I ask for your kind indulgence as I try to frame the parameters here. It's going to take a bit of explaining.

Why? Because nothing is as polarizing or guaranteed to get a thread locked on America's Debate than debating about race. When blacks and whites (because that's primarily whom we're talking about) talk about race everybody gets anxious and before too long somebody says something that gets somebody else mad.

And then the Moderators come along and lock the thread.

I've been reading a book entitled, Afraid of the Dark: What Whites and Blacks Need to Know About Each Other by Jim Myers and it got me thinking as to why does it have to be so tough to talk about race. Perhaps because most of us already think we know all there is to know on the topic. Most of us are all wrong.

Here's a passage from Myers:

The Mythological Sports Divide

Blacks Whites

fast.......................................slow
foot speed.............................brains
fragile...................................tough
showy...................................reserved
ornate...................................functional
high style...............................low style
talk.......................................action
individuals..............................team players
slam dunk..............................layup

That last one is still very true. I read an interview in Sports Illustrated with famed basketball coach John Wooden and he said while he wouldn't ban the dunk entirely, he does like to see players miss when they dunk.

One more from Myers:

It is likely, then that white Americans by the millions have never particpated in a serious, intense, and honest discussion about race with a black person, because to most white Americans, this is a scary proposition. Most Americans remain wary about it, even if they also believe that blacks and whites should talk more about race.

Whites, in particular, fear that they may say the wrong thing---without intending to do so or knowing what made it wrong (This fear is related to the belief that black people are mysterious and unfathomable; you just can't figure them out.) And when I ask black people how often they discuss racial issues with whites, most say rarely or never, another measure of the current racial dialogue. As a result, both blacks and whites often hold their tongues in each other's presence.

For example, we know from polls that 57 percent of whites believe that "many" or "almost all" black people do not like white people---one good reason why whites might want to avoid discussions. But whites have other reservations, too. They expect the discussion will inevitably focus on black accusations against whites---and whites will be forced to defend the actions of slave owners and segregationists or admit some manner of defeat or inner failings.

Many whites look upon discussions about race as situations where whites cannot fare well, because whites imagine that black people have all the critical advantages:

* Blacks are better prepared. Race is their subject. They have all the expertise.

* Blacks have better arguments, involving obvious wrongs done them in the past.

* Blacks are more practiced at the passionate give-and-take of such discussions.

Part of the problem as I see it is that blacks and whites tend to discuss the same subject differently. Myers refers to Thomas Kochman's Black and White Styles in Conflict which focuses on the racial differences in discourse.

"If black discussion tends to be loud, animated and passionate and white discussion tends to be calm, ordered and dispassionate, the differences are also in line with stereotypes we have about blacks and whites."

"For many black Americans, a sense of feeling and conviction is required to convince listeners you are telling the truth and care about what you are saying. But many white Americans prefer calm, reasoned discourse and are uneasy when the discussion gets too heated. As a result, blacks can wonder if whites who try to sound calm and reasonable are sincere. They suspect duplicity; whites don't seem to be saying anything they really believe in. Meanwhile, whites can worry that blacks who speak with passion are letting their emotions run riot. Maybe they aren't thinking rationally. Maybe they will turn violent if they don't get their way."

According to Kochman, "White culture values the ability of individuals to rein in their impulses. White cultural events do not allow for individually initiated self-assertion or the spontaneous expression of feeling...because white culture requires that individuals check their impulses that come from within, whites become able practitioners of self-restraint. However, this practice has an inhibiting effect on their ability to be spontaneously self-assertive. Consequently whites find themselves at a disadvantage when engaging in debate with blacks."

"Even when whites are a majority in the room, they believe that one powerful black speaker can negate whatever advantages number may bring. And whites are likely to be the majority in the room, a reality that plays out in most integrated situations whites encounter. And this, in turn gives blacks to be wary about joining in a discussion about race, for they can expect to be outnumbered by whites."

"Outnumbered as they usually are, some black participants will wonder if it is wise to speak openly in a integrated discussion about race. Some blacks will decide that silence is the best option, on the theory that you never know how whites will react. Other blacks will choose their words carefully, opting not to say what they might have said in black surroundings."

Still with me? Cool. There aren't enough blacks who post on this board for whites to be outnumbered. If blacks are 13 percent of the population in America, they might be three percent of America's Debate. Even that number might be on the high side.

So can we talk? Can we not fall back on stereotypes and generalizations and assumptions about each other? Can whites and blacks have a honest discussion about race (and what bugs us about it) without getting a thread slammed shut in a week's time?

Let's find out.

Here are the questions for debate (and I hope they evolve as the thread goes on):

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

FINAL PLEA FOR SANITY AND CIVILITY Talking about race is strong stuff. Some of us can do it calmly and rationally and some of us can't wait to roll up our sleeves and rip some poor slob a new one. I've been on both sides. Calm and rational is better. So please---THINK, before you post. I promise to respect your opinion even if I totally disagree with it. Give that same respect to others.

I have high hopes for this thread.

I will point out that it's not entirely black & white. There's quite a few other colors out there, and the lines between them are become less distinct. I personally think this is a good thing, but it's sure to cause problems somewhere down the line, especially to those individuals 'on the line' between colors.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

I am lucky to work as a firefighter. The hours are long, and the nature of the work tends to make the people who work together close, at least more often than they drive people to despise each other. The benefit of that, is that with most of the people I work with, we share a mutual respect, if not an outright affinity. And, for whatever reason, the long hours and late nights seem to make it easier to talk about unconfortable subjects: financial problems, relationship problems, domestic problems, and occasionally, race.

I work in Washington, DC, and have always been assigned to poor, black neighborhoods. Roughly half of my coworkers are black. I don't have many people I consider friends, but some that I do, are black.

I will speak the caveat that all of my black friends (and all my other male friends) are also firefighters. Perhaps, this makes a distinction, but, given the circumstances particular to the employment of my black friends, I don't think so.

I have been surprised to find out how much racism is, or has been, experienced by my black friends, especially considering that most of our management, and our city government, is black. I'm also surprised to find that most of them do not recognize black-on-white racism when I do. I was surprised to find that most of them despise the 'asterisk' mentality, though most of them support affirmative action. (my solution is to move the affirmative action to some point far prior to the decision to hire, but that's a story for a different thread). I have confirmed my suspicion that we are far more alike than we are different, with pretty much the same hopes, fears, and attitudes (but again, we're all in the same profession)

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

I'm iffy on this one. I admit, I see celebrations of 'blackness' as a act of separation, while I generally see celebrations of 'Irishness' as an excuse to drink. I don't think anyone should forget history, the whole history, and see the benefit of cultural events in maintianing and disseminating that history. Racial pride should remain, but it should be behind the pride of belonging to the larger group, Americans. Perhaps we should make emancipation day a celebration of freedom, a day that will always be associated with blacks, but gives everyone a reason to celebrate.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

What bugs me about blacks? The refusal of some to see b-on-w racism as racism.
What bugs me about whites? The refusal of some to see w-on-b racism a racism, and an evil and inefficient thing.
What give me hope? Well, one day, we'll all be muddy brown, but until then, my general optimism, mostly based on the way blacks & whites who know each other interact with and treat each other.

Wow- what a well thought out and well posted subject there NT-

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

I was in the military, and now social services (mental health)- which, in many cases, makes me, the white guy, by far the minority. Tonight, of the 17 poeple doing the same job in my hospital as I, only 2 were white males, 10 black males, and the remainder Phillipino. My relationships are mostly co-worker to co-worker- but frankly, I don't hang out with much of anyone but my little family, as my children are very young and we are very busy. All of our "couple with children" friends are of either interacial marriage or Alaskan native or Black. This is not unusual in Alaska, we are more of a melting pot than nearly anywhere in my experiance.

Growing up in Alaska- most kids here in my generation are military brats. So, the black guys I know have almost precisely the same upbringing as myself. We listened to the same music growing up, ran in the same circles. I didn't know we were SUPPOSED to have some kind of dialogue until a social studies professor announced that we should. So you can say I grew up a bit color blind, and frankly, a little niave about the racial issues in the "lower 48".

I think the most suprising thing to me was the acsension of the word "nigger" as okay language among blacks. My friends didn't use the word- whatever race they were, and it didn't seem to come in vogue here until I was out of the military in the late 80s. I still can't believe that is an okay word to use, for whatever reason.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

I think the line needs to be drawn between "racial pride" and "racism" and "racial awareness". I am Scottish, and fiercely proud of my heritage, wear a kilt without shame and participate in the highland games. Doesn't mean I won't let my daughter marry outside of a Scotsman, or to argue with her about going out with a black man either. I think therein lies the test of racism- would you let your daughter date (or not date someone) based on race?

