That you have a evolved "street sense" is obvious, Artemise, but besides the unsolicited attention of black men, is there any reason why besides physical stature that makes you see them as potential predators?

Maybe it's time to talk about sex?

I think it's terrible that you can't go and enjoy the music of your choice without some boorish man trying to make a move on you and only succeed in annoying you. Personally, I'd probably just try something a little more subtle like sending over a drink and let things go from there, but that's me.

Yes, an attractive 6-foot, blonde with a nice gluteus maximus (or so you've inferred) should be able to move about single and free, but this is a sexist society we have here and tall, beautiful women suffer for it. I'm married to a tall and beautiful woman myself and I've seen the looks she gets when she walks the streets in Times Square and one guy was bold enough to not just look but to grab a quick feel on the subway. But I hardly think stupid and sexist behavior is confined to black men.

Or is there something else going on that whites and blacks feel awkward and that's the sexual stereotypes we've formed about each other?

A Mythical Divide on the Subject of Sex

Black................................................White

hot........................................................cold
uninhibited.............................................inhibited
wild.......................................................tame
big butt..................................................flat butt
abandonded...........................................restrained
direct.....................................................indirect
flaunting.................................................hiding
loose......................................................stiff
agile.......................................................awkward
natural....................................................kinky

White men and black men each have their own approaches when they wish to interest a woman as a potential sex partner, but there isn't one limited exclusively to race. Not at least that I'm familar with. Based on what you indicate, Artemise, I'd say you just ran into some bruthas with a bit more dog in them than others. I don't think getting up in a woman's face is the best approach, but that's just me.
I've always found if I could engage a woman in conversation first and get her to laugh then all other possibilities sprang forth from that point on.

Referring again to Thomas Kochman's Black and White Styles In Conflict he writes, "In black culture, it is customary for black men to approach black women in a manner that openly expresses a sexual interest, while in white culture it is equally customary for 'respectable' women to be offended by an approach that presumes sexual interest and availability."

Jim Myers expounds on Kochman's point and says, ...when black men make their agressive-seeming advances toward white women, serious misunderstandings often follow. Even after the sexual revolution, white women are unaccustomed to such directness on the street....In some cases, white women have characterized the verbal style of a black man as a "attack" or an "assault," when it was hardly out of the ordinary for a black environment. Also, white women are likely to be afraid of black men, if only because whites so often are afraid of black men.

So a black man says, "Damn, baby. You with all them curves and me with no brakes."

And a white woman becomes frightened. She walks on, trying to ignore the commentator. Whites in general have less experience with the give-and-take of street encounters common in Southern cultures, not just those between men and women. Whites can sense themselves ill-equipped to participate in exchanges of wit or sexual innuendo. And, yes, it is another issue on which they might feel inferior, but whites are also worried about saying the wrong thing around black people, too. So for all those reasons, they believe that guarded silence is the best course, because responding to individuals who make comments only encourages them to do more of it.

I doubt that you're hanging out in many clubs in Alaska listening to reggae music and nursing a bottle of Red Stripe while some dreadlocked brother is complimenting how nicely you fill out a pair of jeans (then again you might---I don't know a thing about Alaska's nite life), but IF you are...

I would suggest that you smile politely, and gently, but firmly let the black man who is annoying you that you are there to listen to the music, buy your own drink and go as you came---alone. Most guys should take the hint to beat it. If that doesn't work, soak 'em down with some pepper spray and run like hell. Always know where the closest exit is.

But not every black man who wants to strike up a conversation is scheming about how they are going to get you between the sheets. They aren't always thinking of where they're going to dump the body. Maybe they just enjoy the music too and want to talk about it with someone who shares a similar taste. Who knows?

NT, Im going to feel like we are using AD time to have private conversation, but I believe you have hit the nail on the head about this thing for me.



I first became aware of this difference in the cinema. While this overt sexual innuendo made me nervous, I saw it amongst black people in movies later. The black women took it in stride and came back with some other remark, perhaps offsetting, or onsetting. I dont know, we are not used to overt sexual banter when we dont know someone. It seems like youre just an object. I would hate this from any male. Woof! Pant- pant.



