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Fife and Drum
One of my biggest pet peeves with the current administration is the apparent disregard for the poor border security with Mexico. I’ve considered this the greatest security risk in the war on terror.

It’s obvious from the 2004 presidential county results that those who live along the border share my sentiments.

And I’m sure most here have noticed that that they finally took matters into their own hands.

QUOTE
Tombstone, Ariz.- They came by the hundreds Friday, men and women from across the United States, hearts brimming with righteous anger, determined to staunch the flow of illegal immigration.

Some wore pistols slung low on their hips. Others walked the dusty streets in leather cowboy hats, wearing buttons that read: "Undocumented Border Patrol Agent." There were pilots, window washers, private investigators and exterminators.

These are the new Minutemen. And for the next month, they will be patrolling 23 miles of desert here in southeast Arizona, the biggest corridor for illegal immigrants in the nation with nearly 500,000 arrests made last year.

When this story first broke I immediately though of Curtis Silwa and the Guardian Angels that helped clean up New York City: citizens filling the gaps of a reluctant government. But these Minutemen are a bit different, some are armed. Their job isn’t to apprehend and detain, but alert the border patrol.

So far this week they’ve been credited with catching at least 18 illegal immigrants and doing so under the guidelines. Mexico has responded by pushing some of their troops near the border.

I think we all probably agree that something has to be done, but the ramifications of this are far reaching and I don’t want to narrow the debate too much so let’s go with some basic questions:

Is this a good idea?
Should armed citizens ever be placed in a similar position?
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Dontreadonme
Dang it Fife......you beat me by a couple of minutes....I was going to start a thread on this. crying.gif

Is this a good idea?
I think it's just fine......in concept. I like it when citizens finally take a stand and are active instead of simply whining. If the Federal and State government are unwilling to enforce the laws of this nation, then I see nothing wrong in what they are doing, as long as it's in a passive manner, that is they're not apprehending illegals and engaging in running gun battles with coyotes.

Sadly though, the demographic that is being portrayed in Mainstream Media Infotainment, is one of fat white guys that couldn't get into the military or on the police force. The image provokes thoughts of racists, bigots, wanna be Rambo's and thrill seekers. The actual participants vary a great deal more than that, but don't expect the MSM to show you that, it's not in their interest.

I have a larger concern with the porous nature of the borders being a conduit for terrorists than illegal aliens looking for work, but rampant immigration must be curbed and laws must be enforced. If the government does not wish to do so, then take the laws off of the books, and let the voters decide the correct course of action in the next elections.
This is one of my main breaks with the Libertarian Party platform.


Should armed citizens ever be placed in a similar position?

They've placed themselves in the position, but I have absolutely no issue with them being armed for their protection. Self defense is a human right.
Just Leave me Alone!
ph34r.gif I think that it is fine as well. If we deny citizens the right to enforce the law, we are supporting lawlessness. It's good to see Americans banning together and actually taking action on a problem, as opposed to just marching or writing a letter.
DaffyGrl
Should armed citizens ever be placed in a similar position?

I think it’s incredibly dangerous. I think they endanger the border patrol officers, themselves, and others who come in contact with them. As for effectiveness, there are several hundred “minutemen” (reporters put it at more like 70) guarding a 23-mile stretch of border; a drop in the ocean. For the 18 illegals they have “captured”, I’m sure 100 or so slipped through. And the previously referenced article states that these self-appointed guardians of the border are tripping the motion sensors put along the border to alert the border patrol to illegal entry.
QUOTE(US Border Patrol)
"Now we not only have to be alert to the presence of undocumented immigrants and drug traffickers, but also to civilians who, without any training or knowledge of the region, find themselves walking through the desert," he said.

A young man who works with me moved here from Brownsville Texas, near what may possibly be the deadliest and most bloody Mexican border town – Matamoras. We were talking about these “minutemen” and he said that they are risking their lives, because those whose only goal is to get to the US, or to get drugs into the US will use any means to do so, including arming themselves to fight off the “minutemen”.

Now, I’m as much for border security as anyone, but I don’t think a bunch of armed yahoos coming in from all over the place (how ironic is it that they are gathering in Tombstone? w00t.gif ) like this is a big game hunt is the answer. This ain't 1860 and this ain't the OK Corral. This is amateur night at its very worst.
Dontreadonme
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 6 2005, 01:33 PM)

Should armed citizens ever be placed in a similar position?

I think it’s incredibly dangerous. I think they endanger the border patrol officers, themselves, and others who come in contact with them. As for effectiveness, there are several hundred “minutemen” (reporters put it at more like 70) guarding a 23-mile stretch of border; a drop in the ocean. For the 18 illegals they have “captured”, I’m sure 100 or so slipped through. And the previously referenced article states that these self-appointed guardians of the border are tripping the motion sensors put along the border to alert the border patrol to illegal entry.
QUOTE(US Border Patrol)
"Now we not only have to be alert to the presence of undocumented immigrants and drug traffickers, but also to civilians who, without any training or knowledge of the region, find themselves walking through the desert," he said.