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

The uncomfortableness as you mentioned at first about discussion issues. REmember the barbershop movie when the guys in there can talk about anything? Friends should be able to have a conversation about contraversial subjects without losing the friendship- and I have seen friendships lost over this. As my grandfather said "Why hate someone based on the color of thier skin when there are so many other valid reasons?"

Children are the key and have always been the key. As intermarriage continues and white children co-opt black culture, I think the line blurs to the point of inconsequence.

Great post NT!

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races?
Blacks - A few old friends, a few co-workers and casual acquaintances, neighbors.
Latino - Friends in Mexico, and instant rapport via language with those in the USA.
Asian - mostly co-workers, a few neighbors.
One very dissonant thing with me and "other races" is that I have several very close (white) friends who are at least moderately racist. It has been embarassing at times, once a friend said something very inappropriate at my own home, with other (black) friends there. But, that's just part of history, when you grow up in Chicago - most of my generation of white friends "white-flighted" out of neighborhoods, so they got this stuff from a very early age. Hope we are the last generation with this nonsense.

What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?
What always comes as a surprise to me is the lack of standard English even among upper-middle-class black friends. I had always figured that this was a little more of a class thing than a racial thing, but am proven wrong quite often. I have friends that still "axe" a question or "I be doin'" something, and it's always a little embarassing for me. That said, when we are both just chillin' the slang / ebonics / whatever flows from both sides and that is all good.

What else came as a surprise was that 4 of my close (black) neighbors gave $500 - $2000 to Al Sharpton and / or Carol Mosely-Braun. I was floored. Chicago is a Democrat city, but wow. I haven't had the guts to bring this up, mostly because I felt guilty about using the fundrace website and entering my zip code...


2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?
I don't think so. I'm very tolerant of other races, as well as proud of my own (scandinavian) ethnic heritage. As a Spanish speaker, I'm probably as aware of Mexican history as most immigrants, and I feel something akin to "pride" for that race as well.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"
I'm a quiet person, and the loud & boisterous black conversational style drives me nuts. Yes, loud white people bug me too, but this is a true stereotype if there ever was one. Screaming, laughing at top volume, body language, it's all very different, and not a style I'm comfortable with at all.

What bugs me about whites is when they try to 'front' black speech to black people. If I were black, this would drive me nuts, especially when the white guy has no clue. I once had an (asian) boss ask a (black) co-worker "is that CP time?" You know those Southwest ads - "want to get away?"

What gives me hope is the fact that my one little corner of the universe is evolving as an integrated neighborhood, in one of the most segregated cities in America (Chicago). It's building from the ground up, vs. gentrifying, so there is no baggage, just a bunch of new people buying new houses, moving in and then finding out their neighbor is black / white / jewish / asian / gay / whatever.

Also this article may be cause for hope... the answer seems to be education of course.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

My wife is Filipino, my son, of course, interracial. More than half my close friends are hispanic, black or pacific islander/asian. I lived in a lily white community before moving to Houston, Texas a quarter century go, my biggest surprise is how little difference their is between the races. Basically if someone works at the same job, or lives in the same neighborhood as you, you share much in common. I think the major difference is an urban culture that rejects certain social standards found in suburbia.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

Racial pride seems to be most common among the groups who have so far "lost" in the socio-economic game. You don't hear of English-American pride much. I look at the development of racial pride as a standard reaction to discrimination, either in the past or present. I don't think it has to be eliminated. I do think people should focus on their individual accomplishments and relationships.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

I think what bothers me about any individual is when they refuse to recognize that life is 90% what you do with the cards you are dealt. Life is not fair. We are not all born into similar circumstances. Does some discrimination exist? of course. Is there an exxageration of present levels of discrimination? IMO, Yes. If there is a hurdle on the track, you jump over it. You don't stop and cry.

I guess I seldom talk about race with my wife, or son, or friends, because in our relationships race simply does not matter.

I work as a realtor and I have never had a single native-born client request not being shown homes in areas that have a high population of hispanics and/or blacks. This frequently occurs when I have Asian born or Middle Eastern born clients. I think we have come a long way.

Had an African-American literature class in college. A lot of it could be considered a bit depressing stuff. One of the other two white kids in class confessed he felt a bit guilty at times when reading the slave era writings. The teacher must have noticed my look of disapproval because she asked me what my thoughts were. I basically replied I had enough to feel guilty about based on my own actions and did not feel any collective guilt from what some other people did who only have nothing in common with me except my skin color. I guess what it comes down to is the great majority of whites don't identify themselves as so. Racial identification is mainly a byproduct of discrimination and a refusal by the dominant group to allow assimilation.

Since about fourth grade, the people I considered my best friends have alway been white, mostly because of where I went to school.

During this time I found very little evidence of the racial stereotypes that are so popular.

I believe most of the undesirable traits people note about other races are universal.

The greatest one at work here is a sort of intellectual/social cowardice.

It not that whites are afraid of discussing race in particular, I notice most people are afraid to discuss anything controversial.

This is, of course, very dangerous because it is the controversial aspects of life that often need discussion the most.

The reason for the perception is because it is clearly the party that feels it has been wronged which will try the most to engage in a meaningful discussion.

The party which feels it is not aggrieved simply waits on the defensive.

By and large, those whites that do participate is race debates are very defensive.

Rather than ever consider that their is something wrong with the social "system" which they largely control blame is deflected.

"Blacks, Hispanics etc. just aren't playing the 'game' right".

What people need to understand is that life is not a game. Saying "life is unfair" should never be the end of the debate. Unfairness is the problem, the purpose of debate to to find a solution.

carlitoswhey made a great point about education, the problem is that America's education system is broken, especially is the communities where most blacks live.

They are woefully underfunded and mismanaged.

Predictably the powers that be look for cheap solutions. Uniforms, conformity, other fig leaves. When the solution is better teachers and better facilities.


I'll end this post for now, (lunch time is rolling round) with a plea for an end to the denial.

This is not a game, there are real problems in America's social system that need to be confronted.

Ethnic Group Number Percent
African American 126 13%
Hispanic 333 34.4%
White 428 44.2%
Asian/Pacific Islander 81 8.4%
Native American 1 0.1%

Total Students 969 100%
Economically Disadvantaged 296 30.5%
Limited English Proficientcy 165 17%

Program Number Percent
Bilingual 156 16.1%
Gifted & Talented 13 1.3%
Special Education 119 12.3%

Staff Statistics

Teacher's Experience Number Percent
Over 20 years 4 6.8%
10 - 20 years 17 26.2%
6 - 10 years 12 18.5%
1- 5 years 23 35.4%
Beginning Teacher 8 12.3%

Total Teachers 65 100%

Male Teachers 2 3.1%
Female Teachers 63 96.9%
School Support 4
School Admin 3
Teacher Student Ratio 14.9 (student/teacher)
Teacher Tenure Average 4.2 (years)


TAKS

Group ELA Math Tested
ALL 90% 86% 79%
Africa American 76% 69% 59%
Hispanic 92% 80% 73%
White 94% 92% 87%
Asian/Pacific Islander 86% 97% 83%
Economically Disadvantaged 87% 79% 68%
Male Students 88% 86% 78%
Female Students 93% 86% 80%

This is the statistics on Mayde Creek Elementary School located a few miles from where I live. This is a small sample, but the scores are typical whites and asians scoring highest, hispanics scoring inbetween and blacks scoring lowest in the same school

While I see little difference between the blacks, whites and hispanic adults in my area, clearly something is amiss here. Something that must be coming from inside the home to affect the children of blacks and hispanics adversely. Recent immigration and the lack of english inside the home could explain the difference in hispanic children scores. What attributes the low scores among black children?

I think this is when blacks go on the defensive. When evidence contrasts their blind dogma that the problem is all in the schools and a great deal of it does not come from the home.

Notice the economically disadvantaged scores are higher than the African-American scores. It is just not the economic situation inside the home either.

This would be where the confusion of cause and effect comes in.

Many of the problems in the home are caused by the socio-economics difficulties many blacks face.

I can tell you with certainty that there is nothing different about black culture that encourages unstable homes. If anything marriage is stressed in mainstream black culture, and yet it continues to fails at an even higher rate than the abysmal national average.

I pointed to education first, second I point to drug use and the woefully (I use this word a lot) underpoliced black neighborhoods.