Hardy har, NT, baloney. You are truly showing your age. (unless they are unavailable or impotent, and that goes for all races) Lets say in the least hoping?
Nevermind.
----------------------------


This is interesting, because it might indicate the mothers level of education and/or input as predominant, and fathers absence of input overall no matter what family situation. Are fathers caring less or less likely to bother with the childrens education?

If you percieve by these studies that black parents care less about their childrens education, or dont get involved enough then the scenario plays out, but only if the fathers input is lacking, even as white male.
If black mom works, makes dinner and does up the dishes, or has less education or spends less time and white dad is not doing much their kids are not likely to do well. Perhaps white mom has the same situation, but spends more time or has had a better education, (or the black father is stepping in,) then the kids do better. So where is white dad in this scenario? Is he to blame in your stats? I doubt it, so is black mom? No. I suspect its that many dads take for granted all this stuff is handled by someone other than them for the most part, basically, mom and school. So, what is moms education level?

I know my s/o's kids do better when I am keeping everyone on schedule. He IS tired at the end of a day and really could not be bothered, he expects the school to take care of it and the kids to be honest about their responsibilities. Homework is not really his forte'. He wants peace in the home and everyone to do their job by miraculous divination.

Just between parents, I have to admit that I am sometimes befuddled by my kids homework. Its been 20 years or longer since I did some of these math problems. I hated to feel stupid but I had to go to my 4th graders teacher and have her remind me how some things were done in order to help with homework. It wasnt like I needed a whole lesson, but some simpler tasks were totally forgotten!

Lets say, today, perhaps some parents didn't get a good education when they were young, I did and still needed a reminder, but I wasnt afraid to ask, no loss of face; it means nothing to me to look stupid in front of my 4th graders teacher. What if it did? What if brown or black parents never had fractions to decimals or exponents or long division or algebra in school or had no school, or forgot it? How can they help their kids? What if the parents barely speak english?

I guess im saying there may be more to this than basic race inequality or parental neglect.

Just to add a bit here...My mother still isn't able to write well in English to this day, so I can attest to this personally. Also to add...The average black first-time mother is under 20. The average white mother 23 and a half. Maturity makes a difference, too. We have attempted threads on this issue in the past, but they usually become inflammatory and have to close. This is why I hesitate to post here.

I've actually spent about two and a half hours typing six different posts and previewing them on this thread, and then deleting. When Nighttimer started this thread, I had that feeling of foreboding like a man might have if his girlfriend turned to him and stated they "needed to talk about their relationship". It just never goes well. I guess that's my answer to Nighttimer's opening question about what 'bugs me most'. I did marry a Latino. We have a great relationship, and we joke about each other's racial history (he says his family arrived on 'legitimate transportation' referring to rafts floating over from Cuba). We joke about racial slurs and think they're funny. I call him a 'spick' occasionally, which is basically a term of endearment in our house, and he calls me a cracker. It's just funny to us, but I've brought that subject up here and basically been called a racist. I think people sometimes take things a bit too personally at times, when there is absolutely no malicious intent.

As for friends, yes, I have some black friends, but not many very close ones. One of our best friends is a black pilot who visits from time to time. I think black men are gorgeous. I like dark skin, and I like the fact that their bodies tend to muscle up really easily and don't have horrid tan lines. That's about all I'll say on that.

Unfortunately- I think Artemise is somewhat a victim of our female to male ratio as anything else here in Alaska- you either have to be such a awesome looking gentleman with awesome charm or you have to try the "shotgun" approach to dating- being aggresive to every female you meet until one says yes- that I could see it as somewhat off-putting LOL

Probably needs to be a seperate topic on male to female relations than racial- though the styles of the mating dance differ from culture to culture, I used to be part of that group years ago, before I met my lifemate.

In my own inter-racial relationships, which my attraction to them (what I liked about this woman or that) had nothing to do with race but thier natural physical beauty- I did notice that in all my interacial relationships the female was aggresive towards me, in a tasteful way, of thier receptiveness to any advance I might make- which I HIGHLY appreciated- made the chance of rejection much lower, and the chance of misreading thier intention much less embarrasing for me LOL


BTW- I printed this entire thread off and we all read this on my ward- were I am the only white person, period.

