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BoF
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Apr 14 2005, 07:15 AM)
Punitive actions for what?  Has he been found guilty of something?


If you are talking about breaking the law, then no DeLay hasn’t been charged with anything yet.

He has, however, been admonished three times by the Republican controlled House Ethics Committee.

Resignation does not necessarily hinge on indictment and conviction.

No charges were ever filed against Richard Nixon, yet he resigned. No charges were possible, once Gerald Ford presented Nixon with an inoculation type pardon. I think Ford’s action partially helped Carter defeat him in 1976.

No criminal charges were ever filed against Jim Wright or Newt Gingrich, yet both of them resigned.

I would lay odds that DeLay is eventually forced from his leadership job and out of Congress. Let's just say the smaller rats will throw the big rat overboard.

We’ll have to wait and see if criminal charges are brought against him.

From Tujesday (April 12) Night’s Scarborough Country

QUOTE(Joe Scarborough)
They [Democrats] just can‘t stop talking about poor old Tom DeLay?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7489822/

Yeah, Joe. I feel so sorry for “poor old Tom DeLay." Dream on! sad.gif
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Erasmussimo
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Apr 14 2005, 12:30 PM)
The appellate decision was not "absolutely clear".  Read the dissent in the case for an analysis of how the law was indeed constitutional.

Whoa, podner! The dissent is NOT the court's decision -- it is the opinion of the dissenter. True, the opinion of any member of the bench is worthy of respect, but in the end, it's legally without force and substance because it is most emphatically NOT the decision of the court. The decision of the court quite plainly set down the reasons why the law was unconstitutional. The fact that a dissenting opinion dissented from this decision is not in and of itself significant. The fact that the Supreme Court did not take up the matter means that the Appellate Court decision remains the law the land. The Schiavo bill has been rendered null and void. The Court did not ignore it -- it struck it down. That's their proper function.
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Apr 14 2005, 12:30 PM)
The cause for congressional investigation relates to why the court did not follow the law...

Again, it is incorrect to state that the court did not follow the law. The court struck down the law. There's a BIG difference!
QUOTE(hayleyanne @ Apr 14 2005, 12:30 PM)
QUOTE
That's not relevant to my point. My point was that Gore v. Bush was clearly a more legally questionable decision than the decision made in the Schiavo case; if a congressional investigation is appropriate in the Schiavo case, is not a congressional investigation even more appropriate for Gore v. Bush?

On what grounds is it appropriate for a congressional investigation of the 2000 decision?

My point is a bit more subtle than that. I'm not making an absolute case for a congressional investigation of Gore v Bush, I'm making a relative case. If you're so sure that there's a case for a congressional investigation of the courts' handling of the Schiavo case, then you must be even MORE sure that there's an even better case for a congressional investigation of Gore v. Bush. I'm not making any claims about the absolute desirability of any congressional investigations, just the relative desirability in these two cases.
Jaime
Last call for on-topic posts before we close this.

TOPICS TO DEBATE:
Is Tom DeLay becoming (or has he already become) a liability for the Republican party? Will the GOP steadfastly “stand by their man” or distance themselves by forcing him out as they did Trent Lott?

Should punitive actions be taken against Tom DeLay? If so, what actions are appropriate? If not, why not?

Should DeLay face charges for threatening federal judges?
nighttimer
I'll take a stab at putting this thread back on-topic before it gets padlocked...

I went to a town hall meeting Tuesday with my Congressman Pat Tiberi (R-Columbus). I know Pat a little bit and when I was editor of a weekly black newspaper we endorsed him when he made his first run for Congress. He's been a solid Republican vote with a moderate-to-conservative voting record.

That's why he surprised me when he declined to support Tom DeLay continuing as House Majority Leader. Tiberi didn't go so far as Christopher Shays and suggest DeLay should resign, but he did tell me that he had doubts that The Hammer would finish the term in his present position.

I was talking with Tiberi as a constituent, not a reporter, but if I HAD been quoting him on the record, I'd have my story for the daily paper. He did say that the Democrats were equally guilty of shaky ethical behavior and that the legal process should go forth so DeLay's guilt or innocence could be established.

Tiberi is not the kind of guy who would lead a rebellion against DeLay, but neither is he a blind loyalist. It leads me to think that he's saying out loud what a lot of his GOP peers are saying among themselves in the House dining room.
hmmm.gif
Cube Jockey
I actually have no problems saying "I told you so", and that is why I think all of DeLay's supporters need to take a gander at this - article.

QUOTE
The ethical questions dogging House Majority Leader Tom DeLay boiled over into the west suburban 6th Congressional District race Thursday, as one Republican pledged support and another called on the Texas congressman to relinquish his leadership post.

"What I read in the paper, whether it's correct or not, just seems to be an embarrassment for the Republican Party," said former DuPage County Recorder of Deeds J.P. "Rick" Carney. "To stay in his leadership position seems arrogant to me."

