she is a liar and all her statements have been proven untrue.
What statements that she made were proven untrue, and by whom? Any sources?
QUOTE
SEN. Patty Murray, democrat from Washington state, pride of the Northwest, has been quoted as saying Osama Bin Laden built roads, hospitals, schools for Afghanistan. SHe also said that he attacked AMerica because of our anti-muslim, anti-arab policies.
Quoted by whom? SOURCE?
One thing I found amusing in her speech was that she said OBL was building, among other things, daycare centers.
HUH???
I didn't think a totalitarian, fundamentalist regime that did not allow women to work or go to school would have a huge need for daycare centers.........but maybe I'm wrong.
HUH???
I didn't think a totalitarian, fundamentalist regime that did not allow women to work or go to school would have a huge need for daycare centers.........but maybe I'm wrong.
QUOTE(Stefan Fargus @ Jan 20 2003, 10:42 PM)
HeatherRob:
How about instead of making blanket statements against all Democrats and Liberals, you post something to back up your opinions? Don't presume to think that you could possibly know what I think about any given issue, or whom I support or don't support. Unless you've somehow learned to read minds, you have only conjecture on your side.
To suggest, as you did, that everybody who disagrees with you leave the country, is simply outrageous, and statements like this have no place in any forum of intelligent debate. I think you would do better to stick to the Yahoo! MB's where generalized views that lack factual basis are more readily accepted. In case you hadn't noticed... We're not big on attacking each other here. We're more interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty of issues, and learning the FACTS, and how they shape our personal opinions.
How about instead of making blanket statements against all Democrats and Liberals, you post something to back up your opinions? Don't presume to think that you could possibly know what I think about any given issue, or whom I support or don't support. Unless you've somehow learned to read minds, you have only conjecture on your side.
To suggest, as you did, that everybody who disagrees with you leave the country, is simply outrageous, and statements like this have no place in any forum of intelligent debate. I think you would do better to stick to the Yahoo! MB's where generalized views that lack factual basis are more readily accepted. In case you hadn't noticed... We're not big on attacking each other here. We're more interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty of issues, and learning the FACTS, and how they shape our personal opinions.
I did include the link to get Murray treasonous statements. Interesting how liberals rush to cry about Trent Lott's views, but now the shoe is on the other foot. Murray backtracked as soon as her statements got out, because she knew she was wrong. She is the kind of politician that hides her true views to get elected(Bill Clinton disciple), then once elected she shows her true colors. Her half truths epithomize the liberal view, of AMerica as the enemy and poor Bin Laden, we made him do the things he does. For so long we conservatives have let liberals control the debate, now that we are out from under the foot of the liberal media thanks to Fox News and a few others things will be different. Liberals who aren't used to being challenged with be challenged. I see that you are from Massachusetts StephenFargus, so that means Ted Kennedy and John Kerry represent you. Kerry is a serviceble party hack, definitely not Presidential timber. But Kennedy, a man who let a woman drowned after he drove her into the water, then covered it up, well I can see how you don't want me to bring up things like that. According to you that is mean spirited. All I ask for is some fiesty dialogue. Don't be shy about taking me to task for some conservative politicians failures, I'll own up to them
I'm going to decline any further debate with you, HeatherRob, as you clearly have no interest whatsoever in doing anything but sling mud. When you're ready to have a serious debate, I may change my mind. For now, I will ignore every post you make, and I hope that you will do the same for me. Thank you, and have a nice day.
I just finished reading the full transcript that Stefan posted, and while I think that some of her information is inaccurate, I certainly don't see her statements as being treasonous. I also don't interpret them as being anti-american or in support of terrorism. It seems to me that she was more encouraging the students to question the reasons why the muslim world is supporting Osama Bin Laden. That is not an unreasonable question to ask.
For the record, I felt the same way about the Trent Lott situation. I think people have tendency to over-react and misinterpret.
For the record, I felt the same way about the Trent Lott situation. I think people have tendency to over-react and misinterpret.
QUOTE(cyan @ Jan 20 2003, 11:13 PM)
I just finished reading the full transcript that Stefan posted, and while I think that some of her information is inaccurate, I certainly don't see her statements as being treasonous. I also don't interpret them as being anti-american or in support of terrorism. It seems to me that she was more encouraging the students to question the reasons why the muslim world is supporting Osama Bin Laden. That is not an unreasonable question to ask.
For the record, I felt the same way about the Trent Lott situation. I think people have tendency to over-react and misinterpret.
For the record, I felt the same way about the Trent Lott situation. I think people have tendency to over-react and misinterpret.
That's fair. Perhaps I'm too harsh. But you must see the hypocrisy in the way Trent Lott was treated, and the way the media failed to report the Murray remarks. I mean, the guy built roads, to terror training camps, he built hospitals, for terrorists. For someone in her position that has access to much more information than me to make those statements is unexcusable. It makes me question her intelligence, her motives. Where she asks that we should understand why terrorists act the way they do, I would ask why aren't Bin Laden's efforts directed at feeding children, supporting women's rights, wanting free elections for Arabs. Senator Murray should resign.
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That's fair. Perhaps I'm too harsh. But you must see the hypocrisy in the way Trent Lott was treated, and the way the media failed to report the Murray remarks.
Yes, that I do see.