We all had this observation- we work on a ward for Mentally ill hard core criminals- that folks on both sides are just too darn uptight about too many things. All the blacks described specific incidences, up here in Alaska, of racial epitaths hurled thier way in very rare instances.

We all agreed, that due to where we work, our sensitivities towards race etc is somewhat dulled. Nothing like working around real evil scumbags to change your perspectives I suppose.

An example- we had a white suprmecist on the unit- hurling racial epitahts all day- the usual ones towards non-whites, and "race traitor" and "nigger lover" towards me- and my staff friends noticed I was becoming embarrased and impatient towards this guy, as I was the only white person on the unit, and somehow, I was starting to feel his racial epitaths were reflecting on me as being the only white guy. So my black friend began "acting white"- a total parody of whiteness- funny walk, high pitched slang free voice etc. - something right out of In Living Color- totally blowing out my uncomfortableness.

I dont' think it would have been cool in any other work setting of professionals.

But it was hilarious.

That's so cool, CruisingRam! I'd love to know what kind of reaction you got because there have sure been some really deep thoughts shared here.

I talked to mostly black guys about this subject after printing it off- and they all had the same thing to say. Paraphrased "I just don't rate "black" as one of the top items I describe myself to myself. I think "Father, Biker, B-baller, Hunter etc"- black doesn't come into the self description very early on.

First off, my viewpoints on that comment. - I work in a place where you be pretty mellow in your dealings with others. Good social skills, of whever they come from, just as long as they work, keep you safe among the mentally ill. Not over reacting to anything too much.

I don't know if I described it well- but there is a "certain personality" that can work long term in a stressful enviroment and remain therapuetic. Get me?

Most of the black men I talked to grew up here, with summers spent in the "lower 48" with family- this is normal up here, I spent summers in Wyoming and Texas many times.

One came from Philly- and he is one of my best and closest friends. We fish, he was at my wedding (both of them LOL) and we watch each others kids on occasion. He told me that he agreed with the others, but it wasn't always so. He said in Philly, being black was the FIRST thing on his mind (he is in his middle 50s BTW) and all other definitions came later. After Vietnam, he was stationed at Ft Richardson up here. He said it was the first place he had ever been where a white guy he had never met before nodded and smiled, making eye contact, while walking down the street, and it happened just about all the time.

Since the poeple on the street stopped recognizing him as a black male first on the street, or he felt they weren't overt about it- he started thinking of himself in other categories first, grandpa, union official etc.

He thought NTs anger was the basis of being forced into always being aware of his race, all the time.

The rest kind of went along that line, and they all gave personal anecdotes, times of racism and total color blindness that they observed.

I guess the moral is our kids seem to be the key. Chilly from Philly (my buddy) related this anecdote of my daugher and his grandaughter. They were playing with crayons in the box, and Chilly's little girl said " I have kind of brownish skin" and my Daughter looked at the colors and said "I have biege skin"- me and Chilly cracked up, and said to me in a whisper "man, our kids don't even know what color they are yet".

That experiance stuck with us both a bit- seemed to more deeply affect him.

And NT- I am still puzzled over the rage one feels even when one's life is pretty good overall.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

First, I happened upon this discussion by reading the 'best of' posts late last night. I was tempted to tackle this one at 3 a.m., but figured I might be a bit more coherent and able to articulate my thoughts after I got some sleep

Now, along with nighttimer, I've been very dismayed by the Race Debate forum and the seeming inability of threads to remain open for more than a week or so before the arguments get heated to the point of the dreaded 'lock'. I try to be a calm debater, but I know that race is one of the subjects that I'm most passionate about and I have a tendency to get more animated in these debates than others. I do like to discuss matters of race because I think a great deal of our society's issues stem from internalized prejudices that are reinforced on a regular basis (partly because no one seems to be capable of carrying on a truthful conversation about race without letting tempers flare and making judgments based upon preconceived notions). I do tend to bring my emotion into the race debate because that's where the experiences are derived. I also tend to try to talk a person's ear off, citing not only personal experience but statistics as well when it comes to issues of race. That's partially because I often feel as if I have to speak for an entire population of people due to my personal 'situation'. More on that...

