4 weeks since I posted some questions and nobody seems able to respond; I was hoping some might have some answers?

Uh... as far as I know, China is agreeing to America's stance of maintaining the status quo: namely, Taiwan will be ruled, but the government on the island would not have international recognition.



Hong Kong was taken over with the "One Country, Two System" formula, with the promise to allow Hong Kong to have its separate political system, but no promise to reform the political system of the Mainland. And what about Tibet? Can you be more specific?



The unwillingness of the Taiwanese population to re-unite with China is mostly an economic one, if my memory serves me right, GDP per capita in Taiwan is about $15,000 whereas China's barely broke $1,000. Many in-person conversation with my friends and associates from Taiwan have confirmed this. In fact, the family of a good female friend of mine is from Kao-Hsiong and was very much involved in the first mayoral campaign of Frank Hsieh, a prominent figure in the Democratic Progressive Party (the pro-independence party).

REMOVED VULGAR, OFF-TOPIC COMMENTARY

Well, great to hear! Then nobody really has a reason to worry. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be like that?

I wasnt asking for promises or allowances (sanctions) - I was asking for a political culture. Or is this the answer? I would wonder to what extend the HK system is changing the perception of domestic policy in Peking and the rest of China? And to what extend it is seen as something "Chinese"?

I was expecting the case for Tibet to be obvious in this matter: If we are talking about Mainland China taking influence in the Republic of Taiwan, and Tibetian politicans and human rights activists traveling the world in order to get support for a free speech in their country, then this doesn't exactly bring more trust for Peking into the balance.

I can see money being an issue, but I bet the communist-style centrally planned Chinese culture and the political system in general are the real hurdles for Taiwanese - as you say - "unwillingness" to give up their republic.



Removed reply to removed portion of previous post.

Well, there are reasons to worry because there are people who want to change the status quo. Here's some facts:

1. The Republic of China (Taiwan) is NOT a member of the U.N., has not been since 1972 when the PRC replaced it as the legitimate representative of all of China in the U.N.. Taiwan is not a member of the U.N., that is the political status quo, but ever since Chen Shui-bien took office in Taiwan, he's been pushing for membership.

2. Ever since Chen Shui-bien took office, the Taiwanese military have become more aggressive in developing its offensive capabilities -- conducting similations of bombing runs on the Three Gorges Dam, the destruction of which can kill tens of thousands of civilians, in July of 2002; deploying the HF-2E land-attack cruise missile with a range of 1000 km ( more than 500 miles); and playing with the SARS virus, as is evident by the lab accident that occured in Dec. of 2003.

3. Chen's administration have demonstrated its will to attack Chinese civilians, as Taiwan's premier Yu Shyi-kun said in Oct. 2004.

So you can place the blame solely on China if you want. After all, one should not expect the everyone else to be fair.




China has been democratizing, albeit very slowly. Direct elections in the village and municipal levels are very widespread nowadays, if you read the State Department's Report on Human Rights, you'll see that. But seriously, Hong Kong is not really related in this debate.




Minor problem in your statement there, there is no Republic of Taiwan, only Republic of China. Semantics aside, does the simple fact of activists running around demanding something means that a government should comply. Case and point: millions of people around the world demonstrated against a war -- the war kept going on; more than a million people demonstrated for reparation for hundreds of years of slavery -- no reparation was paid; and very, very recently, millions of people demonstrated for their rights to work, the outcome is yet to be seen.

My point is just because there are activists demanding for one thing, doesn't mean a government would, or SHOULD, comply, even if it is a democratically-elected government. Now, am I saying that China has no problems? No, there are tons of problems in the Chinese system. But even if it was a democratically-elected, it wouldn't make a difference on the issue of Taiwan.



I wouldn't describe Chinese culture as centrally-planned, you would know if you have hung out in China lately or seen anything on the web done by Chinese kids. The political system, however, is very authoritarian. Now, for the issue of whether the majority of the people on the island of Taiwan would be willing to re-unite with China if China was democratic but poor, as I have stated before, after conversations with quite a few of my peers from Taiwan -- a couple of whom I have uh... "spent quality time" wih -- my answer is "no."

I don't know about Taiwans UN relations. I am not surprised, this country is developing its defences considering it has a neighbor who is openly saying it wants to swallow it.

What is "unfair" in your eyes?