QUOTE
I mean, the guy built roads, to terror training camps, he built hospitals, for terrorists. For someone in her position that has access to much more information than me to make those statements is unexcusable. It makes me question her intelligence, her motives. Where she asks that we should understand why terrorists act the way they do, I would ask why aren't Bin Laden's efforts directed at feeding children, supporting women's rights, wanting free elections for Arabs.
Yes, those are good questions too, HeatherRob, but it doesn't mean that her questions aren't good on their own. She was trying to get students to think critically and look at different angles of the problem. She should have researched her facts better, I won't argue with you there, and I have a feeling that perhaps she got Bin Laden & Al Quaida confused with groups like Hamas who actually do charity and humanitarian work in addition to functioning as a terrorist organization. She also failed to mention the aid that the U.S. has sent to Afghanistan.
QUOTE
Senator Murray should resign.
I don't really think it's serious enough to request resignation, and I don't think Trent Lott should have resigned either.
QUOTE
He's been out in these countries for decades building roads, building schools, building infrastructure, building day care facilities, building health care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. It made their lives better.
Well, maybe he has been helping out the Muslim world. He is from a wealthy family, and the way you win people's hearts is with helping out, not bombing them. She is absolutely right on this point. You probably don't win a lot of hearts by supporting suppressive regimes when it suits your political agenda du jour.
She was addressing high school students, so I suppose a lot of these students will now do research on whether bin laden actually funded any of this stuff. I just don't know, but I do know what works to get people on your side.
It isn't force.
Do I get my ticket to New Zealand now? I'm becoming bored with conservative hyperbole in the US.
QUOTE(HeatherRob @ Jan 20 2003, 05:59 PM)
I did include the link to get Murray treasonous statements.
Yes, you added that in later. Misleading don't you think?
QUOTE(HeatherRob @ Jan 20 2003, 05:59 PM)
I see that you are from Massachusetts StephenFargus, so that means Ted Kennedy and John Kerry represent you. Kerry is a serviceble party hack, definitely not Presidential timber. But Kennedy, a man who let a woman drowned after he drove her into the water, then covered it up, well I can see how you don't want me to bring up things like that.
How about not bringing that up here because it is WAY off topic?
QUOTE(HeatherRob @ Jan 20 2003, 06:25 PM)
That's fair. Perhaps I'm too harsh. But you must see the hypocrisy in the way Trent Lott was treated, and the way the media failed to report the Murray remarks. I mean, the guy built roads, to terror training camps, he built hospitals, for terrorists. For someone in her position that has access to much more information than me to make those statements is unexcusable. It makes me question her intelligence, her motives. Where she asks that we should understand why terrorists act the way they do, I would ask why aren't Bin Laden's efforts directed at feeding children, supporting women's rights, wanting free elections for Arabs. Senator Murray should resign.
Why didn't you say it that way in the first place? This is a much better way to start a healthy debate than blanket statements and broad generalizations.
After 'hashing it out' with HeatherRob in PM, I've agreed to return to the debate here, provided the mud-slinging stops.
I'm going to be brief with this initial post, as I have to be going soon, but I have a question that I really need to post here. Where in Patty Murray's statement did you find this, or a similar quote:
I saw nothing even remotely similar to this in her statement, so if you could back that particular one up with a source which quotes her directly, and not something that presumes to translate what she said, I'd appreciate it.
I also fail to understand how this issue is akin to the Lott issue, other than the fact that both have been blown completely out of proportion. THAT, I will agree to.
I'm going to be brief with this initial post, as I have to be going soon, but I have a question that I really need to post here. Where in Patty Murray's statement did you find this, or a similar quote:
QUOTE
SHe also said that he attacked AMerica because of our anti-muslim, anti-arab policies.
I saw nothing even remotely similar to this in her statement, so if you could back that particular one up with a source which quotes her directly, and not something that presumes to translate what she said, I'd appreciate it.
I also fail to understand how this issue is akin to the Lott issue, other than the fact that both have been blown completely out of proportion. THAT, I will agree to.
QUOTE(Jaime @ Jan 21 2003, 12:07 AM)
Why didn't you say it that way in the first place? This is a much better way to start a healthy debate than blanket statements and broad generalizations.
Fargus and I came to an agreement and I have promised to be more focused in my posts. One of my goals was to highlight Murray's odious comments in my topic starter. But another was to show the way liberals tend to get a free ride, while conservatives, like Lott are villified. Much the same way former President Clinton escaped unscathed from his many affairs and indiscretions, yet Oregon Senator Bob Packwood was forced to resign, under much pressure from women's groups. Where was the outcry over Clinton's womanizing, where was NOW and Hollywood? I like a fair fight as much as the next guy, and I try to even it out here. I want to believe liberals love America, support our way of life, sometimes it is hard to see it though.
QUOTE(Stefan Fargus @ Jan 20 2003, 07:14 PM)
After 'hashing it out' with HeatherRob in PM, I've agreed to return to the debate here, provided the mud-slinging stops.
I'm going to be brief with this initial post, as I have to be going soon, but I have a question that I really need to post here. Where in Patty Murray's statement did you find this, or a similar quote:
I saw nothing even remotely similar to this in her statement, so if you could back that particular one up with a source which quotes her directly, and not something that presumes to translate what she said, I'd appreciate it.