As anyone who's been around AD for a while knows, my husband is Black and I'm white. I attended a predominantly minority high school (55% Hispanic, 30% Black, 10% white, 5% 'other') and am accustomed to being surrounded by people of other 'races'. Through my experience as the minority, I've always had a different perspective on 'race' than I'd assume most white folks have had and as such, I've never had a problem discussing race candidly and with what I feel to be some authority. Not entirely related (but some might find it important as 'background information'), I've also always had a physical attraction to darker skin (I've mentioned this before on AD...it started from the time I can remember - the boys that I found 'cute' from kindergarten on were almost always either Latino, Black, or Asian), which has in and of itself led to some interesting assumptions about me (assumptions made about who I would or wouldn't date based solely upon who I'm most physically attracted to, for example).

In grade school, there were few children of color in my schools, but I was always exposed in other ways...cultural events that my mother took us to, for example. I can honestly say that because of my exposure from a young age, I haven't had a whole lot of 'preconceived notions' regarding skin color. Whatever internal "prejudices" I do have, though, are generally a result of the breadth of personal experience I've had with a particular subsets of people (i.e. first generation Mexican-Americans) through my own family in particular (my step-father is Mexican-American - his parents are first generation Americans).

As for the question at hand regarding relationship with people of other races...I've pretty much always played the role of 'champion' of the minority (for lack of a better phrase). I can tell you that this dates back to my kindergarten days when I had a very unpleasant experience with a substitute teacher. She made some extremely derogatory remarks in the classroom about the children of color and went so far as to segregate the class by color (it was quite obvious to me what she was doing, even at such a young age). That experience REALLY stuck with me. My mother was very forthcoming about race and people's prejudices from a very young age, so I probably had a much greater awareness of what was going on than the average kid. Ever since that experience, I've had this sort of internal drive to right that wrong.

As a pre-teen, I wrote poetry about racial harmony and color-blindedness (I was a bit naive then) and as a teenager I spent a lot of time researching race relations and how to get people to really open up in order to understand one another. Part of this desire grew out of my experiences in high school. My high school was extremely segregated. In fact, the only reason there was a statistically significant percentage of white students at my school was because of desegregation. My school bussed in white kids ('lured' would be a better term) for magnet programs (the kids who actually lived within the schools' boundaries had to fight like crazy to get into the programs because their intent was to foster desegregation, but that's another story). The racial divide between Mexican-Americans and Blacks was VERY apparent. The day of the Rodney King verdict I was a freshman in high school. I remember the fights that broke out on campus that day - none of them involved white students...it was always Mexican vs. Black. The white students tended to keep to themselves in corners (a little apprehensive and nervous, perhaps) and the Mexican and BLack students had their 'headquarters' located in fairly close proximity to one another. Sociologically, it was very much like a prison population in the strict racial divide (at least between the students who were not in magnets). The magnet environment was a whole different world in itself with almost no racial barriers whatsoever. But I saw the damage that prejudice and lack of dialogue/understanding did in my high school and I was set on doing something (whatever little I personally could do) to help.

In terms of what my network of friends looks like, it's pretty much a United Colors of Benetton ad. My best friend from high school is black and most of my closest friends in college were Black as well. My bridesmaids were Indian and Spanish. My closest friends as an adult have been from all different cultures as well. I've had boyfriends of all backgrounds, too. While my physical attraction has always been to darker skin, I've had white boyfriends and have been attracted to white guys before (just not as often physically attracted). After the initial physical attraction, I'm usually attracted to the brains and heart, and those two see no color.

My relationship with people of other races has always been interesting...can't tell you how many times I've been 'elected' as an honorary member of a certain racial group because of my openness and candid conversations on the subject (and my awareness as well). I've rarely encountered 'resistance' and when I have, it was generally not sustained for any period of time. The most resistance I've encountered is from whites who think I'm somehow 'pretending' because I have a great deal of interest in Black culture (well, all cultures really). The age old question "do you think you're Black?" has been asked of me more times than I care to count. When people find out that I minored in Africana studies in college, it's almost like I have four heads. "Why?" Because I like the subject matter...why not?