I do believe that blacks hold a lot of the blame for the effects of drug use. That said there's a lot the government should do to help.

The single school example is interesting, but on a wider scale most black children do attend decidedly inferior schools.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

I worked on integrated faculties most of my teaching career, especially after I went into special education in 1975, so I have had "exposure" to many ethnic groups. With exceptions, I found teachers who were interested in their kids regardless of IQ, ethnic background, socio-economic status, religious beliefs or other surface issues.

Since retiring I have kept in touch with two black women. One was my assistant for eight years. I once worked for H. & R. Block and did her tax return this year as in the past.

The other was my co-teacher my last three years in the classroom. She had a doctor’s appointment and needed to talk to someone about some depressing developments in public education. We had lunch last week.

When one retires, they often lose contact with people. Occasionally I'll see former colleagues. Regardless of ethnic background it's always good to see old friends.

Occasionally during my 25 years in special education someone in the district would use some sort of racial epithet. One case involved a white teacher’s description of gospel music. Because of this the district made it mandatory that all district employees would receive six hours a year of diversity training--a requirement that went on for about five years. This may not have been a bad idea in and of itself, but the district botched the project. I hate to use blanket terms like “everyone” but I can’t remember anyone saying anyone positive about the “diversity training.” The problem was that the district scripted the topics from the administration building and that presenters in the local building had to follow the script. Scripted learning removes creativity and the sharing of thoughts and feelings of the participants. Even those in charge of presenting the script, called trainers—a word that I literally hate in that I think people should be educated rather than “trained” to jump through a fiery hoop like a circus tiger. Often presenters appeared lethargic and as anxious to just get through it as were those in the captive audience. In my opinion, scripted learning is an abomination whether used with students or as a professional development tool. Another thing that united faculties against cultural diversity training was that we didn’t get extra pay for having to endure the boring sessions.

Although there were problems, I found teachers of all ethnic groups united in their desire to serve kids and in tackling the common problems like salary, health insurance, class load, etc. One reason I don’t like the idea of merit pay, is that somewhere down the line it will probably create racial tensions.

I've noticed that my explanations of certain behaviors in psychological terms have gone unnoticed, but I'll try to explain this in psych. terms anyway.

This exact phenomena has been noticed and recorded across the nation for several years. Not only is it seen in academia (more white students on average complete 4 year degrees than blacks) and sports, but almost anywhere a stereotype is found. This effect has been names Stereotype Threat and studied by C. Steel at Stanford.

The general idea is that if a certain stereotype exists and a person is aware of this stereotype, they will perform worse on tests which they believe are diagnostic of an ability. Here's an example that is usually studied:

A test is given to two groups of black and white students: for one group the tester states that this test is difficult and that it doesn't reflect intellectual ability. the second group is given and the tester states that this test will reflect intellectual ability. Results?

Blacks and whites do equally well in the first condition, but whites out perform black in the second. The general theory is that people become worried that they'll prove or further a stereotype and in turn compensated cognitive functioning to they're worrying and do more poorly. So this phenomenon could be at work in the TAKS, since it has been seen in other standardized tests like the SAT and GRE.

Ok, now on to the questions.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

I have mainly white friends because I attend Purdue which is (as described by some) a sea of white. I do have some black, asian, and hispanic friends and try not judge anyone by anything but they're character, although that's hard to do sometimes.

Mainly I have found that all races are more alike than different. It seems like we all hold the same ideals and want the same things, but that people of different races do small things differently which then get magnified and made out to be these huge differences. I think one problem is people become wrapped up in stereotypes and try to personify some of them (obviously not the negative ones).

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

I think the bigger problem is certain racial stigmas prevent people from seeing others as individuals. I don't think racial pride should be a problem as long as we all realize that we're all almost exactly the same. "There's more difference within races than between races." Although I admit, that's a hard concept to understand and embrace when it seems like there's so many differences. I think racial pride could be compared to state pride. I'm damn proud to be a Texan and I love my state, but I also realize that it's only part of something much bigger. Now to get all sentimental:

There's only one race, the human race.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

What bugs me most about blacks is their seemingly innate physical abilities (I wish I had ups) and the fact that they seems to need to have a front of intimidation at all times. I'm sure they're more but I can't really think of them. I respect the passion which black people seem to have for whatever they're discussing/doing.

What bugs me about most whites is their seemingly infinite capacity to blame other races for their situation and problems with life. I'm sure other races do it too, but I hear it mostly from whites. Also, I don't like how some whites look down upon other races simply because we're in the majority, which somehow makes us better.

What gives me hope? That's a good question, I think SWM28WDC put it best:

Or as they say in Brazil - coffee, cappuccino, coffee with cream, espresso...

I have a fairly large amount of black friends, and a fairly large amount of white friends and a few Asian friends. As I am a quarter African American, my Dad is half black, so I have interracial encounters all the time. I get along with all races, I've got no problems with anybody.

There's nothing wrong with racial pride, just as there's nothing wrong with cultural pride or pride in one's heritage. The problem arises when someone looks down on another race.



White People: Get over your fear of other races. A lot of my white friends are...apprehensive around some black people or Latinos.

Black People: You're just as intelligent as white people...stop promoting anti-intellectualism, you're only hurting yourself.

My hope that we will one day be judged by the content of our character is uplifted everytime I see my friends of different races hang out, it's a beautiful thing.

CP

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races?

I am a product of white suburbia but I was born in the mid-1960s. The more overt racism was gone and my parents who had lived in different types of segregation from different sides of the Mason-Dixon line. My parents parented in a way that never made reference to race. Their friends were predominantly white and they did not have many. My father is an avid golfer and always tried to have us around what he would call "quality people." We belonged to country clubs wherever we lived and they had their own informal (economic) or formal (but not discussed) (screening) systems that kept the clubs predominantly white.

Whenever I had a friend who had weak manners and shoddy clothing my father disliked me being around them. He was not aggressive about it, but the message was clear. He thought that I should be around the "right kind of people." None of this, from what I could tell, was overtly racist.

My mother is more practical minded and was from below the mason dixon line. She had sever reservation when it came to dating people of other races because she did not want her grandchildren facing racism. She felt marriage is difficult enough without bringing race into it.

I think both of my parents really wanted me to look up the social ladder, regardless of skin color. They were not aggressive social climbers but they saw the value in making sure their was enough money around first and then setting other goals for personal happiness.

Yet we moved around quite often. Think Remember the Titans here. Did you notice how the kids who interacted most easily with the blacks in the school were newcomers? I don't think this was because the were from places that were not racist. I think it was because they were new and not set in the social grid of the local community. I moved often growing up, and often my friends were from outside of the mainstream. My best friends growing up were more often non-WASP than WASP. For whatever reason of my five closest friends growing up three were Asian (Chinese, Taiwanese, Filipino) and one was Jewish.

Yet in this I never had any close friends who were black and I never lived near any significant African American communities.

Race in this country is black white.

I have had close relations with hispanics. In the modern world our family has become increasingly multicultural. My first wife was hispanic, my mother's third and present husband is hispanic, and my brother's first wife was Asian. As for my brother and my failed marriages I don't think race/ethnicity had anything to do with it unless it was my sister-in-law worried about her white husband.

I have lived in the south for many years of my life. I graduated from high school in suburban Atlanta, I lived in Tuscaloosa, Alabama from 1994 to 1999, and I have lived in the Nashville area since. I have lived more in the world where racial issues are more literally black and white in the last decade.

I have had good working relationships , have had consistent tennis partners, and have had some increased social contacts with blacks, but there is still an "other" divide that exists. This is in no small part because de facto segregation still exists.

I lived in a neighborhood for three years that was predominantly black and hispanic. Two of four immediate neighbor families were black. I never felt any great divide but never felt any great closeness. Yet I am not Overland Sailor, I am modern in the sense that I don't really ever get to know my neighbors very well.

I met my present wife here in 1999 and "our" daughter who has only known me as a father is mixed. I have some white angst about raising a mixed daughter in a 100% white family and in white suburbia. But when kindergarten arrived this year, we picked up and moved to the best school we could find, departing the metro Nashville school district.

What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

In dealing with blacks I have generally confirmed the feeling that blacks see racism as THE defining issue in their lives and that whites generally see racism as a thing that used to exist.

What has been the greatest surprise in my live is that although i tend to seek out other cultures and ways as a matter of course, I have never connected closely with any African Americans, and I always feel like a poser or tourist in my interactions with blacks.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

I think cultural pride can be a wonderful aspect of life. I love experiences like the "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" emergences in other cultures. We are all better equipped to live in an increasingly multi-cultural world if we have practicing rituals from parts North, South, East, West, and Middle East among us and the sense of other fades.