We can open a separate discussion about civil rights in Mainland China (with HK playing a key role in the perception and documentation of relative improvements) - the point here is: As long as Peking isn't adapting to internationally accepted and proven ways of keeping international relations (or finally develops a capability of successfully communicating its very own ones), China will be seen as a the known doctrinarian society and continued to be treated as such.

Tibet goes onto the same account: If a nation is known for occupying and oppressing foreign countries, it will become part of the image the world has of - in this case - China: cause just like any other country or nation has its history and mark, the notorious Chinese complex of having been treated unfair seems to evolve as just one of those marks. To me it is an inability to express oneself. And No: a democratically ruled China would make a hell lot of a difference!

I have my experiences with Chinese culture, too - and it is not just Chinese tradition or Chinese Pop culture. I am talking about a grown up contemporary culture which has a relation to the world. At the heart Chinese culture is centrally-planned and Chinese men and women are still "acting" on behalf of it. Not to mention unresolved female emancipation issues, where the Western world still has to undeceive. Moreover Peking politicans are using this authoritarian culture as a mean to justify claims for Taiwan.

Well, for the gazillionth time, Taiwan is not a "country". And if you read my previous posts and do some research online, you will see that it is not defensive capability that the Chen administration is after, but offensive ones that specifically targets civilians and civilian structures.




Placing the blame solely on one side without considering the actions of the other side -- that would be what I call unfair.




Huh? How is today's China a doctrinarian society? If anything, today's Chinese society is changing faster than it ever has been.




All major powers have some blood on their hands, take the U.S. for example, there's the issues of many millions of dead native Americans, slavery, land taken from the Mexicans, the Annexation of Hawaii, and so on and so forth.

Do you ever hear the U.S. government talk about giving Arizona and California back to the Mexicans? No. Because that is not in the interest of the U.S..

Well, that is what I mean by a democratically ruled China would make a difference when it comes to Taiwan. China has a legitimate claim on that piece of real estate and even if a democratically-elected government is running China, it would not give up that claim so easily.




Uh... care to give a definition of "grown up contemporary culture which has a relation to the world"? First time I ever heard of such a thing.

And I completely disagree with your claim that Chinese culture is centrally planned. At its heart, traditional Chinese culture is people-based, fun-loving and entrepreneurial. Mencius, the famous Confucian scholar circa 300 BC, wrote in his book Mencius, "The people are the most precious, the State comes next, and the ruler is the least important." Also in Mencius is the passage "[Desires for] Food and Sex are just human nature." (which is why I like to uh... spend quality time with members of the opposite sex) And last but not the least, the traditional greeting for Chinese New Years, "Congrats on getting rich" (Gong xi fa cai) should tell you something about the Chinese attitude on making money.

As for pop culture, I would refer you to the "Super Girl" contest, China's version of American Idol, Google that and the name "Li Yuchun" and you'll see how wrong your claim of "centrally-planned culture" is. Here's one of the manylinks just in case.




Contrary to your claims, while there are issues like domestic violence, prostitution, and forced abortion, especially in rural areas, the Communists did genuinely work on gender equality. This is evident by the fact that Wu Yi, a woman, is the Vice Premier of China and the fact that the percentage of women in China's work-force is one of the highest among Asian countries. The following is directly from the U.S. Department of State's Report on Human Rights:

"The government has made gender equality a policy objective since 1949. The constitution states "women enjoy equal rights with men in all spheres of life." The Law on the Protection of Women's Rights and Interests provides for equality in ownership of property, inheritance rights, and access to education."




LOL, first time I heard such a claim, care to provide some evidence?

Edited to remove belittling comment.

We can argue about words - Taiwan has its own administration and is holding selfresponsible international relations with almost any country in the world! Those representations also have any name but "embassies" but they ARE embassies!


And so does the world as a whole! And more important: whatever changes in Chinese society are, they do not per se visibly respond or represent changes at the political, intellectual, social, spiritual or whatever elite in your country! This is also what I mean with grown up culture!




The same thing again: one children say things like this ..."I ve done this, but he also did it... " Grow up and say what you want to say!

Sorry got to go...

This is an argumentation of a child: "You have done it, so I have an excuse to do it too." Sorry, as of that reason, I have no sense to respond to this. My stance on Tibet stays the same, just as my expectations in a responsible Chinese domestic and international policy!



