I've been thinking about this for a bit and just thought I'd throw it out there. At one time or another, we've all heard the term "tax relief" implying that taxes are something which you're burdened with (and burdens are onerous). While I'm for limited government, I do see the value in taxation as long as it's fiscally responsible. So, on that note:

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?

Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

I don't really see what paying taxes has to do with one's patriotism. I mean, you are going to pay taxes even if you are not patriotic...one way or another

Taxes are just something that is necessary for a local, city, state, and federal government to operate. Thats one of the factors of why we dumped the Articles of Confederation for the US Constitution. I really don't see how personal philosophy has a play in all this. You want roads, sidewalks, public transportation, law enforcement, firefighters, educators....how else are these people going to get paid?

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?

I’m somewhat leery of issues famed around "patriotism." I agree with leder that paying taxes does not make someone “patriotic.”

Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

I wouldn’t call not paying taxes "unpatriotic," but it’s irresponsible and if fraud can be proved—criminal. Tax-cheats get the benefit of government without sharing the burden. Thinking taxation burdensome is not irresponsible, as long the person pays--to the best of their knowledge--what they legally owe.

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?
Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

I think that taxation can be thought of as a kind of patriotism, and though I don't personally believe it is the most correct way to characterise it, I think it could be useful.

This is because the urge to see taxes as a burden, and as something to be minimised at all costs, and avoided altogether if at all possible, is something that predominantly arises on the political right. The political right also is the main part of the political spectrum that consistently places high value on patriotism.

So, by couching exhortations to willingly (and even gladly) pay taxes in a terms of partiotism, one is more likely to be pushing buttons that might actually work than if one thinks about taxation in terms of social responsibility (an idea that doesn't play quite as well with the right, especially in the context of it being a role of government).

However, my own view of taxation is more along the traditional left-wing lines of social responsibility, that taxes are the price we pay for civilisation, and that taking a dim view of taxes is akin to taking a dim view of fellow citizens generally. It's basically selfish.

In moderation, seflishness can be useful, like (say) the willingness to use force can sometimes be useful. But the fact that people tend to be selfish when left to their own devices should not be the basis of our poltical or economic system, any more than we should base our society entirely around our (similarly innate) tendency to use violence to get our own way.

I guess I've aruged myself to the point that I think taxation isn't the necessary evil - capitalism is. I can live with that.

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"? Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

Kind of. I'd characterize it as similar to paying one's house bills (I'll call that "domestic patriot" because I can't think of anything clever right now). Bills are burdensome, but not paying the bills would lead to the loss of house electricity, gas, water, phone, ect. Paying those bills is a must for any responsible "domestic patriot". No one likes to pay bills. One is no less of a patriot, or less responsible to one's family members, if one grunts about the bill size or attempts to lower them through management of house resources, disputing unusually large bills, ect. However, ultimately if the bill payer chooses not to pay the bills at all and the electricity is turned off, kids go cold (or burden the neighbor by moving in with him) and the bill payer is not acting responsibly (assuming he/she had the finances to pay said bills), therefore not acting as a "patriot".

Standing up and publicly supporting your country when you feel it's actions are right can be painful, even more so when you stand up to oppose it's actions when you feel they are wrong.

Waving a flag for hours on end can be painful, so can enduring the ridicule of others for doing so.

If your not careful, fireworks on the forth of July can be exceptionally painful.

And paying taxes, is always, terribly, painful.

So, based of the pain aspect I would say paying taxes is definitely patriotic.

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?

I tend to lean more towards Julian's idea of taxes being the social responsibility of paying for civilization. There are certain things that I value about living in a community, and I'm willing to pay for those, but I don't relate it to patriotism. I would value those very same ideals regardless of where I lived, and there are certain things that I would resent paying for regardless of where I live.

Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

No. I think that there are many people who feel patriotic towards their country who find certain things that our tax money funds to be burdensome.

As far as not paying taxes or avoiding to pay taxes is concerned, I wouldn't call it unpatriotic, but I would say that it's socially irresponsible.

Edited to fix BB Tags.

[quote=logophage,May 21 2005, 08:17 PM]

[QUOTE]Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?[/QUOTE]

To me it is, it's saying that you are stepping up to the plate and doing your part to provide services to people, as well as to pay for your own defense from other nations.

[QUOTE]Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?[/QUOTE]

I think it was Thoreau who refused to pay taxes because of what he felt was an unjust war with mexico. Some refuse to pay due to the legality of abortion or some other issue. To me, thinking it is burdensome is unpatriotic. Taxes do not put a person out on the street.

Well, given that neither the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence say one word about taxes my opinion will be quite strange. I for one agree with taxes, without aide to the government the government cannot service the individual. I'm opposed to big government but without taxes we would not have the organization we enjoy and deserve. It most certainly is part of being a fiscal patriot. Without the capital to operate the people and the government would break down and an unfavorable system of rule would come about resulting in chaos. So in this instance it is one of the most patriotic things to be doing at this or any time.





While I agree with the payment of taxes I do not think those who do not are lesser a patriot than I. If you disagree with taxes that is fine but I cannot simply dismiss the fact that the government has to have funds by which to operate in a graceful (enough) fashion. Avoiding or not paying taxes is considered a federal offense and can get you more hard-time than murder can. So all that is is proof the government does not like not getting their money. But no, objecting or not paying taxes cannot discredit someone's patriotism.