I think ethnic/racial nationalism is the force that goes to far and is one of the most sinister/dangerous forces ever to hit the world.

Celebrating one's inheritances is an act of self-love, embracing those that live among us is a healthy act of growth.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

I think whites are the most annoying in their race actions. Too many of us ask awkward questions and stammer into phrases like you people. We have a hard time seeing the complexity of the present world that makes affirmative action a remedy not for slavery but for more recent acts. Their is not enough care among the haves (understandable in the sense that most of us almost always belive in the position that aligns with our economic self-interest) to genuinely try to create a level playing field.


What bugs me most about blacks. I don't know if this is something that is my fault or not. I find it very difficult to have a genuine conversation. Nighttimer's book quotations shed some light on this. I tend to try to approach serious conversations in a manner without animation. I think the black/white racial divide is THE most serious issue in our society. But I cannot have a good conversation with blacks about my responsibilities as a white man with very little real knowledge of the issues facing my daughter as she grows up in the South. My advice seems to always start with just be yourself and everything will turn out fine and it always seems to end with "well you will never truly be able to understand because you can never be black."

When I taught a class at Tennessee State University ( predominantly black university) I felt very awkward. I found very little engagement in the course material, a very poor attendance rate, and almost unmanageable make-up exam problem, and the worst cheating issues I had ever dealt with. The bulk of the material seemed to be dismissed as white history and then there would be pretty active engagement in issues of black history such as slavery, the Civil War, Reconstruction/Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights era. I had some more lively discussions about my presentation of Malcolm X and black power. A student had confused me about my presentation of the facts and I retracted some material that I had presented, but when I went home I found I was closer to being right than the student. (Malcolm X having left the Nation of Islam and forming a separate group and being assassinated by Black Muslims.)

Sorry this is a windy, unfocussed litany of things of race in my life.

I have come full course in my life and I find myself back in a predominantly white suburb just like those I grew up in. I would love better diversity in my community, but the long term safety of the community and the real estate values as well as the health of the school system overrode my desire to remain in a diverse community. (That and the fact that my commute has been cut in half)

I'm outta here.

A few problems here. First, the scores I cited were from tests given to third graders. I seriously doubt if they knew that scores would be divided up by race and ethnic category. Second, If this stereotype bias truly existed why does not Steel and others argue that we no longer divide SAT tests, etc. by race. That way the test takers would be free from worrying if they would prove a stereotype. If third graders are worried about proving stereotypes on tests we do have a problem. I think the real problem we got is that too much politics are involved and studies are designed to prove a preconceived idea.

I beg to differ.

Part of the problem is that too little politics is involved. Politics is one of the chief methods of handling difficulties on a mass level. Properly applied politics could really erase the giant gaps in education for blacks in this country. To say nothing of the apparent dearth of blacks in many levels of elected office.

It is the insistence on small-scale solutions and other such nickel-and-dime thinking that holds process.

It just another example of the denial problem.

There is no problem with the system, there is no need for change etc etc.

Speaking as a black man who for his safety and the safety of others, avoid sporting events like the plague...

I assure you this is not a universal trait, there are clumsy black people, I preside over the club meetings.

This is just to answer Hugo's post here and not to derail the topic. First, I'm not sure how young people can be before this effect is noticed. People can hold stereotyped beliefs and not know it. Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if Steel et. al. have suggested that the SAT and other similar tests stop dividing them by race.

Let me try to get on topic.From:

ADAPTATION TO MINORITY STATUS AND IMPACT ON SCHOOL SUCCESS
Author:
John U. Ogbu



Later, same article:



Later, again same article:



If blacks and hispanics would just learn to trust us white people. Of course I can't blame them for their distrust, but it seems to me it does have a negative impact.

So far, so good. But where are all the women at in this thead?



"White people's houses smell like mayonnaise."

That's not true. White people when wet don't smell like a dog either, but these are some of the things I once thought were true. It takes a long time to unlearn some of the stupid things adults tell gullible little kids. What I thought was deep knowledge was only shared ignorance being passed along.

I have been working with, socializing, hanging out or going to bed with white people for a good portion of my life. I thought that meant I understood them far better than they could possibly understand me. More fool me.

Some of my best friends are white. Cliched, but true. They seemed to respect me for my intellect first and later for what I could share about being black---as if I really knew anything. One or two told me I didn't remind them of most blacks they knew. I think they meant it as a compliment. I remember a high school teacher giving me a copy of Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil and another book by Jean-Paul Sarte. I thought I was an bourgeois intellectual for the rest of the school year.

Invariably, I learned to resent white people because they seemed so oblivious to the burdens of blackness and the privileges that come with whiteness. The high point of this resentment came during the time of the Atlanta child murders that occurred between 1979 and 1981. I was attending college at Ohio State University and many black students began wearing green ribbons in a show of solidarity with the families of the murdered and missing black children. I had to take off the ribbon because I couldn't stand white students asking me why I was wearing a green ribbon months after St. Patrick's Day.

That's when my resentment began to curdle into a deep and seething anger and hatred at the appalling stupidity and insensitivity I saw in white people. I hated having to explain myself. I felt they should know what the ribbon symbolized. At one point I went to talk to a psychologist at the school about my racial rage. I got over that anger, but I never forgot how comfortable it can be to float through life as a white person and be oblivious to the pain of non-white people.

This confirmed my belief that white people in America don't HAVE to be aware of their whiteness. Plus, it hammered home that unless black people shout at them, it's pretty hard to get and hold their attention.

What I have learned is whites want the exact same things that I do. A job they don't hate getting up in the morning to go to, enough money to meet their needs and satisfy a few of their wants, a better life for their kids than they had and to be pretty much left alone to live their lives as they see fit. I dated white girls, hung out with white guys drinking and getting hign and arguing passionately about racial issues to the wee hours of the morning. More often than not I was teaching far more than learning---or so I led myself to believe.

I think black people would dearly love not to be focused on their blackness, but at one time or another every white friend has had what I called, "a white moment" where they asked something--usually with total innocence and absent of malice--a REALLY STUPID QUESTION about black people to me, as if the color of my skin made me a designated spokesman for 20 million black folks. Agh--I hated those "white moments." And I still do.

Maybe that's why some African-Americans wear their race on their shoulders. At the end of the Miles Davis CD, Jack Johnson there's a spoken interlude by the actor Brock Peters as Miles solos in the atmosphere.

I'm Jack Johnson. I'm the heavyweight champion of the world! I'm black! They never let me forget it. I'm black all right! I'll never let them forget it.

I identify with that remark.

My very best friend when I was in the Air Force was a white boy from Florida named Allen. He was as "country" as the day is long. Most of the other brothers in the base dormitory didn't like him. He played Jimmy Buffet albums and he didn't back down from anyone though he was probably barely 160 lbs soaking wet. We got along great. I'd always go to his room and smoke dope and I'd explain to him why Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X weren't troublemakers. We both loved rock n' roll and would argue whether the Rolling Stones were better than Led Zeppelin. For fun we'd go out to truck stops on the freeway, walk in and load up the jukebox with all the country music and R n' B they had and laugh while all the truckers glared at us. I'm amazed we never got our butts kicked.

I wonder sometimes where Allen is now. I wonder even more if we would have anything in common today.

A British perspective... First off, some facts. Despite perceptions aomng most of the British public that something like a quarter of the UK population is black or Asian (which in the UK context means "South Asian" or Indian, racially), even with current (perceived high) levels of legal and illegal immigration, only about 8% of people in Britain are any kind of non-white Briton, including other white nationalities and their offspring.

The majority of these minorities (if you follow me) live in big cities - mostly London, Birmingham, Manchester and the Leeds-Bradford conurbation.