I also fail to understand how this issue is akin to the Lott issue, other than the fact that both have been blown completely out of proportion. THAT, I will agree to.
I'm going to be brief with this initial post, as I have to be going soon, but I have a question that I really need to post here. Where in Patty Murray's statement did you find this, or a similar quote:
QUOTE
SHe also said that he attacked AMerica because of our anti-muslim, anti-arab policies.
I saw nothing even remotely similar to this in her statement, so if you could back that particular one up with a source which quotes her directly, and not something that presumes to translate what she said, I'd appreciate it.
I also fail to understand how this issue is akin to the Lott issue, other than the fact that both have been blown completely out of proportion. THAT, I will agree to.
You have to be kidding me. You know....repeating sigh..Hitler was a GREAT MAN. He took a country from nothing to a world power in a matter of years. Created jobs, built infrastructure, and destroyed any opposition party. Sounds like a Democrats wet dream if you ask me.
I don't think that after WWII you would find many saying nice things about Hitler. This should also be about OBL. I find the lack of anyone with a reasonble intellect disturbing. Trent Lott made reference to a man running for President. OBL kills Americans and a US Senator say that he did good things..although she failed to mention that his familly is a construction company and all those buildings were only for his followers and of course...no females.
Darcaine
AuthorMusician: New Zealand..don't bother they won't let you in unless you contribute to their society in some way...and from what I've read...don't bother.
Darcaine,
They love musicians with that swing.
See yah.
They love musicians with that swing.
See yah.
QUOTE
You have to be kidding me. You know....repeating sigh..Hitler was a GREAT MAN. He took a country from nothing to a world power in a matter of years. Created jobs, built infrastructure, and destroyed any opposition party.
Right. That's why the people of Germany supported him. That's exactly what Senator Murray was trying to indicate with her statements about Osama Bin Laden, IMO. It doesn't mean that we should support him. It just means that there is a reason why he has support in that region. The problem is that her reasons for stating that he has support are not necessarily accurate.
Her facts were in error, but that doesn't mean that her goal in saying them was inherently bad.
Well, Hitler was quite a guy. He was a real spectacular orator. Gassed in WWI, he never used gas in WWII. Killed a lot of innocent people--must have been insane, like the Japanese in China, who did worse. Hitler read a lot, way more than I do, and way more than "normal" people do. He had a genius that transcended humankind!
And so we got Aschwitz and others.
Being smart does not necessarily lead to being responsible.
The people have to be smarter than our leaders. I am proud to be among those who question motives and state truthfully what is on our minds. I support this speech if for no other reason, somebody has to use a "pulpit" to raise a stink.
Our security depends upon it. Freedom of Speech.
And so we got Aschwitz and others.
Being smart does not necessarily lead to being responsible.
The people have to be smarter than our leaders. I am proud to be among those who question motives and state truthfully what is on our minds. I support this speech if for no other reason, somebody has to use a "pulpit" to raise a stink.
Our security depends upon it. Freedom of Speech.
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 20 2003, 08:45 PM)
Darcaine,
They love musicians with that swing.
See yah.
They love musicians with that swing.
See yah.
LOL...what instrument do you play?
Darcaine
QUOTE(cyan @ Jan 20 2003, 09:52 PM)
QUOTE
You have to be kidding me. You know....repeating sigh..Hitler was a GREAT MAN. He took a country from nothing to a world power in a matter of years. Created jobs, built infrastructure, and destroyed any opposition party.
Right. That's why the people of Germany supported him. That's exactly what Senator Murray was trying to indicate with her statements about Osama Bin Laden, IMO. It doesn't mean that we should support him. It just means that there is a reason why he has support in that region. The problem is that her reasons for stating that he has support are not necessarily accurate.
Her facts were in error, but that doesn't mean that her goal in saying them was inherently bad.
So, what you are saying then is that we should build infrastructure, give jobs then nuke them...that would make us look good?
Darcaine
I am appalled! A United States Senator called on high school students to investigate the world circumstances. She suggested that Bin Laden had done some positive things to gain supporters.
I do not see how asking students to think about possibilities other than Osama Bin Laden is the Antichrist is bad for the country. It is too simplistic to say that he wakes up evil, goes about his evil way, and spreads his evil with every waking moment. We need to get to know Bin Laden and his supporters better.
If our leadership is correct about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda (and I have no compelling evidence to suggest that it is wrong in this assumption) then a healthy debate will bring out the evidence against him.
If we quash all inquiries that bring up positive aspects of the extreme Muslim fundamentalist movement then e are not participating in a free society. If we do not seek to understand our declared enemy we will be misinformed and we will lose lives in the field because of it. Our ignorance about Vietnam and our assumptions about monolithic communism led us down a bloody path.
As for Lott, let us not forget that liberals did not remove Lott from power. The checkmate in that game was played by Bush. He was not removed from the Senate he was removed from his position as Senate majority leader. Any liberals voting on that one?
I do not see how asking students to think about possibilities other than Osama Bin Laden is the Antichrist is bad for the country. It is too simplistic to say that he wakes up evil, goes about his evil way, and spreads his evil with every waking moment. We need to get to know Bin Laden and his supporters better.
If our leadership is correct about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda (and I have no compelling evidence to suggest that it is wrong in this assumption) then a healthy debate will bring out the evidence against him.