VDem

I think I agree with you on that point - that government must have money to operate and society / require government to some degree.

But could you replace taxes with another form of government income? Say that the government owned a slew of industries and had to rely on the revenue stream to operate.

Of course, there would be the obvious danger that the government would act to reduce competition in the areas where it's industries operated..but otherwise, could it work?

Alternatively, why not make taxes voluntary and tied to specific spending goals. That way, the cost of (say) a war, would be bourne only by those who believe it necessary - or those who are likely to be affected by it. Ditto for social programs.

I'm not sure I understand the premise of your questions. Not paying your taxes is breaking the law and would be wrong. It's not an issue related to patriotism.

However, the citizens have a right to demand that their taxes (i.e, their confiscated income) be spent wisely and with the maximum value. No bureacracy is "fiscally responsible" least of all a taxpayer funded one. When a large organization like the US government doesn't have to be held accountible for the money they blow, and when the ratchet for funding only goes "up" and cuts in the increased funding are declared to be "cuts", then we have a problem. This problem is inherent. It's not the result of any particular ideology.

There is value to taxation related to the services goverment provided. The problem is that there is very little value in MOST of these services when compared to the value of the services that could be provided by private companies working in a free market environment.

Isn't the inherent problem with electorates that refuse to hold government to account, rather than with the act of governing?

And I can't help but think that you paint yourself into an ideological corner by thinking of taxation as "confiscated income". Inherent in that are a whole raft of assumptions and implications - generally confiscation is a bad thing, and people are going to want their confiscated property returned to them, or the amount confiscated to move in only one direction - down.

Imagine thinking of taxation as "citizenship fees", like membership of a club. Club members are just as interested in the good governance and fiscal responsibility of their club committee (for which read government), but the concept carries none of the underlying resentment that goes hand-in-hand with the concept of "confiscation".

And members who make use of a club's facilities without paying their fees are (rightly) ostracised and resented - just like you describe the non-payment of taxes; illegality and subsequent punishment are perhaps a society's way of ostracising and resenting those who try to cheat the rules. But they do it mostly because it is wrong and unfair, and not primarily because it is illegal (would you say tax evasion were less wrong if it was legal, I wonder)?

Of course, I realise that by describing taxation in neutral or even positive terms, I am setting forth my own underlying agenda, just as you are by setting it forth in such a negative way. I just wondered if you realised it too.


Really? Your evidence for that assertion must be largely theoretical, since no government anywhere has entirely privatised all of it's functions. I'd be interested to know of any hard facts you have to back that up, rather than simple preference or theory.

To my knowledge, the closest a Western nation has come in recent years is the extensive use of private funding to provide public services that typifies the incumbent (and last Conservative) government in the UK. They have realised some new efficiencies and eliminated some old inefficiencies, but have created whole new ones (not least the way they have mortaged the cost 30 years into the future, and allowed trading of the interest in schools and hospitals to carry on unfettered). As an experiment in the structure of government, the most we can say is that the jury is out.

A tip o' the hat to Nebraska for mentioning Thoreau. Thoreau's argument was basically that paying for taxes which finance that which one does not wish to support is unprincipled. Thoreau didn't give a hoot about patriotism, but I like to think that principles are one of the things that make Americans American, thus there is a certain American version of patriotism inherent in living a principled life.

But to get back to the question, it all comes down to one's definition of patriotism. If you believe in the maxim 'my country, right or wrong', then paying taxes is definitely not patriotic. Your country demands taxes so the demand must necessarily be right. If patriotism means something along the lines of individual freedom, then paying taxes is a case-by-case issue, just as Thoreau believed it to be. "Freedom" means having choices. Paying taxes is a choice in one sense of the word, but if you refuse to pay taxes you will be incarcerated by your country.

1. No. The fact that taxes are from the government and supporting the government is patriotic doesn't mean that since you support the government by paying it money you are forced to give is patriotism. I think the main requirement of patriotism is the fact that you choose to be patriotic.

2. No. In fact, I hate taxes so much, I consider them, basically, to be "legalized stealing." And the fact that you don't support one thing that the government doesn't mean you are not a patriot. This means (maybe a bad example... ) everyone who doesn't join the Army is not a patriot, which is absurd.

Is paying taxes patriotic? Is it part of being a "fiscal patriot"?

Is not paying taxes, avoiding paying taxes or thinking taxation is "burdensome" unpatriotic?

Paying taxes has nothing to do with patriotism. It has more to do with keeping the law rather than waving the flag.

Government is supposed to be a servant of the people, not the other way around.
Some services, like the military and the fire department, are public goods that everyone should pay for. The citizens have every right to demand that the services they receive are administered efficiently. Right now that is not the case. For example, Congress often gives the military weapons that it neither needs or wants.

Julian pointed out that taxes are almost like "membership fees" to a club. There are a couple problems with that argument. First of all, you usually don't get to choose which country to live in. So in this sense, membership to America is not necessarily voluntary. Second, most private clubs would go out of business if they were as fiscally irresponsible as the politicians in Washington.