So it's "easier" for white Britons to live their whole lives and never meet a black, brown person, or any other shade than pale pink. And for the same reason, it's proportionately harder for blacks and Asians to self-segregate, except in small numbers in the biggest cities, than it is for blacks in America.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?
Day-to-day, in the town where I live at the moment, I have next to no regular contact with any black people at all. Primarily this is because this town has a lower-than-average black population (maybe in the high hundreds, out of 170,000). That said, a black family has lived on my street since before I came here, and I'm on nod-and-smile terms with them, no less than the Italian family two doors down from them, or the French women who share a house four doors up from me, or any of the white Britons in the rest of the street (and rather more than most of them, who I still don't really know even that well).
I lived in London for a few years, and for most of that time two of my four housemates were ethnically Indian, though both were born & raised in the UK. They were also the ones I got on best with, which I'd say for the most part was to do with them both being very attractive single women - I had a relationship with one of them for a year or so. (Nighttimer already knows my fondness for sloe-eyed brunettes, which we appear to share .) On that note, in my youth, - when I was good-looking enough to get away with it! - I had, shall we say, short-term intimate encounters (oh, all right - one-night stands! ) with black, Asian, Indian, and Latin women, as well as white ones. Can't complain. *ahem*
At my workplace there there were two Asian women, and one Anglo-Malaysian guy. Prior to that, I'd worked in Birmingham, where there were rather more black or Asian people. On reflection, this reflected a slightly racist hiring policy - the London offices were the corporate HQ, and most of the non-whites in Birmingham were in less senior roles; all the managers were white there. However, if any of the non-whites were annoyed by this state of affairs, they kept it to themselves. Most of the were quite young and more interested in having fun than carving a career.
My hobby in amateur theatre did bring me into contact with blacks in my town a while ago when I was a volunteer covering the bar & fire marshalling at a Black History month event just under a year ago - some of you may remember me posting about it.
In childhood, my "best friend" in kindergarten, to the extent any four-year-old can have a best friend, was a black girl called Rachel. (It's still my favourite girl's name, though that has as much to do with Blade Runner perhaps). Her colour never really registered, she was just pretty and funny and nice. She was in foster care with a white family; this being the early 70s, nobody really worried about placing a black child with a white family.
Yet a few years later, after Rachel's family moved away, I remember a heated playground discussion with another boy where I was convinced that Sesame Street was made in Africa because that's where all the black people live.
Which made me think that racism, and even race itself, is a learned concept. We may be born white, or black, but we have to learn to think of ourselves that way, and to think of people of different colours in different ways.
I'm also reminded of a story told me by one of my London flatmates who told me that her family (parents from Pakistan) used to go on caravan holidays in North Wales when she was a child. North Wales was, and is, one of the "whitest" parts of the UK. She remembers people stopping in the street to stare at them as they drove or walked past - with curiosity, not malice. They simply had never seen brown-skinned people with their own eyes, much less a whole family of them. She would say that they got treated very well once the locals got over the surprise, noticeably so compared to white English (or South Welsh) visitors.
What did I learn that comes as a surprise? It's a little earthy, but I like the smell of other racial groups more than I like the smell of my own. I'm not talking about the smell of stale swaeat - that's not great on anyone, but I like the slight spiciness of Indians, and I REALLY like the sweet muskiness of black people. Sitting in a small, hot theatre full of black families last summer was not fun for me just because it was a good show.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?
I am not sure. I would like to think not, but too often pride in our own group spills over, or is predicated on, contempt for other groups. I think this is particularly tue for white people in countries where they are already dominant.
A small parable - in Britain, there are four native nationalities. English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh. Unification into a single "external" nation required a wider construction of "British" too. For the Celtic nations, it has always been possible to think of nationality (it's been a millennium or more since there were distinct races, though if you know what you're looking for you can still tell a Welshman or woman just by looking; it's more down to body language, though) as a hierarchical thing. For example, I am Welsh, British, and European - in that order. A Scot is likely to do something similar, though is more likely to miss out "British". For the Northern Irish, "British" has loyalist connotations, but there are still hierarchies.
Because the English have always been more numerous, and because historically they were the most militarily successful, it was eay for them to think that British and English were essentially interchangeable concepts (there is no English national anthem - they sing the British national anthem at sporting events). Now that the Celtic nations are exerting greater autonomy - with their own tailored forms of national government, the English seem somewhat confused. So far, Englishness as a discrete concept seems only able to express itself through the national soccer & rugby teams.
When it goes beyond that, it struggles to define itself as anything other than "British but without the Welsh, Scots, or Irish", because the English have never had to think about their own identity, and their thinking about other people's identity never needed to go beyond "not one of us".
I think this is a good analogy for Anglo-Saxon America. Hyphenate Americans can define themselves according to their ancestry, looks, culture, or what-have you. But ordinary Anglo-Celts who still make up the largest population segment cannot really do that. Every they think of that is "theirs" is so fundamentally American that all the other groups share in it, with as much claim on it as they have. The only easy way to assert racial pride for this group is to denigrate the pride of other groups.
Either that or trace back ancestry to groups that do have a clear identity (which Welsh Americans haven't really started doing yet, but may get around to), and, as I've alredy mentioned, "Anglo Americans" can't really do that, because the English don't yet know how to define themselves.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"
The single thing that bugs me most about all races is the assumption that someone's race is always the reason for the way they are treated. If I am treated badly, it's because I'm white/black/Asian/Indian/Arab/etc. If someone else is treated well, it's because they are ...
Sometimes it's because of racism, but I'd bet it's as often to do with stupidity, incompetence, or some venality other than outright racial hatred. Indeed, I think that too often, those crying "race!" forget that all prejudice has it's roots in ignorance. Not all ignorance is wilful, and rather too much is indulged (especially in anti-intellectual cultures like ours), but it isn't usually intentional or malicious. If you want promotion or a pay rise - ask for it. Don't sit around waiting for "them" to treat you the way you want to be treated, especially if you haven't specificially defined that way, otherwise you'll get treated the same way everyone else who sits around waiting for a pay-rise or a promotion (or a date or a salesman to come over) - by being ignored.

This cuts both ways. Much working class white racism in the UK, and much of the reason for the electoral success of racists like the British National Party (BNP), comes from a perception that "Pakis" or "asylum seekers" are treated more favourably, especially in social housing. It's not fair, because so-and-so has been on the waiting list for a new flat for six months, and those (insert derogatory racial epithet of choice) got straight in.
A moment's consderation might lead one to suppose that of course a council is going to house a homeless family over one with a roof over their head that wants an extra bedroom, but that moment never quite gets considered.
This is understandable, up to a point, but mainstream parties shy away form explaining it, leaving the ground open for extremists with a racist agenda from exploiting the fact that there just isn't enough social (or any other kind - hence price rises) housing in the UK anyway for their own nefarious ends.

Whew! long post - sorry.

White people's houses smell like mayonaise??? Too funny.

When I was really young (5 or 6 maybe)—I knew this little girl who was black and really pretty. And I got it into my head that all I wanted was, myself, to be black like her. I used to pretend to be black all the time. It drove my parents crazy. I think my Mom didn’t know what to do – so she told me I shouldn’t want to be black because then my hair would be really “wiry”. I can’t tell you how long this stuck with me. I just had this image of black people’s hair being like little wires (obviously, I didn’t understand what “wiry” meant).

As an adult, I probably fall into the camp of white people that doesn’t understand why black people seem to define themselves as black first. I am not sure that this comes from me simply not understanding their experiences though. I tend to be the type of person that full well understands that life ain’t fair and there is not a darn thing we can do about it—so we have to get over it. Nobody knows what kind of hand they are going to get dealt in life and we just have to make the best of it and try and get as far as we can in life. I think this kind of general attitude just translates over into how I view the black experience.

I am all for trying to correct some of the imbalances and unfairness if possible. But, for example, I don’t support affirmative action because it only helps minorities with hardships. Lots of white people are poor and don’t have advantages, why should they not be given preferences too? I would support affirmative action if it helped ALL people who were born into difficult circumstances. I think Black people forget that there are lots of white kids growing up in homes where there is no emphasis on higher education, no financial support for college etc. I happen to have come from one of them. Growing up, I remember my dad always telling me how when I graduated from high school he would set me up with a great secretary’s job at his company. I put myself through college and even then when I told my parents I was going to major in French—they were shocked and said I had to be more practical. Not all white people come from more privileged circumstances and not all black people suffer economic disadvantage. I also think affirmative action does minorities a disservice because people will always assume that they got where they got only because of affirmative action.

I am a true believer in talking about race relations in a very honest way. The problem as I see it is that both sides tip toe around the issue for fear of offending the other side. That just aggravates the situation in my opinion.

What bothers me most about White people?

Easy – the ones who give a bad rap to all the rest of us. The true racists. And I know they exist. Although I believe they are in a small minority today. The only experience I ever had with true racism was when I was in college. My roommates parents were visiting for the weekend. We lived in an apartment complex and our neighbors were two black guys. Well, one day, our neighbor had locked himself out of his apartment and I was going to tell him to come inside and wait in our apartment till his roommate got back. Well my roommate's mom immediately nixed this idea because he was black and I was APPALLED. I will never forget that.

