Full Version: Gun safety
I have a question for gun owners about gun control.
First some background:
The US has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world.
For example, the US is around 14 per 100,000 while Canada, which has a fairly liberal gun policy, is around 4.
The US has somewhere between 60 and 80 million gun owners.
They own collectively in excess of 200 million guns.
About half of US gun deaths are suicides.
Gun control legislation has not altered these statistics in a substantial way even though there have been decades of attempts and debates.
My assumptions:
Everyone (liberal, conservative, pro- or anti-gun) would like to see the number of deaths and injuries reduced.
Plans to recall guns are impractical (low compliance).
Plans to limit most gun sales would have little overall effect since there are already so many guns in circulation.
Increased enforcement of existing laws seems to be ineffective given the number of initiatives that have been tried.
Similarly, new laws on purchases or ownership would not alter the situation much either.
The question:
What do gun owners suggest as practical steps to be taken to reduce the number of gun deaths?
To enhance the flow of ideas perhaps it would be better to separate the types of misuse into four categories. Then comments can be directed to the appropriate area.
1. Criminal use of a gun.
1a. Obtained legally
1b. Obtained illegally
2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason.
3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults
I'm hoping for some creative replies not just variations on the usual policies proposed. It would seem to me that a practical proposal coming from the pro-gun segment would be more likely to be adopted than what has been voted on in the past few years.
In addition, it would have the benefit of reducing the pressure for increased gun control by the anti-gun segment if it could be shown that the new policies were effective.
Most responses tried to read some hidden agenda on my part and thus shift the discussion from policy issues to personality ones.
If you care to offer ideas, please note my assumptions that things like taking away guns or imposing politically impossible restrictions are not practical. What's needed are practical ideas not utopian ones.
First some background:
The US has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world.
For example, the US is around 14 per 100,000 while Canada, which has a fairly liberal gun policy, is around 4.
The US has somewhere between 60 and 80 million gun owners.
They own collectively in excess of 200 million guns.
About half of US gun deaths are suicides.
Gun control legislation has not altered these statistics in a substantial way even though there have been decades of attempts and debates.
My assumptions:
Everyone (liberal, conservative, pro- or anti-gun) would like to see the number of deaths and injuries reduced.
Plans to recall guns are impractical (low compliance).
Plans to limit most gun sales would have little overall effect since there are already so many guns in circulation.
Increased enforcement of existing laws seems to be ineffective given the number of initiatives that have been tried.
Similarly, new laws on purchases or ownership would not alter the situation much either.
The question:
What do gun owners suggest as practical steps to be taken to reduce the number of gun deaths?
To enhance the flow of ideas perhaps it would be better to separate the types of misuse into four categories. Then comments can be directed to the appropriate area.
1. Criminal use of a gun.
1a. Obtained legally
1b. Obtained illegally
2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason.
3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults
I'm hoping for some creative replies not just variations on the usual policies proposed. It would seem to me that a practical proposal coming from the pro-gun segment would be more likely to be adopted than what has been voted on in the past few years.
In addition, it would have the benefit of reducing the pressure for increased gun control by the anti-gun segment if it could be shown that the new policies were effective.
Most responses tried to read some hidden agenda on my part and thus shift the discussion from policy issues to personality ones.
If you care to offer ideas, please note my assumptions that things like taking away guns or imposing politically impossible restrictions are not practical. What's needed are practical ideas not utopian ones.
1. Criminal use of a gun.
1a. Obtained legally
Ban ownership of handgun for life, if caught with a gun after being banned from owning one, make that life in prison, no parole.
1b. Obtained illegally
Immediately and thoroughly investigate reports of gun theft (you'd be amazed how lightly they take the matter in South Carolina).
Lock up people under 21 found in possession of handguns for a good, long time.
2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason.
I think many states do not allow someone convicted of domestic violence to keep guns, but sometimes, since it can be a misdemenor, they can keep them, so change that where needed, and other than that, there isn't much that can be done. A woman, being weaker than a man, as a rule, is better off with gun laws that don't restrict her from owning one than laws that restrict a potentially abusive husband (who has not been convicted of such), from having one. Also, a lot of these crimes take place because the woman leaves, the police then don't take her fear seriously enough, and he comes back and kills her, just as he said he would (this can happen in reverse, with the woman being the killer and abuser, but it's rare). So to reduce all domestic violence deaths, the victims need better protection and more resources when they leave the situation.
3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide
Someone wants to kill him/herself, they'll find a way. There's nothing that could or should be done about this.
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults
Require all non-custodial care takers to inform custodial parent(s) if there is a gun in the house. Also, the handguns with trigger guards are good for younger kids.
Take children to the range, teach them to shoot, teach them what a bullet can do. I have a friend who explained his father's method of teaching gun safety: He took my friend outside, set up a watermelon, and blew it apart with a rifle. My friend never touched his Dad's guns when his Dad wasn't around, even though they were all over the place.