If we quash all inquiries that bring up positive aspects of the extreme Muslim fundamentalist movement then e are not participating in a free society. If we do not seek to understand our declared enemy we will be misinformed and we will lose lives in the field because of it. Our ignorance about Vietnam and our assumptions about monolithic communism led us down a bloody path.
As for Lott, let us not forget that liberals did not remove Lott from power. The checkmate in that game was played by Bush. He was not removed from the Senate he was removed from his position as Senate majority leader. Any liberals voting on that one?
QUOTE
So, what you are saying then is that we should build infrastructure, give jobs then nuke them...that would make us look good?
No, and I'm not sure how you determined that from my posts. What I'm saying is that Bin Laden, as evil as we may think that he is, has a following, and it is to our advantage to understand why he has a following. It doesn't mean that we should stop believing that he is an evil man, but it will help us to better determine how to help the people in Afghanistan, because he was obviously providing them with something that they construed to be positive, and if we remove him from the picture than we need to be able to fill that void in some way.
QUOTE(Stefan Fargus @ Jan 20 2003, 07:14 PM)
I also fail to understand how this issue is akin to the Lott issue, other than the fact that both have been blown completely out of proportion.
Actually, I think this is quite akin to the Lott affair. In both cases, we have politicians speaking with uncharacteristic honesty: Lott said that he felt the US would've been better off with a segregationist president and Murray said that she felt the US would've been better off if we'd addressed the root causes of terrorism before being attacked. I don't believe either politician should be censured for actually speaking their mind for once - though I must say I have a bit more sympathy with the prevention of terror than I have with the prevention of integration. But I guess that's considered anti-American these days.
You've outdone yourself this time, Heather. "The story is that she represents the Democratic party, she thinks like all democrats do" is the second most foolish statement I've seen at America's Debate. On reflection, I'm sure you'd have to agree - at least to an extent. The most foolish statement I've seen here, of course, would be "The democratic party is anti-american, pro-terrorist." Oh, well: we've probably all hit the "Add Reply" button, then regretted it shortly thereafter - I know I have. I'm hoping that this is case here.
And, by the way, I, too, anxiously await a link to a quote from Murray in which she states that bin Laden "attacked America because of our anti-Muslim, anti-Arab policies".
Liberals get a free ride while conservatives don't huh?
Cheney & the Taliban, GWB and Enron (Harken, Haliburton) but no one asks questions. I think it works both ways.
There many faces that can be seen in what was said but I guess I take the sympathetic liberal route with this one. I know many people that are too stupid or stubborn to ask questions and that's what we should be doing.
You ask the average American what (s)he knows about our situation and they'll tell you what they heard while flipping through the channels 'cuz The Osbournes was on a commercial break. You ask people "Why did Sept. 11th happen" and you often hear "Cuz those people hate us!". Come on.
The simplistic view of good vs evil that GWB tries to pinhole us through is embarASSing. Assuming that we're completely innocent is absolutely ridiculous.
No, no wait... I guess Al Qaeda was just playa hatin.
Cheney & the Taliban, GWB and Enron (Harken, Haliburton) but no one asks questions. I think it works both ways.
There many faces that can be seen in what was said but I guess I take the sympathetic liberal route with this one. I know many people that are too stupid or stubborn to ask questions and that's what we should be doing.
You ask the average American what (s)he knows about our situation and they'll tell you what they heard while flipping through the channels 'cuz The Osbournes was on a commercial break. You ask people "Why did Sept. 11th happen" and you often hear "Cuz those people hate us!". Come on.
The simplistic view of good vs evil that GWB tries to pinhole us through is embarASSing. Assuming that we're completely innocent is absolutely ridiculous.
No, no wait... I guess Al Qaeda was just playa hatin.
She was just speaking hypothetically. If you heard what she said you wouldn't think she meant that Osama Bin Laden was a great humanitarian. She was just trying to give a reason why Bin Laden has support hypothetically.
Darcaine,
Guitar and blues harmonica.
Guitar and blues harmonica.
RU,
Sorry, I've shortened your handle cuz, well, I am lazy. Gettin' on in age.
Anyhow, bin laden (purposefully not capitalized) had to have won his following somehow.
If the speech had exaggerations, which I am sure it did--being a politician and all--you probably hit the bull's eye: bin laden had to have given to have gotten. That's just normal human (and non-human, as in interspecies, communications) ways.
But listen: I was ready to kill somebody after 9/11. Who was not? Ticked, peeved, and other terms probably not appropriate for this forum. (Jamie, do I get forgiveness points?)
I wanted blood.
We killed the Taliban. Whoo ha. But that is not enough for us (cuz we didn't get the big bad ZZTop bearded dude).
Now we have lost our minds.
Stop.
Become Americans like our ancestors. If we are to fight, then make it a good fight. Be willing to die.
I don't think anyone is this time around. And I am too old--will die anyways. Eh, gimme a tax break
What if, just what if, somebody gave a war and nobody showed up?
Sorry, I've shortened your handle cuz, well, I am lazy. Gettin' on in age.
Anyhow, bin laden (purposefully not capitalized) had to have won his following somehow.
If the speech had exaggerations, which I am sure it did--being a politician and all--you probably hit the bull's eye: bin laden had to have given to have gotten. That's just normal human (and non-human, as in interspecies, communications) ways.