One of the biggest surprises I've had when it comes to preconceptions is that, contrary to what I'd believed, a lot of white people truly have no idea just how pervasive race is to people of color. I'd always thought that white folks just didn't sympathize because they thought it trivial. But in college, I really learned that a whole lot of white folks just really have no idea.

In terms of specific preconceptions, my biggest 'confirmed' is probably that Black people are by in large VERY against homosexuality, which I always found rather disheartening and confusing. I know (or assume) that this is a result of the majority of Black people in the U.S. having very strong religious convictions, but it still doesn't make it any less upsetting for me. For a people who've been thought of as inferior for centuries and are only just starting to be treated as equals, it amazes me that this particular belief can be so rampant. I know religion has played a huge role in the ability to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so-to-speak, during and after slavery, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. But it constantly amazes me how many people who I'd otherwise consider to be fabulously compassionate are so dead set against homosexuality (or just minding their own business). My husband has said that it's very hard for him as a young Black male, to be outspoken about his beliefs (he's very much pro-gay rights), especially in the military where the anti-gay sentiment is rampant and is often the largest source of material for in-office jokes.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

Not at all. I would consider it more 'cultural pride' than racial pride though. And there's a big and pretty obvious difference between celebrating one's roots and culture and touting one's superiority. I think a lot of criticisms of cultural pride just don't realize that the people who are espousing pride are the people who've historically been the most disadvantaged and discriminated against. It's a defense mechanism as much as it is an honest passion about one's heritage. Things like BET and Miss Black America exist not to attempt to exclude others, but as an attempt to celebrate one's culture/ideas. Miss Black America is definitely still 'needed' (in the exaggerated sense of the word) because of the vastly different idea of what constitutes beauty and poise in mainstream America and in Black America. The same can be said of other groups or organizations that focus on subsets of the population. The NAACP (as an example) still exists because Blacks are still a numerical and societal minority and it is a voice for those whose voice would likely be drowned out otherwise. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage - pride in one's heritage is not mutually exclusive with being open-minded and interested in coming together. It is certainly possible to note that people feel connected to their roots while still realizing that these connections will mean different things to different people and that these people still have individual identities. I certainly don't define myself by my German/Hungarian/Irish/Scottish/Gypsy roots, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be proud of my culture (heck, who wouldn't be proud to be a gypsy ).

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

What bugs me most about Blacks...certainly the largely anti-homosexual sentiment is what first comes to mind. This is also what most confuses me. I also really wish we could squash the 'talking/acting white' stuff. While my experience tells me that inferior schools and socio-economic stressors play a huge role in the success or lack thereof of Black children in school, the idea that being an intellectual means you're being white really needs to go. I think this is a result of wanting to be accepted and it just keeps getting passed down. I do see a gradual shift away from this notion though and that is certainly promising.

What bugs me most about Whites...stop complaining about 'reverse discrimination'. The mere thought of the tables being turned scares the bejeezus out of whites (why I personally think it'll be a long time coming before we see a Black POTUS), so when there seems to be an actual case of whites being disadvantaged in some way, all hell breaks loose. Also, I wish white people wouldn't be so quick to assume that they understand or know what it's like to suffer from institutionalized racism on anything close to the level of Black Americans. If you aren't the victim, it's very hard to understand just how pervasive racism can be. And the 'slavery ended a long time ago' argument really gets my blood boiling. But that's a whole other topic of conversation...

I am VERY pleased that we've actually been able to have a candid debate about race. Thank you nighttimer for facilitating it and thank you to everyone who's posted for being honest and respectful. And that brings me to the last point...discussions like these are what makes me think that judging by the content of one's character is not a fairy tale concept. The fact that children are being brought up to be more socially conscious and to be more tolerant of others and their backgrounds/beliefs (for the most part) is certainly promising. The fact that we are more integrated now (schools and neighborhoods are, in my experience anyway, far more integrated than they were when I was a kid) also gives me hope. But mostly it's these types of dialogues. I've always believed that the road to true acceptance and tolerance can be found through honest dialogue and exchange. You can't understand how others tick if you're not willing to listen and/or open up.

Thanks again for this discussion!