From what I've read, the Minutemen are conducting surveillance on and from private property. Tripping sensors isn't the issue, the property owner can and more than likely does trip these sensors themselves.
Bottom line, the Border Patrol isn't capable, and local and Federal law enforcement aren't willing to patrol the entire border. I see nothing wrong with citizens passively augmenting them.......even if it's 18 captured illegals. that's 18 people breaking the law that have been caught. I guess since we can't catch all speeders, burglars or rapists, we shouldn't worry about catching any of them. wacko.gif
catquas
I guess it makes sense if you think we should restrict immigration. I have been thinking more and more, however, that it really doesn't make sense to. I think there is merit in regulating it, because we would not be prepared if we suddenly completely opened up our borders, but we should take in immigrants as fast as they can be integrated into society, and we can expand our services to accomidate them. It simply doesn't make sense to forcce people stay in places where they are unable to get jobs if there are jobs available in other places. This would also reduce the illegal alien problem.
DaffyGrl
I have to wonder what the legal ramifications could be as a result of this. Who’s liable if a minutemen gets hurt/killed? Who’s liable if a minuteman hurts/kills a Mexican citizen, or a US citizen (there are human rights groups wanting to go out there to reason with them, in addition to a bunch of lawyers who are also out there keeping an eye on them)?
QUOTE
Jesus Romo, an attorney representing Border Action Network, said the California-based National Alliance for Human Rights wanted to bring in supporters to confront the Minutemen.

"We tried to dissuade them because we don't think it would be a good idea to focus on that kind of behavior," Romo said. "And simply creating a confrontation would be counterproductive for everyone."

Romo said Border Action has advised the NAHR that it would be better for those who oppose the Minutemen to "concentrate on the things we need, which is to file lawsuits, investigate the matter." Find Law


And just maybe, since the minutemen are taking an already stretched-too-thin border patrol’s attention away from other areas so the illegal immigrants can do an end run around this whole farce. And for what? Grabbing a few illegals in the Arizona desert isn’t going to address the problem of illegal immigration.
QUOTE
If The Minutemen were smart, instead of attacking Mexicans, they would protest the root of illegal immigration.
<snip>
Undocumented workers come to this country because they know someone will hire them based on their willingness to work for cheap. I don't see this minutemen group protesting in the fruit groves of California or Florida. BG News

(And, yeah, I know it’s a student paper, that doesn’t mean the writer doesn’t have a point.)
QUOTE
No doubt, the growing number of illegal immigrants has reached a crisis point, but beefing up border patrol has already proved to be a failure. Those desperate to come across will enter through another location. And those who make it will be less likely to go back, now that they've made it through the obstacle course. SF Chronicle

These are just overgrown boys giving each other code names (Dingo, Sierra, Tango laugh.gif ) and talking tough (copy that, good buddy).
QUOTE
Chris, a 45-year-old engineer from Fountain Valley, Calif., had tied a white handkerchief onto his glasses to deflect the stinging sand. He brought his wife, twin daughters and 15-year-old son here for spring break.

"The way we have been portrayed as a bunch of yahoos and rednecks, no wonder people want to kill us," he said, declining to give his full name. "I came with my family because I thought it would be great for them to see the border situation up close."

His son Alex, retreating inside his hooded sweatshirt to escape the driving sand, nodded weakly. LA Times

Poor kid. Lawdie, lawdie, give me strength. blink.gif
QUOTE
"My read on it is that it has fizzled," said Tamar Jacoby, an immigration expert at the Manhattan Institute, a public policy think tank. "This project is not going to prove anything. All it will prove is that you can funnel immigration from one place to another." (ibid.)

This is freaky dark comedy.

QUOTE
Not far away, the Minutemen radios were filled with excited chatter about an illegal immigrant in the area. Gilchrist drove up to an outpost, flung open the car door and shouted, "Who saw the illegal aliens?"

A tall Minuteman approached.

"There are no illegals, those are our people," he said.

The "immigrant" was in fact 67-year-old Dave Gessner of Fort Wayne, Ind.

"I was just answering the call of nature," he said sheepishly. "Guess I won't wander off anymore." (ibid.)

ROFLMAOPIMP!!!!!!!!!!! w00t.gif w00t.gif

But, it's really no laughing matter. Vigilantism should not be endorsed just because it’s a cause one feels to be “right”. That’s taking the law into one’s own hands, and down that road lies chaos.

Edited to add
QUOTE(DTOM)
Bottom line, the Border Patrol isn't capable, and local and Federal law enforcement aren't willing to patrol the entire border. I see nothing wrong with citizens passively augmenting them.......even if it's 18 captured illegals. that's 18 people breaking the law that have been caught. I guess since we can't catch all speeders, burglars or rapists, we shouldn't worry about catching any of them. 

By that logic, then the Border Patrol is doing a fine job. They sure as hell catch more illegals than these nimrods.
Dontreadonme
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 6 2005, 02:50 PM)

But, it's really no laughing matter. Vigilantism should not be endorsed just because it’s a cause one feels to be “right”. That’s taking the law into one’s own hands, and down that road lies chaos.

Edited to add
QUOTE(DTOM)
Bottom line, the Border Patrol isn't capable, and local and Federal law enforcement aren't willing to patrol the entire border. I see nothing wrong with citizens passively augmenting them.......even if it's 18 captured illegals. that's 18 people breaking the law that have been caught. I guess since we can't catch all speeders, burglars or rapists, we shouldn't worry about catching any of them. 

By that logic, then the Border Patrol is doing a fine job. They sure as hell catch more illegals than these nimrods.