But listen: I was ready to kill somebody after 9/11. Who was not? Ticked, peeved, and other terms probably not appropriate for this forum. (Jamie, do I get forgiveness points?)
I wanted blood.
We killed the Taliban. Whoo ha. But that is not enough for us (cuz we didn't get the big bad ZZTop bearded dude).
Now we have lost our minds.
Stop.
Become Americans like our ancestors. If we are to fight, then make it a good fight. Be willing to die.
I don't think anyone is this time around. And I am too old--will die anyways. Eh, gimme a tax break
What if, just what if, somebody gave a war and nobody showed up?
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 21 2003, 12:23 AM)
Darcaine,
Guitar and blues harmonica.
Guitar and blues harmonica.
No kidding! Harmnonica has to be one of the hardest instuments to play period.
Darcaine
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ January 21 2003, 12:23a.m.)
Darcaine,
Guitar and blues harmonica.
Guitar and blues harmonica.
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Jan 21 2003, 07:52 AM)
No kidding! Harmnonica has to be one of the hardest instuments to play period.
Darcaine
Darcaine
Could you both please take this elsewhere? I shouldn't have to tell either of you this.
What Senator Murry has done was very brave, and I applaud her. In the battle to preserve our freedoms, it is very important that people in congress ask these kinds of questions and think abut these things.
To those who think she was being unAmerican and/or treasonous: no; it is thoughtless accusations like that which are truly unamerican, squelching dissent the real crime. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, we could also very easily lay the blame at America's feet for another reason: it was the US who helped fund and arm and train Bin Laden and the Mujaheddin (later the Taliban) in their struggle against the USSR. One could say that, had we not given him support at that time, he may never have gained the power he has today. Who knows?
But regardless of that, only someone with their head in the sand could say that the hand of the US in Asian politics was benevolent or innocent, and that any anti-American sentiment is unwarranted, or that they just hate us because they are purely evil.
This thinking in no way condones terrorism. What Patty Murray has done is part of what is quintessentially GOOD about being an American.
To those who think she was being unAmerican and/or treasonous: no; it is thoughtless accusations like that which are truly unamerican, squelching dissent the real crime. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, we could also very easily lay the blame at America's feet for another reason: it was the US who helped fund and arm and train Bin Laden and the Mujaheddin (later the Taliban) in their struggle against the USSR. One could say that, had we not given him support at that time, he may never have gained the power he has today. Who knows?
But regardless of that, only someone with their head in the sand could say that the hand of the US in Asian politics was benevolent or innocent, and that any anti-American sentiment is unwarranted, or that they just hate us because they are purely evil.
This thinking in no way condones terrorism. What Patty Murray has done is part of what is quintessentially GOOD about being an American.
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Jan 21 2003, 11:57 AM)
What Senator Murry has done was very brave, and I applaud her. In the battle to preserve our freedoms, it is very important that people in congress ask these kinds of questions and think abut these things.
To those who think she was being unAmerican and/or treasonous: no; it is thoughtless accusations like that which are truly unamerican, squelching dissent the real crime. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, we could also very easily lay the blame at America's feet for another reason: it was the US who helped fund and arm and train Bin Laden and the Mujaheddin (later the Taliban) in their struggle against the USSR. One could say that, had we not given him support at that time, he may never have gained the power he has today. Who knows?
But regardless of that, only someone with their head in the sand could say that the hand of the US in Asian politics was benevolent or innocent, and that any anti-American sentiment is unwarranted, or that they just hate us because they are purely evil.
This thinking in no way condones terrorism. What Patty Murray has done is part of what is quintessentially GOOD about being an American.
To those who think she was being unAmerican and/or treasonous: no; it is thoughtless accusations like that which are truly unamerican, squelching dissent the real crime. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, we could also very easily lay the blame at America's feet for another reason: it was the US who helped fund and arm and train Bin Laden and the Mujaheddin (later the Taliban) in their struggle against the USSR. One could say that, had we not given him support at that time, he may never have gained the power he has today. Who knows?
But regardless of that, only someone with their head in the sand could say that the hand of the US in Asian politics was benevolent or innocent, and that any anti-American sentiment is unwarranted, or that they just hate us because they are purely evil.
This thinking in no way condones terrorism. What Patty Murray has done is part of what is quintessentially GOOD about being an American.
Actually what she did was UN-American. Yeah, we have the right to free speech but, when you open your mouth be prepared to pay for what you think...so, that being the case I hope she likes working in the private sector.
Thoughtless of what? Excusing someone's actions? Praising someone who just killed 3000 Americans? Making the US look like the bad guy when clearly it wasn't the issue? Hmmm, beginning to look like you thought very little before posting does that make YOU unAmerican?
What she said was wrong, not ONLY because the facts were inaccurate but, the mere fact a sitting US Senator would laud a person like OBL is reprehensible. Not only that but, to say that in front of a school is stupidity within itself.
I have news for you...they hate us for who we are. Islam is not the meek or innocent religion most would dupe you into believing. Now, I am not lumping all Muslims into a single sect, but facts are Islam is spread through bloodshed and history is quite clear on that issue.
My words to Patty are simply, "Stroking some guy after blowing up Americans makes you not only look and sound stupid...you are."
Darcaine
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Jan 21 2003, 07:17 PM)
I have news for you...they hate us for who we are. Islam is not the meek or innocent religion most would dupe you into believing. Now, I am not lumping all Muslims into a single sect, but facts are Islam is spread through bloodshed and history is quite clear on that issue.