1. I have relationships with people of many "races". My best friend is a "black" guy who is married to a "white" woman. I have many close friends who are "Asian", "hispanic", "Indian" or some variety of the above. What have I learned through my life about race? That people are just people in spite of what they look like. The same is true the world over. People are just as dumb everywhere that I've traveled. Was that a surprise? In some ways, yes. We are almost raised to glamorize the "foreign"; the liberal elite has a special place for Europe or the "Continent" which they hold in far higher esteem than most of podunk America. That's silly given my experiences traveling throughout Europe, Asia and Mexico. Race means nothing. Among each race you have the entire spectrum of human behavior covered and no "race" is an exception. The things that separates people to the point that they're willing to hate and kill their fellow man over their differences aren't things like "race". They are personality, culture, belief systems, and "religion". My personal experience? The small number of people who have given me heartburn throughout my life were all "white". I don't draw any large conclusions from that either.

2. Racial pride should be eliminated. It makes no difference in my book if it's a clown like David Duke shouting "White Power!" to a bunch of fat redneck meth heads or the NAACP or Louis Farakkhan, Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton spouting the same sort of nonsense in a more socially "respectable" way. Racism should be eliminated in all its forms. And, that includes legal racism in the form of "affirmative action".

3. What gives me hope about the content of our character? Young children today are raised in a different environment than I was. An "interracial" couple in the 1960s', 1970's and even the early 1980's was something that people would call attention to. Today, it's hardly noticed at all. Of course it is by some, but those people are shrinking in number. The only holdouts are in the bastions of racial segregation which are shrinking in number everywhere except (as I pointed out in number 1) groups where self imposed discrimination and blatant discrimination is considered socially acceptable (i.e, a community like Detroit). In other words, the afro-centric community. Oh, I understand that it is a reaction to the reality of the past. But that doesn't make it a reaction, and thus "reactionary" and thus contrary to a "progressive" future. That's what bugs me the most. The fact the some people focus on race first, second, and third and that it colors every interaction, every relationship, and every opinion that they pose.

That was pretty good advice. I wish I had taken it in the last Affirmative Action thread. Maybe Jaime wouldn't have been forced to lock it.

Well, at least I know a lot more about affirmative action than I did a week ago (thanks, kmsouthern).

I like to believe that I can stay above the fray and not get sucked into pointless Post Wars between myself and another poster, but I guess that's another illusion blown to bits. Truth is, when sufficiently provoked, I can lose my cool and give in to racially reactionary rhetoric designed to inflame than inform.

Oh, I'm not issuing any apologies or trying to distance myself from the posts I made. I still believe in the correctness of my opinions as I expressed them. Just as I'm sure lordhelmet, turnea, aevans176, Vermillion, Wertz, JustLeaveMeAlone!, Kmsouthern, Hobbes, Cephus and everyone else who contributed still believes their own.

Did ANYBODY really change their mind 136 replies and 4000 views later? Doubtful.

Yet, even if nobody changed their mind, we all learned lessons worth learning. What we actually DO with the information gleaned is a bit murkier. I did go to the doctor yesterday and my blood pressure was excellent so I at least have suffered no lingering adverse effects.

Maybe this belongs in "What I Have Learned" but it seems appopriate here. Race matters. Not to take a swipe at lordhelmet---I'm sure he feels I've taken plenty---but if race does not matter as he contends, then is it simply our unwillingness to disengage from it gracefully that makes the passions rise so high?

That thread should be Exhibit A if any evidence is needed that race DOES matter. We have not progressed to a place yet where all the stereotypes, generalizations and errant beliefs no longer hold sway. Whether we're White women, Black men, White men, Gay men, Italian, German, Irish, Jewish or whatever none of us want to feel like we are suffering from injustice due to something we cannot control.

None of us can control our racial background and how we determine how that has shaped us. We're ALL buggin' out with the bad wiring and messed up machinery that makes me think race matters and makes somebody else think it doesn't.

The debate I've just went through was not entirely pleasant. That does not mean though there was no value to it.

Gimme a day or so and I might be able to tell you what it was.

I wouldn't say that I changed my mind, but the debate made me sincerely consider my surroundings and think about situations in which my race could be construed as an asset, where as in the past I generally have considered Affirmative Action debate as a time in which being white was counter productive.