I think you're seriously confused as to the definition of vigilantism, and taking the law into your own hands.
If the Minutemen do as they state their purpose is, that is to observe and notify authorities if illegal aliens are spotted crossing the border, in areas that there are no border Patrol agents.....then that is no more dangerous or trivial than a neighborhood watch program. Or do you rail against those too?

As long as you're having fun with this news item, its cool...........you're getting a taste of other peoples feelings and perceptions when we see the idiot FreeMumiaSaveThe TurtlesEndWarandRacismFreeFreePalestine Hey Hey Ho Ho crowd.
Bay State Rebel
Citizens acting as law enforcement officials should never be encouraged. However, vigilance is admirable, and should be encouraged. It is my impression that these people are not detaining the fugitives in question. Unless they resort to illegal methods, such as attacking immigrants, their actions are not only justifiable, but admirable.
Christopher
QUOTE
But, it's really no laughing matter. Vigilantism should not be endorsed just because it’s a cause one feels to be “right”. That’s taking the law into one’s own hands, and down that road lies chaos

Sorry Daffy but your just wrong. Its about time Somebody/Anybody did something about the illegals streaming across the border. Arizona accounts for something like 55% of the ones who come across. Since the Minutemen started this the Border Patrol just happened to "magically" come up with a few hundred additional guards and i beleive 9 new planes for our needs here--So the Minutemen have indeed accomplished something no one else could--got the government to finally do something.

The whining coming from the Mexican government on this is pathetic as they have tried to insinuate a growing sense of racism and hate in AZ. Personally they should be forced to pony up some money to help care and support these people. Anybody want to kick in some tax money to help restore the maternity wards shut down in AZ and CA who were strangled by the costs of care for illegals?

I don't really expect much from a government that forces its own citizen to have to flee to other countries to find work to sustain their families and spend their lives living as hunted vagrants. This problem has been epeidemic since Eisenhower. They have done NOTHING to try and make any changes that might bring a healthy economy to Mexico. They should offer us thanks in a sick way because if we ever actually deported large numbers of illegals-- estimates are in the millions-- there would be riots in downtown Mexico City. Let them finally explain to their own people why they allow them to be exploited.
The people who decry this action should examine their own line of reasoning.
The line about"they do jobs Americans won't do" is a pretty sad statement. Yeah just great--let them be exploited and treated like slaves. hurray!
Perhaps if Mexico were finally Forced to deal with the economy after 3 decades the people of mexico might finally stop having to suffer the misfortune of being born into a country that has no regard for its own. and forced to bear a terrible burden just to get by.
Maybe if some of those who think its just so horrible that people are tired of the illegal flood would actually consider what they are supporting--the continued exploitation of people who deserve much better.
When are the activists going INTO Mexico to start protests to force changes by their government?

As for the supposed Human Rights groups that in effect do nothing but continue to keep the suppression of Mexicans healthy with their hysterical hand wringing they are providing no actual aid to anyone. They have done their best to create a myth and paranoia of racism and hate and do the work of the "supremecists' they claim to be worried about.

It is long past time to have this dealt with and if it takes citizens standing up and taking care of it themselves--well good! Ask any of the border guards themselves or the American citizens that actually live on the border and they will pretty much all praise this effort.

will it stop it--No.

Mexicans will continue to get screwed. Both by those who profit from their enslavement--and those who defend their right to be enslaved.








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DaffyGrl
QUOTE(DTOM)
I think you're seriously confused as to the definition of vigilantism, and taking the law into your own hands.
If the Minutemen do as they state their purpose is, that is to observe and notify authorities if illegal aliens are spotted crossing the border, in areas that there are no border Patrol agents.....then that is no more dangerous or trivial than a neighborhood watch program. Or do you rail against those too?

As long as you're having fun with this news item, its cool...........you're getting a taste of other peoples feelings and perceptions when we see the idiot FreeMumiaSaveThe TurtlesEndWarandRacismFreeFreePalestine Hey Hey Ho Ho crowd.

I don't know how you define vigilante, but I define it as a person who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into his/her own hands. Pretty much the dictionary definition.

I want illegal immigration controlled; if you'd read any of my opinions in other immigration threads, you'd know that. Hell, I live in California, otherwise known as Norte Mexico, fercryinoutloud! But you didn't address a very valid point: what good is it to have a bunch of goobers sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars and guns when you don't address the root cause of WHY these people emigrate in the first place? Your own president doesn't think throwing more people into border security as a solution (gawd, I can't believe I just wrote that... huh.gif ). As long as well-to-do homeowners and businesses hire them to do the work the Americans can't or won't do, catching a couple of guys at the border doesn't amount to squat!

And there's no reason to be nasty; I'm just trying to inject a little levity. You don't see any humor in this at all? Some 15-year old kid spending his vacation in the middle of the Arizona desert eating sand? Some old guy going to take a whizz gets everyone all jacked up? It just screams parody to me. innocent.gif
Dontreadonme
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 6 2005, 04:03 PM)

I don't know how you define vigilante, but I define it as a person who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into his/her own hands. Pretty much the dictionary definition.