Of course they hate us for who we are - and for what we've done and failed to do. It is laughably simplistic to reduce our history in the the Middle East and elsewhere to religious differences. Lots of people hate us for exactly the same reasons (who we are and what we've done and failed to do) - and they are not all Muslim. And need I remind you that Christianity, the dominant religion in this country, is not the meek or innocent religion most would dupe you into believing? Now, I am not lumping all Christians into a single sect, but facts are Christianity is spread through bloodshed - especially in relation to Islam - and history is quite clear on that issue, as well.
QUOTE(Wertz @ Jan 21 2003, 08:11 PM)
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Jan 21 2003, 07:17 PM)
I have news for you...they hate us for who we are. Islam is not the meek or innocent religion most would dupe you into believing. Now, I am not lumping all Muslims into a single sect, but facts are Islam is spread through bloodshed and history is quite clear on that issue.
Of course they hate us for who we are - and for what we've done and failed to do. It is laughably simplistic to reduce our history in the the Middle East and elsewhere to religious differences. Lots of people hate us for exactly the same reasons (who we are and what we've done and failed to do) - and they are not all Muslim. And need I remind you that Christianity, the dominant religion in this country, is not the meek or innocent religion most would dupe you into believing? Now, I am not lumping all Christians into a single sect, but facts are Christianity is spread through bloodshed - especially in relation to Islam - and history is quite clear on that issue, as well.
And I would agree with you on this Wertz. I would say what we have failed to do is spread Democracy to this region rather than supporting kings and dictators. Some of this was because of the cold war but most people do not understand. Perhaps...and just perhaps if we can pull off Afghanistan and Iraq and make them Democratic societies we will see a revolution in these countries toward a more open and tolerant government.
Darcaine
I would love to contribute to the discussion between wertz and darcaine about muslims and why we are facing terrorist threats from them, but I fear I would be off topic. Is there another thread for this, or should we start one?
Start one.
QUOTE
Actually what she did was UN-American. Yeah, we have the right to free speech but, when you open your mouth be prepared to pay for what you think...so, that being the case I hope she likes working in the private sector.
I am confused. Is it un-American to exercise freedom of speech and take whatever consequences there are to that exercise? Or is it un-American to not resign because someone doesn't like what you said? Or is it un-American to lose an election because of the way you think?
I'll tell you what I think is un-American: begging for forgiveness after saying something stupid (Lott's Folly). I don't think this will be the case here. I strongly feel, after reading her words, that she believes in what she said very much and will never apologize for her speech. Being American is having this sort of courage and conviction.
QUOTE(AuthorMusician @ Jan 22 2003, 08:56 AM)
QUOTE
Actually what she did was UN-American. Yeah, we have the right to free speech but, when you open your mouth be prepared to pay for what you think...so, that being the case I hope she likes working in the private sector.
I am confused. Is it un-American to exercise freedom of speech and take whatever consequences there are to that exercise? Or is it un-American to not resign because someone doesn't like what you said? Or is it un-American to lose an election because of the way you think?
I'll tell you what I think is un-American: begging for forgiveness after saying something stupid (Lott's Folly). I don't think this will be the case here. I strongly feel, after reading her words, that she believes in what she said very much and will never apologize for her speech. Being American is having this sort of courage and conviction.
Well if you ask me Lott was blown out of proportion. What THIS lady said was far worse and swept under the rug by the main stream media. No need for confusion, you are basically saying one in the same. It's a shame these people elected a Senator they knew little about.
Asking for forgiveness is Un-American? Interesting point of view. The fact she is too ignorant to understand what she said is case enough for her state to get rid of her in the next election. That is, if we are allowed to play anything that shows who she is thanks to the new laws.
Conviction to be what? Justifying the deaths of 3000 Americans as America's fault? Making OBL look like the good guy in all this? Having people like you defend her and her statement?
I find it fascinating that democrats get a pass on all this. Is ideology so important that it overrides rational thought for Democrats or "so-called" Independants?
In the words of Mr. Spock...Fascinating.
Darcaine
Stop saying that she lauded bin laden, becuase she didn't. She was simply giving reasons for his support in the middle east. If you've ever seen New Jack City you'd understand.Nino Brown was a drug dealer and murderer who had lots of support in the poor community, because he gave away food and clothes. A real life example would be Rayful Edmunds.
QUOTE
It's a shame these people elected a Senator they knew little about.
I live in Washington. I voted for her. I did so because she was forthright and intelligent. I am very glad to have done so, thank you.
QUOTE
The fact she is too ignorant to understand what she said is case enough for her state to get rid of her in the next election.
Ignorant here seems only to mean "disagrees with Darcaine's views." Fact here seems only to mean "I said it so it must be a true fact."
QUOTE
Conviction to be what? Justifying the deaths of 3000 Americans as America's fault? Making OBL look like the good guy in all this? Having people like you defend her and her statement?
She did neither. Read it again. She made some generalizations, and I would have personally taken a different angle - I would have talked more about the support and training Bin Laden received from the US in the early eighties. She did not justify terrorism, nor make Bin Laden the "good guy."