As for adults: In SC, to carry concealed, you take a course. I think this is a good thing, and it isn't very expensive. Accidental use is difficult to prevent, except with the course, and perhaps more emphasis on guns as last resort, not the first thing you reach for when things go bump in the night.
Teach people to always have car doors locked, house locked, if possible, bedroom locked (you can even get a deadbolt for inside rooms to give you extra time to react if you really live in fear). Teach people that, if you pull a gun, you need to use it, to avoid those who wave a gun about hoping it will scare someone off. This prevents careless display of the gun, if a person is convinced that showing it means using it, the person won't do so, as a rule, unless the situation is desperate.
Also, teach "Street Safety", in other words, teach people to be alert to their surroundings, to those behind them and beside them as well as in front of them. This might prevent an accidental startle that will cause a reaction in someone carrying a weapon. If you know someone is coming up on you, and you aren't comfortable, cross the street. If someone is approaching you whether you like it or not, tell them to stop at ten feet, flat out say, "I don't know you, I'm not comfortable with you coming closer. If you want to talk to me about something, do it from there."
1a. Obtained legally
Ban ownership of handgun for life, if caught with a gun after being banned from owning one, make that life in prison, no parole.
1b. Obtained illegally
Immediately and thoroughly investigate reports of gun theft (you'd be amazed how lightly they take the matter in South Carolina).
Lock up people under 21 found in possession of handguns for a good, long time.
2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason.
I think many states do not allow someone convicted of domestic violence to keep guns, but sometimes, since it can be a misdemenor, they can keep them, so change that where needed, and other than that, there isn't much that can be done. A woman, being weaker than a man, as a rule, is better off with gun laws that don't restrict her from owning one than laws that restrict a potentially abusive husband (who has not been convicted of such), from having one. Also, a lot of these crimes take place because the woman leaves, the police then don't take her fear seriously enough, and he comes back and kills her, just as he said he would (this can happen in reverse, with the woman being the killer and abuser, but it's rare). So to reduce all domestic violence deaths, the victims need better protection and more resources when they leave the situation.
3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide
Someone wants to kill him/herself, they'll find a way. There's nothing that could or should be done about this.
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults
Require all non-custodial care takers to inform custodial parent(s) if there is a gun in the house. Also, the handguns with trigger guards are good for younger kids.
Take children to the range, teach them to shoot, teach them what a bullet can do. I have a friend who explained his father's method of teaching gun safety: He took my friend outside, set up a watermelon, and blew it apart with a rifle. My friend never touched his Dad's guns when his Dad wasn't around, even though they were all over the place.
As for adults: In SC, to carry concealed, you take a course. I think this is a good thing, and it isn't very expensive. Accidental use is difficult to prevent, except with the course, and perhaps more emphasis on guns as last resort, not the first thing you reach for when things go bump in the night.
Teach people to always have car doors locked, house locked, if possible, bedroom locked (you can even get a deadbolt for inside rooms to give you extra time to react if you really live in fear). Teach people that, if you pull a gun, you need to use it, to avoid those who wave a gun about hoping it will scare someone off. This prevents careless display of the gun, if a person is convinced that showing it means using it, the person won't do so, as a rule, unless the situation is desperate.
Also, teach "Street Safety", in other words, teach people to be alert to their surroundings, to those behind them and beside them as well as in front of them. This might prevent an accidental startle that will cause a reaction in someone carrying a weapon. If you know someone is coming up on you, and you aren't comfortable, cross the street. If someone is approaching you whether you like it or not, tell them to stop at ten feet, flat out say, "I don't know you, I'm not comfortable with you coming closer. If you want to talk to me about something, do it from there."
1. Criminal use of a gun.
1a. Obtained legally The use of a gun in the commission of a crime should not, in itself, be a factor. If you rob someone with a knife as opposed to a gun, so what? Its still armed robbery. Same with murder, bank robbery, etc.
1b. Obtained illegally If the gun was stolen, then prosecute the criminal for possession of stolen merchandise. If you can prove that the crook stole it, then prosecute them for the theft as well.
2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason. Lotta women going to jail for this then... Again, it should make no difference whether one uses a knife, baseball bat, gun, or the favorite of hausfraus through the ages, the old frying pan, a weapon is a weapon. The should not be treated differently.
3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide Lumping suicides in with other gun deaths is morally indefensible. Suicide is wrong, use of a gun doesn't make it more so, or less so..., and it certainly can't be blamed on the gun. The inane hypocrisy when one finds many of the "death with dignity/assisted suicide" advocates lining up on the gun-control wagon is mind boggling.
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults Poopie occurs. We should have a broad based realistic education program regarding guns. Not the "ooooh, guns are bad, be veeeeewy, veeeeewy scared" pablum that gun control advocates put out, but teaching people how to use a gun. Ralou has the right idea on this...
Take children to the range, teach them to shoot, teach them what a bullet can do. I have a friend who explained his father's method of teaching gun safety: He took my friend outside, set up a watermelon, and blew it apart with a rifle. My friend never touched his Dad's guns when his Dad wasn't around, even though they were all over the place
1a. Obtained legally The use of a gun in the commission of a crime should not, in itself, be a factor. If you rob someone with a knife as opposed to a gun, so what? Its still armed robbery. Same with murder, bank robbery, etc.