I want illegal immigration controlled; if you'd read any of my opinions in other immigration threads, you'd know that. Hell, I live in California, otherwise known as Norte Mexico, fercryinoutloud! But you didn't address a very valid point: what good is it to have a bunch of goobers sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars and guns when you don't address the root cause of WHY these people emigrate in the first place? Your own president doesn't think throwing more people into border security as a solution (gawd, I can't believe I just wrote that...  huh.gif ).  As long as well-to-do homeowners and businesses hire them to do the work the Americans can't or won't do, catching a couple of guys at the border doesn't amount to squat!

And there's no reason to be nasty; I'm just trying to inject a little levity. You don't see any humor in this at all? Some 15-year old kid spending his vacation in the middle of the Arizona desert eating sand? Some old guy going to take a whizz gets everyone all jacked up? It just screams parody to me.  innocent.gif
*



Two things: Observing and reporting illegal activity isn't vigilantism by any stretch of the definition....we are brought up by parents, teachers, and politicians of all stripes, that we should uphold the law and report those who do not. That's what they are doing.
If you see somebody breaking into you're neighbors home, do you not call the police? Do you let the crime happen because 'its not your job' as a citizen to report it? Are you against neighborhood watch programs?

I didn't address your 'valid point'.......because it's not the question for debate for this thread.

And as for levity and parody.....can't you see humor in the 'have cause will travel' MO of many on the left?


Edited to add: Whaddya mean MY president??????
DaffyGrl
QUOTE(DTOM)
Two things: Observing and reporting illegal activity isn't vigilantism by any stretch of the definition....we are brought up by parents, teachers, and politicians of all stripes, that we should uphold the law and report those who do not. That's what they are doing.
If you see somebody breaking into you're neighbors home, do you not call the police? Do you let the crime happen because 'its not your job' as a citizen to report it? Are you against neighborhood watch programs?

I didn't address your 'valid point'.......because it's not the question for debate for this thread.

And as for levity and parody.....can't you see humor in the 'have cause will travel' MO of many on the left?


Edited to add: Whaddya mean MY president??????

OK, I'll concede that maybe vigilantism is not the correct term. But to put it in a law enforcement context, the LAPD doesn't appreciate citizens "helping out" in car or foot chases...and yes, it has happened here in the car chase capitol of the country. Sure, the citizen has good intentions, but it just makes law enforcement's job that much more difficult and dangerous. Same thing applies here.

Fine, but any discussion on illegal immigration that doesn't address the root causes isn't valid either.

Sure, I think all extremists are funny and bizarre. Naked people protesting the wearing of fur makes me guffaw. Any good cause can be taken to extremes. But, as you pointed out, political correctness isn't the subject of the debate. thumbsup.gif

I sure as hell didn't vote for him, so he ain't my president. devil.gif

Edited to add:
Here is a very well-written article by the California Farm Bureau Federation that addresses the minuteman situation. Someone (christopher?) had mentioned that at least more attention and manpower was being sent out, but the way this reads is that the Border Patrol is merely taking agents away from other border areas to deal with the stuff going on in Arizona. Great, that means Texas and California will get a spike in illegals while we deal with Rambo. dry.gif
QUOTE
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Customs and Border Protection agency is reassigning more than 530 Border Patrol agents to the Tucson Sector, which protects the border in Arizona. The agency also is sending more than 45 boats and aircraft to the area.
<snip>
Luawanna Hallstrom, chief operating officer of Harry Singh & Sons, the single largest vine-ripe tomato producer in the United States, said, "While there are some well meaning U.S citizens in this country who feel that way, closing the borders is not the answer. Rather, we need well-crafted programs that provide mechanisms to allow for safe and legal immigration that best suits our country's needs and national security requirements.

"There are those who may have an ax to grind--racist leanings, long-nursed grudges or simple hotheads--who will be drawn to an amateur border control effort," Hallstrom said. "What the people organizing this action are doing is not only inappropriate, it's downright dangerous." CFBF



Lesly
Is this a good idea?

I would like to see where Chris got the additional guards and new planes. If that's the case it is a good idea. At least for now. If it isn't the case I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it's legal to carry hand guns in the open in Arizona, the minutemen don't grow bold and do something stupid, and don't sue state and federal law enforcement if they are hurt or killed by illegal immigrants while voluntarily patrolling. You're out there with a gun. You know what you're getting into.

QUOTE
President Bush outraged the volunteers here by calling them "vigilantes."


Pot, kettle.
catquas
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 6 2005, 03:59 PM)
They have done NOTHING to try and make any changes that might bring a healthy economy to Mexico.


I don't know where you get this idea. The government has tried to improve economic growth in many ways. There are things it could do better, but there are things it does right as well. It tried to institute land reform but that didn't work too well for political reasons. It would surely like to help out farmers with access to credit, insurance, and extension programs, but where is it going to get the money to do that in an already poor country. Perhaps the United States should help out.

Moreover, even if the Mexican government were the worst ever, we have no control over it. It does no good to sit back in our country and criticize oppressive governments. Do you think when the holocaust was going on we should have not accepted any Jews? Maybe there would have been more resitence in Germany if more Jews had stayed to fight, like in the Warsaw ghetto. I think you would agree that the answer is no, we should have allowed them to escape the conditions they were living in.