Don't fight it! I was telling you already about the differences in perception: if the Taiwanese people prefer a different state and a different political system they should be given all the right in the world to do so! No matter about YOUR national ambitions - it is only one side of the perception, and: National states are out, especially doctrinarian ones! I need to keep on repeating myself: an elected government in Peking would have a different attitude and would deal with all these issues soooooooo differently!



Your link to "Supergirl" surely is not it! How old are you? 18? Can you imagine there are people in this world who are older than that, have some sort of dignity for themselves and like to see, hear and read how people on this planet are like????? What I get from you is that Chinese people as a community are ignorant, superficial, acquisitive and without any democratic sense! Is that the message you want to send to the Taiwanese people? And is that the message you like to send to build trustful relations with your neighbors and the rest of world? If thats the case, I am not surprised, Taiwanese people dont want to become part of such a country and Peking is causing frictions everywhere! Normally I would suggest, you better stay out of politics, but the shame is, no politican from Peking I know, is able to respond to those issues!



Those passages from Mr. Menicus are 'wonderful' (?) ... I bet cavemen could have written that down already. Is that all?
I normally prefer to keep this out of a political discussion but you seem not to be able to let down on it. Thats why I get the impression you are putting your girls in front of something that you re not man enough to express yourself?
If this is another Chinese characteristic, I can tell you this would be another source of friction, not just with people who are not from your country but ultimately also between you and your "girls"! No offense, I dont really want to get any deeper into this and also dont want this to bias this discussion unless you finally make a point! Right now, I only see a doctrinarian and centrally planned Chinese culture!

Edited to remove response to previously removed comment.

Neither the U.S. nor Germany, nor over 85% of all governments around the world, recognize Taiwan as an independent country. In fact, more than half of the population on the island don't want to declare formal independence.




So lemme get this straight, in your opnion, only the elites are representative of a culture?




If you ever studied law, there's this thing called legal precedent. My point in my previous post is that the precedent set by the U.S. and other powers are not exactly consistent of what you are demanding from China.

Strictly from the point of international law, I don't think China's claim of sovereignty on Tibet is as strong as that on Taiwan. However, it is still stronger than the U.S.'s claim on Hawaii, Arizona, California and beyond, and the way the U.S. treated those territories does set a legal precedent.

I am dyeing my hair and have 25 minutes, so I guess I can afford to correct some of Mr. 'burger's otherwise mis-informed perceptions.



As stated before, two words -- legal precedent, or to elaborate -- we're following the example set by others.



... Since when do you represent the majority of people on the island of Taiwan now? You didn't provide any polling results or research. As I stated before and this recent TVBS poll confirms, only a minority -- 17% -- of the population on the island of Taiwan favors formal independence, the majority -- 57% -- wants to maintain the status quo. ( The dates could seem confusing, so... for those of us not familiar with the different calendars used in China, here's a crash course. The mainland, Hong Kong, and Macau uses the Christian calendar, whereas Taiwan uses the Republic of China calendar, in which the year 1911 is the first year of the calendar, which make 2006 the year 95, although people on the island generally know what year in the "Western" or "Metric" calendar is. )




... so what's the purpose of a government again? Is it not there to promote the interest of its citizens? So unless you can convince me that letting Taiwan become an independent state is going to benefit me, my family or my fellow citizens, I'm going to say "get lost" to the idea of Taiwan Independence. Not to mention the fact that the administration advocating T.I. is deploying LACMs capable of carrying NBC warhead within striking distance of my hometown and have threatened to launch missile strikes against civilian targets.




If AD ever hosts an assumption-making contest, you would probably be the champion. No, I'm not 18, and I don't feel the need to disclose my age as that is my private information.