In dealing with Asian countries, the US has a record of failed promises, aggressive policies, and cultural imperialism. To think that what happened on Sept. 11 was out of the blue and based on nothing MORE than insane hatred is myopic thinking at best. Does that make it our fault? Of course not, that would be just as narrow a view.
QUOTE
I find it fascinating that democrats get a pass on all this. Is ideology so important that it overrides rational thought for Democrats or "so-called" Independants?
Ideology is overrated, Darcaine. Indeed, as your statement stands, one could say it fits your own posting rather well. This kind of knee-jerk response to someone asking legitimate questions absolutely reeks of ideology triumphing over rational thought.
QUOTE(Darcaine @ Jan 22 2003, 07:17 AM)
Conviction to be what? Justifying the deaths of 3000 Americans as America's fault? Making OBL look like the good guy in all this? Having people like you defend her and her statement?
I still don't see where Patty Murray justified the deaths of Americans, nor do I see where she made Osama Bin Laden look like a good guy. She pointed out the reasons for his following. So what? Is it really such a strange concept to you to want to understand the motivations behind Osama's followers? How do you fix it, if you don't understand the motive...the root of the problem?
In my opinion, Patty Murray's biggest blunder was that her facts were incorrect. It's something that she should work towards rectifying, but it is being blown out of proportion.
Bin Laden's hospitals aren't for "the people"—they're for his soldiers alone. The roads he built were to facilitate his military movements, his schools (if you can call them that) were to indoctrinate young people in his own brand of militant, anti-Western Islam. In short, everything Bin Laden has done benefits Bin Laden. Murray is either misinformed, or is spreading misinformation.
QUOTE(cyclone @ Jan 22 2003, 10:28 AM)
Bin Laden's hospitals aren't for "the people"—they're for his soldiers alone. The roads he built were to facilitate his military movements, his schools (if you can call them that) were to indoctrinate young people in his own brand of militant, anti-Western Islam. In short, everything Bin Laden has done benefits Bin Laden. Murray is either misinformed, or is spreading misinformation.
You're right, they aren't for the people, but I disagree that everything that Bin Laden has done merely benefits Bin Laden. He played a role in arming and training the mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the soviet invasion. He did build infrastructure for the people in Sudan, and he is strongly devoted to the people who fight along side of him in his version of jihad. The Taliban protected Bin Laden because of his devotion to his cause, which is in line with their own, and in general, Osama Bin Laden is a charismatic leader who shares the same distaste for America that many of his followers do. He is intelligent and he is calculating, and he serves as a good leader for their cause. Those are some of the reasons why he has followers.
Patty Murray's reasons were incorrect, but she is correct that it is a topic that should be explored. Why exactly are they anti-american? They didn't just wake up and decide that the United States is evil. Exploring this topic was the intention behind her statements. I don't see how that can be construed as being anti-American.
QUOTE
Ideology is overrated, Darcaine. Indeed, as your statement stands, one could say it fits your own posting rather well. This kind of knee-jerk response to someone asking legitimate questions absolutely reeks of ideology triumphing over rational thought.
Interesting response. Shall I continue?
QUOTE
"We've got to ask, why is this man (Osama bin Laden) so popular around the world?," said Murray, who faces re-election in 2004. "Why are people so supportive of him in many countries … that are riddled with poverty?
"He's been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day care facilities, building health care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. We haven't done that.
"He's been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day care facilities, building health care facilities, and the people are extremely grateful. We haven't done that.
Building infrastructure for a terrorist organization. This ladies facts are so screwed it's hard to believe no one has questioned this. Day care center? Why? All the women stay home...please. Terrorist schools for more suicide bombers. Hospitals for ONLY his followers. Yeah they are grateful alright, that's why Afghanistan is now calling 911 the day of their liberation.
QUOTE
"How would they look at us today if we had been there helping them with some of that rather than just being the people who are going to bomb in Iraq and go to Afghanistan?"
Do you have ANY idea how much money we gave to this country Senator? People that are going to bomb Iraq...interesting Saddam gets another pass as the guy who is responsible for launching missiles into countries not EVEN involved in the Gulf War.
QUOTE
She did neither. Read it again. She made some generalizations, and I would have personally taken a different angle - I would have talked more about the support and training Bin Laden received from the US in the early eighties. She did not justify terrorism, nor make Bin Laden the "good guy."
In dealing with Asian countries, the US has a record of failed promises, aggressive policies, and cultural imperialism. To think that what happened on Sept. 11 was out of the blue and based on nothing MORE than insane hatred is myopic thinking at best. Does that make it our fault? Of course not, that would be just as narrow a view.
In dealing with Asian countries, the US has a record of failed promises, aggressive policies, and cultural imperialism. To think that what happened on Sept. 11 was out of the blue and based on nothing MORE than insane hatred is myopic thinking at best. Does that make it our fault? Of course not, that would be just as narrow a view.
And most Americans would have brought up all the bombings this guy has been responsible for and the suffering of those who were victims. Speaking half truths there are two possible answers for her remarks, either A ) She is ignorant of the truth or B ) She knows the truth and is lying about it to make some point.
Please define cultural imperialism..we await your definition. Of course it isn't our fault, beating you head against a wall trying to find why some people are insane and rationalizing it is impotent to say the least.
QUOTE
I live in Washington. I voted for her. I did so because she was forthright and intelligent. I am very glad to have done so, thank you.