True, the Mexican government should reform but until Mexico is developed we should take in as many immigrants as we can absorb. It is also true that the border states are getting screwed; I think the federal government should do a lot more to help them out.
Christopher
Here ya go Lesly
They were trying to head off the whole Minuteman thing by announcing this. So they were somewhat effectual.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/commis...se2_arizona.xml

snip.....To carry out Phase II, CBP is strengthening its enforcement presence along the Arizona border, including reassigning more than 530 Border Patrol agents to the Tucson Sector and deploying more than 45 CBP Air and Marine Operations and Border Patrol air assets throughout the region......snip

Lesly
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 7 2005, 09:09 PM)

Here ya go Lesly
They were trying to head off the whole Minuteman thing by announcing this. So they were somewhat effectual.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/commis...se2_arizona.xml

snip.....To carry out Phase II, CBP is strengthening its enforcement presence along the Arizona border, including reassigning more than 530 Border Patrol agents to the Tucson Sector and deploying more than 45 CBP Air and Marine Operations and Border Patrol air assets throughout the region......snip
*


Chris, here's a fact sheet of sorts from DHS on last year's Arizona Border Control Initiative.

According to the fact sheet they apprehended 126,649 more illegal aliens attempting entry through Arizona in 2004 than in 2003, and more felony and misdemeanor prosecutions through collaborating state, federal, and local agencies.

QUOTE
On March 16, 2004, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced the Arizona Border Control (ABC) Initiative. ABC will continue beyond the September 30th end date. The continuation of ABC through the fall season will provide coordinators with a significant planning period for resource commitments in 2005.


I would be inclined to agree that the minutemen are the reason for the added manpower if someone at DHS or immigration all of a sudden thought to make the initiative, but it's clear it's a continuing program from last March. The minutemen may be the difference between one or two hundred more border patrol agents. It's hard to qualify. I think the increased number of agents and planes (according to the fact sheet they deployed unmanned aerial planes last year) is more of a repercussion to Bush's amnesty for illegal immigrants idea.
carlitoswhey
QUOTE(Lesly @ Apr 7 2005, 09:55 PM)
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 7 2005, 09:09 PM)

Here ya go Lesly
They were trying to head off the whole Minuteman thing by announcing this. So they were somewhat effectual.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/commis...se2_arizona.xml

snip.....To carry out Phase II, CBP is strengthening its enforcement presence along the Arizona border, including [B]reassigning more than 530 Border Patrol agents to the Tucson Sector and deploying more than 45 CBP Air and Marine Operations and Border Patrol air assets throughout the region[/b]......snip
*


Chris, here's a fact sheet of sorts from DHS on last year's Arizona Border Control Initiative.

According to the fact sheet they apprehended 126,649 more illegal aliens attempting entry through Arizona in 2004 than in 2003, and more felony and misdemeanor prosecutions through collaborating state, federal, and local agencies.

QUOTE
On March 16, 2004, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced the Arizona Border Control (ABC) Initiative. ABC will continue beyond the September 30th end date. The continuation of ABC through the fall season will provide coordinators with a significant planning period for resource commitments in 2005.


I would be inclined to agree that the minutemen are the reason for the added manpower if someone at DHS or immigration all of a sudden thought to make the initiative, but it's clear it's a continuing program from last March. The minutemen may be the difference between one or two hundred more border patrol agents. It's hard to qualify. I think the increased number of agents and planes (according to the fact sheet they deployed unmanned aerial planes last year) is more of a repercussion to Bush's amnesty for illegal immigrants idea.
*


All well and good, but those agents were RE - assigned. Meaning that there is a section of the border from whence they came which now has 500 less agents. Smoke / Mirrors at best. For example, the Marines are now insinuating that tightening the border in Eastern AZ has pushed illigal immigrants Westward, onto their bombing range.

QUOTE
MARINE CORPS AIR STATION YUMA, Ariz. -- Marines preparing for combat in Iraq or Afghanistan have lost significant amounts of training time because undocumented immigrants from Mexico have constantly wandered onto a bombing test range in Arizona, according to the commander of this base along the border.

Virtually every Marine squadron headed to Iraq or Afghanistan receives combat training at the Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma, which for nearly 40 miles touches the US-Mexico border in the southwestern corner of Arizona. The Border Patrol's focus in recent years on tightening the border in the eastern part of the state, where volunteer citizens this month have established their own observation posts, has pushed more undocumented immigrants westward.

Since July 2004, the training range has been shut down more than 500 times because of immigrants spotted on the range, causing a loss of more than 1,100 training hours, said Colonel James J. Cooney, the base's commanding officer.

''That's equivalent to almost 46 days of training. We're getting overrun here," he said in an interview. ''Any moment we take away from a Marine's experience base could cost him his life in combat."


Hello everybody - the United States Marine Corps is "getting overrun." Not that there is an illegal immigration problem. whistling.gif If poor migrants can wander onto a US military base, can anyone here tell my why Al Qaeda could not?

At least the radical open borders lobby are having to come out in the open and declare themselves because of this, which is a great thing in my opinion. When Americans see how insane these people are, they may actually demand that their cities cease the sanctuary laws (better called "catch and release") that forbid local law enforcement in places like San Fran, LA and NYC from asking the immigration status of anyone, including known violators.
DaffyGrl
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Apr 8 2005, 09:47 AM)
QUOTE(Lesly @ Apr 7 2005, 09:55 PM)
QUOTE(christopher @ Apr 7 2005, 09:09 PM)

Here ya go Lesly
They were trying to head off the whole Minuteman thing by announcing this. So they were somewhat effectual.
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/commis...se2_arizona.xml

snip.....To carry out Phase II, CBP is strengthening its enforcement presence along the Arizona border, including [B]reassigning more than 530 Border Patrol agents to the Tucson Sector and deploying more than 45 CBP Air and Marine Operations and Border Patrol air assets throughout the region[/b]......snip
*


Chris, here's a fact sheet of sorts from DHS on last year's Arizona Border Control Initiative.