It made me consider the pre-concieved notions that, as a person, I often carry. This could be extended to people whom are overweight or people with purple hair and nose rings... not just necessarily skin color.

However... I don't agree that race is necessarily such a bane on the existence of the American people. I believe that there are stark differences in American people, but just as often refer to economic status, geography, background, religion, and age as they do skin color. Consider this. I feel like I have more in common with a middle class black man from the south, in his mid to late 20's, than I ever would with a middle-aged white socialite from New England. Hell, I'm more comfortable around a black person from the south regardless of age than I am anyone from New England!! (I'm a marine... trust me, in Afghanistan there were people from all over the country).
Take that for what it's worth...

Yep! I was one of those (many, I think) who had misconceptions about how AA worked. I wasn't necessarily against it before, but I did question whether it was doing harm right along with the good. Thanks to KMSouthern, I have a much better idea now of how it works, and, as I said in my last post there, I don't have any problems with it. In fact, as I tried to exemplify with the example from the college I went to...it would seem that sometimes maybe more AAP are necessary, not less. I would much prefer colleges to try to change their environment and culture to encourage minorities to come over simply handing out funds to bribe them to come, without making it any better for them once they get there. Further, given the choice, I suspect the minorities would feel the same way.

I was looking at the book you referenced here, and it made me think of a point I would like to add...



I was working with a guy once at a summer job in Texas. He was a black guy...the only one there. No one else really got along with him...but I did. We hung out, I came over to his house (no one else even knew where he lived)...we played basketball down at the gym. One day, when we were playing there, the lights went out. He made a comment about being afraid of the dark, and I kidded him about being the wrong color then. This instantly soured our relationship. Simple joking around, which obviously carried so many different meanings to him. Kidding is usually a sign of camraderie, but clearly we weren't there yet, despite all the other signs that we were. My point here is that I think we'll know when race really doesn't matter..it will be when we can all joke about it with no hard feelings.

Hobbes, please don't misconstrue one person (or a couple) of black people for a whole race. Not all black people are sensitive about their race!!!

I work with some awesome guys and gals of all colors. I happen to also play on a co-ed basketball team, which is comprised nearly completely of black guys and gals ... then there's me. We laugh and joke about my whiteness, even though I'm often the high scorer (or close to it). The talk about how many rebounds I never get, make fun of my shorts, etc. In the same breath, they joke about themselves openly and are not offended when I make little jokes as well... (i.e. I make fun of one guy because he can't jump and he's black, etc)

Think about what you said. Race doesn't matter to many people. Do you ever watch BET's ComicView? I'd say at least 1/4 of the comics makes a joke about white people... does that stop me from watching??? of course not! It's freakin' hilarious!!! At Christmas parties for work there is always a band... which in turn dicates that there are people dancing. You can imagine what funny little comments come from that...

How many little Asian comments have you heard? What about middle-eastern comments? (Heck, there is a character on the Simpsons named ABU that runs a convenience store!)

My point is that for many people... it just isn't a big deal.

My point was that "race" doesn't matter from a "biological" perspective. It's strictly a social/cultural phenomena. I posted medical references on this point. The medical evidence disputes the notion that "blacks and whites" are "different" (which is a notion that you articulated). The only differences are cultural and social. Period.

My other point is that the lines between "races" has been blurred and continues to become blurred with each generation. The insistence on putting people into camps like "black community" and "white America" does not reflect the reality of our multi-ethnic society.

Of COURSE I know that the concept of "race" is important to many, including the author of the post I'm responding to. But, that doesn't change the biological reality and it surely doesn't change what will be required for PROGRESS to occur. Disengaging from this concept gracefully does not include the perpetuation of racist policies like Affirmative Action or social movements that create a self-segregated subculture in parallel with the "dominant" culture. All human beings suffer injustice in one form or another. I think the technical term for those difficulties is called "life". The concept of "racial pride", to address these injustices, both "real" and "imagined", is not a positive thing in my opinion. The stated goal of our nation is that all people be treated equally under the law. There is nothing in there about being guaranteed equal results. As I've pointed out time and time again, the PRACTICAL limitations that stop success in the USA of 2005 have nothing to do with "race". They have everything to do with individual behavior, individual choices, and individual "character".