What bothers me most about Black people?

That many seem to define themselves as Black first, before anything else. They seem to cling to the past and this frustrates me because I believe we need to get past all that and we can’t if we are always using the 1950s as a point of reference.

Overall, I think we need to talk openly and honestly more about race relations. And I think this is a good thread because it is getting people to do just that.

I'll put this in the "what confuses you" portion of the questions.

This remark reminded me of one stereotype which I'd be interested in discussing (especially since there are no women here) - the black-man-as-womanizer stereotype. Jack Johnson was certainly an example - married 3 white women and squired many others, to much controversy during the time. He was ultimately imprisoned for one reason or another, but I bet the white women thing didn't help... Seems that white men have always feared black men stealing their women. Question - Do black men adopt this persona because of the stereotype or is it merely that society takes particular note of this stereotype when its personified? I think it's especially relevant given the mainstreaming of the "pimp" culture - from Snoop Dogg to 50 Cent to even Kid Rock.

I'm thinking Jesse Jackson, Mel Reynolds, R Kelly as prime examples. Of course, there are many examples of philandering white men (presidents Clinton, Lyndon Johnson, Kennedy), but they are never cast in such a harsh light, and never deemed to be "conforiming to the racial norm" which would be said of an unfaithful or womanizing black man.

And please please please everybody - I'd happily discuss any white stereotype - no rhythm, slow, whatever. I'm not looking to start trouble, I'd just really love a black point of view on this. Every "white moment" I've had asking a black friend about this results in us just cutting up on each other. As an aside, I once hosted a radio show that followed a black DJ who called himself "The Mandingo" - really added to my appreciation of slow jams - Curtis Mayfield, the Isleys, Freddie Jackson, etc.

I don't have any sources on this but I have a pretty good guess.
I would say that just after the civil war and the freeing of the slaves is where this one came from. Scare tactics used to justify not treating black men as equals seemed to involve rumor and innuendo designed to keep the mind set of black men as savages. I would imagine like all bored housewives through out time the black male became the latest in a long line of forbidden fruit.
I wouldn't say it was widespread but probably just enough that when added to rumor and the inevitable insecurity that some men seem to always have about their "manhood' as well as the need of some people to have complete dominance over their partners it just became part of urban legend. I would also venture that black men being men, that many wouldn't waste a good opportunity to exploit an opening proven to increase the odds of conquest. So they have definetly protected the image of the "Smooth Operator".

I would also venture that it also relates to what has already been mentioned that blacks are stereotypically considered loud and proud. A stereotype of white males seems to be reserved and restrained to the point of prudishness or more bluntly--Dullsville.
There has always been the private male joke about becoming everything a woman says she wants in a man just to have her leave you for the guy you used to be.


Just a guess.

First, a little background about my racial identity: to this day, most of the time I am blissfully unaware of the color of my skin. I'm much more likely to notice if I walked into a room full of black people, than if I walked into a room full of white people. The last time I thought about it, I was at a chinese buffet-style restaurant with my little brother, when all of a sudden I looked around and it struck me that we were the only black people in the entire restaurant. It bothered me slightly for the rest of the meal for reasons I can't quite articulate, but it was nothing that really got under my skin, pun truly not intended. I think about race and issues of race a lot, but there's always been this sort of cognitive dissonance with me where it seems like all my observations about racial interactions are made of other people, and I don't quite include myself in the whole "us versus them" struggle. It hasn't always been quite that way. When I was younger, kindergarten-early grade school age, I was a loner, so race never really was on my mind. In kindergarten I attended a very small, overwhelmingly white Montessori school, and in first and second grade an elementary school that was predominantly black. I never interacted much with other people, and so I still never really was aware of the differences in which people regard each other. But it was more of that cognitive dissonance, because when I go back through early stories that I've written (I wanted to be a writer from nearly the time I was born up until my mid-high-school years) all of my main characters were light-skinned with blue or green eyes, and with long straight hair. Every. Single. One. The first time I was consciously aware of my own race, was in third grade. There was only one other black girl in the entire grade, named Jamie, and everyone always got us confused - which is actually understandable because we did look somewhat alike. But I was the only black person in my class, and in my desk group sat a pretty white girl, with dirty blond hair and blue eyes named Julie. And thus began my conscious, what I call "white envy." I couldn't actually ever be like Julie, so I tried all sorts of things to try to get her to be my friend and like me. They all failed, and eventually I started loathing the color of my skin. I still remember finding the crayon in the box that most closely matched my skin tone (burnt sienna I think), taking them to the trash can and breaking them. And even to this day, looking at the features of the sims I create, it seems to be deeply ingrained in me that lighter is better, and the more European the features, the more attractive the individual. Something I'm not quite happy with myself about, but I also realize that I'm not the only one and a lot of that is simply a product of the society that I live in, given the prominence of African-American women in the media - be it music videos, movies, TV, whatever - with either light skin or European-styled hair. In any case, when I did start socializing with my peers, they were usually all white males and in fact, my peer groups from 6th grade on have been mostly white males. I don't really think there's a real reason behind this, I just culturally identify with/have more in common with white people than I do black people, and I find guys easier to be around and talk to.

When I look in the mirror, I don't even see the color of my skin. It's just not something I'm usually aware of, unless I'm in the kind of situation where I've had a previous race-based conflict (in Westerville, because of the cops, or in mall stores, because a woman tried to accuse me of shoplifting in Charlotte Russe). Then I'm painfully aware of my skin color and all the stereotypes that come with it, and I get pretty agitated.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

Heh, this is a really weird question for me to answer because race isn't something I notice in my relationship with other people. It just depends on the person. I can say that each of the three best friends I've had have been black females, something that puzzles me to this day but not something I really think about. My last best friend Lori, I was friends with from 6th to 12th grade, and it was a really neat relationship because we could understand each other on so many different levels and then be puzzled with each other on others. She was also born and raised in suburban life, but unlike me prefers rap and r&b music, and also has only dated black guys. It was really fun talking to her on the phone, though, just to hear another black girl who - and I don't want to say "talks white" because we both use proper English and I don't even consider that a race-based trait - but we actually both can unintentionally sound rather "Valley-girlish" at times and that's about as far away from the stereotype of a black female as one can get. Both of my boyfriends have been white, but I've had intimate experiences with both white and black guys. To be honest, my default position is to have relationships with people of other races - it's relationships with people of my own race that are the anomalies.

As far as stereotypes go, well.. stereotypes and I have a pretty rocky relationship. Having been on the receiving end of plenty of racial stereotypes my entire life, I made it a point not to expect someone to act a certain way because of their skin color. The stereotypes I have are overwhelmingly political, rather than racial. In any case, I still harbor some, and I have learned that yes, there are black people who like mayonnaise - observed by both working at Subway and my last best friend, Lori - no, we don't all like watermelon - also disproved by Lori. I don't think that asians are disproportionately worse drivers, I'm probably just more likely to notice if they're Asian and a bad driver than any other race, because of the stereotypes espoused by my mother and good ol' confirmation bias. However, when it comes to Asians, Indians, and academics, I really have yet to have a personal observation that they aren't more academically inclined than "the rest of us." Concerning hispanics, I think they tend to be Catholic and, sometimes as a result, have a lot of kids. This is a stereotype that I think may be proven true by statistics, but it's a stereotype nonetheless.

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

I'm not sure. I don't think the two are as interconnected as one would think. I think a person of any race should have the ability to be proud of the things their race has accomplished without being disparaging towards other races. I mean, if I said "I like red" is that a personal affront to blue? But speaking for myself, I lack pride in my race not because of anything black people have done, but because I don't think that race should be a factor in the importance of one's accomplishments. I understand, for history's sake, the triumph concerning being the first one of a certain race to do something, but I simply lack the personal connection to take that accomplishment and make it something that I'm personally proud of. I mean, good for Marie Daly earning a Ph.D. in chemistry, not "good for Marie Daly being the first African-American woman to earn a Ph.D. in chemistry." Maybe if I were born at a time when African-Americans making such milestones would have a significant impact on my life, I would appreciate these things more. As it is now, I appreciate what my ancestors have done so I have the opportunities I have today, but don't believe in harping on accomplishments someone has made now because we happen to be of the same race.