According to the fact sheet they apprehended 126,649 more illegal aliens attempting entry through Arizona in 2004 than in 2003, and more felony and misdemeanor prosecutions through collaborating state, federal, and local agencies.

QUOTE
On March 16, 2004, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced the Arizona Border Control (ABC) Initiative. ABC will continue beyond the September 30th end date. The continuation of ABC through the fall season will provide coordinators with a significant planning period for resource commitments in 2005.


I would be inclined to agree that the minutemen are the reason for the added manpower if someone at DHS or immigration all of a sudden thought to make the initiative, but it's clear it's a continuing program from last March. The minutemen may be the difference between one or two hundred more border patrol agents. It's hard to qualify. I think the increased number of agents and planes (according to the fact sheet they deployed unmanned aerial planes last year) is more of a repercussion to Bush's amnesty for illegal immigrants idea.
*


All well and good, but those agents were RE - assigned. Meaning that there is a section of the border from whence they came which now has 500 less agents. Smoke / Mirrors at best. For example, the Marines are now insinuating that tightening the border in Eastern AZ has pushed illigal immigrants Westward, onto their bombing range.

QUOTE
MARINE CORPS AIR STATION YUMA, Ariz. -- Marines preparing for combat in Iraq or Afghanistan have lost significant amounts of training time because undocumented immigrants from Mexico have constantly wandered onto a bombing test range in Arizona, according to the commander of this base along the border.

Virtually every Marine squadron headed to Iraq or Afghanistan receives combat training at the Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma, which for nearly 40 miles touches the US-Mexico border in the southwestern corner of Arizona. The Border Patrol's focus in recent years on tightening the border in the eastern part of the state, where volunteer citizens this month have established their own observation posts, has pushed more undocumented immigrants westward.

Since July 2004, the training range has been shut down more than 500 times because of immigrants spotted on the range, causing a loss of more than 1,100 training hours, said Colonel James J. Cooney, the base's commanding officer.

''That's equivalent to almost 46 days of training. We're getting overrun here," he said in an interview. ''Any moment we take away from a Marine's experience base could cost him his life in combat."


Hello everybody - the United States Marine Corps is "getting overrun." Not that there is an illegal immigration problem. whistling.gif If poor migrants can wander onto a US military base, can anyone here tell my why Al Qaeda could not?

At least the radical open borders lobby are having to come out in the open and declare themselves because of this, which is a great thing in my opinion. When Americans see how insane these people are, they may actually demand that their cities cease the sanctuary laws (better called "catch and release") that forbid local law enforcement in places like San Fran, LA and NYC from asking the immigration status of anyone, including known violators.
*



This plays right into the whole liability thing I brought up and the fact that the illegals will just find another area to cross to avoid these guys. I think the so-called Minutemen may have bitten off a little more than they can chew. In fact, I'd be willing to bet lawsuits against Gilchrist et al are being prepared.

And you could build a fence along the whole border and it won't do a darned thing to keep illegal immigrants out as long as there are people willing to hire them in this country. You should have seen the news the other day showing them climbing over/crawling under a fence on the CA/Mexico border. These people are nothing if not determined.

I feel ever so much safer laugh.gif knowing this guy is on duty: Houston Chronicle
carlitoswhey
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 8 2005, 12:11 PM)
This plays right into the whole liability thing I brought up and the fact that the illegals will just find another area to cross to avoid these guys. I think the so-called Minutemen may have bitten off a little more than they can chew. In fact, I'd be willing to bet lawsuits against Gilchrist et al are being prepared.

And you could build a fence along the whole border and it won't do a darned thing to keep illegal immigrants out as long as there are people willing to hire them in this country. You should have seen the news the other day showing them climbing over/crawling under a fence on the CA/Mexico border. These people are nothing if not determined.

You are right that the demand for illegal labor is a huge impediment to securing the border, in that the incentive will draw people to ways around it. The Minuteman Project is intended as a PR news-generating activity. If increased press coverage of the border situation pressures the administration to do something, it could also increase the chances for other steps' success:
As for business, I'd like to see arrest and a Ken Lay-style "perp walk" for a few CEO's of a few large companies that employ illegals. The $11 million fine that Wal Mart paid for hiring illegals is a joke. This is easy to track, because the fake SS numbers don't file income tax. The Social Security administration knows who the worst violators are, because they actually fine the companies for having, in some cases, thousands of false SS# filed at year-end. Of course, SSA won't report the employers' names to Homeland Security. Our tax dollars at work.
UTPete
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Apr 8 2005, 01:09 PM)
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 8 2005, 12:11 PM)
This plays right into the whole liability thing I brought up and the fact that the illegals will just find another area to cross to avoid these guys. I think the so-called Minutemen may have bitten off a little more than they can chew. In fact, I'd be willing to bet lawsuits against Gilchrist et al are being prepared.