Putting such importance on something (race) that has no biological significance, that does nothing to bring people together, and that creates animosity and promotes the "Balkanization" of the United States is a concept that should be abandoned. The science of "race" has been discredited. It's time to "move on".

I'm not saying this would be easy. It would be hard. But, we won't progress as a nation until we start moving in that direction.

Good one nighttimer, I applaud these questions. Great for insight...
1. I work with multiple black gentlemen, of whom I also play on sports teams outside the office and hit happy hours, etc a couple of times/week.
However, this is only part of my insight. I also have an adopted sister that is Korean. Having almond shaped eyes in the deep south would often be a reason to harken to racist claims and debate. Trust me, Louisiana (where I as well as my family is from) is far from racially understanding. However, she admittedly has never experienced racism first hand. She was raised in an educated middle class environment, relatively close to a military base. However, as we do, she doesn't see herself as any different (except for the fact that she can eat anything and never gain weight!!!). She's now in college, and spends tons of time with people of all nationalities. It's interesting to see her interact with other people of that age... it doesn't seem to matter to them.
Back to the guys in the office and more of the question at hand. There are two outside sales reps that I play basketball with for a couple of months/year. What I found was they're extremely open to jokes and banter, contrary to what most white people would like to insinuate. What I found is that both have degrees and are successful, but still stay true to their families and friends. They go to Church and spend time doing nearly all of the same things that I do. They both came from modest beginnings, and frankly as much as they don't care for GW, they care nothing for DNC leadership as well...
If I were to make my argument about geography/religion in that I believe that I'd feel more comfortable with a black christian man from Texas than a white Jewish man Boston.

2. Racial Pride??? I don't believe that it should be an issue. The funny thing about race is that no white or black people are even the same color!!! My wife is extremely fair skinned and burns in the sun. I'm olive complected and haven't gotten a real burn in years... "Black" means anything from light tan to dark brown. It can't refer to hair or eye color... because how many of us aren't mixed?? Really... how do we know? Seeing each others as individuals has everything to cultural differences. The way we approach interaction has everything to do with experience. For instance, in NYC, the way they treat strangers or people from other states might be different than they'd be treated in Shreveport, Louisiana.

3. What bugs me most about blacks/whites is racism is a term largely associated with southern white men whom happen to be christian republicans. Think about posts on this board... and how often fingers get pointed in our direction, while people like Bill Clinton (whom I feel is as biggoted as it gets) are touted as champions of the cause. I also deplore the idea that race is discussed as if it's the only division we have. I get tired of hearing about someone's skin color, but see differences on many different levels. People are different economically, geographically, socially, politically, etc.
Let me tell y'all a quick story about a Middle Eastern (admittedly Pakistani) guy my team and I just interviewed today. He was a graduate of Mississippi State, had applicable experience, was legal to work in the states, and seemed like a nice enough fellow. However, he didn't look us in the eyes, didn't answer questions directly, had a weirdly-soft handshake and made us feel all around uncomfortable. Mind you, one of the interviewers was black. I doubt we'll hire this gentleman, but who cares about his skin color... we just wouldn't feel good about working w/ him. Is that a crime???? He surely could claim that. How could we combat that??

I personally believe that, for the most part, people aren't looked at for the tint of their skin. However, I do believe things like accents, attitudes, gestures, clothing, or other cultural nuances can add/detract from an experience. Does that have anything to do with their skin color??? Possibly indirectly.
Content of our Character?.... that's a tough one.
I believe a few things would have to happen:
1. Americans would have to get over the idea that different people are inherently bad. We'd have to get out of our "boxes" and interact with other people. How many times have you said hello to the neighbor or someone in the grocery store... only to get no response???
2. We'd have to come to an understanding that our children need to have ambition, and be instilled with hard work and determination. There's an underlying feeling among many that the next generation is lazy or apathetic. They need to understand that success often comes via the sweat of one's brow... so to speak.
3. We have to drive home accountability, regardless of race or gender, etc. How many times do we hear that someone did something because society forced him to? How many kids really have ADD? We need to come around to the idea that we're ultimately responsible for our own successes and failures, and that blame is a useless noun.