Now back to the topic. For starters, what you said before, and I quote -- "grown up contemporary culture which has a relation to the world" -- does NOT make any sense whatsoever at all. Age, as well as social status, gender, and color of one's skin, are not limitations to what constitutes as culture or having culturally significance. So here's my question again, what kind of "grown up contemporary culture which has a relation to the world" do you have your "experience with" as you stated? The Confucian code of conduct of Loyalty, Filial Piety, Generocity and Faithfulness? Materialism? Super-natualism? Existentialism? Naked-bloggism? ( For those of us not familiar with Naked-bloggism, it's a cultural trend started by a woman in her late-20s with the pseudonum Muzi Mei, in which one puts up revealing pictures of oneself and discloses intimate details of one's sexual encounter with others on one's blog. )

And for your information, the high school cirriculum of many provinces in China include Western classics like Greek myths, Shakespearean plays, Dante's Inferno, Goethe's Faust and much more. Many of us also chose to read more, although sometimes for the wrong reason, like to impress members of the opposite gender. I, for one, read Goethe's Die Leiden des Jungen Werther because I was dating a half-German girl at the time, and my best friend read Tuesdays with Morrie to impress his girlfriend. Not to mention the Jack London fan club that existed across the hallway from us.




Well, you have the right to create a twisted reality in your mind, as John Milton once said, "The mind is its own palce. It can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heaven."

But the truth is, Chinese culture is quite diverse. As perfect as a lot of my friends think I am, I do not represent the majority of the Chinese population nor would I ever claim to be such.




For your information, Li Yuchun has quite a fan base in Taiwan as well. Like Idol winners in many other countries, her story is the success story of a girl from next door and is, therefore, inspiring to many in the Chinese community, including those on the island of Taiwan.




You started the cultural debate by claiming that Chinese culture is "doctrinarian and centrally planned" and I am merely showing you how some Chinese are living today to prove you wrong. Now do you honestly think that someone from the Ministry of Central Dotrinarian Culture Planning called me and told me who I could spend time with this past weekend?

EDITED TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE COMMENT.

edit to get rid of last part of post which in and of itself makes no sense after massive deletion was done by admins

Just a few conclusions from what I can get about this issue:
This is a tit for tat in dealing with history and politics: You should know that politics don't work like that and the earlier you distance yourself from this mind frame the better! It is 1) the quality of an immoral terrorist and 2) an aggression the world in the 21st century really doesnt need!

China is really loosing it to me as you and your country fellows are just so unable to interact with people from outside your world! Why did China in all its some 3,000 year old history never develop an ability to establish serious relations with its neighbours (Japan, Korea, Thailand, Tibet and maybe India) or at least today would develop relations independently from this tit for tat? Taiwan exposes this inability!

To me, China is the greatest threat to Democracy and Human Rights in the 21st century. A nation upon which elections are still held between peoples only representing the Communist Party, a nation upon which civil liberties are violated if not conforment to the political ideology of the Chinese administration, a nation upon which invades the soveringty of the state of Tibet, a nation upon which religious gropus are attacked and their members tortured.

The threat towards Taiwan is due in part to many reasons, primarily, I'd like to argue, is just typical Manifest Destiny in regards to Chinese ambitions. Another, is that Taiwan represents a highly advanced nation with an economy that is growing by multitudes.

China is also willing to irritate or to "butt" heads with the United States over this issue because it must. It must, as previous posters said, put the other south Asian nations into place and try to push itself as the pre-eminent power in the region, rather than the United States with the East Asian Triumvirate of Land Areas and Peoples Allied to the West (South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan).

China is controlled in its ambitions in large regards due to that. South Korea has a strong military presence, Japan's fleet is one of the elite in the world and Taiwan's efforce and self-defense forces are superb. This combined with United States military support in terms of naval power and nuclear power creates a formidable block on Chinese ambitions.

While other posters have questioned Taiwan's incresing offensive ability, it cannot be construed as that. The people of Taiwan understand logically that they hold no hope of taking mainland China or defeating them in a long-term military battle without large assistance from the Western Nations. While Taiwan is developing the ability to take down the Three Gorges, strike into the Chinese majors cities, it does this as a counter-threat to Chinese ability to invade them (which would take millions of lives, maybe, but it would be accomplished)

Now, in regards to Western World/Chinese relations, I am deeply appaled by our attitudes towards China. Instead of seeing them for what they are, we instead cuddle to them. We send them our technology, they send us their cheaply mass-produced toys. Where was the outrage over the takeover of Tibet? Where is the outrage at the human rights violations and the supression of religious movements? When will Western governments and civilization take a stand against China and state to them in an affirmative toungue: We refuse to let the current Administration rule over its people with an iron fist!

Oh, by the way, in terms of the technicality between Taiwan being a nation, in my eyes, they have an official autonomous government. While not recognized by the world, their government still exists.

Fernando Reyes