But state Sen. Peter Roskam, who worked for DeLay 20 years ago, voiced support.

"Trotting out some of ... these old accusations that are two and three and four years old is a little bit tiresome," Roskam said. "I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt."


This is a Republican primary here, and instead of arguing over the issues that might be important to their constituents, they are taking pot shots at each other over whether Tom DeLay should be in office.

This is a preview of what is coming your way in 2006 kids, stay tuned.
DaffyGrl
My goodness, politicians of every stripe are scurrying around like cockroaches when the lights go on!
QUOTE
Members of Congress are rushing to amend their travel and campaign records, fearing that the controversy over House Majority Leader Tom DeLay will trigger an ethics war that will bring greater scrutiny to their own travel and official activities.
<snip>
Jan W. Baran, a Republican lobbying and campaign finance expert at Wiley, Rein & Fielding, says that in reaction to DeLay's woes, none of his clients who are members of Congress are traveling at the expense of private interests these days. WA Post

While it warms the cockles of my heart that politicians of all kinds (but especially those kind) are being put under the ethical microscope, maybe some real good will come out of this whole brouhaha. Or is that just naive, wishful thinking? innocent.gif
QUOTE
House Republican aides said yesterday for the first time that they believe they will have to reverse or modify the ethics rules that were passed on a party-line vote in January and have caused Democrats to refuse to allow the ethics committee to organize. Republican leaders had been trying to avoid a new floor vote over the rules, but aides said they now are convinced that they need to get the committee going so that Democrats cannot accuse them of squelching an investigation of DeLay. WA Post

As for poor, beleaguered Mr. DeLay sour.gif , the situation just gets deeper, dirtier, and stinkier.
QUOTE
A plane trip to London and Scotland in 2000 by beleaguered House Majority Leader Tom Delay was charged to a credit card issued to a Washington lobbyist who is the subject of a federal probe, the Washington Post reported on Sunday.
<snip>
The holder of the American Express credit card was Jack Abramoff, who at the time was employed by the lobbying firm Preston Gates & Ellis, according to the report, which cited two sources who know his credit card account number and a copy of a travel invoice. Reuters

But not to worry, because his buddy Dubya still has unwavering faith in him; Tommy's even getting a free ride on Air Force One. One can only hope that the old adage holds true: when you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

Hey, at least a lobbyist won’t be paying for first class airfare, hotel, dining, golf, etc.! laugh.gif
Hobbes
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Apr 26 2005, 09:38 AM)
But not to worry, because his buddy Dubya still has unwavering faith in him; Tommy's even getting a free ride on Air Force One. One can only hope that the old adage holds true: when you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

Hey, at least a lobbyist won’t be paying for first class airfare, hotel, dining, golf, etc.!  laugh.gif
*



Actually, isn't DeLay one who has built his political power outside of the Bush/Rove sphere? In short, I don't think they are buddies...that's part of which has put DeLay into the situation he's in, with many of those in his party not coming to his support.
BoF
QUOTE(Hobbes @ Apr 26 2005, 12:27 PM)
Actually, isn't DeLay one who has built his political power outside of the Bush/Rove sphere?  In short, I don't think they are buddies...that's part of which has put DeLay into the situation he's in, with many of those in his party not coming to his support.


Hobbes, I think you are correct. In their biography of DeLay, The Hammer: Tom DeLay, God, Money, and the Rise of the Republican Congress, Lu Dubose and Jan Reid write:

QUOTE
DeLay went from a back-bench position in the Texas House to the pinnacle of power in the U.S. House—without the blessing or backing of Bush political guru Karl Rove. page 10


I think support for DeLay is eroding. House Speaker Dennis Hastert has announced GOP majority is ready to scrap ethics committee rules that were changed to protect DeLay.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/11502669.htm

I don’t look for Bush/Rove to outwardly abandon DeLay, but I think at this point they see him as a growing liability and will be working behind the scenes for his downfall.

I liked the Doonsebury cartoon in this morning’s paper.

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html
Amlord
The expected rules changes to the House Ethics committee are a smoke screen and I doubt that Nancy Pelosi will even allow the rules to simply revert back to the way they were at the beginning of this Congress. This whole Ethics Committee thing (with a tie in the "grand jury" portion of the hearings equating to a finding of reasonable guilt) has allowed the Democrats to say that the rules were changed to help Delay. In fact, this rule is also protecting Democrat Jim McDermott from similar Ethics committee censure for allegedly leaking a private conversation to the New York Times. link

In fact, Delay would prefer an investigation at this point. There is nothing to these charges and if the Democrats would have the decency to allow an investigation (it is the Democrats that are, in fact, blocking an investigation at this point) then we could shed some light on just how bad Mr. Delay's ethics are.

