Full Version: September the Eleventh...
QUOTE(Erasmussimo @ May 11 2005, 07:59 PM)
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 03:36 PM)
QUOTE
This is manifestly absurd. If their hatred is directed at the US and not Israel, then why did they ever bother attacking Israel? Surely, if they wanted to get the US, they would have attacked the US, would they not? And while it's pretty easy to imagine the cause of their hatred for Israel ("they took our land"), it's impossible to imagine the cause of their hatred for the US in the absence of US support for Israel.
Welcome to the twilight zone!
"If they wanted to get the US, they would have attacked the US, would they not?".
Well...... YES! They would. And they did. What is the topic of this thread again??? September, uh.... 10? no... uh... 11? YES!
Your logic is circular. You claim that our support of Israel had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. How do you prove this? By the fact that they attacked us on 9/11. To establish your point, you must demonstrate that in the absence of US support for Israel, the 9/11 attacks would have happened anyway. To use the 9/11 attacks themselves as the explanation for the 9/11 attacks is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.
The Islamists have been mounting attacks on Israel for more than 50 years before 9/11. To suggest that their real target during all this time was the US is absurd. If they spend 50 years attacking Israel, and we support Israel, and then they attack us, it is far more reasonable to conclude that they attack us because of our support of Israel.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 03:36 PM)
The key to "understanding the cause of hatred for the US" is not to project your own bias, your own belief system, and your own worldview onto the Islamists (i.e, "they took our land"), but to understand how they look at the world through THEIR eyes, not yours. The center of the universe that Bin Laden and his ilk live in is not defined by US, Western, or "liberal humanitarian values". They live in a different world and understanding the nature of that thought process is required in order to confront it.
If you wish to have us believe that the terrorist mindset is in some way different from our own, then you need to explain that difference in terms that explain why they would attack Israel when they really mean to hurt the US. Please proceed with that explanation.
1. The thread is about 9/11, not the past 50 years. Bin Laden wasn't in business "50 years ago". In the post Iranian revolution days, the "great satan" is seen by the Islamists as the US, not it's client, Israel. What part of that is not clear to you and should I focus on clarifying in my next post?
2. I don't think it takes much to prove that the terrorist mindset is in "some ways" different from our own. That much is self-evident. It's very much against the American and western traditions to hijack an airplane and then kill one's self (and thousands of innocents) in Jihad in order to be rewarded by dozens of virgins sent by Allah. I know that, virgins aside, this projection is beyond nearly all people in our society (even liberals).
The real question is for you. How do you reconcile your projection ("the Islamists hate Israel because they took the Palestinian's land") with the reality that both the Jordanians and Egyptians slaughtered Palestinians by the trainload when those people attempted to live in the said's countries? Those Arabs, when they weren't killing Palestinians, were killing each other in numbers rivaling genocide (Iran-Iraq war, etc.).
The reality of the situation is that the fundamentalist Islamists are focused on the US, not Israel. Not recognizing that reality will lead one down the wrong road in confronting these fanatics. I realize that wrong road has been traveled before (by Clinton, Gore, Albright, and the other misguided member of Clinton's folly patrol). But, that doesn't make it right. My point is that they see Israel and the US as one of the same. As two peas in the same pod. As blood brothers. As two sides of a coin. My point is that when they attack "Israel", they are essentially attacking the USA.
Would posting a few footnotes help you understand my point?
I think it would be prudent for some posters to review the Civil Debates, Problems and Solutions thread.
There's a lot of snide commentary in this thread, and it's unecessary. Obviously, we aren't all going to agree on every issue, but we can keep the debates civil.
There's a lot of snide commentary in this thread, and it's unecessary. Obviously, we aren't all going to agree on every issue, but we can keep the debates civil.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
1. The thread is about 9/11, not the past 50 years.
No, this thread is about the causes of 9/11, which necessarily arose before 9/11. The past 50 years are not just relevant, they are the key to resolving the issue raised in the topic.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
Bin Laden wasn't in business "50 years ago". In the post Iranian revolution days, the "great satan" is seen by the Islamists as the US, not it's client, Israel.
Actually, they refer to Israel by a variety of invectives, such as the "little Satan", the "first Satan", and a variety of other Satans.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
What part of that is not clear to you and should I focus on clarifying in my next post?
Clarification is not what is in need here; substantiation is.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
2. I don't think it takes much to prove that the terrorist mindset is in "some ways" different from our own. That much is self-evident. It's very much against the American and western traditions to hijack an airplane and then kill one's self (and thousands of innocents) in Jihad in order to be rewarded by dozens of virgins sent by Allah. I know that, virgins aside, this projection is beyond nearly all people in our society (even liberals).