However, I believe that most humans lack the ability to separate pride in one's own ancestry from the belief that because of these accomplishments, one's race is superior to others. So I guess that racial pride really does more harm than good, and as the concept stands now, is an obstacle to racial unity.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

There are several things that bug me about black people in general, mainly our willingness to stereotype ourselves. The only people who have ever given me any grief about the way I dress, or the way I talk, or the music I listen to have been black people. It's like "hey, let's make fun of the people who don't fit the box society has put us in!" I've really never been more confused by anything more than our need, it seems, to live up to our stereotype, as negative as it may be. It's like, we'll say we don't like white people telling us how to talk or act or behave, but it's okay for us to tell each other how to act or talk or behave. And this directly ties into the second thing that bugs me, and that's blacks in the media. Movies like Soul Plane and the ilk to absolutely nothing for our stereotypes and I find it disgusting that so many black actors and actresses willingly engage in these portrayals of black people over and over again in various movies. White people may have started these stereotypes of black people a long time ago, beginning with "Blackface" and other fun portrayals, but we're the ones who regularly reinforce it. The third thing, I'm going to call the "race strawman." In some respects similar to the race card, only the race strawman often has an element of truth to it, only it's irrelevant to the real situation. A quick example - yes, the discrepancies in penalties for crack cocaine versus powder cocaine disproportionately affect black people. And yes, the "war on drugs" and the "war on poverty" may indeed have sinister, racist basises and intentions. This doesn't change the fact that black people are choosing to engage in practices and lifestyles that disrupt black communities and cause harm to black families. So many of the problems that face the black community could come a lot closer to solving if the racial elements were simply set aside, and we focused on the hows and whys instead of conspiracy undertones. The fourth thing I'm going to label "generally annoying cultural habits" and lumped under that category are the gold teeth, flashy jewelry, long fingernails, loud and abrasive behavior, and the apparent willingness to use violence as the first method to resolve disagreements. The fifth and last thing that bugs me about blacks is our standard/expectation of beauty. Aside from what I've stated earlier, this also includes black male celebrities' preference for non-black wives or girlfriends. Now, far be it for me to say that one should only date inside of one's race, but I don't believe that so many black male celebrities just happen to find love outside their race. I think they have the mentality that "now that I have money, I can finally afford to date a beautiful white woman." Because, and let's face it, this isn't an exclusively black phenomenon - European features are considered the most attractive, from Asian women undergoing blepharoplasty for more "European" shaped eyes to black women undergoing rhinoplasty for more "European" noses, and weaves for more "European" hair. And it may be irrational, but every single time I see a dark-skinned brother with a white woman, a little voice in my head goes "black women weren't good enough or pretty enough for him." And it does make me feel a little put-off and unattractive as a black female to see so many black males with white women. It just reinforces the message that I see every day that lighter is better. Even black-themed magazines are guilty of this - probably 8 out of 10 advertisements made to place in these black-targeted publications feature people or little kids who, at best have long straight hair, and at worse look mixed.

White people, in general, don't bug me - it's the hardline conservatives whom I feel apprehensive toward. Those who honestly believe that the only factor responsible for the situation black people are in today are themselves, that the only racism is reverse racism and affirmative action, and that the only reason blacks are disproportionately represented in the prison system is because black people commit more crime. The kind of white people who see these sort of things in black-and-white filters and have no patience for nuances such as crack cocaine versus powder cocaine sentencing discrepancies, or inner city school funding versus suburban school funding. Those who have extreme cases of confirmation bias, where Bill Cosby speaks for the entire black community and black people dislike Condi Rice because "they hate successful black people." Basically, the kind of white people who have all sorts of lengthy and elaborate opinions about the actions and state of black people when the only people they've really ever talked to about it are other white people and the one or two hardline conservative black people they go to to have their preconceived opinions confirmed.

I don't have a hope that one day people will be judged exclusively for their character and not their physical features because in order to do that, we would have to start with something like this thread where we acknowledge our biases and put them out in the open, and that's never going to happen on any significant scale in society. It would get way too ugly, way too quickly - it happens on this board all the time, if that's any indication of how well an in-depth, frank discussion on race would go over with the rest of America.

1. What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

Family-wise, I have 7 step-brothers and sisters (and most of their spouses and kids) who are Hispanic. As for friends, my two best friends, who both died far too young, were a gay white man and an (straight) African-American man. My circle of friends now is mostly Caucasian, though I can think of one Korean and one Indian. One of my college study groups was a prime example of the melting pot America is. I think we had every race and gender combo represented.

I have dated men of many different nationalities and races, and the only thing I've noticed is that Hispanic men tend to want to get a woman pregnant, where most others are the exact opposite.

One of the best bosses I ever had was an African-American man. My current boss is also African-American.

What I learned is that there are a lot of ignorant, bigoted people in the world. I will never forget the sniping and whispers behind my back when I formed a friendship with Sam, my African-American friend who passed away at 40. Because we were friends and he was married, everyone assumed we must be sleeping together, and the scandalous whispers became more blatant when one (white) co-worker came right out and accused me of having an affair with him. I don’t know if this had anything to do with our races, but man, did it T me off.

I’ve learned that black, brown, yellow or white, we’re all pretty much the same, and it’s a damn shame that some people can’t deal with that. I’m fairly loud and brash myself, so I fit in well with one study group of mostly black women. Man we had fun! Didn’t get much work done, but…..

2. Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

This is a tough one. As a mixed-up, Heinz 57 variety Euro-American of 50% unknown origin, I have no racial identity to speak of. And I find that kind of sad. I think one can be proud of one’s race without wearing it as a chip on the shoulder, though. I loved talking to Sam. We could talk about race and almost anything else without it being uncomfortable. Man, he was a sweetheart; thinking about him now makes me miss him all over again.

3. What bugs you most about blacks or whites? What confuses you? What angers you? What gives you hope that we will one day "be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skins?"

What bugs me…hmm. I live in Long Beach, which has a large minority population, concentrated mostly in the downtown or northern areas of the city. I have been house-shopping, and with prices being what they are, I am looking in the northern part of Long Beach. What bugs me is when young African-American teenagers/men (and I’ve seen it with Hispanics, too, so maybe it’s just a young guy thing) I see on the streets giving me the snarling/sneering stare that seems to ask “what the heck do you think you’re doing, bringing your white --- to our neighborhood?” Me being me, I want to stare right back and ask them what their problem is, but these days I just keep my mouth shut. I guess that’s also what angers me - the same thing that seems to anger the African-Americans and Hispanics – being judged for the color of my skin and where I’m supposed to “belong”.

Another thing that bugs me is when friends or acquaintances (I have a neighbor and former co-worker who fit into this category) make racial assumptions, or make racial slurs. That makes me uncomfortable, and if I call them on it, they act like it’s no big deal. I grew up in a blue-collar environment, and my parents were…how to put it…racially insensitive? They weren’t bigots, but they did make “those” comments. I had to unlearn a lot of expressions and ideas that I was raised with.

I think there’s too much fear of the different that makes people view races differently. And it’s not as if there isn’t plenty out there to keep the fire of fear constantly stoked.

Seems that white men have always feared black men stealing their women.

Of all the debate about race- interracial relationships have facinated me most. I mentioned I was raised in a fairly color blind state (both figurtively and geographically) so I was pretty niave about this stuff when I joined the military in 82 and started into the dating seen in the early 80s, at the ripe age of 17. Long before Mix a lot came along and said "even white boys got to shout"- I liked thicker, more athletic women. As a hormonally charged young man, color of a woman's skin had nothing to do with my atraction to them- more of if they liked me and were willing to sleep with me (man, am I coming off like a real dog here LOL)

My first "adult" girlfriend was a very beautiful black fellow soldier- and I mean knockout. I considered myself quite lucky to have her. Funny enough- the only grief I got-more in the form of teasing with a tinge of jealousy- after all, she was really beautiful- was from black friends "Man, isn't there enough stuff whitey has taken away from us without you taking the hottest chicks too?"

I was really a country bumpkin too- fundamentalist conservative upbringing, farmboy look to me- carharts and flannel shirt Alaskan.

After our first date, she said "Honey, that body you have is boomin'- but those cloths has got's to go"- and dressed me up like a Miami vice character.

The next thing she did was take me to all the "black" dance clubs and show off her "hot young white boy -boyfriend" to all her black girl friends.

She told me, as we spoke about this- that all black girls have a problem with not being blonde and Euro-looking. She, despite her obvious beauty- related very similar stories as SuzySteamboat. She used to put a mop on her head as a young girl to look like a "white girl".

Then, on top of that, she related that (this is the 80s remember) that it is very, very rare for a black girl to have a white boyfriend. And to have one was really great prestige. I was so niave at the time, I noticed I was the only white guy in these clubs, though there were many white girls with black boyfriends. I just thought the white guys that didn't want to date all these fine women where out of thier minds- not realizing there was a stigma behind it at the time.