The Democrats prefer to have Delay viewed as hiding behind rules created to help him, rather than facing the charges against him. The Democrats would rather have the media circus instead of the truth.
BoF
QUOTE(Amlord @ Apr 27 2005, 02:48 PM)
The expected rules changes to the House Ethics committee are a smoke screen and I doubt that Nancy Pelosi will even allow the rules to simply revert back to the way they were at the beginning of this Congress.  This whole Ethics Committee thing (with a tie in the "grand jury" portion of the hearings equating to a finding of reasonable guilt) has allowed the Democrats to say that the rules were changed to help Delay.  In fact, this rule is also protecting Democrat Jim McDermott from similar Ethics committee censure for allegedly leaking a private conversation to the New York Times. link

In fact, Delay would prefer an investigation at this point.  There is nothing to these charges and if the Democrats would have the decency to allow an investigation (it is the Democrats that are, in fact, blocking an investigation at this point) then we could shed some light on just how bad Mr. Delay's ethics are.

The Democrats prefer to have Delay viewed as hiding behind rules created to help him, rather than facing the charges against him.  The Democrats would rather have the media circus instead of the truth.
*



Amlord I totally disagree with your assessment of DeLay. On the other hand, I must admit that I enjoy watching him twist in the wind. laugh.gif In my opinion he's toast. It's just a matter when he pops out of the toaster.
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Doclotus
QUOTE(Amlord @ Apr 27 2005, 04:48 PM)
The expected rules changes to the House Ethics committee are a smoke screen and I doubt that Nancy Pelosi will even allow the rules to simply revert back to the way they were at the beginning of this Congress.  This whole Ethics Committee thing (with a tie in the "grand jury" portion of the hearings equating to a finding of reasonable guilt) has allowed the Democrats to say that the rules were changed to help Delay.  In fact, this rule is also protecting Democrat Jim McDermott from similar Ethics committee censure for allegedly leaking a private conversation to the New York Times. link

In fact, Delay would prefer an investigation at this point.  There is nothing to these charges and if the Democrats would have the decency to allow an investigation (it is the Democrats that are, in fact, blocking an investigation at this point) then we could shed some light on just how bad Mr. Delay's ethics are.

The Democrats prefer to have Delay viewed as hiding behind rules created to help him, rather than facing the charges against him.  The Democrats would rather have the media circus instead of the truth.
*


They are a smokescreen only to the effect that the Republicans have had the ethics grenade blow up in their camp. This is damage control because all of a sudden the GOP seems to be the party with "ethics issues" taint that stained the Dems following the joke of "The Contract with America". Hypocrisy, much like pork, is undoubtably a bi-partisan affair.

I can't really argue with the circus addiction theory. It worked so well for the GOP when Clinton was in office and I have no doubt the Dem leadership will milk this for all its worth. Karma is funny that way sometimes, I guess. hmmm.gif

That Doonesbury cartoon is hysterical. laugh.gif
Jaime
QUOTE(BoF @ Apr 27 2005, 04:53 PM)
Amlord I totally disagree with your assessment of DeLay. On the other hand, I must admit that I enjoy watching him twist in the wind. laugh.gif  In my opinion he's toast. It's just a matter when he pops out of the toaster.
*


Let's avoid one-liners, please.

TOPICS:
Is Tom DeLay becoming (or has he already become) a liability for the Republican party? Will the GOP steadfastly “stand by their man” or distance themselves by forcing him out as they did Trent Lott?

Should punitive actions be taken against Tom DeLay? If so, what actions are appropriate? If not, why not?

Should DeLay face charges for threatening federal judges?
English Horn
Ahh, couldn't pass this this one from The Time Magazine:

QUOTE
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes, according to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a cigar is an economic prop to a brutal totalitarian regime. Arguing against loosening sanctions against Cuba last year, DeLay warned that Fidel Castro "will take the money. Every dime that finds its way into Cuba first finds its way into Fidel Castro's blood-thirsty hands.... American consumers will get their fine cigars and their cheap sugar, but at the cost of our national honor."

DeLay has long been one of Congress' most vocal critics of what he calls Castro's "thugocracy," which is why some sharp-eyed TIME readers were surprised last week to see a photo of the Majority Leader smoking one of Cuba's best—a Hoyo de Monterrey double corona, which generally costs about $25 when purchased overseas and is not available in this country. The cigar's label clearly states that it was made in "Habana." The photo was taken in Jerusalem on July 28, 2003, during a meeting between DeLay and the Republican Jewish Coalition at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.


I just love it! mrsparkle.gif
carlitoswhey
Browing the vast right-wing conspiracy online this morning, I found an update on some of the charges related to DeLay. Apologies that I can't find any confirmation in any more neutral media sources, but the story has names and facts, including an interview with prosecutor Ronnie Earle himself.