You have failed to respond to my request. I asked for an explanation of the differences in thinking "in terms that explain why they would attack Israel when they really mean to hurt the US". You have not offered any explanation of how your cited differences accomplish this.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
The real question is for you. How do you reconcile your projection ("the Islamists hate Israel because they took the Palestinian's land") with the reality that both the Jordanians and Egyptians slaughtered Palestinians by the trainload when those people attempted to live in the said's countries? Those Arabs, when they weren't killing Palestinians, were killing each other in numbers rivaling genocide (Iran-Iraq war, etc.).
No reconciliation is required, as the two notions are logically independent of each other.
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
The reality of the situation is that the fundamentalist Islamists are focused on the US, not Israel.
You have yet to provide any substantiation of this assertion. Would you please proceed to provide such substantiation?
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:12 PM)
My point is that they see Israel and the US as one of the same. As two peas in the same pod. As blood brothers. As two sides of a coin. My point is that when they attack "Israel", they are essentially attacking the USA.
You are changing your wording. You first said that they did not hate the US because the US supported Israel. Now you are saying that they hate the US because the US is the same as Israel. Why is it that "supporting Israel" is not a cause for Arab hatred, but "being one with Israel" is a cause for Arab hatred?
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ May 11 2005, 05:47 PM)
So what you're suggesting is that the UN is almost completely anti-Zionist? Amazing turn of events since the UN created Israel in the first place. But, the UN has drifted quite a many light years from it's original inception in many, many areas.
I knew we couldn't trust the UN for a lot of reasons. That's just another one.
I reiterate my point, the US is the "great Satan". Israel is considered a subset of the US by the Islamists. We shouldn't throw Israel under the bus anymore than we'd throw Michigan under the bus. California on the other hand.....
No, I think you're taking my point out of context. The point of my argument was that the US has always had unwaivering support for Israel (which you claimed otherwise). One of the examples that I gave as support was that the US has consistantly voted on the side of Israel, even when pretty much the entire world voted against. Does that mean the whole world is anti-Israel? No, of course not. Does that mean the UN is anti-Israel? No.
The attack on the US has a long and sorted history while the attitude of the American religious right has added flame to the fire. I had a family member visit the middle east in the 50's his comment then was that Israelis treated the Arab community much the same way we treated the African-American community in the 50's and early 60's. Couple this with attitude we fostered in middle east with England drawing arbitrary boundaries and installing the leaders without regard to politics or the history of the ingenious people. Much the same as we have historical treated those we defined as inferiors.
This is no way an excuse for the events of 9/11. but I feel that the history of US actions has a direct bearing on this event. Couple this with the growing resentment of the Arabs about the attitudes displayed in our culture to those we either don't understand or the feelings American's display in terms of feeling superior to others and what comes about is act of violence and anger that resulted in the events of 9/11.
Could this have been avoided by listening to the complaints and by invitation of the leaders of the Arab world to UN as people who are valued and respected? It is only speculation on my part, but I do know that if you corner anyone and disrespect their point of view it is an invitation to trouble.
This is no way an excuse for the events of 9/11. but I feel that the history of US actions has a direct bearing on this event. Couple this with the growing resentment of the Arabs about the attitudes displayed in our culture to those we either don't understand or the feelings American's display in terms of feeling superior to others and what comes about is act of violence and anger that resulted in the events of 9/11.
Could this have been avoided by listening to the complaints and by invitation of the leaders of the Arab world to UN as people who are valued and respected? It is only speculation on my part, but I do know that if you corner anyone and disrespect their point of view it is an invitation to trouble.
QUOTE(Diogenes @ Jun 24 2005, 10:04 PM)
This is no way an excuse for the events of 9/11. but I feel that the history of US actions has a direct bearing on this event. Couple this with the growing resentment of the Arabs about the attitudes displayed in our culture to those we either don't understand or the feelings American's display in terms of feeling superior to others and what comes about is act of violence and anger that resulted in the events of 9/11.
Certain decisions in history end up dramatically effecting the future. The refusal to listen to the leader of Vietnam during the treaty of Versailles, the French could have prevented the problem 40 years before it started. Another example is the French humiliating Germany after World War One laying the seeds of World War Two and Europe drawing up lines in the Middle East. All of these decisions are regrettable, but they do not justify the actions of Hitler, and Bin Laden. It is also important to understand the Islamic Fundamentalism has no tolerance for religions outside of Islam. The War on Terror is actually a war between secularism and Islamic Fundamentalism.
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