And you could build a fence along the whole border and it won't do a darned thing to keep illegal immigrants out as long as there are people willing to hire them in this country. You should have seen the news the other day showing them climbing over/crawling under a fence on the CA/Mexico border. These people are nothing if not determined.

You are right that the demand for illegal labor is a huge impediment to securing the border, in that the incentive will draw people to ways around it. The Minuteman Project is intended as a PR news-generating activity. If increased press coverage of the border situation pressures the administration to do something, it could also increase the chances for other steps' success:
As for business, I'd like to see arrest and a Ken Lay-style "perp walk" for a few CEO's of a few large companies that employ illegals. The $11 million fine that Wal Mart paid for hiring illegals is a joke. This is easy to track, because the fake SS numbers don't file income tax. The Social Security administration knows who the worst violators are, because they actually fine the companies for having, in some cases, thousands of false SS# filed at year-end. Of course, SSA won't report the employers' names to Homeland Security. Our tax dollars at work.
*


The moment I first heard of the Minuteman Project I was intrigued, and, a little bit jealous of those people with the time on their hands that would allow them to participate. Granted, too many of those with the time will turn out to be wacko's, racists, survivalist's and other gun toters, and various members of card carrying lunatic fringe groups. And some Liberals.
I don't expect a great deal of success as a direct result of their efforts. But, as a secondary effect I hope their efforts attract a lot of attention to the fact that the average American Citizen is very concerned about illegal immigration, smuggling, gun running, terrorism, etc.. All of which is made easier with our wide open southern border.
I hope and pray that none of these citizens, or innocent illegals come to harm. The gun toters had better know what they're letting themselves in for. In the back country of the S.W., locals have been dealing with unfriendlies like rustlers, poachers, drug runners, coyotes (4 foots know better than to mess with 2 foots) and etc. Too many of this influx of volunteers are from more urban settings and will get into trouble even without the help of guns and unfriendlies thrown in to compound things.
My hope is that Our Government will finally see the light and start to serve the people who elected them and pay the taxes that keep the wheels greased. They do not rule us and need to be reminded of that! Illegal immigration does not benefit any but the greedy among us in the long run. Those greedy individuals are doing nothing to help the immigrants or Our Nation and deserve prosecution. Repeat offender deserve severe consequences.
carlitoswhey
Well, the good news is that the ACLU is down there helping us out. God bless them, always on the side of goodness and right.
QUOTE(worldnetdaily)
[Minuteman Project spokesman] Grey Deacon told Joseph Farah's nationally syndicated "WorldNetDaily RadioActive" audience yesterday that ACLU monitors sent to the border to watch Minuteman activity and report civil-liberties abuses to authorities have begun flashing lights, sounding horns and warning off illegals and their "coyote" human smugglers from entering territory patrolled by the volunteers...

"They are actively engaging in criminal activity," said Deacon... "The ACLU's position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want," said Deacon. "That's what one of the leaders of the group told me personally..."


The Mexican army helping illegals I can understand, being that they swore an oath to Mexico, but the ACLU? Seems a little off-mission to me. Isn't there a tiny cross to remove somewhere in America where this AMERICAN group can better spend their time? How exactly does aiding and abetting illegal immigration help the cause of American civil liberties? us.gif
Ptarmigan
QUOTE
The Mexican army helping illegals I can understand, being that they swore an oath to Mexico, but the ACLU? Seems a little off-mission to me. Isn't there a tiny cross to remove somewhere in America where this AMERICAN group can better spend their time? How exactly does aiding and abetting illegal immigration help the cause of American civil liberties? 


Well, lets remember that the quote you had there:

QUOTE
"They are actively engaging in criminal activity," said Deacon... "The ACLU's position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want," said Deacon. "That's what one of the leaders of the group told me personally..."

Comes from a Minuteman Spokesman, so hardly unbiased. Otherwise it looks ike the ACLU is acting to make sure that minutemen do not commit civil rights abuses. This may be an unfair of indictment of Minutemen behaviour, however it isn't the same as helping Mexicans enter the USA. It is preventing unlawful behaviour on the part of minutemen, rather than promoting unlawful behaviour on the part of Mexicans.
carlitoswhey
QUOTE(Ptarmigan @ Apr 15 2005, 10:38 AM)
Well, lets remember that the quote you had there:

QUOTE
"They are actively engaging in criminal activity," said Deacon... "The ACLU's position is that illegal aliens have a right to enter our border and stay in this country as long as they want," said Deacon. "That's what one of the leaders of the group told me personally..."

Comes from a Minuteman Spokesman, so hardly unbiased. Otherwise it looks ike the ACLU is acting to make sure that minutemen do not commit civil rights abuses. This may be an unfair of indictment of Minutemen behaviour, however it isn't the same as helping Mexicans enter the USA. It is preventing unlawful behaviour on the part of minutemen, rather than promoting unlawful behaviour on the part of Mexicans.
*


Well, let's remember the other quote I had there...this time with emphasis.

QUOTE
[Minuteman Project spokesman] Grey Deacon told Joseph Farah's nationally syndicated "WorldNetDaily RadioActive" audience yesterday that ACLU monitors sent to the border to watch Minuteman activity and report civil-liberties abuses to authorities have begun flashing lights, sounding horns and warning off illegals and their "coyote" human smugglers from entering territory patrolled by the volunteers...