1b. Obtained illegally If the gun was stolen, then prosecute the criminal for possession of stolen merchandise. If you can prove that the crook stole it, then prosecute them for the theft as well.
QUOTE
Lock up people under 21 found in possession of handguns for a good, long time.
So much for the 14th Amendment. 2. Use in domestic violence as a result of a gun being present in the home for some other reason. Lotta women going to jail for this then... Again, it should make no difference whether one uses a knife, baseball bat, gun, or the favorite of hausfraus through the ages, the old frying pan, a weapon is a weapon. The should not be treated differently.
QUOTE
with the woman being the killer and abuser, but it's rare
No, its not rare. Women are more likely to use weapons in domestic violence, and they're also more likely to initiate it (giving new meaning to the term "she started it, but I finished it), and more likely to "farm out" their violence to professionals.3. Suicide
3a. Use of a gun already in the home
3b. Purchase of a gun for express purpose of suicide Lumping suicides in with other gun deaths is morally indefensible. Suicide is wrong, use of a gun doesn't make it more so, or less so..., and it certainly can't be blamed on the gun. The inane hypocrisy when one finds many of the "death with dignity/assisted suicide" advocates lining up on the gun-control wagon is mind boggling.
4. Accidental use
4a. Children
4b. Adults Poopie occurs. We should have a broad based realistic education program regarding guns. Not the "ooooh, guns are bad, be veeeeewy, veeeeewy scared" pablum that gun control advocates put out, but teaching people how to use a gun. Ralou has the right idea on this...
Take children to the range, teach them to shoot, teach them what a bullet can do. I have a friend who explained his father's method of teaching gun safety: He took my friend outside, set up a watermelon, and blew it apart with a rifle. My friend never touched his Dad's guns when his Dad wasn't around, even though they were all over the place
This site details some programs which have been employed in Boston, Florida, and California, which have been quite effective:
http://www.guncite.com/success.htm
Boston initiated a comprehensive community-based strategy to reach at-risk youth. They enforced probation more heavily also. Boston police also met with gang members to make a zero tolerence for violence policy clear. The city also traced serial numbers to crack down on illegal gun markets who sell to youths. Finally, they had programs to keep kids off the street and encourage them to participate in society constructively.
Jacksonville, Florida did some similar stuff, but one program which looked pretty interesting to me was their diversionary program. "The program takes appropriate non-violent youth offenders out of the congested court system and puts them into diversionary programs. It is estimated that about 70% of the diverted youths do not re-offend."
Salinas, California did some of this stuff, and also increased funding for police to stop gangs and take their guns away.
Bikerdad:
I can see that you would be anti-gun-control, but surely you recognise that guns in the wrong hands are worse than the wrong hands by themselves? I mean, the use of a gun in a crime is armed robbery just like the use of a knofe, but the use of a gun makes it more likey someone is going to die. That doesn't by necessity imply gun control, but it does mean that it would be helpful to get guns out of the reaches of criminals as much as possible.
Its a similar situation with suicide. Sure, suicide is suicide, but I know of a lot of cases where people tried to committ suicide and failed. People who slit their wrists, for example, have survived and gotten over their suicidal mindframes. There is little doubt that someone who slits his wrist means to killl himself. If the person had a gun, they would be dead. Guns are simply easier to committ suicide with. Accepting this doesn't mean you accept gun control, it just means that you recognise the reality.
http://www.guncite.com/success.htm
Boston initiated a comprehensive community-based strategy to reach at-risk youth. They enforced probation more heavily also. Boston police also met with gang members to make a zero tolerence for violence policy clear. The city also traced serial numbers to crack down on illegal gun markets who sell to youths. Finally, they had programs to keep kids off the street and encourage them to participate in society constructively.
Jacksonville, Florida did some similar stuff, but one program which looked pretty interesting to me was their diversionary program. "The program takes appropriate non-violent youth offenders out of the congested court system and puts them into diversionary programs. It is estimated that about 70% of the diverted youths do not re-offend."
Salinas, California did some of this stuff, and also increased funding for police to stop gangs and take their guns away.
Bikerdad:
I can see that you would be anti-gun-control, but surely you recognise that guns in the wrong hands are worse than the wrong hands by themselves? I mean, the use of a gun in a crime is armed robbery just like the use of a knofe, but the use of a gun makes it more likey someone is going to die. That doesn't by necessity imply gun control, but it does mean that it would be helpful to get guns out of the reaches of criminals as much as possible.
Its a similar situation with suicide. Sure, suicide is suicide, but I know of a lot of cases where people tried to committ suicide and failed. People who slit their wrists, for example, have survived and gotten over their suicidal mindframes. There is little doubt that someone who slits his wrist means to killl himself. If the person had a gun, they would be dead. Guns are simply easier to committ suicide with. Accepting this doesn't mean you accept gun control, it just means that you recognise the reality.
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