Seems that Earle has cut a deal with some of the indicted companies, in what one could describe as a conflict of interest, directing monies into non-profits which promote his cause of limiting corporate influence in politics, in return for dropping the charges. I tend to agree with the concept of corporations funding causes instead of fines going to the general fund, but this gives the prosecutor some questionable latitude.

national review article

QUOTE
Ronnie Earle, the Texas prosecutor who has indicted associates of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay in an ongoing campaign-finance investigation, dropped felony charges against several corporations indicted in the probe in return for the corporations' agreement to make five- and six-figure contributions to one of Earle's pet causes.

A grand jury in Travis County, Texas, last September indicted eight corporations in connection with the DeLay investigation. All were charged with making illegal contributions (Texas law forbids corporate giving to political campaigns). Since then, however, Earle has agreed to dismiss charges against four of the companies — retail giant Sears, the restaurant chain Cracker Barrel, the Internet company Questerra, and the collection company Diversified Collection Services — after the companies pledged to contribute to a program designed to publicize Earle's belief that corporate involvement in politics is harmful to American democracy.

<snip>
In any event, the agreements between Earle and the corporations struck some outside observers as not only unusual but also indicative of the highly political nature of the case. "What does funding think tanks and polling organizations have to do with a violation of the criminal law?" asks former United States Attorney Joseph DiGenova, who has publicly supported DeLay. "This is an extortionate use of the indictment power." One close ally of DeLay calls it a "dollars for dismissals" scheme.

Making the situation worse, say DeLay allies, is what they believe is Earle's political motivation in pursuing DeLay. As an example, they point to Earle's attendance at a Democratic fundraiser in Dallas on May 12, in which Earle publicly discussed DeLay. For his part, Earle, an elected Democrat, has denied have any partisan purpose in the investigation. Whatever the case, Earle's dismissal of the charges against Sears, Cracker Barrel, and the other corporations has at least raised the question of whether his allegations were very strong in the first place.
PACPanzer
Is Tom DeLay becoming (or has he already become) a liability for the Republican party? Will the GOP steadfastly “stand by their man” or distance themselves by forcing him out as they did Trent Lott?

Three of Delay's aides were convicted. A duly sworn and appointed Travis County Judge ordered payments to be made to certain Democratic candidates as part of a settlement to those defeated in elections where funds were given to the Republican candidates by Delay's TRMPAC.

Should punitive actions be taken against Tom DeLay? If so, what actions are appropriate? If not, why not?

Punitive damages should be sought for the laws that were broken at the behest of Delay, Craddick and others. Merely saying "somebody else did this too" or saying "Ronnie Earle is a Democrat" does not change what Delay did nor does it have anything to do with how Earle's settlements are dispersed. That is another case for another day and may be frowned upon equally. It still doesn't change what Delay did or what his underlings have been convicted of doing.

Should DeLay face charges for threatening federal judges?

Anyone convicted of threatening a federal judge should be dealt with according to the fullest extent of the law. While Judges, even "Supremes" in Texas are as corrupt as they come and are fond of taking campaign donations from litigants who have cases pending in their courts (Priscilla Owen was a recipient of these litigant donations when she was on the Texas Court.), they should not be threatened. They should be censured. An organization called TPJ.org has been tracking gifts to Judges on a portion of their web site called Dollar Docket.

link to one of their articles: http://www.tpj.org/page_view.jsp?pageid=867&pubid=631
VDemosthenes
Okay, I can admit it. Tom DeLay is an airhead. However that does not always mean his capacity and ability to lead the Majority in the Senate is one hundred percent diminished.


QUOTE
Is Tom DeLay becoming (or has he already become) a liability for the Republican party? Will the GOP steadfastly “stand by their man” or distance themselves by forcing him out as they did Trent Lott?


I think he's a political toy. He is a long-standing liability with a death wish, what more could the Democrats hope for! DeLay became the lightening rod of hate, the "go-to guy" within the Republican party you go if you have a problem with the party in whole. He has absorbed and deflected negative sentiment from the Majority as a whole and the president himself. It is a wonderful system because now one person may take the fall instead of the entire party. Of course he is a liability- but would you force him out after all he's doing? devil.gif


QUOTE
Should DeLay face charges for threatening federal judges?


I'm not entirely sure that DeLay said anything that could actually qualify as a threat. If you are speaking of the infamous "their day will come" or something to that effect, that is a blanket statement and a generalization. If it were aimed against any one judge then some kind of action should be taken, but for making a comment of large proportions? no.

I could say "Goodness I want to blast all Democrats to the Moon." Does that entail me being thrown in prison for conspiring to oust political leaders? It is a blanket statement with no weight, and granted, when every word is analyzed by the media and political opponents it is reckless to say something even remotely along those lines. But federal charges? don't think so.

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