They are aiding the coyotes and illegal immigrants by warning them off the territory patrolled by Minutemen. Yes, this would 100% prevent potential "abuses" (none so far, still waiting!) but it also prevents border patrol from arresting the lawbreakers. The ACLU is opposed to enforcing the integrity of our border and threatening to sue those seeking to reduce illegal immigration - why?
washington times
QUOTE
Arizona ACLU spokesman Ray Ybarra argues the mere presence of the Minutemen at the border constitutes "unlawful imprisonment" of illegal (excuse me, "undocumented") aliens (excuse me, "migrants"). Mr. Ybarra told The Washington Times that the ACLU will have lawyers standing by to file civil cases against the volunteers. He warned the Minutemen could "come to our state as 'vigilantes' and end up leaving as 'defendants.' "


Ptarmigan
Carlitoswhey

Yes, but these events are reported by the Minutemen, who no doubt object to the ACLU taking any stance against what they do. I am suggesting that the Minuteman report might be biased against the ACLU by portraying their attempts to limit vigilantims as helping illegal immigrants crossing the border.

The ACLU may simply be trying to stop vigilantism rather than promote illigel immigration. Its just that in this case, stopping vigilantism may then link to an increase in illegal immigration, so it is a question of whether it is worse for the US to have more immigrants crossing the border, or to allow vigilantes to act unchecked.


quarkhead
Here is a release from the ACLU of Arizona from April 7:

QUOTE
As reported today by The Associated Press, Border Patrol agents called in deputies from the Cochise County Sheriff's office on Wednesday afternoon to report that an immigrant was detained by three men who identified themselves as Minuteman volunteers. The men physically restrained a 26-year-old Mexican man and forced him to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped. The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

"The Minuteman project has created a powder-keg situation with the potential to go beyond harassment and false imprisonment to real violence," Eisenberg said. "As we have said, the Minutemen have a right to engage in constitutionally protected First Amendment activity. However, they do not have a right to violate the civil liberties of others. We call on the Cochise County Sheriff’s Department to thoroughly investigate this incident."


This is from the ACLU's release just before the Minutemen got going:

QUOTE
"We recognize the right of a country to defend its borders," said Eleanor Eisenberg, Executive Director of the ACLU of Arizona, "but it must be done by the proper authorities and in a humane way. Too many migrants, coming to this country for the jobs we offer, have died in the desert from heat, dehydration and exhaustion. It would be even more tragic to have migrants die as a result of violence."

In the past, the Minuteman sponsoring organization is alleged to have engaged in activities that go beyond First Amendment-protected activity and that is intended to intimidate, harass or otherwise interfere with the rights of others. Many immigrant advocacy groups, including the ACLU, have expressed concern that members of white supremacist and other hate organizations will be participating and may trigger violence.


Yes, those ACLU bums. They are so wacky! tongue.gif

QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
At least the radical open borders lobby are having to come out in the open and declare themselves because of this, which is a great thing in my opinion. When Americans see how insane these people are, they may actually demand that their cities cease the sanctuary laws (better called "catch and release") that forbid local law enforcement in places like San Fran, LA and NYC from asking the immigration status of anyone, including known violators.


Who are these "radical open borders" people you are referring to? It's obviously not the ACLU... so who? Do you imagine that this is a position held by the "left" in general? Are you implying that those of use who emphasize that human beings deserve humane treatment are actually open border insane radicals, unbeknownst perhaps even to ourselves? Is it your impression that the insane open border radical lobby is a large group? I don't doubt there are some people who believe in open borders; however, I think they are few and far between. And I seriously doubt they are insane. In fact, one could make an argument for the elimination of borders entirely, based on a purely capitalist/free market philosophy. One could even go so far as to argue that political creations such as citizenship are a hinderance to the free marketplace. Of course the idea might not be feasible, but it isn't insane. It's just a different way of seeing the issue.
Dontreadonme
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Apr 16 2005, 06:19 AM)

Here is a release from the ACLU of Arizona from April 7:

QUOTE
As reported today by The Associated Press, Border Patrol agents called in deputies from the Cochise County Sheriff's office on Wednesday afternoon to report that an immigrant was detained by three men who identified themselves as Minuteman volunteers. The men physically restrained a 26-year-old Mexican man and forced him to hold a shirt while his picture was taken and he was videotaped. The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

"The Minuteman project has created a powder-keg situation with the potential to go beyond harassment and false imprisonment to real violence," Eisenberg said. "As we have said, the Minutemen have a right to engage in constitutionally protected First Amendment activity. However, they do not have a right to violate the civil liberties of others. We call on the Cochise County Sheriff’s Department to thoroughly investigate this incident."


Luckily we all now know that the story has been debunked:
QUOTE
Authorities determined today that three volunteers involved in a civilian project to watch the border and report illegal crossers did not hold an illegal immigrant against his will.
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The Mexican man had told sheriff's deputies that he was detained and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan. The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt." Barton was one of the three volunteers.

"The county attorney's office reviewed all available evidence, that indicates that there was no forcible detention, therefore the case is not substantiated, and no charges are pending," said Carol Capas, a spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.


There was no detention, but a prank by a former UCSD student who went to join the Minuteman group, by the way now barred from being a member.

Strangely, the ACLU has yet to print a retraction of their condemnation........still waiting......
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