I remember, with all my black girlfriends, as all of them being very much more sexually aggressive towards me, with far less sexual hangups, than the majority of my white girlfriends.

As I travelled throughout the world- it seems that this is an American phenomenon- part of our puritian heritage- as non-US white women don't seem to have the sexual hangups and guilt etc.

There is a good possibility, had not life circumstances (we got stationed in different parts of the world on our next assignments) that I would have married that girl- and this would have been very unusual at the time. So unuusal was our relationship at the time, we got LOTS of looks from older folks when together. I was always a counter-conformist anyway, and reveled in the looks.

I have been told by women that I am ruggedly handsome, one of those manly man kind of looks, even when younger, but I have never been very confident about being a "looker"- nor felt I was a "looker"- I have always relied on charm and forthrightness and humour to be a "player" in my time.

I have always been greatful for any womans attentions, regardless of race or looks (does this make me a nice guy or a slut? I will never know- I am a happily married family man now LOL) - and have understood when any woman chose another man other than myself- so not exactly fearing the black man taking my women, but rather, losing to anyone LOL

Times have changed however- and my best friend "Chilly from Philly, my brother from another mother, the original phily O' G' the guy who keeps my ghetto pass stamped" and I joke "it is now a brothers world" (meaning women are more atracted to black men now) - and I just thought it was about the changing of today's pop culture.

This long note aside- I am always suprised by the anger and "disonance" of blacks as they tell thier story- especially when thier lives have not been all that bad.

I was beaten and molested as a child, dirt poor for a time, and have no real rage towards anyone but Christans for the most part, and even that is a flash in the pan- so I have never quite understood the anger of suburban blacks that have had no more difficult of a life than myself.

NT- hat's off to ya- I am talking to you on this one. I have talked with friends that have told me the same thing, and am suprised every time- especially by one especially affluent black friend, that had it better than me every step of the way- shoot, he stil has it better than me. I totally understand rage when life has been unfair to you- it is natural IMHO- but I have never understood it when lifes been pretty good to you.

Can you try to explain this some more? I am, and probably always will be, lost on this one!-

signed- your confused net friend LOL

Why do I have a feeling Mrs. P is waiting for me to post?

What bugs you most about black and white Americans?

The tiring and ignorant assumptions that cast foreign cultures as inferior based on a country's financial straits instead of allowing for the possibility that "their" culture is not completely wrong and "our" culture is not completely right. Not to say you shouldn't be proud or feel you don't live in the best corner of the world. This is more geared towards flippant comments like my ex-husband's on the subject of Ethiopians in the 80's, "Nothing grows here. Move along" without ever being there.

For black Americans, to put it succinctly: the chip on their shoulder or passive, self-destructive acquiescence.

The biggest problem I have lies with other Hispanics as it relates to attitudes towards women in general. I've been out of touch with the Hispanic community for ten years. One can hope attitudes have progressed. From personal experience the most exposure I've had with racism stems from my family as well, though I've had two notable exceptions.

I had just gotten married and was on a flight from Osaka to Oregon, weighed down with the prospect of spending the first year of married life without my husband. I read a magazine when a white, active duty male sitting behind me began making conversation. The conversation turned to race. His cousin was recently shot and killed by a black man, therefore, all black men are bad and his hate/disrespect towards black people is justified. I turned the scenario around and asked if he thought a black man had grounds to hate all white people if a white man killed a family member. He said no, (paraphrasing, this was a long time ago): "White people have redeeming qualities, just like you."

"Like me?"

"Yes."

"You think I'm white?"

Blank stare. "Aren't you?"

I laugh. The absurdity of his position sinks in on a deeper level than I thought possible. "I'm Cuban. My father looks white for the most part but he has marbled gums, half pink and half brown."

Silence. He looked confused and hurt(?), like I had deceived him. After a moment he slowly got up and left. I shifted in my seat and asked, "Hey, where're you gonna hide in the middle of the Pacific aboard a plane!" Some heads turned.

A few minutes later he returned and apologized. He shouldn't have said what he said. I shrugged, laughed some more, and told him it didn't bother me. I hope that exchange left him a better person. The last expression I remember was thoughtful.

As for me, "All you need is love" took on a new dimension. There's no denying the sexual cues ingrained in our heads. A Nazi indoctrination can't completely blot out the impact of waist-to-hip ratio in interpersonal relationships. Whatever faith he had about maintaining the purity of his ideology, he approached me because I'm a woman, not because I'm "white."

The other notable exception occurred in Japan. The squadron was gathered outside in a circle for safety training. The instructor, a tall, black Marine, gestured to me to demonstrate I knew how to operate the fire extinguisher, and asked rather snidely, "What's your name, Maria?"

The oddest things pop into your head sometimes. I thought of a Discovery—or was it History?—channel special on German ghettos. Besides the Star of David Jews had to wear, Jewish women were sometimes lumped together for convenience as "Mary." Not only had this jerk addressed me on a first-name basis in front of peers, a liberty
reserved for more personal settings in military circles, but by categorizing me I was also something less than an individual, I was made up of parts that equaled a collective sum regurgitated by society as a stereotype.

Back to my family. I can't count the number of times my mother's claimed blacks/whites/Mexicans hate Cubans one day, only to tell me how much she loves blacks/whites/some Mexicans another day.

For my father's part he was against me dating an African American. I don't know why he bothered making his feelings known. I wasn't allowed to go on dates until the latter half of my senior year. I guess Africans of mixed blood who speak Spanish are different. Although he doesn't say it out loud, my demonstrated independence since leaving the nest has slowly but surely made him come to terms with the fact that he has no say in the matter and in fact jokes about the prospect of me dating an African American now.

On a cultural level I could never come to terms with the Hispanic view on women. My high school sweetheart, a Nicaraguan, once informed me he wanted to have a little league of his own without thinking to ask if I wanted children, let alone spend several years pregnant and struggling to birth a brood. Then there's the social stigma that good girls don't have sex but alternately, abstinence is irrelevant as a character trait in boys. Without spreading the stigma to both sexes this attempt to curb teen pregnancy is an exercise in futility. But addressing it would require taking a hard look at double standards within the community that leads to conclusions like, "If a woman is raped she asked for it," to quote a female friend in high school, or "There's nothing wrong with men earning more than women," to quote a stepbrother today.

The double standard has led to some twisted developments. AIDS made some headway into the Hispanic community through heterosexual anal sex, presumably so the girl/young woman can remain a "virgin" when she marries. The mindset is, I believe more than anything, what has led me to distance myself from my race and its politically conservative outlook.

What kind of relationships do you have with people of other races? What have you learned about them that confirmed what you thought previously and what did you learn that came as a surprise?

Mostly white. Recently I made friends (at least I think I made friends ) with a black older lady at work. Being that I'm new around here she invited me to her church. I'm attending this Sunday. I'll probably drag my very white, very agnostic/atheist boyfriend along.

I don't know that I confirmed anything, except stereotypes in the right context can be funny as hell. (I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Hispanic thousand mile per hour sign language action.) I may have been so turned off by the whole concept of my parents trying to spell it out for me I suspect myself when something is "confirmed."

Is "racial pride" a concept that has to be eliminated for people to see each other as individuals and not a race?

Not really. Though I would prefer that cultural replace racial. From where I'm sitting culture has the chance to be more more inclusive (though not necessarily individualistic) than race.

I have had no close relationships with any black people as far as I can remember. Living in the bay area, I have had extensive relationships with those of hispanic origins, including close friendships. My sister, in fact, is dating someone with who is Mexican, something my grandmother seems a little bit weird about. I see little difference, culturally, between asians and whites.

The greatest cultural shock was even kind of a let down from what I now see as a politically correct position. Originally, I tended to assume that stereotypes of the "gangsta" black teenager was a rare, warped version of the typical male. Sadly, no matter how intelligent they were, I have yet to meet a modern black male person that did not try to follow the hip-hop crowd in some way. Of course, teenagers are always trying to fit in no matter what their race. Finding the minority within the minority is a challenge I suppose I just haven't met.

In some sense, yes. Dinstinctions based on race, such as pride over the color of ones skin, leaves others to contemplate those distinctions with jealousy, hate or anything else were trying to eliminate. Having pride over ones skin color is really just a way to empower oneself with confidence. Thats something I don't believe should give confidence to anyone.

I don't mind when people celebrate their culture, but having pride about ones skin is text book superficiality.