I will remember this anytime you talk about people. It'll be a good gauge on your perception about people.
Darcaine
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Jan 22 2003, 04:14 PM)
QUOTE
It's a shame these people elected a Senator they knew little about.
I live in Washington. I voted for her. I did so because she was forthright and intelligent. I am very glad to have done so, thank you.
I'm glad I don't live in Washington state. Because I know that state deserves far better representation that Pat"Osama" Murray. If she had gotten her facts before she praised him, which she most certainly did, she would have known he built all that infrastructure to support his terrorist network, not to help the poor of Afghanistan. What a ditz.
Freedom of speech is one thing, but speaking in public is another. While it's fine for anyone to do so, those who endeavor should make sure they are telling the truth, and not spreading lies, misinformation, half-truths or rumors.
Can ANYONE provide a link that shows that OBL built hospitals or roads for public use?
If he did build them for only his military, than that doesn't really make him much of a humanitarian, and shouldn't be considered when wondering why people follow him.
--cheers
Can ANYONE provide a link that shows that OBL built hospitals or roads for public use?
If he did build them for only his military, than that doesn't really make him much of a humanitarian, and shouldn't be considered when wondering why people follow him.
--cheers
She didn't check her facts and that's her only mistake.
She's encouraging people to think about the true solution to this problem by analyzing it's roots. There are reasons 9-11 happened & our country is partially responsible in several ways.
"Them A-rabs did it cuz they hate us an they're evil" is entirely too simplistic and, well... stupid. She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
She's encouraging people to think about the true solution to this problem by analyzing it's roots. There are reasons 9-11 happened & our country is partially responsible in several ways.
"Them A-rabs did it cuz they hate us an they're evil" is entirely too simplistic and, well... stupid. She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
QUOTE(Roy @ Jan 24 2003, 12:42 AM)
She didn't check her facts and that's her only mistake.
She's encouraging people to think about the true solution to this problem by analyzing it's roots. There are reasons 9-11 happened & our country is partially responsible in several ways.
"Them A-rabs did it cuz they hate us an they're evil" is entirely too simplistic and, well... stupid. She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
She's encouraging people to think about the true solution to this problem by analyzing it's roots. There are reasons 9-11 happened & our country is partially responsible in several ways.
"Them A-rabs did it cuz they hate us an they're evil" is entirely too simplistic and, well... stupid. She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
Roy,
And if any Republican had said what she said you would be all over this. I think you are too "simplistic" over her lack of knowledge to explain this.
QUOTE
"Them A-rabs did it cuz they hate us an they're evil" is entirely too simplistic and, well... stupid. She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
Please cite a reference for this quote or a link. As for what she thinks...think would be a word I wouldn't use for this Senator.
Darcaine
Darcaine, it seems obvious by now, you don't use the word "think" for anyone with a liberal viewpoint.
And if a Republican had said it, I for one would be shocked, but in a good way. As much as you might like to believe in some blanket sort of partisanship, there are a number of liberals on this board, as well as a number of conservatives, who don't just tow the party line.
Murray muddled the facts a bit, but there was nothing at all wrong with her intent. Bin Laden is popular in Afghanistan because he came there in the early eighties and used his financial clout to help the Mujaheddin against the Soviet Union. He became a leader of the resistance, and was funded and supplied partly by the U.S. To the Mujaheddin, some of whom later became the Taliban, he was a hero, a wealthy Saudi Arabian who believed in the cause enough to come and put his life on the line. Of course he's a terrorist, and I'm certainly not defending his actions, neither was Senator Murray, however, why would it be traitorous or wrong to want to try and understand how someone like Bin Laden came about? It's not like understanding something means you support it, or love it. It's called seeking a balanced and full perspective, instead of simplistic monomania knee-jerk reaction thinking.
And if a Republican had said it, I for one would be shocked, but in a good way. As much as you might like to believe in some blanket sort of partisanship, there are a number of liberals on this board, as well as a number of conservatives, who don't just tow the party line.
Murray muddled the facts a bit, but there was nothing at all wrong with her intent. Bin Laden is popular in Afghanistan because he came there in the early eighties and used his financial clout to help the Mujaheddin against the Soviet Union. He became a leader of the resistance, and was funded and supplied partly by the U.S. To the Mujaheddin, some of whom later became the Taliban, he was a hero, a wealthy Saudi Arabian who believed in the cause enough to come and put his life on the line. Of course he's a terrorist, and I'm certainly not defending his actions, neither was Senator Murray, however, why would it be traitorous or wrong to want to try and understand how someone like Bin Laden came about? It's not like understanding something means you support it, or love it. It's called seeking a balanced and full perspective, instead of simplistic monomania knee-jerk reaction thinking.
QUOTE(Roy @ Jan 23 2003, 10:42 PM)
She encouraged people to take a deeper look.
...... By feeding them lies?
Great, I'm glad someone was taking a stand, and trying to explain another viewpoint. But if you have to lie about one side, to make the other side look better...you only look worse...
Her intenet was noble, her words were not thought out very well.
--cheers
PS: Just because I got through reading Wertz' post in the Comments and Suggestions forum, I have to say this:
I wonder if her speech writer, is the same one Barbara Strisand used when she called Saddam an Iranian?
Darcaine, you assume too much. Whatever works into your agenda I guess.
Back to lurking,
Roy
Back to lurking,
Roy
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